760609 - Conversation C - Los Angeles

2023-12-29T09:35:19Z

Payal:

[[Category:1976 - Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1976-06 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Conversations - USA]]
[[Category:Conversations - USA, Los Angeles]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA, Los Angeles]]
[[Category:Conversations and Lectures with Hindi Snippets]]
[[Category:Audio Files 60.01 to 90.00 Minutes]]
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[[Vanipedia:760427b - Lecture - Srila Prabhupada Speaks a Nectar Drop in Auckland|'''  <big>Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture'''</big>]]</div>


<div class="code">760609GC-LOS ANGELES - June 09, 1976 -71.21 Minutes</div>

(Garden Conversation)

<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1976/760609GC-LOS_ANGELES_mono.mp3</mp3player>

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' . . . ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'', Seventh Canto, Part Two.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You read, from very beginning.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' Introduction?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, ''kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha.''

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''śrī-prahrāda uvāca''
:''kaumāra ācaret prajño''
:''dharmān bhāgavatān iha''
:''durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma''
:''tad apy adhruvam arthadam''
:([[SB 7.6.1|SB 7.6.1]])

"Prahlāda Mahārāja said: One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of life—in other words, from the tender age of childhood—to practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements. The human body is most rarely achieved, and although temporary like other bodies, it is meaningful because in human life one can perform devotional service. Even a slight amount of sincere devotional service can give one complete perfection."

'''Prabhupāda:''' The guests, you may read aloud to them.

'''Prabhupada:''' Aiye baithiye. aap sab kidhar ke rehne wala hai. (Come, sit. Where are you all from?)

'''Indian lady:''' Abhi to Nairobi se aate hain, Kenya. (Now we are coming from Nairobi, Kenya.)

'''Prabhupada:''' Nairobi me humlog ka mandir hai. (In Nairobi we have our temple.)

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' "The whole purpose of Vedic civilization and of reading the ''Vedas'' is to attain the perfect stage of devotional service in the human form of life. According to the Vedic system, therefore, from the very beginning of life the ''brahmacārya'' system is introduced so that from one's very childhood—from the age of five years—one can practice modifying one's human activities so as to engage perfectly in devotional service. As confirmed in ''Bhagavad-gītā'', Chapter Two, verse 40, ''svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt:'' 'Even a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.' Modern civilization, not referring to the verdicts of Vedic literature, is so cruel to the members of human society that instead of teaching children to become ''brahmacārīs'', it teaches mothers to kill their children even in the womb, on the plea of curbing the increase of population. And if by chance a child is saved, he is educated only for sense gratification. Gradually, throughout the entire world, human society is losing interest in the perfection of life. Indeed, men are living like cats and dogs, spoiling the duration of their human lives by actually preparing to transmigrate again to the degraded species among the 8,400,000 forms of life. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is anxious to serve human society by teaching people to perform devotional service, which can save a human being from being degraded again to animal life. As already stated by Prahlāda Mahārāja, ''bhāgavata-dharma'' consists of:

:''śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ''
:''smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam''
:''arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ''
:''sakhyam ātma-nivedanam''
:([[SB 7.5.23-24|SB 7.5.23]])

"In all the schools, colleges and universities, and at home, all children and youths should be taught to hear about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In other words, they should be taught to hear the instructions of ''Bhagavad-gītā'', and to put them into practice in their lives, and thus to become strong in devotional service, free from fear of being degraded to animal life. Following ''bhāgavata-dharma'' has been made extremely easy in this age of Kali. The ''śāstra'' says:

:''harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam''
:''kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā''
:([[CC Adi 17.21|CC Adi 17.21]])

"One need only chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa ''mahā-mantra''. Everyone engaged in the practice of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa ''mahā-mantra'' will be completely cleansed from the core of the heart, and will be saved from the cycle of birth and death."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Go on.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' Canto Seven, Chapter Six, Text 2.

:''yathā hi puruṣasyeha''
:''viṣṇoḥ pādopasarpanam''
:''yad eṣa sarva-bhūtānāṁ''
:''priya ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt''
:([[SB 7.6.2|SB 7.6.2]])

"The human form of life affords one a chance to return home, back to Godhead. Therefore every living entity, especially in the human form of life, must engage in devotional service to the lotus feet of Lord Viṣṇu. This devotional service is natural because Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the most beloved, the master of the soul, and the well-wisher of all other living beings." Purport: "The Lord says in ''Bhagavad-gītā'', Chapter Five, verse 29:

:''bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ''
:''sarva-loka-maheśvaram''
:''suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām''
:''jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati''
:([[BG 5.29 (1972)|BG 5.29]])

" 'The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.' Simply by understanding these three facts—that the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu, is the proprietor of the entire creation, that He is the best well-wishing friend of all living entities, and that He is the supreme enjoyer of everything—one becomes peaceful and happy. For this transcendental happiness, the living entity has wandered throughout the universe in different forms of life and different planetary systems, but because he has forgotten his intimate relationship with Viṣṇu, he has merely suffered, life after life. Therefore, the educational system in the human form of life should be so perfect that one will understand his intimate relationship with God, or Viṣṇu. Every living entity has an intimate relationship with God. One should therefore glorify the Lord in the adoration of ''śānta-rasa'' or revive his eternal relationship with Viṣṇu as a servant in ''dāsya-rasa'', a friend in ''sakhya-rasa'', a parent in ''vātsalya-rasa'' or a conjugal lover in ''mādhurya-rasa''. All these relationships are on the platform of love. Viṣṇu is the center of love for everyone, and therefore the duty of everyone is to engage in the loving service of the Lord. As stated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the ''Bhāgavatam'', Third Canto, Twenty-fifth Chapter, thirty-eighth verse: ''yesām ahaṁ priya ātmā sutaś ca sakhā guruḥ suhṛdo daivam iṣṭam'': 'In any form of life, we are related with Viṣṇu, who is the most beloved, the Supersoul, son, friend and ''guru''.' Our eternal relationship with God can be revived in the human form of life, and that should be the goal of education. Indeed, that is the perfection of life and the perfection of education."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Any question about this statement? You can discuss.

Nalinikantha: This chapter is entitled, "Prahlāda Instructs His Demoniac Schoolmates." Teaching the children.

'''Prabhupāda:''' He was taking opportunity to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness during tiffin hours. When the teachers would go away—during tiffin time, of course, the teachers go away—and Prahlāda Mahārāja immediately will . . . (aside) ''Āsun''. Let him come here. He'd immediately take the opportunity of preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (greets Indian guests in Bengali) ''Āsun'', come on. (break) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness even in the classroom. All the school friends were sons of demons, means atheist class of men. So they did not know anything about God, and Prahlāda Mahārāja was taking advantage of the school tiffin hour and preaching. So his first beginning of the teaching was ''kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavtān iha'' ([[SB 7.6.1|SB 7.6.1]]): "From the beginning of life, when we are children, we should learn about Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is the beginning of his teachings. Go on.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''sukham aindriyakaṁ daitya''
:''deha-yogena dehinām''
:''sarvatra labhyate daivād''
:''yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ''
:([[SB 7.6.3|SB 7.6.3]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' Allow some Indian dress may come in.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' "My dear friends born of demoniac families, the happiness perceived with reference to the sense objects . . ."

'''Prabhupāda:''' He is addressing his friends, "Born of demoniac families, my dear friends." (laughs) Give him one chair, Dr. Wolfe. Yes, that's nice. He used to address his father also as, "The best of the demons." Once his father asked him, "My dear son, what nice lesson you have learned in the school? Please tell me." So he addressed his father, ''asura-vārya'', "the best of the ''asuras''."

:''tat sādhu manye 'sura-vārya dehināṁ''
:''sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt''
:''hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ''
:''vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta''
:([[SB 7.5.5|SB 7.5.5]])

So "My dear father . . ." Not "father"; "the best of the ''asuras''," ''asurya-vārya'', the chief ''asura''. "To my opinion," ''tat sādhu manye'', "I think, so far I have studied," ''tat sādhu manye'', "I think that is very nice, very honest profession of occupation for persons who are always full of anxieties." In the material world everyone is full of anxiety. That's a fact. Even in your country, the President Nixon, he was in full of anxiety while he was in office, and now, out of his office, he's also full of anxiety. So just see. This is the best man in your country, president, the foremost man. So if he is full of anxiety, the others naturally . . . everyone. So what is the cause of the anxiety? ''Asad-grahāt. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt''. ''Asat'' means that does not exist, "not eternal." It is just opposite. Eternal is called ''sat'', ''oṁ tat sat'', and ''asat'' means just the opposite.

So here in this material world everything is ''asat''. Even this body is ''asat''; it will not exist. And what to speak of other things with reference to the body. Everything is ''asat''. Anything material is ''asat''; it will not stay, either these trees or this land or this world or this country or this . . . anything, ''asat''. So ''asad-grahāt'', on account of accepting things which are ''asat'', not permanent, they are always full of anxiety. Just see how nicely explained, why one is full of anxiety. The reason is, he has accepted something which will not stay, endure and he has accepted, "This is all in all. My country is all in all. My family is all in all. This body, all in all." But it will not stay. That's a practical fact. But they are sticking to these things. ''Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api'' ([[SB 2.1.4|SB 2.1.4]]). There is another verse where this word is used, ''asat''. Everyone is thinking, "I am secure. I am born in a very good nation, state. My body is very strong. My family members are very nice, well educated. I have got good bank balance, and I have got respectable position," so on, so on. He is thinking, "These things will save me." This world is struggle for existence, and when there is struggle, there are some soldiers. So ''ātma-sainyeṣu asatsu api''. One is thinking that, "These are my soldiers. I'll own victory in the struggle for existence." But ''pramattaḥ tasya nidhanaṁ paśyann api na paśyati''. But he's so mad, he knows that these things will be vanquished, and still he does not see to it. ''Paśyann api na paśyati''. Therefore his anxiety.

So Prahlāda Mahārāja's, this version, ''sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt'', "On account of accepting nonpermanent things as permanent, therefore he's full of anxiety." ''Sadā samudvigna-dhiyam asad-grahāt''. Then what is the remedy? The remedy is ''hitvātmā-ghāṭaṁ gṛham andha-kūpam'': "This ''andha-kūpam'', dark well of ignorance, one must give up." Then ''vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta'' ([[SB 7.5.5|SB 7.5.5]]): "He must go to ''vana''." When one goes to ''vana'', it is called ''vānaprastha''. So after family life, according to Vedic civilization, one has to accept ''vānaprastha'' life. And when one is fully prepared, he takes sannyāsa after ''vānaprastha'' life. So ''vanaṁ gataḥ'' means one should prepare by going to the forest for the next life of renounced order of life. That is human civilization—''brahmacārī, gṛhasta, vānaprastha and sannyāsa''. ''Sannyāsa'' means fully engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ''Vanaṁ gato yad dharim āśrayeta'' ([[SB 7.5.5|SB 7.5.5]]). Otherwise, what is the use of going to the forest? In the forest there are many monkeys also. So that kind of life is not ''harim āśrayeta''. He must take shelter of the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari. That is ''oṁ tat sat''. And then he'll be happy. That is Vedic civilization. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is teaching to the boys, his class friends. He was five-years-old boy. Naturally, his friends are also of the same age, and he's teaching this ''bhāgavata-dharma''. Read that.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' "The happiness perceived with reference to the sense objects by contact with the body can be obtained in any form of life, according to one's past fruitive activities. Such happiness is automatically obtained without endeavor, just as we obtain distress."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Thank you. So here in the material world happiness means sense gratification, that's all. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said: "The happiness of sense gratification, obtainable in any form of life . . ." The birds, beast, human being or even the demigods, cats, dogs—everyone has got the happiness of sense gratification, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That is obtainable everywhere. But the spiritual happiness, that is obtainable in human form of life. Therefore the human being from childhood . . . ''kaumāra ācaret prajño dharmān bhāgavatān iha'' ([[SB 7.6.1|SB 7.6.1]]). From the very beginning of childhood. Why so early? ''Durlābhaṁ manusam janma''. This human form of life is obtained after many, many births—evolutionary process. And ''adhruvam''. There is no certainty that I shall live so many years. Although it is estimated that one is expected to live for at least hundred years—that is estimation—but at the present moment at least, nobody is living up to that.

So even there is such indication, still, there is no guarantee. We can die at any moment. ''Adhruvam'', but ''arthadam''. Although it is adhruvam—there is no guarantee—but whatever period we get, we can utilize it for the best purpose. ''Arthadam''. We can gain the ultimate goal of life, ''arthadam''. That is . . . he is giving stress. ''Arthadam'' means spiritual realization. That is ''arthadam''. Otherwise, we remain like animals. The animal has also sense gratification process: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex and how to defend. So ''sukham aindriyakaṁ daitya''. He is addressing his friends as ''daitya'', "sons of the demons." He is addressing his father as "best of the demons." (laughs) There are two classes of men: ''deva'' and ''asura''. ''Dvau bhūta-sargau loke daiva asura eva ca'' ([[BG 16.6 (1972)|BG 16.6]]). In this material world there are . . . (aside) Why not Dr. Wolfe may come here, bring his chair here? You can sit down there. You can bring your chair.

So this sense gratification is available. ''Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ yat''. These are called ''viṣaya''. ''Viṣaya'' means sense enjoyment. So ''viṣayaḥ sarvataḥ syāt''. In any form of life these four principles are there. Eating arrangement is there. (aside) Come on. Sleeping arrangement is there. The bird, he is not anxious about eating, sleeping, mating. It is already there. He has got a nest above the tree. At night he is very safe and sleeping nicely. And in the morning, he knows, somewhere there is some fruit, he'll get his food. He's not anxious. He goes anywhere. And for mating, the male and female bird are always together. The pigeons, they are having every hour, four times, five times, mating. So that arrangement is always there. And defense? They are on the ground. As soon as there is some man, immediately they go up, defense. So they know, everyone knows, how to enjoy this ''viṣaya''—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So the ''śāstra'' says, ''viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt'', "These four principles of necessities of the body are available anywhere." Either you are born as a human being or a cat or a dog or a bird or a beast or demigod, these are available.

So we should not bother about these things. The arrangement is already there. By the grace of God, things are already there. So Nārada Muni said: "Don't bother about these things." ''Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ'' ([[SB 1.5.18|SB 1.5.18]]). So we are wandering within this universe in different forms of life, in different planets, ''upary adhaḥ, upari adhaḥ'', upper planetary system, down planetary system, we are having these facilities in different standard. The demigods, they have got their different standard of life, thousands and thousands times better than ours. We have got better standard of life. Just like the Americans, they have got better standard of life than the Indians. So this high standard, lower standard, but whatever standard may be, the thing, the taste of material enjoyment, is there. Sex intercourse in the human form of life and the sex intercourse of the dog on the street, the taste is the same. Taste is not changed. You put any eatable either in the gold pot or in the iron pot: the taste is the same. Therefore ''viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt''. The taste of these sense enjoyable things are the same everywhere. Therefore he says ''sukham aindriyakaṁ yat'' . . . what is that verse?

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' ''Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm. ''Deha-yogena dehinām''. Sex means one body is being united with another body. ''Deha-yogena dehinām''. That is enjoyment. So Prahlāda Mahārāja says: "These things are available anywhere, without any endeavor. It can be available anywhere." Read it.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' ''Sarvatra labhyate''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Sarvatra labhyate''. ''Sarvatra'' mean every form of life, in every place, either in the higher planetary or lower planetary or this—everywhere, sarvatra. Hmm?

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' ''Sarvatra labhyate daivād''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm. ''Daivāt. Daivāt'' means "By the superior arrangement." Superior arrangement . . . one has become human being, one has become cat, one has become dog, one has become demigod, one has become worm of the stool, ''daiva-yogena'', by the arrangement of the supreme controller. But the material happiness is the same everywhere. Either one is worm in the stool or he is king in the heaven, the standard happiness is the same. Then?

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' ''Yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ''

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah. And these things are available without any endeavor, as we get distressed condition of life without any endeavor. There are two things in this world: distress and happiness. So we don't call for distress that, "Malaria fever come to me. I shall enjoy." Nobody says, but it comes. So similarly, this is distress. If distress comes by the superior arrangement, so happiness also will come by superior arrangement. So why should we bother about these things? Now, ''tasyaiva hetoḥ praya'' . . . therefore our endeavor should be for understanding ourself, self-realization, and our relationship with God or what is God, what is the nature. These things, ''athāto brahma jijñāsā'', this is our business, not to waste our valuable time for searching after sense gratification. It is not human civilization, and that is . . . that is demonic civilization. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja, stressing. ''Sukham aindriyakaṁ yad'' . . . read it?

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' Next one?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, this verse.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''sukham aindriyakam daityā''
:''deha-yogena dehinām''
:''sarvatra labhyate daivād''
:''yataḥ duḥkham ayatnataḥ''
:([[SB 7.6.3|SB 7.6.3]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm. Now translation and purport, read.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' We just read that. Read again?

'''Prabhupāda:''' The purport you have read?

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, then next verse.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' No, I haven't read the purport.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, purport read.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' "In the material world in any form of life there is some so-called happiness and so-called distress. No one invites distress in order to suffer, but still it comes. Similarly, even if we do not endeavor to obtain the advantages of material happiness, we shall obtain them automatically. This happiness and distress are obtainable in any form of life without endeavor. Thus there is no need to waste time and energy fighting against distress or working very hard for happiness. Our only business in the human form of life should be to revive our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and thus become qualified to return home, back to Godhead. Material happiness and distress come as soon as we accept a material body, regardless of what form. We cannot avoid such happiness and distress under any circumstances. The best use of human life, therefore, lies in reviving our relationship with the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu."

'''Prabhupāda:''' So, is there any question about this statement?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Yes. What originally caused us to lose our relationship with Lord Kṛṣṇa? I understand it is due to our desires, but how is this desire manifest?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Relationship is not lost. Just like you . . . either you are in the prison house or you are in the kingdom of the state, your relationship with government is there. It does not mean that when you are put into the prison house to suffer, it does not mean you have lost relationship, is it that?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Yes, but why are we in the prison house?

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is the cause—because you are criminal, you are put into the prison house, but the relationship continues.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' What have we done to make ourselves criminals?

'''Prabhupāda:''' What you have done, you are put into prison?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' No, but what have we done to make ourselves criminals? What criminal acts have we performed?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That you might have forgotten. Because your nature is to forget, you cannot immediately remember what you are doing exactly this time yesterday. That is your . . . you have forgotten. But suppose you, without any knowledge, you do something criminal. So you must be punished. You may not know it. You cannot say in the court that, "I did not know by committing this act I'll be punished." So you know or not know, you have done it; you must be punished. You may not know what you have done, but that does not mean you can avoid punishment.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' I understand that. It sounds reasonable to me. When we do this act for which we are punished, is it done in this life or is it done in some prior life?

'''Prabhupāda:''' This life or prior life, because you are eternal. ''Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). You are eternal.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Would the prior life have to be an animal life?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, might be.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Or could the prior life also be human life?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, not necessarily. There are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and you are one of them now. So you, as soul, you are the same; the body is changed. In the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' it is said in the Second Chapter that, "Arjuna, you, Me and all these persons who are assembled here, they existed in their previous lives, they are now existing, and they'll continue to exist." So our life is eternal. That is the first instruction in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. ''Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). This living entity, soul, is never born, neither he dies. It is simply change of body. Just like you just took this sweater. That means you are there, and you may give up the sweater again. So your body is changing like dress, but you are the same. So your . . . in previous . . . just like now we are elderly gentleman, but we were a child. That's a fact. At that time the body was different. You are a young man, the body was different. And again you'll become old man like me, your body will be different. So in this life also we are experiencing going through different types of body. Similarly, after giving up this body, I'll have another body. Where is the difficulty to understand? ''Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati''.

:''dehino 'smin yathā dehe''
:''kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā''
:''tathā dehāntara-prāptir''
:''dhīras tatra na muhyati''
:([[BG 2.13 (1972)|BG 2.13]])

So ''dehāntara-prāptir'', to accept another body, that is inevitable. Now, what kind of body you'll accept . . . you'll not accept; you'll be forced to accept, according to your work, ''karmaṇā daiva-netrena'' ([[SB 3.31.1|SB 3.31.1]]), by superior arrangement. After death, after giving up this body . . . generally, at the time of death, your mental condition will carry you to a similar body. ''Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram'' ([[BG 8.6 (1972)|BG 8.6]]). This is the general, but it is under superior arrangement. So we are changing this body continually, cycle of birth and death. That is material world. Therefore it is said that according to the body, the standard of happiness, distress is there. So that will come automatically by nature's law. Therefore there is no need of endeavoring, improving or subduing this kind of bodily comforts. That you cannot change, it is all destiny. You try for self-realization. What you are? Why you are in this body? Why you are suffering? These questions should be discussed. That is human life.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' God, of course, has put this entire human life picture together, and we, of course, cannot really understand His motives or His reasons for this. But if there was some understanding that could be imparted to us . . . is there? I ask the question, "Is there any understanding that can be imparted to us, to understand some of His motives for this?" Because it seems to me that we suffer a great deal to be able to turn towards Him, and yet in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' He says something like, "One million will seek Me, but only one out of that million will find Me."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' So your chances are very, very little, and God, of course, understands this.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, chances are very little, and chance is immediate. Ordinarily, the chance is very little, but if you accept what God says, then immediately. Just like in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' it is stated:

:''bahūnāṁ janmanām ante''
:''jñānavān māṁ prapadyate''
:''vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti''
:''sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ''
:([[BG 7.19 (1972)|BG 7.19]])

So by regular process, it will take many, many births, ''bahūnāṁ janmanām''. When he is actually ''jñānavān'', then he surrenders to God and he understands vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, "Everything is Vāsudeva." ''Sa mahātmā sudur'' . . . so if we are intelligent, we can take this verse seriously that, "Although it is very difficult to understand Vāsudeva"—it takes many, many births to understand this fact—"but if one has to come to this point, ''vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti'', why not do it immediately?" That is intelligence. So if we surrender to God immediately, the thing is very easy; it is a task of one minute only. But if you don't do that, then it is difficult. Go on, birth after birth, birth after birth.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Why . . . I understand that. It seems very acceptable in an intuitive sense, but then the mind sort of questions some of these things.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (aside) Is there water? Bring it. Hmm. Yes?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' The mind questions some of these things, and these questions kind of flow naturally, and one wonders why the structure of the universe or of the world has been made in such a fashion that it takes a great deal of misery and difficulty for us to turn towards God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Because he doesn't want to turn towards God.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Because we don't want to?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Just like God says that, "You surrender unto Me." And who is going to surrender? He says clearly, ''sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja'' ([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]]), and who is doing this? So why he'll not suffer? He must suffer.

:''daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī''
:''mama māyā duratyayā''
:''mām eva ye prapadyante''
:''māyām etāṁ taranti te''
:([[BG 7.14 (1972)|BG 7.14]])

He will not do that. He'll try to become himself God, "No, why shall I surrender to God? I am God." He is dog, he is kicked even by dog, and he's still thinking, "I am God." This is the difficulty.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' So as I understand it—tell me if I interpret it correctly—we're being put more or less into our place, being shown where we really are in relation to God through our suffering.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. God is giving you the remedy that, "You surrender to Me, you are immediately relieved from all sufferings." But we shall not do that. So what is the alternative than suffering? This is common sense.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' This is a lesson in learning through contrast, then.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' This is a lesson in learning through contrast, the contrast of suffering versus not suffering.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Suffering . . . this is only suffering. This material world is only suffering, but under illusion we are accepting suffering as enjoyment.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Is this because the illusion that we see is a representation of the spiritual world in a sense?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Illusion is another punishment. We wanted to forget God, and God's illusory energy is giving him facility to forget God. This is called illusory energy.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' In the beginning, when we were first part of God, as I understand from reading ''Bhagavad-gītā'' and some of your other translations and purports, which I enjoy very much—I thank you for making them available—I understand that our souls are also part of God, as a drop of water is part of the ocean. How . . . is there any knowledge or information of how we incurred this first separation from God?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Separation . . . generally, when we want to become God, there is separation.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' A rebellion.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You cannot . . . there is one God, and if you want to become God—you are immediately driven away, "Just become God in the material world. Go there and try to become God."

'''Dr. Wolfe:''' Prabhupāda? There is a parallel in the Bible that Lucifer broke away from God because he wanted to be God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That's it.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' I was thinking that, too.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (laughs) This rascaldom . . . this rascaldom makes him a dog. Instead of God, he becomes a dog. So this rascaldom is going on that, "I am God." For this purpose he's suffering, and still, he wants to continue it. Nobody can become God, God is one. ''Ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti''. So how we can become God? But that endeavor is going on.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' As I understand it, since God is omnipresent, omnipotent, all-knowledgeable and all-remembering, then He is in a position where He can know what our choices are going to be, and what is going to happen with us in the future.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. You make your choice, you can change it. But as soon as you change it, God knows what you are going to do. This is very common sense. Suppose you are honest man; I entrust you with something. But as soon as you become dishonest, immediately I withdraw my entrust, because I know what you'll do. So you have got little independence. You are put into certain position, but you can change it at anytime. So your position is, actually, you are eternal servant of God. As soon as you change it, then your suffering begins. (break) . . . of God. In the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' you'll find, after instructing ''Bhagavad-gītā'' to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Now I have instructed you everything. Now whatever you like, you can do." ''Yathechasi tathā kuru''. That independence you have got. Kṛṣṇa, or God, does not interfere with the little independence He has given to us. And because we are part and parcel of God, God is fully independent, so we have got little portion of independence. So by misusing that independence, we can desire to become God, and we suffer.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' Isn't it within the nature of our souls to have . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the nature, little independence. That is the nature. You can properly use independence, and you can improperly use. That is the meaning of independence, that you can use it improperly—then you suffer. That is the meaning of independence. If it is that I have got independence—I cannot use it otherwise—that is not independence.

'''Arnold Weiss:''' So that small, miniscule amount of independence that we have represents our free will in making decisions and choices towards either returning toward God or trying to go on our own way, which is the origin of our original position, being in this material world. Very interesting.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So therefore Kṛṣṇa said that, "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, Arjuna, because you are My very intimate friend, that you give up all your all nonsense plans." ''Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja'' ([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]]): "You just surrender to Me. This is the most confidential knowledge. You can misuse your independence, but I am instructing you most confidentially because you are My intimate. Don't make plans like rascals. You just surrender to Me." This is confidential. Or in other words, "Don't foolishly try to become God. You remain a servant. Surrender to Him." This is the ultimate instruction. Find out in the Eighteenth Chapter, ''sarva-guhyatamam. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru''.

'''Dānavīra:'''

:''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto''
:''mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru''
:''mām evaiśyasi satyaṁ te''
:''pratijāne priyo 'si me''
:([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' Where it is? Which chapter?

'''Dānavīra:''' Eighteenth chapter.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. There, ''sarva-guhyatamam?'' Before that, there is another verse, ''sarva-guhyatamam''.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''sarva-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ''
:''śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ''
:''iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti''
:''tato vakṣyāmi te hitam''
:([[BG 18.64 (1972)|BG 18.64]])

"Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit." Purport. "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now He is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter He has said: 'Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of ''Bhagavad-gītā.'' This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to Kṛṣṇa, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What Kṛṣṇa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then next verse.

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto''
:''mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru''
:''mām evaiśyasi satyaṁ te''
:''pratijāne priyo 'si me''
:([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]])

"Always think of Me and become My devotee . . ."

'''Prabhupāda:''' So instead of becoming devotee, he wants to become God. And that is the problem. But it is the most confidential part of knowledge. Instead of carrying out the orders of God, he wants to order God. You see? Even in the lower stage of devotion, that mentality continues that, "God is order-supplier. If God carries my order, then I accept God. Otherwise I reject Him." In Germany . . . one of my German Godbrothers, he told me in 1935 that in the last world war, many people become atheist. They went to the church and prayed, especially women, "My husband may come back," "My brother may come back," or "My father may come back." Because all men went to the war field, and the women were there, they prayed in the church. But nobody came back, and they became atheist. That means they took God as order-supplier. They ordered God, "Return my father," "Return my brother," "Return my husband," and God did not return. "Ah, there is no God. I don't care." This is going on. God is order-supplier. But our philosophy is, God is not order-supplier, we are order carrier of God. ''Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā'' ([[CC Madhya 19.167|CC Madhya 19.167]]). Just like Arjuna became. He became carrier of order of Kṛṣṇa. He did not like to fight, to kill the family members, but when he understood that Kṛṣṇa wants it, then he, "Yes." ''Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava'' ([[BG 18.73 (1972)|BG 18.73]]). Find out this verse, ''naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labhdā tvat-prasādān madhusūdanaḥ.''

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:'''

:''naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā''
:''tvāt-prasādān mayācyuta''
:''sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ''
:''kariṣye vacanaṁ tava''
:([[BG 18.73 (1972)|BG 18.73]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Tava. Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ:'' "Now I am situated in the real position, without any doubt." What is that position? ''Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava'', "I shall carry out Your order. I'll not ask You to become my order-supplier, but I shall carry out Your order." And this is perfection of ''Gītā'' knowledge. And he did it. He did not like to kill his family members, but he did it. He killed Bhismadeva. He killed his teacher, Dronācārya. He killed his nephews, brothers—everyone. ''Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava'', "You want it? All right, never mind. Even though I don't want it, I must do it." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. ''Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. Anukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śilanaṁ bhaktir uttamā'' ([[CC Madhya 19.167|CC Madhya 19.167]]). ''Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam'' (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). "I should not place any motive before God. I shall carry out the motive of God"—that is ''bhakti''. So what is that confi . . .? ''Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]).

'''Nalinīkaṇṭha:''' ''Mām evaiśyasi satyaṁ te pratijāne priyo 'si me'', "Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Now, if He is ordering to become His devotee, how can I try to become another God, competitor? This is the folly, and for this we are suffering. He asked him, "You become My devotee." And I want to become another God, competitor. And therefore we are suffering. We cannot become another God. That is not possible. But artificially you are trying. Therefore you are suffering. Anything you try artificially, you'll suffer. If you try for a thing artificially, then what is the result? Result will be suffering and disappointment. Therefore ''śāstra says, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayeteta kovidaḥ.'' Don't try for such things you have tried all through in different forms of life. You have failed. So don't try for that. But try to become servant of God. Then your life will be successful.

Because in the material world the endeavor is how to become God in different varieties: how to become president, how to become minister, how to become master, how to become very strong man, very wealthy man, very beautiful man, so on, so on, so on, up to—when everything fail—then how to become God. When everything fail, then, ultimately, "Now I shall become God." The same disease is there, how to become big, now the biggest. And that is the same disease in a different form. Therefore, Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, ''kṛṣṇa-bhakta-niṣkāma, ataeva śānta, bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī śakali 'aśānta''' ([[CC Madhya 19.149|CC Madhya 19.149]]). ''Bhukti'' means material enjoyment. ''Karmīs'' . . . just like ordinary men, they are working so hard day and night. This aeroplane is running here and there, (loud airplane passing over) day and night, carrying ''karmīs''. So this is ''bhukti''. How to enjoy this material world fully, this is called ''bhukti''.

So because they are after ''bhukti'', how there can be peace? He has to work very hard. And ''mukti'', those who are ''jñānīs'', they are trying to become one with God. So that is also very difficult. But still, there are so many ''sādhanas''. That is also . . . but the desire is there. The ''karmīs'' are desiring to enjoy material world, and the ''jñānīs'' are desiring to become the Supreme. That is also another desire. So ''bhukti mukti siddhi''. Yogīs, they are trying to achieve some mystic power. If you attain some mystic power, without aeroplane if you can fly . . . the yogīs can do that. Or if you can walk on the water . . . the yogīs can do it. This is called ''laghimā-siddhi'', to become light, very light. So that . . . by ''yoga'' practice you can do that. So ''animā, laghimā, siddhi, prāpti, mahimā''—there are so many siddhis. So ''siddhi-kāmī'', they are also desiring something. And the ''jñānīs'', they are also desiring something, and ''karmīs'', they are also desiring something. The ''bhakta'', he does not desire anything. Therefore peacefulness is for him, because he does not desire anything. He does not ask God anything. That is ''śūnyam''. ''Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam'' (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11)—no motive. That, "I am becoming a devotee for this purpose"—no, that is not pure devotee. "I am eternal servant of God, so it is my duty to serve Him, that's all." That is peace. And so long he'll desire, then he'll not have any peace. That is not possible.

'''Indian Lady:'''''' This ''siddhis'', do they harm sometimes humanity with their ''siddhis'' also?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?

'''Indian Lady:'''''' With the ''siddhis'' . . . who has attained all these ''siddhis'', all these powers, do they harm humanity sometimes?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Anything without devotion to the Lord is harmful to the humanity. Anything, either ''karmī'' or ''jñānī'' or ''siddhi'', it is all harmful, because all these things will keep him aloof from God. His mission is that he is separated from God. His mission should be how to go back to home, back to Godhead. So all these things—''bhukti, mukti, siddhi''—will keep him aloof from God. Therefore it is harmful. It will not allow him to go nearer to God, and that is harmful. That is greatest harm. Being aloof from God, he's suffering. So these ''bhukti, mukti, siddhi'' will keep him aloof from God. He'll falsely think that, "I am God." Yogīs, if they can show some mystic yogic power, then naturally foolish people will think him that, "Oh, here is God." And he's satisfied with that. He's not God, but foolish people will adore him as God, and he's satisfied. That means he keeps himself aloof from God. After this mystic power is gone, then he is no more valuable. So anything which keeps one aloof from God, that is harmful.

'''Indian Lady:'''''' But if they misuse these mystic powers, then they cannot stay as a mystic.

'''Prabhupāda:''' And why he's after mystic power? What is the use of mystic power. Suppose if you have got this mystic power—you can walk over the water—so what benefit you'll get? There is a boat also. It can walk on the river or on the ocean. Does it mean his all questions are solved? Suppose you can walk over the water. So I cannot walk. I take a boat and pay him four annas. So what is the difference between you and me? It is a question of four ''annas'', that's all. (laughter) So why do you endeavor for this rascaldom, and make some jugglery to the foolish people? If you have to walk over the water, you can pay four annas to the boatman and can do it. Why for this so many mystic power?

'''Baradrāj:''' ''Kaitava''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Huh?

'''Baradrāj:''' This is all ''kaitava-dharma''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (laughs) Yes, ''kaitava''. You do not get any more benefit. After practicing ''yoga'' for ten years, twenty years, if you learn this art how to walk over water, so you can show the magic to the foolish man. But intelligent man will say: "It is a question of four ''annas''. I can walk. That's all. Why shall I waste my time, twenty years, for learning this art?"

'''Indian Lady:'''''' Sometimes these mystic powers, they use on human beings . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is one of the mystic power which amaze people, foolish people.

'''Indian Lady:'''''' But they can use on human beings also . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' What human being?

'''Indian Lady:'''''' In their life or . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, suppose human being learns how to walk over water. Is that the solution of all problems? So what is the benefit to the human being? Suppose you have this mystic yogic power, you can walk over the water, and you teach the whole human society how to walk over the water. (laughter) What is the benefit there?

'''Indian Lady:'''''' But for some creation of something or so many things they show you . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That means you have no clear idea, "Something, something." Actually there is no benefit. You do not know what is benefit.

'''Indian Lady:'''''' Can anybody create anything with this mystic power, any idol of God or any idol of devotee or anything, and then turn them to . . . it's just a good mission to turn them to God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that mission?

'''Indian Lady:'''''' Well, er . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Practically come to the . . . suppose if you learn how to walk, or how to fly in the air. Nowadays they are flying, the big, big airplane flying. They have not learned this mystic power. By machine they are doing that. Suppose if you fly by mystic power from here, Los Angeles, to Bombay or Nairobi, and another man flies over by the plane. Then where is the difference? It is a question of pound or dollars. So what benefit do we get? Why do you give so much importance, who is flying or walking on the water? Better utilize the time how to realize God. ''Śrama eva hi kevalam'' ([[SB 1.2.8|SB 1.2.8]]). This is called in the ''śāstra'', that anything you do, if it does not awaken your God consciousness, then it is ''śrama eva hi kevalam''. It is simply working for nothing, waste of time. ''Śrama eva hi kevalam''. (aside) Hmm, give him some ''prasāda''. And others, what about? No, you can take this . . . ''prasāda''. Others, give them also . . . (indistinct) . . .

:''dharmaḥ svanusthitaḥ puṁsāṁ''
:''viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ''
:''notpādayed yadi ratiṁ''
:''śrama eva hi kevalam''
:([[SB 1.2.8|SB 1.2.8]])

If we do not awaken our God consciousness, anything you do, that is all waste of time. That is wanted in the human form of life, to revive our God consciousness. That is the most important business. So, any other question?

'''Arnold Weiss:''' I do, but I can't take all your evening. It would be unfair of me if I did, but I have a lot of questions.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So we shall also go. Distribute this ''prasādam'' to everyone.

'''Devotees:''' ''Jaya'', Prabhupāda. (break)

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you cannot do anything, you can ask anybody, "Become a devotee of God." Three words, "Just become a devotee of God." Anyone can, even a child can do. It is so easy. ''Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati'' ([[BG 18.68 (1972)|BG 18.68]]). Kṛṣṇa says that, "Anyone who preaches this gospel, he is the dearmost person to Me." So what is that gospel? Kṛṣṇa says, ''sarva-dharmān partiyajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja:'' "You just surrender unto Me." So if we go to every home, every person, and say "Just you surrender to God, Kṛṣṇa," that is our preaching.

'''Devotees:''' ''Jaya'', Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)

760903 - Conversation A - Vrndavana

2023-12-29T09:28:52Z

Payal:

2023-12-29T07:59:20Z

Payal:

760707 - Conversation C - Washington D.C.

2023-12-24T00:26:52Z

Payal:

[[Category:1976 - Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1976-07 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Conversations - USA]]
[[Category:Conversations - USA, Washington D.C.]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - USA, Washington D.C.]]
[[Category:Conversations and Lectures with Hindi Snippets]]
[[Category:Audio Files 90.01 Minutes or More]]
<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Conversations - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Conversations - by Date|Conversations by Date]], [[:Category:1976 - Conversations|1976]]'''</div>
{{RandomImage}}


<div class="center">
[[Vanipedia:760427b - Lecture - Srila Prabhupada Speaks a Nectar Drop in Auckland|'''  <big>Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture'''</big>]]</div>


<div class="code">760707ED-WASHINGTON DC - July 07, 1976 - 94:12 Minutes</div>

<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1976/760707ED-WASHINGTON_DC_mono.mp3</mp3player>

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' These are the Flemings, Prabhupāda. You are a professor?

'''Professor Flemings:''' Well, I'm retired.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Retired professor? From what school?

'''Professor Flemings:''' University of Maryland.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' The University of Maryland. What was your subject?

'''Professor Flemings:''' Modern poetry and theater.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Oh, very nice, very nice. This is . . . ah, you are a physicist?

'''Carl Werntz:''' That's correct.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' And your name is?

'''Carl Warentz:''' Carl Werntz.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Carl Werntz, Prabhupāda. He's from Catholic University, physicist.

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you are uncomfortable, you can sit on this cot.

'''Carl Werntz:''' No, that's okay, I'll sit like this.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You are welcome to sit down here.

'''Hari-śauri:''' (background discussion as sitting places arranged) If you want to sit, you can sit on the couch.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' This is Eugene Thoreau, Prabhupāda. He's an attorney in Washington, D.C. He's helped us very much opening up ''saṅkīrtana'' places. Very good.

'''Vipina:''' And Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is a professor from Catholic University, a physicist.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' I told him already.

'''Vipina:''' Oh, did you?

'''Hari-śauri:''' Bring some chairs in. Bring one or two chairs. We'll just bring you a chair.

'''Carl Werntz:''' Oh, I can sit here, unless you'd rather have me on a chair.

'''Hari-śauri:''' No, whatever you want. Whatever's comfortable.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm. So how do you like our movement, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' He said how do you like our movement?

'''Guest (1):''' Well, for myself I know nothing about it, that's why I'm here.

'''Guest (2):''' I like it. I've seen some very good people go into it, and I like it.

'''Woman guest:''' I've known two people who went into it, and I was at a meeting when you were on Q Street. And I've always liked it.

Eugene Thoreau: I have found it strangely appealing. I met it by accident at an airport, and one of the devotees gave me a flower, and I was struck by it. So I happen to be a lawyer, and I offered my services, and I got a call just a few days after that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (aside) Open the fan.

'''Carl Werntz:''' I find it interesting.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Would you like this fan on, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Should we turn this on for you?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

(pause)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Āap? (You?)

'''Dr. Sharma:''' I'm professor at Berkeley, California.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Berkeley. Berkley me kahan rehte hain? (Where do you stay in Berkley?)

'''Dr. Sharma:''' And I was Regents Professor at UCLA, University of California, Los Angeles.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ācchā. Los Angeles mein hamara mandir hai. (Okay. In Los Angeles we have got our temple.) You sometimes go to our temple?

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Yes, I go to the temple in Berkeley. I was at Berkeley about a week ago. I'm in London now, at the Royal Institute of Chemistry. I was born in Haridwar.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Haridwar. (laughs) Bhagavān ka desh ka hi hai. (You are from Lord's country then.) Hari, Hari means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and ''dvāra'' means the door, the doorway to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is a place in India, Haridwar, people go there for pilgrimage, very famous place.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' I grew up with ''yogīs'' and ''sannyāsīs'' in Rishikesh. My father is a recluse.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, your father is also recluse.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Recluse. And I must tell an incident which, although I was growing up with meditation, I find the ''bhakti-yoga'', the chanting, really fulfilling and actually making the difference. Actually making the difference. In one case, it is abstract philosophy, which is the ''rāja-yoga'', other ''yogas'', philosophies, and this actually makes the person transformed. Another incident occurred yesterday, when I was meditating, and I wanted to ask about five different ''ślokas'' of ''Gītā'', out of which, surprisingly, you discussed four. (laughter) This was most astounding to me.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Which one?

'''Dr. Sharma:'''

:''yadā yadā hi dharmasya''
:''glānir bhavati bhārata''
:''abhyutthānam adharmasya''
:''tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham''
:([[BG 4.7 (1972)|BG 4.7]])

That was one. ''Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja'' ([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]]). I'd like you to discuss two more: ''karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana''. If you could please kindly . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is explained in ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'':

:''ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā''
:''varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ''
:''svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya''
:''saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam''
:([[SB 1.2.13|SB 1.2.13]])

Everyone is engaged in his occupational duties. Everyone is engaged. Generally, according to Vedic civilization, the society is divided into eight divisions. ''Varṇāśrama-dharma'' it is called—four ''varṇas'' and four ''āśramas''. Materially, four varṇas: ''brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra''. And spiritually, ''brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha'' and ''sannyāsa''. These eight divisions. So according to these eight divisions, everyone has an occupational duty. So what is the duty, and how the duty is perfected? That is ''hari-toṣaṇam:'' to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That people do not know. Especially at the present moment, they do not know who is Hari and they do not know how to please Him. That is the defect of the modern civilization, that they do not care to know who is God and how to satisfy Him. That is the defect. The life is meant for, human life, for satisfying God. That is going on under religious system, and the Vedic civilization is called ''varṇāśrama-dharma''. ''Dharma'' is not a kind of faith, religion is not a kind of faith, but it is a duty, ''varṇāśrama-dharma''. So that duty we are forgetting, and therefore we are coming to the level of animals. Because the cats and dogs, they have no duty—animal. But human being has an obligation, a duty, to understand God and to satisfy Him. That is human life. Without this knowledge, without this performance of duty, human life is on the level of animal. There are many other verses in this connection. (aside) Where are others? They are not present here?

'''Hari-śauri:''' Svarūpa Dāmodara?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa also.

'''Hari-śauri:''' I can find them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the defect of modern civilization, that they do not care to know what is God and what is our duty. That is lacking.

'''Dr. Sharma:'''

:''yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ''
:''tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī . . .''
:''yasyāṁ jāgrati saṁyamī''
:([[BG 2.69 (1972)|BG 2.69]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' So we are trying to enlighten . . .

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' This gentleman is from the embassy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The ambassador couldn't come personally but sent his representative.

'''Vipina:''' The minister of political affairs at the embassy, Venkateshvara.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Venkateshvara? So by evolutionary process we come to this human form of life. It is a chance to understand the value of life, to understand God and our relationship with God, and if we are missing this opportunity, that's a great loss. Then you again become in another form of life. That is sure. As it is stated in the ''Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ'' ([[BG 2.13 (1972)|BG 2.13]]). We have to change this body, and if we are not prepared what kind of body we are going to get next life, then we remain like animals. The animal does not know. And human life, if you are missing this important point that, "I am going to change this body, and what kind of body I'm going to get?" if I do not know, then what is the difference between me and the animal?

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Perhaps you can comment on the fact that in the Movement, apart from the Kṛṣṇa people, not only the ''sannyāsīs'', but also the common working man, his ''karma is karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana'' ([[BG 2.47 (1972)|BG 2.47]]). He also . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is ''karma''. ''Karma'' means according to that division, that ''brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra'' and ''brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha'' and ''sannyāsa''. ''Karma'' means activity. There must be some prescribed activity. Just like you are professor, you have got your prescribed activities. He's the minister of ambassadors, he has got prescribed activity. So everyone has got prescribed activities in whatever position he is, but what is the standard of success, that I have done my duties, prescribed duties, properly? What is that standard? The standard is given in the ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam'' ([[SB 1.2.13|SB 1.2.13]]): whether you have satisfied the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your duty. Then it is success.

'''Professor Flemings:''' How do you know if you have satisfied God?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is the intelligent question. If you do not know who is Supreme Personality of Godhead and how He is satisfied, then you are lacking knowledge. That is being instructed in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. God Himself is instructing how you can satisfy Him. ''Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]). It is not very difficult. Anyone can do it, "Just always think of Me," God says, Kṛṣṇa says: "Always think of Me." Just as we think of our friend, of our master, of our beloved, similarly we can think of God also. There is no difficulty. But if you have no knowledge about God, how you can think of God? That is the defect. So the . . . how God is satisfied, that is there, but if you do not do it . . . that is our business, ''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]). Four things. God says that, "You always think of Me, you become My devotee, you just offer Me obeisances, just worship Me." Four things. Anyone can do it. It is not difficult.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' You are so very kind you have given us the temple, and these devotees are such, I mean, saints.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, it is for this purpose. People may come, see God, then he can think of God. There is no difficulty. If you see something, you think of it. That is ''man-manā bhava''. And if you regularly do it, then you become a devotee. ''Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī''. And when you come to the temple you worship Him. ''Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam'' ([[BG 9.26 (1972)|BG 9.26]]). Worshiping means give and take. Take blessings and offer little fruit or little flower, ''patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam''. And if you cannot do anything, just offer your obeisances. Very simple thing. Even the child can perform it. But they will not do it. ''Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhā prapadyante narādhamāḥ'' ([[BG 7.15 (1972)|BG 7.15]]). Why does he not do it? That is explained. Because unless one is sinful, ''duṣkṛtina'' . . . he has got merit, but he's utilizing his merit for sinful activities. Kṛti, kṛti means meritorious, but ''duṣkṛti'', he has got merit, intelligence, but he's utilizing merit and intelligence for sinful activity. Therefore ''duṣkṛtina''. ''Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ''. ''Mūḍha'' means rascal. He knows everything except God. ''Narādhama'', the lowest of the mankind. The human life is meant for this purpose, to understand God. But he does not. Therefore we say ''narādhama'', lowest of the . . . "But he is very educated." ''Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna''. He is so-called educated. Actually, he is not educated, because he does not know what is God. ''Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ''. The basic principle is atheistic attitude. So this class of men will never offer obeisances or surrender to God.

:''na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ''
:''prapadyante narādhamāḥ''
:''māyayāpahṛta-jñānā''
:''āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ''
:([[BG 7.15 (1972)|BG 7.15]])

So asuric life is very dangerous, and it is punishable. This is the position. So we should not become asuric. With all material opulences, just like in the ''Rāmāyaṇa'', Rāvaṇa was called ''asura''. He was materially very advanced. He made his capital made of gold, he was so advanced materially. But he did not care for Rāma, therefore he is called ''asura'', rākṣasa. He was son of a brāhmaṇa, but he did not care for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He was learned scholar, materially very intelligent, there was aeroplane, everything, but he did not care for Rāma, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore he is described as ''asura''. So ''asuras'' are divided into four classes—''duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama'' and ''māyayāpahṛta-jñāna''.

(long pause)

'''Devotee (1):''' Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching activities we see that, of course, in Kali-yuga more and more individuals are turning away from Kṛṣṇa, or God, and thinking that God is dead, they don't need to do any type of activities for Him. Then how can we explain to these people that they are missing the entire point of life, and simply . . .? In other words, they don't even want to hear. They simply don't want to hear anything. God is dead, and they think that they are enjoying, and it's very difficult sometimes to explain to these people that actually they are not enjoying at all.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are ''mūḍhas'', that is already explained. If you cannot convince them, then avoid them. What can be done? Instead of wasting time, you better avoid them. ''Upekṣā''. Useless. Because godless person means ''duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ narādhamāḥ''. So it is the duty of the preacher to enlighten them also, to take some risk. But if one is unable to take risk, he may avoid them.

'''Devotee (1):''' When we go to universities, so often we run into very educated people, so-called educated people. Of course, they see us, they think that we are simply sentimentalists, that actually we are not . . . don't really have knowledge of the universe. I've explained to these people, it's not necessarily that they are sinful so much as they are just miseducated.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, educated means they have knowledge, but real knowledge is taken away. He does not know God. Just like a man is rich, but he has no food. It is like that. ''Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna''. Therefore his knowledge is misused, ''duṣkṛtina''. This knowledge, without any sense of God . . . (guests entering) Yes, come in. Sit down.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' This is '''Mr. Davis''', Mr. and Mrs. Davis, Prabhupāda. Their daughter is a devotee here, very good devotee.

'''Hari-śauri:''' There's a chair if you'd like to sit in the chair. We can bring one more. Bring another chair.

'''Vipina:''' Used to be a senator.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Perfection of knowledge means to understand God. That is perfection of knowledge. Otherwise, it is imperfect knowledge. Therefore it is called ''Vedānta. Veda'' means knowledge.

'''Hari-śauri:''' Who is this?

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' This is Bill Sauer. He wrote this book, ''The Fourth Kingdom''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Fourth kingdom? What is the idea?

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' The idea is that the goal of life should be to . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' Survival of life. To put people on other planets.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Put people on other planets, so that the race can survive.

'''Bill Sauer:''' So that all of life can survive.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' So that all life can survive.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is stated in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'':

:''yānti deva-vratā devān''
:''pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ''
:''bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni''
:''mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām''
:([[BG 9.25 (1972)|BG 9.25]])

If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, ''deva—yānti deva-vratā devān''—and you can go to other planets—Pitṛloka, or you can remain here as you like and you can go to the planet where God is there. ''Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām''. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body. That is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body—''janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi'' ([[BG 13.8-12 (1972)|BG 13.9]])—and we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourself for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles: ''janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi''. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things—no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. ''Mūḍha, janmani janmani'' ([[BG 16.20 (1972)|BG 16.20]]), life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Bill's idea is that we should go by spaceship, right?

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, in the natural world and in the cosmos, nothing is stable. Life only survives all the things that can cause it to perish by mobility, by moving. A coconut tree on one island drops its seeds in the ocean to float for thousands of miles to wash up on another shore, so that if that island is destroyed it will have life on another island. The seed blossom of a plant is the way the plant survives. It sends its seeds off to other meadows to assure its survival. The premise here is that humanity arrived in nature very recently. We are part of nature, but we arrived very recently to give life on earth the same mobility, the same chance to survive. Among the hundreds of other planets in the universe, as a dandelion does in seeding other meadows, as a coconut palm does in surviving on other islands—the coconut palm does not know that there are other islands, but yet it launches its seeds to the unknown currents of the ocean—I believe it is our duty to launch our seeds, our space arks, launch those seeds to the unknown gravitational currents of the stars and find the hundreds of other planets that are out there, so that there cannot be enough cosmic disasters to cause life to perish. And it was meeting two or three of your people at the airport, and I asked them about—at the Washington National Airport; I think it was Meena and Mary Davis and Sarvabhauma, I believe—and I said, "What about your philosophy?" He said: "We talk about living on other planets." Boy, (laughs) right away I got very interested. And I believe people have had visions on life to other planets because I believe that's our destiny, and that is our reason for existence in nature. I've been interested in the Kṛṣṇa movement. You'll say why? I'm a materialistic type, why am I here? (laughs) You have an interesting philosophy that . . . you see, not all of us can be building space arks, not all of us can leave the earth, and we should not be using up all our material resources, destroying all other life unnecessarily. And I think we have to adopt a lifestyle that is a little simpler, that we would enjoy life on this earth, where most of us have to stay, with lesser material requirements. Secondly, I believe we are going to have to have a different type of society on a space ark if we're going to have maybe a hundred years to two hundreds years going to another star. The traditional societies that we are familiar with may not be able to survive the social pressures. Maybe this type of an environment—is this communal, would you say?—I think it's going to have to be some type of communal environment to survive this kind of a trip. So this is my interest in the Kṛṣṇa movement. I think they seem to have the visions of going to other planets, which I think is our only reason for existence.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is, I was discussing, ''yānti deva-vratā devān'' ([[BG 9.25 (1972)|BG 9.25]]). You can go to the higher planetary system where the devas, the demigods, live. Their duration of life is very, very big. Our six months is equal to one day there. Such ten thousands of years they live. But they die. It is not permanent. But the duration of life is very big, the standard of life is very high. These are the advantages. But there is death, old age, disease. Birth, death, old age and disease. But if you transfer yourself in the spiritual kingdom, then ''tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti'' ([[BG 4.9 (1972)|BG 4.9]]), then you don't get any more material birth. That is because we are eternal, we living entities. We do not die. ''Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). After giving up this body we do not die actually, we accept another body.

'''Bill Sauer:''' I believe the spirit of life lives on totally in this marvelous planet earth, but I feel the spirit has to be carried and nurtured and improved in the body. So I feel we have to carry the bodies, the material bodies, to the other planets to allow the spiritualism to live there also.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is in the material world. If you want to stay in the material world, then you change the material body just suitable for a particular place, atmosphere. But we have got our spiritual body. That spiritual body, without any material covering, you can transfer to the spiritual world.

'''Bill Sauer:''' You believe you can transmit that to other planets?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. We have to transfer, because we are giving up this body. So you must accept another body. So either in this planet or in other planets or as human being or less than human being . . . there are 8,400,000 types of body. You have to accept one of them, according to your ''karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye'' ([[SB 3.31.1|SB 3.31.1]]). How the next body is developed, that is depending on our work. If we work like demigod, then we go and get the body of demigod. And if we work like dog, then we get the body of the dog. Nature's. ''Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu'' ([[BG 13.22 (1972)|BG 13.22]]). According to activity and association of the modes of material nature, we get up and down, different varieties of body. Some of them are low grade, some of them are high grade. That depends on our association with the modes of nature. Nature's work is going on. Just like if we contaminate some particular germs of disease, that disease will develop and we have to suffer. Similarly, by our contamination or association with the guṇa, qualities of nature . . . there are three qualities: goodness, passion and ignorance. So we have to know how to associate. So if we associate with the goodness, then we are elevated to the higher planetary system, deva. And if we associate with passion, then in the middle, just like human being. And if we associate with ignorance, then go down like animals, trees, plants, like that.

'''Bill Sauer:''' How is the spirit held in the system till it finds a new body?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Body, that I have explained, that you are associating with some modes of material nature. So according to that association, you'll get next body. Just like, I have already explained.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Is that immediately after one dies you transfer to another body, or later?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, body is changing every moment.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Every moment.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Every moment. That is the beginning of ''Bhagavad-gītā'' lesson.

:''dehino 'smin yathā dehe''
:''kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā''
:''tathā dehāntara-prāptir''
:''dhīras tatra na muhyati''
:([[BG 2.13 (1972)|BG 2.13]])

Every body . . . just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, boy is changing his body to youthhood, ''kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā'', the young man is becoming old man. Similarly, when the body is no more endurable, then you get another body. ''Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). This body being destroyed, we are not destroyed. We living entities, we are ''nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam''. We are eternal. The proof is given that the child is growing, getting the boy's body. That means the living entity is there, he has changed body. When a child is grown to become a boy, the father, mother do not think that, "My child is no more existing." He knows, "My child is existing, but in a different body." This is common sense. So we shall exist. We existed in the past, we are existing now and we shall exist in the future, but different body. (break)

'''Bill Sauer:''' . . . in thesis that we . . . nature tolerates us. We are part of the tree of life, this is the tree of the animal kingdom. And since there is no way that the animal or plant can escape this planet in the body form, but we are here to support this new tree, the tree of technology, the tree of the fourth kingdom, which started out as the animals lived very simply and became more complex until we finally developed a means to launch the seeds of our civilization from this planet to others. We are a special creature who has been given special brain power, special power, which we have abused many times, by the way. But special power in order to create space arks to take not just humanity, but really an ark of the totality of life, to another planet, to, hopefully, hundreds of planets. Because sooner or later this planet will be destroyed by the sun. And the sun . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Other planets also will be destroyed.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Pardon?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Other planets also will be destroyed.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Other planets? There couldn't be enough cosmic disasters to destroy a hundred planets at once.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate'' ([[BG 8.19 (1972)|BG 8.19]]).

'''Bill Sauer:''' Our star will eventually turn into a red giant, will incinerate this earth. Other stars, the astrologers have found, or astronomers, excuse me . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' You find out that verse? (Bill laughs) ''Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ'' ([[BG 8.20 (1972)|BG 8.20]]).

'''Bill Sauer:''' The . . . many stars out in this galaxy are far less stable than our star. Our star has been stable now for five billion years. Many stars are not stable that long, and we're kind of living on borrowed time.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (to Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa) Yes.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:'''

:''paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo''
:'' 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ''
:''yaḥ sa sarveṣu bhūteṣu''
:''naśyatsu na vinaśyati''
:([[BG 8.20 (1972)|BG 8.20]])

Translation: "Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." You want this verse also? ''Bhutva bhava sa evayam''?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, I could interpret that in another way, not having any background—you'll have to excuse my ignorance—that we are the tool of eternity. We are, through our technical capabilities, the ability to spread life so far among so many billions of stars that there will be eternal life, there will be eternal spirituality.

'''Prabhupāda:''' But there is eternal life.

'''Bill Sauer:''' But when this planet sits for a billion years at a thousand degrees Fahrenheit, what we know as life will be destroyed.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Anything within this material world will be all destroyed. But there is another nature, that is being described. ''Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ'' ([[BG 8.20 (1972)|BG 8.20]]).

'''Bill Sauer:''' But the spirit is manufactured in the body, is it not, sir?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, spirit is, but there is a spiritual world also, where you don't require this material body, you remain in your spiritual body.

'''Bill Sauer:''' But if there is no bodies left, they are all burned up, there's no spiritual development.

'''Prabhupāda:''' (laughs) No, that is not the fact.

'''Bill Sauer:''' So you need to take the bodies somewhere so that . . . (laughs)

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, so long you are in the material world you need to take a material body, but if you are in your original, spiritual body, then you remain in the spiritual world.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, I believe there is a matrix of creation, a spiritual—technical people call it an electromagnetic world—where I'm sure a lot goes on that we are unaware of, but I believe the . . . it's like one product of the fourth kingdom is the automobile. And that has its spiritual world. Automobiles, if you destroyed all the automobiles, there are still blueprints around, there are still things that can manufacture other automobiles. But the trial, the improvement, the development the automobile has to take place as an automobile. Likewise, I think the spiritual improvement, the improvement of . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Automobile, automatically automobile does not develop. When a man, a person, develops the design, that is a question of development. But the automobile as it is, it does not develop. It is matter. When matter is handled by spirit soul, then there is change. Otherwise there is no change.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Perhaps I can give you a scientific explanation. I'm a scientist. According to science, every cell is changed within twelve years. Every single body's cell is changed.

'''Bill Sauer:''' It's continuous, yes.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' It's a continuing process, by the molecular process, automatic process. All right? And ''Gītā'' says: ''vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya navāni gṛhṇāti naro 'parāṇi'' ([[BG 2.22 (1972)|BG 2.22]]). Just like you change the old clothes to new clothes—it's an exact word-to-word translation.

'''Bill Sauer:''' We're a continually changing image, right.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' The body changes. Now the concept of God, according to the scripture, is infinite. With our finite mind, we cannot comprehend the infinite. Because the finite can only comprehend a finite portion of it. Just like when I was a child, my concept of God, the infinity, was a certain portion of infinity, but it changes. So long you are comprehending the material part of an infinity, you are only comprehending a finite part, and consequently, when the body changes or the soul changes, you will never be able to comprehend the material and the transition of the material to another planet, because there is no way you can comprehend the totality of the God's manifestation. In the Eighteenth Chapter, when the ''virāḍ-rūpa'' is given, he cannot comprehend the whole ''māyā''. And the idea of transporting body or material is just in a very small, finite portion of the total infinity, which no one can comprehend. This is what Prabhupāda is . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' I agree. What we are, are the resulting images of the power of creation. We are the evidence that there is a creative power.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' And consequently, since we are only a manifestation of the total power . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's right, we are a manifestation, an image of it.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' That's why you cannot. An electric bulbs, when they are turned on and off, the light is there, but it is very hard to say where the electrons are flowing into, which . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, in our case, our electrons are flowing from one place, the sun, and the imagery in your magazine is just beautiful. It shows the imagery of the man and the sun, and what we are, scientifically, as you know, (devotees laugh) we are images of sun energy, and this is where electrons come from. And when the sun goes out, we go out, unless we go to another star where there is another sun.

'''Vipina:''' Bill, could you explain to Śrīla Prabhupāda how you think life is created?

'''Bill Sauer:''' How it is created?

'''Vipina:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Who is the creator?

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, there is a creative force. The power of life is light, and you say (laughs) "Godhead is light, nescience is darkness." I believe it. It's trite and very true, in my understanding.

'''Vipina:''' He thinks everything comes from light, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Now all the religions refer to God as light. Most of the religions. And science agrees. Light is that very fugitive bit of energy that allows life to be possible.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Unless there is fire, wherefrom the light comes?

'''Bill Sauer:''' From the fire in the sun.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, therefore the fire is the source of light.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's the source of light, yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So as soon as you say light, you must find out the source of light.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's correct. You must destroy matter in order to create light.

'''Woman guest:''' What about water?

'''Dr. Sharma:''' You don't destroy any matter; it is transmutation.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Or, excuse me, I don't mean destroy—it's transmuted from matter to energy.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' That's the Einstein's equation, energy is equal to mass and the speed of light, to the square of that. You can transmute either way. There is no matter destroyed or created.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's correct. Matter and energy are really the same thing. It's another form, that's correct.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' That's the whole principle of atomic . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' So once you have light, you have the source of life, and then you have to have an enormously creative power to take the light, move it into a form which can become life. It started out as single cells in the ocean or simple chemicals in the ocean, then single-celled, then more complex celled, all with an extraordinarily complicated creative power causing the light to flow through, to create a new image, which is life. And it's very similar, as you understand the television picture has the same electromagnetic energy that we are. We, with our simple brains, can take electromagnetic energy, tune it, transmit it, retune it as a two-dimensional picture. The creative power in life has taken the same electromagnetic energy coming from the sun, and has tuned it in the form of living images, three-dimensional images, far, far more complicated than our simple television.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' I'll read your book page by page and you do the same number of chanting. (laughter)

'''Bill Sauer:''' All right.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Okay?

'''Bill Sauer:''' Yes, sir.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' And you'll be surprised what happens. I'm a hard-core scientist, and to me, it's a transformation, absolutely. I'll read your book and you read the transformation. I'm sure you'll get ahead much quicker than me.

'''Bill Sauer:''' I've talked to your people, and I think there's pretty much agreement on the fundamental philosophical concept.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' There's something magnetic about it, something creative which comes from inside. You can't explain.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Where is our scientist?

'''Vipina:''' Svarūpa Dāmodara—could you get him?

'''Hari-śauri:''' I already sent someone for him, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I don't think he's here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' He's not here.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' They went to the Library of Congress today, Prabhupāda. They aren't here right now.

'''Bill Sauer:''' No, I think you put it better than I did. We do not destroy matter, we transmute it to energy. That's exactly correct.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' And that you can say is exactly equal to Planck's Constant . . . Planck's Constant multiplied by the frequency of light.

'''Bill Sauer:''' And it is the . . . and in fire you are again transmuting material chemical energy into light. And when our light source goes out . . .

'''Dr. Sharma:''' And it surprising. I'm a scientist, I publish papers, now it is all coming together. It is after a long search which we are doing, the body systems, how to be coordinated. Endocrine systems and the nervous systems . . . (indistinct) . . . endocrine systems is coming though the nervous system, and that is coordinated through ''prāṇāyāma-yoga'' and the chanting. Basically, indirectly, is a straightforward . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' Well, there's fundamentally, should not be a difference between science and religion, really should not be.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' All scientists, all big scientists are the greatest religious people. I am at Berkeley. They are all Nobel Prize winners. They always say that all of our science, we cannot create a single leaf or a single flower, we feel so helpless.

'''Bill Sauer:''' You know Calvin?

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Sure. I was professor at UCLA, and he was . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' Very good. See, he got his Nobel Laureate in explaining how the chemistry of light turns into life. So I passed my manuscript by him to make sure that he didn't run me out of town. So he agreed. He said it was rather novel. But I believe there is a fundamental truth that runs through the whole system, and I've read some of your comments in the magazines, and I think you are fundamentally in agreement with what you said.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Prabhupāda, perhaps you can make commentary on this śloka:

:''yā niśā sarva-bhūtānāṁ''
:''tasyāṁ jāgarti saṁyamī''
:''yasyāṁ jāgrati bhūtāni''
:''sā niśā paśyato muneḥ''
:([[BG 2.69 (1972)|BG 2.69]])

'''Prabhupāda:''' The material civilization is the ''jāgrati'' for the materialistic person. But those who are spiritually enlightened, they think that these persons are sleeping. They got the opportunity of understanding God, but without understanding God, they are simply busy with the material body and its comfort and working hard day and night, and missing the point. And whereas the materialistic person, they see these Kṛṣṇa conscious people, Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they are wasting their time by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and they are doing nothing. Just the opposite business. These people are seeing the materialistic person, they are sleeping, not enlightened to the spiritual life and these materialistic persons, they are seeing that these people, under some fictitious idea, they are spoiling their life without enjoying material facilities. Just the opposite.

'''Bill Sauer:''' I try to resolve those two views. I believe that materialism has a divine purpose.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Everything has got divine purpose. But if you do not understand the divine purpose, then you remain animal.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Yes, that's right.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Everything has got divine purpose. This human form of life is given to us by laws of nature to understand what is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, what is this material world, why you have come here. These things we have to know in this human form of life, and, if we like, we can know also. But instead of knowing these different phases of life, if we simply take care of this body, like the animals, then we miss the opportunity. The animal is concerned to take the care of the body, that's all. If we simply remain taking care of this body, then we are animal. ''Sa eva go-kharaḥ''.

:''yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke''
:''sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ''
:''yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij''
:''janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ''
:([[SB 10.84.13|SB 10.84.13]])

'''Bill Sauer:''' Sir, may I read you back the . . . my version of "Materialism Without Purpose"?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?

'''Bill Sauer:''' May I read you "Materialism Without Purpose"?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Without purpose?

'''Bill Sauer:''' Says: "Mankind's insatiable appetite for material things stems from an instinctive desire to pursue technology, which in turn drives civilization to a frenzy of activity. However, without a cause or a purpose," or spirituality, as you say: "The rush and hurry in uncertain directions to uncertain places creates an excess of technological gimmickery. Perhaps this continuing quest for more material goods would be less anxious if the cause of this obsession of mankind were universally recognized. If we saw the ultimate use of technology as an extension of nature with a purpose for the whole life system, perhaps a new life style would evolve. We would see a creative, natural, instinctive satisfying outlet for energies, and we might all collectively attain more peace of mind. The waste of technological gimmickery would then disappear. Hard reality, however, will extinguish our relentless desire for material things if we do not correct the situation ourselves. We will soon run out of resources and power if our technological explosion continues as blind as a raging torrent of water flowing in any direction gravity takes it."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, we are carried away by the laws of nature. However you may improve your technological science, you are under the laws of material nature. That you cannot change. But if you revive your spiritual life, then you can change. Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself under the laws of material nature, then you have to be carried away by the laws of material nature, however expert you may be in technological understanding. Because, after all, you are an instrument in the hands of material nature.

:''prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni''
:''guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ''
:''ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā''
:''kartāham iti manyate''
:([[BG 3.27 (1972)|BG 3.27]])

You are falsely thinking that "I am everything. I can, by technological understanding, I improve the condition." But the real problem is, as it is put forward by ''Bhagavad-gītā,'' ''janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam'' ([[BG 13.8-12 (1972)|BG 13.9]]). We are eternal, ''na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). We are put under the laws of material nature, by which we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease. This is our real problem. So unless you make a solution of these problems, there is actually no advancement of education. But the problem remains the same.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Saying that we're governed by the laws of nature, since we are a biological creature like the rest of life . . . (laughs)

'''Prabhupāda:''' So you should not remain under the laws of material nature. ''Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā'' ([[BG 7.14 (1972)|BG 7.14]]). It is very difficult.

'''Bill Sauer:''' In one of the cover letters that went out to some of the people in the American Institute of the Aeronautics and Astronautics, I referred to mankind as a biological phenomenon to solve one of nature's big problems. And a man wrote back, says: "Anybody who calls man a biological phenomenon shouldn't try and talk to me." So I don't know what he thinks we are, but . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Biological phenomenon is nature.

'''Bill Sauer:''' It is nature. It is governed by the laws of nature, exactly.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So you can get out of it as it is advised, ''daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā'' ([[BG 7.14 (1972)|BG 7.14]]). It is very difficult. But ''mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te''. If you surrender to God, then you can get out of this biological problem. Otherwise it is not possible.

'''Mr. Davis''': May I just add one little note to my friend, and I'm sure my scientist friend will back me up, that the radiation from the sun includes far more than just light, which is, after all, just a mere part of the electromagnetic radiation.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Physical light is what you're talking about.

'''Mr. Davis''': Yes.

'''Bill Sauer:''' I'm talking about the whole electromagnetic spectrum.

'''Mr. Davis''': Yes, but you said light.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Okay, you're correct. I wrote . . . I've said it in the book, that it is far more complex than we can even imagine. It's far more complex. Let's see . . .

'''Dr. Sharma:'''

:''yataḥ pravṛttir bhūtānāṁ''
:''yena sarvam idaṁ tatam''
:''svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya''
:''siddhiṁ vindati mānavaḥ''
:([[BG 18.46 (1972)|BG 18.46]])

'''Devotee (2):''' Excuse me, is your name Bill? Did you ever inquire to ask what is the source of the light? Like if you look at a light bulb you can examine that it has a source to that, actually. You can trace it back to the electric company, and the people who are running the electric company are personalities, right? So in the same way the light of the sun and the light of the moon is coming from a person, a personality, right? And we say that that person is the source of all truths actually.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's an interesting way of . . . I said: "Radiant energy from the sun was to be the most important ingredient for our living earth. We know the content of the sun rays to be light and heat. This is what our senses tell us. We measure wavelengths and we see colors in sunlight. However, the sun rays are a blend of radiant energy so complex that we may never understand their significance." And I believe, at least in our generation, I don't think we'll quite understand how complex the sun is. So I agree totally with you.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' It's not only that. By the theory of relativity, the observer is also a part of the observed phenomenon. Consequently, we will never . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's correct. We will never understand . . .

'''Dr. Sharma:''' For that reason, it's difficult to comprehend infinity by the finite mind, and chanting gives you something, gives me something.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's right. Well, you find an intuitive understanding . . .

'''Dr. Sharma:''' I can't explain it.

'''Mr. Davis''': It brings you to the uncertainty principle.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Heisenberg's Principle, yes . . . (indistinct)

'''Bill Sauer:''' I'm glad you said that. Then this holds true, that we may never understand the significance, and being observers on the scene we probably never will. Einstein used to say he'd like to . . . he used to wonder how it might be to ride a wave of light so he could see how it really was. But since we're sitting here . . . (laughs)

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Someday we have to have the faith, and the only thing, as Prabhupāda said, that there is a bottle of honey inside, and being outside, you can see, but unless you taste it, you can't really feel it.

'''Bill Sauer:''' Probably the most important . . . I quoted some people. This is Pierre de Chardin, who was a very religious man in science, was caught right in the two, and I consider this probably the most important quote in the book. De Chardin said: "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still-opposed powers . . ." namely religion and science . . .

'''Dr. Sharma:''' No, I would never agree to that. Religion and science . . .

'''Bill Sauer:''' In the Western civilization it's opposed. He's saying philosophically, he said: "In the mutual reinforcement of these two still-opposed powers and the conjunction of reason and mysticism, the human spirit is destined by the very nature of its development to find the uttermost degree of its penetration and the maximum of its vital force." In other words, if you don't have spirituality and science, you're only half a person. So he's simply saying what you did.

'''Dr. Sharma:''' Yes to my surprise, most . . .

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Excuse me, one thing is, you should address your questions to the authority. This discussion that you are having will get you nowhere.

'''Bill Sauer:''' That's true.

'''Bṛṣākapi:''' Unless you apply your questions to the authority, then you will never understand anything. So the authority is ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam'', and His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta is teaching on that authority. So if you have come here, then you should try to address your questions to His Divine Grace rather than arguing among yourselves, because you will not find any satisfaction in your argument. If you want information, then you must go to the authority.

'''Guest:''' Still, the argument was an aspect of the occasion, and it came out of the wisdom that is here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet'' (Mahābhārata, Bhīṣma parva 5.22). Things which are inconceivable, do not try to understand by argument. ''Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet''. So our process, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to take knowledge from the authority. Unless we take knowledge from the authority, however we may go on arguing, we cannot come to the conclusion. The modern scientist, philosophers, they are arguing, but they do not come to the conclusion. If you want to take conclusion . . . just like two lawyers are arguing in the court, but the conclusion is given by the authority, the judge. That one has to accept. So we take authority, ''Bhagavad-gītā'' or Kṛṣṇa. He is accepted authority by all the ''ācāryas''—Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and in the ''śāstra'' also, Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala, Asita. So our authority is confirmed. So if we take conclusion from the authority, then we benefit. Otherwise, with our limited knowledge, if we go on arguing, then we cannot understand the conclusion. That is not possible. ''Tarko 'pratiṣṭhaḥ śrutayo vibhinnā''. By argument we cannot come to the conclusion. I can argue, and you can argue, but you may argue more than me. Another person can argue more than you. In this way, you do not come to the conclusion. And ''śrutayo vibhinnā''. So far scriptures are concerned, there are also different scriptures. ''Nāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam'' (Mahābhārata, Vana-parva 313.117). And a philosopher is not a philosopher if he does not agree with other . . . if he does not agree other philosophers. So in this way, you are perplexed. Therefore it is advised, ''mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ'' ([[CC Madhya 17.186|CC Madhya 17.186]]). We should accept the authority, and then we shall be benefited. So the authorities are mentioned in the ''śāstra'', who are authorities. So if we follow the authority, then we get the conclusion.

So Kṛṣṇa is the authority accepted. At least in India, all the Vedic authorities, Vedāntists, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the authority. So we simply follow what Kṛṣṇa says, and we get benefit out of it. Then it is all right. And without following authority, if you go on arguing, there is no end. The same example, that two lawyers, both of them are learned scholar. They are going on arguing on some point, they do not come to conclusion. But when the judge gives his conclusion, that has to be accepted. That is final. So we have to find out the judge. That is Kṛṣṇa. So we have got many points to understand by argument, but if we take the judgment of Kṛṣṇa, then it is conclusive. And He has His direction in every field of life, in ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Even our political leaders, they also accept ''Bhagavad-gītā'' in guidance. So if we take guidance from ''Bhagavad-gītā'' without malinterpretation, then we are benefited. Unfortunately, we interpret our own way which is favorable to us, and that is not required. Then the authority of the ''Bhagavad-gītā'' is gone. We make our own conclusion, supposing on the authority of ''Bhagavad-gītā''. That will not help us, by malinterpretation. You take the conclusion of ''Bhagavad-gītā'' as it is, then you will be benefited.

Eugene Thoreau: May I ask a question? Is it possible to aim at any form of personal existence after death? To aim at it, I mean.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, you are personally existing, you are old man. When you were a child, you were person. When you were a young man, you were a person. Now you are old man, you are a person. We are personalities continuing, although the body is changing. You are not missing your personality. So therefore personality continues even when you change this body also. That is explained in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'', in the Second Chapter. Kṛṣṇa says . . . (aside) Find out this verse.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā'' ([[BG 2.13 (1972)|BG 2.13]]).

'''Hari-śauri:''' ''Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]])?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, there is another verse where Kṛṣṇa says: "My dear Arjuna, you and Me and all these persons who are assembled here . . ."

'''Hari-śauri:''' ''Na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsam''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, that verse.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:'''

:''na tv evāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ''
:''na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ''
:''na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ''
:''sarve vayam ataḥ param''
:([[BG 2.12 (1972)|BG 2.12]])

Translation: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings, nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that means in the past we existed, at present we are existing, and in future we shall continue to exist, individually. And that is our experience. I existed in the past as a child. So I existed as a person. I existed as a young man, so I existed as a person. I am an old man now; now I am existing as a person. Naturally, the conclusion is when I shall change this body, I shall remain as a person. How we can change this conclusion? I am continuing to exist as a person. I am still existing as a person. And here is the authority, He says in the future also you remain as a person. So there is time factor, past, present and future, and in all these time factors I live as a person. Not only I, but also Kṛṣṇa. He says: "I also remain as person. You, Arjuna, you also person, I am also person, and all these soldiers and kings who have assembled, they are also person." So our personality continues, past, present and future.

'''Mr. Davis''': Well then when you die and you are buried, they bury your body.

'''Prabhupāda:''' My body you bury, but I go away.

'''Mr. Davis''': They bury my body whatever, they bury your name, they write it on a stone maybe, but they bury your name, they bury your memory. What survives, I am going to ask, and then what survives—no memory, no body, no name—is the spirit.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is soul. Spirit soul.

'''Mr. Davis''': And the spirit would not necessarily have the ability to point and say: "I used to be in that body or that body or that."

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, that he forgets. Death means forgetfulness. Just like accepting that I was existing in previous life, but now I do not remember. This is death. But I am existing, that's a fact. The same example: Everyone knows that he was existing as a child, he was existing as a young man. So because it is short period, I remember. But when the body is completely changed, the atmosphere is completely changed, we forget. But actually I exist continually. ''Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre'' ([[BG 2.20 (1972)|BG 2.20]]). This is the authoritative statement, that I am not annihilated on account of my body being annihilated. So they bury the body, or giving some name, some tomb, that is the business of my relatives, my friends, my family members. But as I am, I am aloof from this. I have accepted another body. And then begin my life in a different way. So people do not try to understand this science, how it is happening. That is all described in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. If we study ''Bhagavad-gītā'' very carefully, we can understand the philosophy of life correctly.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' This gentleman here has a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Eugene Thoreau: You mentioned understanding. You mentioned lawyers arguing and the judge make the decision, and their higher authority resolves the question. Can you suggest how people can go beyond that to spiritual understanding—not just appealing for judgment over a controversy about facts. What suggestions or comments do you have about achieving spiritual understanding?

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is very simple. Spiritual understanding, that is, I was speaking. This is beginning of ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Spiritual understanding is that I am not this body. (to devotee) You move little this way. This is spiritual understanding. So long I am under this bodily concept of life, that, "I am this body," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Christian," "I am white," "I am black" and so on, so on, these are all bodily concept of life. So long we keep ourself on this platform, then we are on the material platform. When you understand that, "I am not this body . . ." That is the beginning of ''Bhagavad-gītā''. ''Dehino 'smin yathā dehe'' ([[BG 2.13 (1972)|BG 2.13]]). ''Deha'' means this body, and ''dehī'' means the owner of the body. So unless we distinguish the owner of the body and the body, there is no spiritual knowledge. So long we identify with this body, that is material knowledge. And when we understand that, "I am not this body. I am a spirit soul. I have been entrapped by this body," that is spiritual knowledge.

'''Mr. Davis''': Is it not also true that the more you can realize, "I am not this body," but there is that about, within my body which is spiritual, and that is there in an African's body which is spiritual, or a Chinese . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Everyone's body is spiritual.

'''Mr. Davis''': Everyone's body. Therefore the thing we have in common is we are all a part of the spirit.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is fact. We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit, God. That is explained in the ''Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ'' ([[BG 15.7 (1972)|BG 15.7]]): "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." Qualitatively, we are one. Just like a small particle of gold is also gold. It is nothing else. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, we have got that godly qualification. God can create. We can also create. That example I have given in this my last magazine, that we have created this big 747 airplane, but we cannot create a mosquito. That is also a plane, with pilot. That is God's creation. So the creative power, both of us, we have got, but we are limited and He is unlimited. That is the difference. A drop of seawater contains the same chemical, but the quantity of Atlantic Ocean and drop of Atlantic Ocean is not the same. So we are just like drop of the Atlantic Ocean, and God is Atlantic Ocean. That is the difference. But chemically test: the whole Atlantic Ocean is salty, we are also salty. Whatever chemical composition is Atlantic Ocean, we are also of the same chemical composition. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we show sometimes activities very wonderful. But still, God's activities are still more wonderful. That we cannot compare. That is not possible.

So we should understand what is the duty of the part and parcel. Now, just like this finger is the part and parcel of my body. So what is the duty of the finger? To serve the whole body. I order the finger, "Please come here," immediately it does like this. So the finger, being part and parcel of the body, it is the duty of the finger to serve the whole body. When the finger is unable to give any service, then it is diseased. If there is some pain in the finger, I want to use this finger for some purpose, to pick up this flower, I cannot do it; that means it is diseased. Similarly, we living entities, part and parcel of God, when we are unable to give service to the Supreme, and that is our diseased condition. That is not normal condition. And when we actually able to give service to God, that is our healthy condition. So in the materialistic way of life we are diseased. Because we are diseased, therefore we have to accept birth and death. ''Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam'' ([[SB 5.5.1|SB 5.5.1]]). So we have to get free from this diseased condition. ''Śuddhyet sattvam. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam'' . . . (break) (end)

760415 - Morning Walk - Bombay

2023-12-22T22:49:32Z

Payal:

[[Category:1976 - Morning Walks]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures and Conversations]]
[[Category:1976 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:1976-04 - Lectures, Conversations and Letters]]
[[Category:Morning Walks - India]]
[[Category:Morning Walks - India, Bombay]]
[[Category:Conversations and Lectures with Hindi Snippets]]
[[Category:Audio Files 45.01 to 60.00 Minutes]]
<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Morning Walks - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Morning Walks - by Date|Morning Walks by Date]], [[:Category:1976 - Morning Walks|1976]]'''</div>
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<div class="center">
[[Vanipedia:760415b - Morning Walk - Srila Prabhupada Speaks a Nectar Drop in Bombay|'''  <big>Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture'''</big>]]</div>


<div class="code">760415MW-BOMBAY - April 15, 1976 - 58.38 Minutes</div>

<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1976/760415MW-BOMBAY_mono.mp3</mp3player>

'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . detached to that, Jain. So he was advertising about that Jain Muni.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sushil Kumar.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Sushil Kumar. He went to San Francisco. He met me there. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So he has come back, so I inquired what is the result of his preaching.

'''Viśāla:''' (from a distance) All glories to Prabhupāda!

'''Prabhupāda:''' He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian . . . automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. But what about the . . . he was talking about the ''ahiṁsā''. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ''ahiṁsā''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' The ''ahiṁsā'' should be practiced by manasa, vaca and karma. Mind, body and words.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, in the śāstra it is said that ''ahastāni sa-hastānām apadāni catuṣ-padām'' ([[SB 1.13.47|SB 1.13.47]]).

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Phalgūni tatra mahatām''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Phalgūni tatra mahatām''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah, ''phalgūni mahatāṁ tatra''.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Mahatāṁ tatra jīvo jīvasya jīvanam''. This is natural, that one ''jīva'' is the food for another ''jīva''. So how ''ahiṁsā'' is possible?

'''Dr. Patel:''' But that has been said in ''Rāmāyaṇa'' by that Mātanga Muni, you know, Mātanga Muni who was harboring Saubhari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other ''ṛṣis'' were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ''ahiṁsā''. Then he gave the feast to all those ''ṛṣis'', and the ''lāḍu'' starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or these things.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Mātanga Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity . . . this is the law of nature. ''Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam''. You cannot starve and live.

'''Dr. Patel:''' But sir . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' And practically . . . eh?

'''Dr. Patel:''' We are killing the body and not . . . the soul is inkillable.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. (Dr. Patel laughs) Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. ''Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam'' (Hitopadeśa 25). So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ''ahiṁsā''? Mean on the basic principle, the ''ahiṁsā paramo dharma'', where is ''ahiṁsā''? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ''ahiṁsā?'' That is my point.

'''Dr. Patel:''' When you kill purposelessly, without any useful . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. No interpretation. They say that, "No killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands that, "We are for not . . . no killing"?

'''Dr. Patel:''' Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So then our Vaiṣṇava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Kṛṣṇa ''prasādam''. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that, "You take Kṛṣṇa ''prasādam''." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that, "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

'''Dr. Patel:''' (laughter) And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? ''Apadāni catuṣ-padām'' ([[SB 1.13.47|SB 1.13.47]]). This vegetable is meant for the ''catuṣ-padām'', for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that, "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal," that is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ''ahiṁsā'' at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take ''Kṛṣṇa prasādam'', that is perfect. Kṛṣṇa says, ''patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati'' ([[BG 9.26 (1972)|BG 9.26]]). So automatically . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a . . . (indistinct Hindi)"

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That. Then there is perfection, if you take Kṛṣṇa ''prasādam''. ''Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asyopajāyate'' ([[BG 2.65 (1972)|BG 2.65]]). So this vegetarianism is no, mean, good position.

'''Dr. Patel:''' No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals, they are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.

'''Dr. Patel:''' They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.

'''Prabhupāda:''' And they live in the forest.

'''Dr. Patel:''' They are ''sannyāsīs''. (laughs)

'''Prabhupāda:''' But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.

'''Yaśomatīnandana:''' Cows are also vegetarians.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?

'''Yaśomatīnandana:''' Cows, they are also vegetarians.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by . . . these are all theories only. It has no value.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing ''haṭha-yoga'', or something like this is better than nothing.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, ''man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ''. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That said, ''tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara'' ([[BG 3.9 (1972)|BG 3.9]]): "You must do everything for Him, even eating."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That is vegetarianism.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then, then you are . . . then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Kṛṣṇa ''prasādam'', then he is vegetarian automatically.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Kṛṣṇa, but is it necessarily so?

'''Prabhupāda:''' No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate, ''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]), these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not feel, but actually it's an order.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Actually doing it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Arjuna did not feel, he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Kṛṣṇa. If he says: "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. ''Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ''. Otherwise why ''guru'' is required? We must take every moment order from him.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Ya bhakti . . .''

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau'' (ŚU 6.23).

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ.''

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Kathitā''. You cannot manufacture some ideas that, "I am feeling I am doing for Kṛṣṇa." No. That will not be . . . direct order. She is going behind?

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Today is a full moon day, and the full tide came at twelve o'clock by night. So after eight o'clock there is a full reverse of it, what do you call it?

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Low tide.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Low tide. Yes. (Gujrati) (break)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Garuḍa. He is perfect vegetarian. You know what is his food? Snakes. (Dr. Patel laughs) And he is carrying the Lord. It is a devotee, you see? He is not vegetarian. And how powerful he is that one sparrow, a small bird, lost his egg. The ''samudra'' took it away. And he decided, "I shall dry this ''samudra''." So he began to pick up some water. So Nārada Muni was passing. So he asked, "What you are doing?" And "Sir, yes, the ''samudra'' has taken my egg, so I shall dry it up." So he said: "But how you can do it? You are so small. You just pray to your head. You are bird, and he is the head of the birds. You just pray to Garuḍa. He can do it." So he prayed Garuḍa, and Garuḍa came and asked ''samudra'', "Immediately deliver; otherwise I shall take step." Immediately it was delivered. Such powerful. Yes. And he was not a vegetarian.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Aisa bologe to ye shuru kar denge apna phir khane ka. (If you say like this, then these people will start eating non-vegetarian again.) (laughing)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nahi hum to ye nahi bolte hain . . . Hum bolta hain jo Kṛṣṇa Conscious me hain. ye sab bhanda nahin karne ka, vegetarian hai, yeh hai, vo hai, ye sab me kuch kaam nahi hai. (No we don't say this . . . We say, whoever is there in Kṛṣṇa Conscious, all this show is not required that I am vegetarian, I am this, I am that, there is no work in all this.) You become Kṛṣṇa Conscious.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Ye log bolenge murgi bhi vegetarian hai chalo kha lo. (They will say the hen is also vegetarian, so let's eat it.)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Aur tum . . . bhi khao suar ghoo bhi khata hai. ( and you . . . the pig eats stool as well.) (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you very much. ''Namaskāra''. ''Jaya''. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Real culture is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. ab dekhiye na ye log sab Krishna Concious ho gaya, vegetarian ho gaya, non-drunkard ho gaya, no illicit sex, no gambling, automatically. Now you see these boys and girls have become Krishna Concious, they have become vegetarian, they don't drink . . . ''yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samā . . .'' ([[SB 5.18.12|SB 5.18.12]]). If you simply turn these people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all good qualities will come automatically. All good qualities. That is wanted. And we are practically seeing that. Simply by becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, lover of Kṛṣṇa, they are becoming qualified. ''Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ'' ([[SB 5.18.12|SB 5.18.12]]). There is no good qualification for a nondevotee. He'll simply act on mental speculation, that's all. It has no value.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Sometimes people are amazed that we've given up such sinful activities.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, they should be amazed, because they are mental speculators.

'''Dr. Patel:''' You mean unconditional surrender.

'''Prabhupāda:''' And here are the surrendered souls. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ''api cet sudurācāro''. "Even they have got some bad symptoms," ''bhajate mām ananya-bhāk'', "but if he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious," ''sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ'' ([[BG 9.30 (1972)|BG 9.30]]), "he is ''sādhu''." So if we want to make the whole world ''sādhu'', perfect human being, then we have to push on this movement without any hesitation. All people will be ''sādhu'', and then there will be peace and prosperity.

'''Dr. Patel:''' You mean bring about the spiritual communism of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is real com . . . everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. They are stating, "Everything belongs to the state." Why you are limiting? State is limited. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is perfect communism.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' In the Bible it says: "On earth as it is in heaven."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' In the Bible it says: "On earth as it is in heaven," that the life on earth should be also under the domain of God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' But there is no program how to actually do that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, program is there. Kṛṣṇa is speaking, "Do this program, execute," ''man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad . . .'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]). Program is there, but rascal will not take it. There is no difficulty.

'''Dr. Patel:''' The Christian prayers are also the self-surrender.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Any prayer. If we become God conscious . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' "Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Then it is all right. And without God consciousness there is no qualification. ''Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ''. There cannot be any good qualities. (break)

'''Dr. Patel:''' Then His kingdom can come on earth; not otherwise.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. If one man becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver many millions. Not expected . . . you cannot expect all to become, but if one man is there, Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can deliver. (break) ''Kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānāṁ kaścid . . .'' ([[BG 7.3 (1972)|BG 7.3]]). So it is not so easy thing, but if there is one Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can deliver many millions. (break) . . . ''ti śreṣṭhas lokas tad anuvartate'' ([[BG 3.21 (1972)|BG 3.21]]). There must be one ''śreṣṭha'', ideal man, and then everyone will follow. And there is no ''śreṣṭha''. That is the difficulty.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Śreṣṭha'' is only God. ''Śrī iṣṭha'' means ''śreṣṭha'', sir. The ''śrī iṣṭha'' is only . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, ''śreṣṭha'', but one who follows Him, he is also ''śreṣṭha''.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' ''Mahat-sevām''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm. ''Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ'' ([[SB 5.5.2|SB 5.5.2]]).

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' "By associating with devotees . . ."

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam. Tamo-dvāram,'' the path of darkness, if they associate with ''yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' There is ''sat-saṅga sadācāraṁ nirāvinam''. These three qualities come to men, sir.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. ''Sat-saṅga'' means you have to associate with ''sat'', devotees. ''Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ'' ([[SB 3.25.25|SB 3.25.25]]). If you associate with ''sat-saṅga'', then you'll gradually relish Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise not.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Just like Nārada Muni, in his previous . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers all parts of the world, to give them chance of ''sat-saṅga'', so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, ''yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa'' ([[CC Madhya 7.128|CC Madhya 7.128]]). It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Kṛṣṇa has said, that's all. ''Yāre dekha tāre kaha''. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen.

:''na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ''
:''prapadyante narādhamāḥ''
:''māyayāpahṛta-jñānā''
:''āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ''
:([[BG 7.15 (1972)|BG 7.15]])

As soon as you see he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is within these four groups — ''duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayā . . .'' immediately conclude.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, ''duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama'', all are ''māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?

'''Dr. Patel:''' All of them are ''māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, ''māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' They, all of them, all the three previous also.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So he may say that, "I have passed B.A., M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C.," and "Whether you are Kṛṣṇa conscious?" "No, sir." "Then you are a fool, rascal."

'''Dr. Patel:''' (laughs) These B.A., M.A., are māyā degrees.

'''Prabhupāda:''' This preaching is done by ''Śyāmasundara's'' little daughter, five years, six years. She goes to a gentleman, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" So he says: "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just see. This is preaching. A child can do this preaching work. She has learned from us, and she is convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and she goes to anyone, "Do you know who is Kṛṣṇa?" He says: "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching. Then he is a good preacher. That's all. The rascal does not know Kṛṣṇa. He gets at least some information, "Here is Kṛṣṇa." And on this basis our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara, Ph.D . . . you have read that book? It is first class. The scientist, the so-called scientist, unless he is insane, he cannot say that there is no God. He has written so nice, from scientific.

'''Dr. Patel:''' But the real scientists are also God conscious.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is all right. He is real scientist.

'''Dr. Patel:''' You have been unfortunately against them, but think of Albert Einstein. He was totally God conscious throughout his life.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, he is all right, but mostly they say: "What is the use of God? Now science, everything science." They say like that.

'''Dr. Patel:''' You have been very harsh to the scientists.

'''Prabhupāda:''' They are misleading. These rascals are misleading. That is the way.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' He was very God conscious when he made the atomic bomb.

'''Dr. Patel:''' How many of us are scientists here? He might help you also.

'''Prabhupāda:''' We know real scientist because we know the biggest scientist, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are scientists. Without Him we don't claim to be scientists—fools, rascals. ''Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tathā kim'' (Pañcarātra). He is everything. He doesn't require to. ''Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati'' (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, then you become scientist, philosopher. And I was never a scientist, so we challenge the scientists, and I have produced this scientist to challenge them. But I was never a scientist. That book is actually revolutionary amongst the scientists. ''Scientific Basis'', you have read that?

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Yes, I have read it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific . . . he has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know."

'''Dr. Patel:''' Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say, the . . . (indistinct) . . . that there is life on other stars, in other planets.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Their communism is lost now, another ten years.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, communism is lost, not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Kṛṣṇa or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, ''lakhs''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Millions.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So we . . . our propaganda is bring Kṛṣṇa; then your zeros will be valued. Otherwise you are zeros.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, they were saying that religion is an opium.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, opium is very good sometimes. He is right. Tincture opium. Yes. Yes. All the drugs are used. You know very well.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Yes, yes, sir. In heart attack we give that first.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. ''Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate'' (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255). That is wanted.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, they do not know.

'''Dr. Patel:''' It is abstract materialism, sir.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of the religious teachings of ''sanātana-dharma''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, that . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' The spirit is more important than material.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Unless they change their very principle on which they are working. That is why I say we must spread the spiritual communism, sir, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the only way. The other day I talked about the dialectical materialism. That is the crux of the whole communism. You know it.

'''Prabhupāda:''' The communism will be immediately perfect as soon as it is connected with Kṛṣṇa.

'''Dr. Patel:''' But that is, sir . . . I mean, our ''sanātana-dharma'' is spiritual communism. That is what we actually try to preach them.

'''Prabhupāda:''' But you have lost it. You have lost it.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Yes, we have lost. That is right. And we are gaining it again. The heaven is lost; heaven may be regained. (laughs) What is that, Milton's . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' "Paradise . . ."

'''Dr. Patel:''' "Paradise Lost and Gained."

'''Prabhupāda:''' If you have lost Kṛṣṇa, that is paradise lost.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Paradise lost, that is. My paradise, everything, is lost.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. (break) And this night I have explained, chanting outside the temple and chanting in the temple, it increases the value thousand times. That I have explained, this evening, er, this last night.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Chanting in the temple increases the . . .?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Value.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' The value.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Potency, thousand times. Otherwise, why they are going to the Vṛndāvana? (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. ''Jaya''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, what is the difference between ''mānasī'' chanting and chanting . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, ''mānasī'' chanting, that is ''smaraṇa''. That is another thing. But chanting means the tongue must work. That is real chanting.

'''Dr. Patel:''' But if only tongue works and the mind does not work, it has no value.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So mind will . . . you chant loudly, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa"—the mind will come.

'''Dr. Patel:''' This mind, ''buddhi'', and the ''jīva'' in it, all the three must carry on . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Then it is real chanting.

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . with the chanting.

'''Prabhupāda:''' You have to practice. You have to practice. Not all of a sudden these three things can be combined so you can become . . . it requires practice. ''Jaya. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā'' ([[BG 8.8 (1972)|BG 8.8]]). You have to practice. Your mind cannot go outside. Then it will be . . . you have to become the master of your mind. You cannot be dictated by the mind. Then you are victim. There is a verse that, "The mind is friend, and mind is enemy. One who can dictate the mind, his mind is friend. And one who is dictated by the mind, his mind is enemy." So we have to learn how to dictate, control the mind. And that is ''yoga'' system. ''Yoga indriya-saṁyama.''

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, greatest ''yoga'' . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Greatest ''yoga'' is devotee.

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . to join your mind with God, with Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, yes. If one's mind is always engaged in Kṛṣṇa, then he is the greatest, biggest ''yogī''.

:''yoginām api sarveṣāṁ''
:''mad-gatenāntarātmanā''
:''śraddhāvān bhajate yo māṁ''
:''sa me yuktatamo mataḥ''
:([[BG 6.47 (1972)|BG 6.47]])

That is first-class ''yoga''. (break) . . . means keep them always engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, mind. That is wanted.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Indriyāṇi pramāthīni haranti prasabhaṁ manaḥ'' ([[BG 2.60 (1972)|BG 2.60]]).

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, if your ''indriyas'' are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's activities, they are no more ''pramāthīni''; they are controlled. ''Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]). When your ''indriyas'' are purified, then it will be only engaged in ''hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanam''. That is bhakti.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Rasa-varjaṁ raso 'py asya paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate'' ([[BG 2.59 (1972)|BG 2.59]]).

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Unless you have complete, I mean, God consciousness, ''paraṁ dṛṣṭvā'', till then, the ''rasa'' does not go, the very sting of your ''indriyas''. So it becomes sort of a vicious circle, sir, and it becomes very difficult to vacate from that today.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. ''Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate'' ([[CC Madhya 19.170|CC Madhya 19.170]]).

'''Dr. Patel:''' By ''bhakti'' you can break.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Bhakti'' means when you engage all your senses in the service of Hṛṣīkeśa. That is ''bhakti''. But that we cannot. We say: "Oh, I have got this duty, I have got that duty," not cent percent engaged.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Ananya-bhakti''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Ananya'', that is wanted. When cent percent engaged, that is ''ananya''. ''Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk'' ([[BG 9.30 (1972)|BG 9.30]]). If one takes to that position, ''ananya-bhāk'', then even there is some mistake, even there is some fault, still, ''sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ''—he becomes ''sādhu'', immediately. (break)

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . for God, for Kṛṣṇa, is ''bhakti''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, under the superior direction, not whimsically.

'''Dr. Patel:''' No.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Whimsical, you cannot do anything.

'''Dr. Patel:''' After complete surrender of the ''buddhi'' and mind . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . all the actions that are done in the service of God is ''bhakti'' . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. When . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' Without surrendering . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . the actions are not ''bhakti''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is the example in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. When Arjuna saw that, "Kṛṣṇa wants it positively. Never mind my . . ."

'''Dr. Patel:''' Then the ''kariṣye vacanam'' . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That is ''bhakti''. "Never mind I do not agree with Kṛṣṇa, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is ''bhakti''. Kṛṣṇa should be given preference. That is ''bhakti'', not my whimsical way. That is not ''bhakti''. And because we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving direction:

:''tad viddhi praṇipātena''
:''paripraśnena sevayā''
:''upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ''
:''jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ''
:([[BG 4.34 (1972)|BG 4.34]])

Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishnan, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Kṛṣṇa says.

'''Passerby:''' . . . (indistinct Hindi)

'''Prabhupāda:''' (to passerby) Hmm. (aside) You are very good devotee. ''Jaya''. Hare Kṛṣṇa. ''Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru'' ([[BG 18.65 (1972)|BG 18.65]]). So if one offers his ''namaskāra'', that is also taken into account, asset. ''Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt'' ([[BG 2.40 (1972)|BG 2.40]]).

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Dharmasya means that dharma'' which is affixed to find God is ''dharma''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is ''bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti'' ([[BG 18.55 (1972)|BG 18.55]]). You can understand Kṛṣṇa only by ''bhakti'', not by ''jñāna, yoga, karma''. So a little ''bhakti'' will help you to make further progress. It is . . . no . . . now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? ''Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti'' ([[BG 2.40 (1972)|BG 2.40]]).

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Nehābhikrama-nāśo 'sti.''

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Nāśo 'sti''. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.

Indian man(1): As soon as you start chanting, ''bhakti'' starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. But if we think that, "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.

'''Dr. Patel:''' First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Kṛṣṇa . . ."

'''Dr. Patel:''' I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Kṛṣṇa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, ego is . . .

'''Indian man (1):''' How will it go unless the chanting . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' Unless you surrender yourself.

'''Indian man (1):''' Even the chanting will go with that ego.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Ego, ego is there, but false and right.

'''Dr. Patel:''' False ego.

'''Prabhupāda:''' False ego is that, "I am Patel. I am Patel"

'''Dr. Patel:''' Hum kuch hai. (I am something.) (laughter)

'''Prabhupāda:''' And real ego is, "I am Kṛṣṇa's servant."

'''Indian man (1):''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is ego.

'''Indian man (1):''' Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So long I'll think that, "I am Patel. I am master of this man . . ." (Dr. Patel talking simultaneously) Koi baat hum . . . (There is something . . .)

'''Dr. Patel:''' Hum Kṛṣṇa bhakt hain. (We are devotees of Kṛṣṇa.) (laughter)

'''Prabhupāda:''' People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all ''upādhis''. So therefore ''bhakti'' begins when one is ''upādhi''-less. No more upādhi. ''Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ'' ([[CC Madhya 13.80|CC Madhya 13.80]]). That is real ego.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That is complete submersion of your ego. ''Dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsa.'' I mean, after Aapka śarīra bhi . . . (Even your body . . .) (break)

'''Prabhupāda:''' . . . ''mānasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpiluṅ tuwā pade, nanda-kiśora. Nanda-kiśora'' . . . Hamare paas jo kuch hai. Hai hi kya?. Ye ek sharir hai aur ek mind hai aur ek family hai. 'Manas deho geho' ab jo kuch hai ye sab samarpan, bas ho gaya. Hai to nahi kuch hamara sabhi aap hi ka hai. Baki hum samajhta hai ye hamara sharir hai, ye hamara mind hai aur ye hamara family hai, ye hamara state hai, bas itna hi. To Jo kuch hai wo sabi aap le lijiye, bas ho gaya. (Whatever we have. What do we have? We have this body, our mind and a family. "Manas deho geho"— now whatever we have we must surrender, that's all. We don't possess anything, everything belongs to You. But we understand that this is my body, this is my mind, this is my family, this is my state—that's all. So whatever we have, you take away everything, that's all.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' You hand over the steer of your "now."

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The next line is ''mārobi rākhobi, yo icchā tohārā''. Ab to hum sab de diya, ab jasia iccha aapka. Aap marna hai mar dijiye, rakhna hai rakh lijiye. (Now I have given up everything, now it is Your will. You want to kill me, kill me—You want to save me, save me.) This is surrender.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go, and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' So God will not ''marana'', will not kill. He will never maro, cannot maro. (He will never kill, cannot kill) . . . because you are at His very feet. There is a provision.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nahi God marega kyon? Jo kuch surrender karta nahin unko raksha karte hain (No, why will God kill? Those who don't surrender anything, he protects them as well.)

'''Dr Patel:''' To surrender ko kaisa nahi karega. (So how will not protect the one who is surrendered?)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yahi to sochna chahiye. (So you should contemplate on this.)

'''Dr Patel:''' Putna jo marne ayi thi usko bhi raksha kiya, usko bhi mukt kiya. (Putna, who had come to kill, Lord protected her as well, he delivered her.)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Bhagwan to sabko raksa karte hain. (God protects everyone.) ''Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān'' (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is supplying everything, without any surrendering. Jaise Government hai. Government jo prison house me hai usko khane ko nahi deta hai? Usko bhi khane ka, hospital jo bimar ho jaye, wo sab care leta hai. (Just like the Government. Does the Government not give food to people who are at the prison house? It give them food, hospital facilities are provided for the sick, they take care of everything.) But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. (break)

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . that will be a problem.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' One night Prabhupāda rang the buzzer, it was twelve-thirty.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' Prabhupāda was translating.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, sometimes earlier.

'''Dr. Patel:''' I get up at three-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Satva pradhaan me sleep kam hoti hai. In the mode of goodness, the quantity of sleep is less. You get less sleep in 'Satva pradhaan'.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is, ultimate success is ''nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau'', when you can conquer over ''nidrā'', sleeping; ''āhāra'', eating. Because animal life means ''āhāra nidrā bhaya maithuna''. And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. Kuch hai, ek cup chai nahi milne se pagal ho jate hain. (There are some who become crazy if they don't get a cup of tea.) In spiritual life . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' You'll have me drinking tea.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, everyone, not you.

'''Dr. Patel:''' I don't drink.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Spiritual life means . . . Teen roz ko khane ko nahi mila to parvah nahi. Aur nahi khayega to kya hoga. (If we don't eat for three days it doesn't matter. If we don't eat what will happen?) And Dhruva Mahārāja starved six months, a boy of five years old. It is possible. He did not eat. Simply ''tapasya''. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Agar khane ka phikar hota to America me thode hi ja sakte, ek paisa nahi tha. Kya khayega, kahan soyega.? Chalo bhagavan jo dega, dega, nahi dega to starve karenge, bas. (If I had been worried about eating then I wouldn't have gone to America, I didn't have a single penny. What to eat, where to sleep? Okay whatever God will provide, he will provide, if He doesn't give I will starve, that's all.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' That ''jñānī'', his wife worshiping . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. (break) ''Job hai visa''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' No, he had no job. He then searched out a job. In those days, there was no job visas there anywhere.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, during Partition . . . (break) . . . policy to attract these, all the intelligent class of Indian, to India . . . er . . .

'''Devotee (2):''' England.

'''Prabhupāda:''' There is job visa. They gave indiscriminately job visa, so that India will be vacant of all intelligent persons, and they cannot make . . . that was the policy.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Why they are going space? United States are giving also what we call job visa.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, not only. Everywhere I have seen. One who is qualified, he gets very easily job in Europe or America, high salaried. They get cheaper. Yes. What the Americans will accept for two thousand dollars, Indians will accept at seven hundred dollars.

'''Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:''' When Indians were asked to leave Uganda, the Canadian government offered free passage, but only to persons who had the material qualifications they wanted.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Qualified man is very much welcome in foreign countries. I have seen. In Canada, in America, in England, in Germany—everywhere. Because they have got so many jobs, they require so many qualified men. And here, where is so many jobs?

'''Dr. Patel:''' There are so many qualified men, but no jobs.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No jobs. (break)

'''Dr. Patel:''' You have to employ yourself, sir, here.

'''Prabhupāda:''' So many Ph.D.'s, they are loitering. Therefore they become Communists and this, what is called? Naxalites. Educated young boys, they have no job.

'''Dr. Patel:''' These two parts of India . . . (all speaking together)

'''Dr. Patel:''' Bengal and Kerala, they're highly educated communities. They are the, I mean, advanced Communists also, both the countries. In Gujarat there is no communism, though we are educated.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Jab koi dekhta hai ye Bengali hai, nahi-nahi koi nahi, kyonki wo janta hai ki aa kar ke naxalite kar dega sabko, ye bhi ek baat hai. (When they see that someone is a Bengali then they say no, no nothing - because they know that they will come and make everyone a naxalite. This is another thing.)

'''Indian man (1):''' Lekin ye Bengali log ka mind bahut . . . (But the mind of these Bengalis . . .)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nahi wo to jab bigad jata hai na to fir first-class bigad jata. When he is spoilt, then he is first-class spoilt.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Just like assassin is aside. I have seen it

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. And otherwise you will find Caitanya and other, so many big, big men, Rabindranath Tagore, Surendranath Bannerjee, Vivekananda, and so on, so on.

'''Indian man (1):''' Aurobindo was . . . Nikal gaya to nikal gaya nahi to . . . (If he goes then he goes or else . . .)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Aurobindo was condemned to death. Nahi bigda hua tha, bomb manufacture kar raha tha. (No he was spoilt, he was manufacturing a bomb.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' His brother.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, he.

'''Dr. Patel:''' No, sir, I think . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no, no. He was condemned to death, then C. R. Das saved him. Then he decided, "This politics has no value. Let me go to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." He dreamt at night, "Why you are bothering with these things?" This is the history. So just after getting off, the judge, immediately left.

'''Dr. Patel:''' He came back, Chandranagar, to his place.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Jab Gandhi jail me tha kitna dafa unko request kiya gaya tha ap aaiye. . . (When Gandhi was in jail, he was requested so many times to come . . .)

'''Dr. Patel:''' He never came. After ''svarājya'' he never came. He was asked . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' But that is all nonsense.

'''Dr. Patel:''' He was requested to come to Delhi, on 15th August '47. He refused.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is . . . (break)

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . find fulfillment there only, God consciousness.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt'' ([[SB 11.2.42|SB 11.2.42]]). This is the sign of ''bhakti'', that he has no more taste in anything material. That is ''bhakti''. Aur bhakt bhi bane, Rāmā-naam bhi kare aur politics me chale. Jo Rāmā ka bhakt hai sab ko sikhaya Rāmā ka bhakt bano wo politics mein kyon jayega. (He wants to become a devotee, he wants to chant holy names of the Lord and also join politics. One who is a devotee of the Lord, he will teach everyone devotion. Why should he enter politics?) This is not Bhakti.

'''Dr. Patel:''' And ''artha''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Dharma'' cannot be. Therefore ''Bhāgavata'' said, ''dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo'' ([[SB 1.1.2|SB 1.1.2]]). ''Dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa'' ([[SB 4.8.41]], [[CC Adi 1.90|CC Ādi 1.90]])—these are all cheating. These are all cheating. Yes. ''Dharma'' means you become . . . generally people go to temple to get some material gains: "O God, give us our daily bread." That is the idea. ''Dharma'' is to get some material profit. And why material profit? For sense gratification. ''Dharma, artha, kāma''. And when he's baffled in sense gratification, he wants to become one with God, ''mokṣa''. These are all cheating. Therefore Bhāgavata says, ''dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra'' ([[SB 1.1.2|SB 1.1.2]]). And Śrīdhara Svāmī says, ''atra mokṣa-vāñchām api nirastam''. So long one is stuck up even up to ''mokṣa-vāñchā'', he'll be . . . he is in trouble. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, ''sarva-dharmān parityajya'' ([[BG 18.66 (1972)|BG 18.66]]). Beginning from ''dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa'' ([[SB 4.8.41]], [[CC Adi 1.90|CC Ādi 1.90]]), you give up everything. Then you'll become purified. Even if you have got ''mokṣa-vāñchā'', then you are in the material world. Yes.

'''Indian man (3)''': Then we get ''parā bhakti''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Therefore ''Bhagavad-gītā'' says:

:''brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā''
:''na śocati na kāṅkṣati''
:''samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu''
:''mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām''
:([[BG 18.54 (1972)|BG 18.54]])

When one is actually in liberated position, ''mokṣa, brahma-bhūtaḥ'', from that platform ''bhakti'' begins.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu''. He has realized presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, ''samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu'' means he knows that everyone is spirit soul, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and this body is simply external tabernacle. That is ''samaḥ sarveṣu''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Not visualizing the presence of God everywhere?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Presence of God is there. When God's part and parcel . . . Aap ka ungli hai to aap bhi hain. Khali ungli to hota nahi. Ek aadmi ka ungli ka kuch treatment kar rahe hain to uska mane ungli bhi hai jiska vo ungli hai wo bhi hai. This is vision. Dekhiye idhar surya ka ansh bhi hai ninety million miles away to surya bhi hai isko samajhne me koi mushkil hai kya. To surya ka kiran hai to surya bhi hai. (If your finger is there, then you are also there. Only the finger cannot exist. One man's finger is being treated which means that the person is there whose finger is being treated. This is vision. See here there is part of the Sun ninety million miles away, so the Sun is also there, is it difficult to understand this? So the sun's rays are there, so the sun is also there.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, this one question is asked by many people that, "How God can have ''aṁśas''? He is perfect. He cannot be divided into multiple parts."

'''Prabhupāda:''' He is not divided.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That is what I say.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, that is foolishness.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That is what I mean to say.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Just like . . . it is said, but they are foolish. They cannot understand ''śāstra''. ''Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate'' ([[ISO Invocation|Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]]). That the rascals, they do not understand. They think materially. Just like this flower. If I take little, little, little, then there is no flower. They are thinking like that. But here is the warning: ''pūrṇasya pūrṇam'' . . . even the whole flower is taken, still whole.

'''Dr. Patel:''' That is God.

'''Prabhupāda:''' That is God. They are materially thinking, "If God has bifurcated Himself in so many, everywhere, all-pervading, then where is God?" This is foolishness. That Kṛṣṇa says that,

:''mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ''
:''jagad avyakta-mūrtinā''
:''mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni''
:''na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ''
:([[BG 9.4 (1972)|BG 9.4]])

"Still I am separate." This is wanted. The example is there. Suppose a sunshine is there and throughout the whole universe, and if you say: "Now sun is finished," is sun finished? This is all foolishness. The sun is there; sun-god is there. Still, the sunshine is spread all over the universe.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya'' . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam'' . . . ([[ISO Invocation|Śrī Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]])

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . ''evāvaśiṣyate''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' He is distributing. This is material thing. He is distributing full light and full temperature for millions and millions of years, he is still the same. If it is possible for a material thing which is creation of God, how much it is possible for the Supreme? Therefore it is said . . .

'''Dr. Patel:''' Because God is present everywhere by His ''avyakta-mūrti'' and He is present in Goloka . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Vṛndāvana.

'''Dr. Patel:''' In His original form.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. ''Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ'' (BS 5.37). This is God. Not that . . . Jasie aap idhar hain aapka apartment me aap nahi hai. (Like you are present here, so you are not there in your apartment.) That is not God. God is in His apartment, at the same time everywhere. ''Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati'' ([[BG 18.61 (1972)|BG 18.61]]). That is God. Wo to God ko cheap bana liya hai na. (They have made God very cheap.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' He doesn't understand.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No. ''Mūḍho nābhijānāti'' Wo to bol diya hai. Wo mudha hai. They have already said, they are rascals. Without knowing God, they are becoming God.

'''Dr. Patel:''' God has made them ''mūḍhas'' by His ''māyā'', sir.

'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. They have become. They don't want to . . . ''na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante'' ([[BG 7.15 (1972)|BG 7.15]]). Jo bhakti nahi karte hai wo mudha rahega aajivan, janm-janmantar vo mudha hi rahega aur usko bolta hai hum tumko gyani bana dega, wo nahi karega. (Those who don't practice devotion, they remain rascals their whole life. Life after life they remain rascal and we say: "we will impart knowledge to you," but he doesn't come.) That is in . . . insisting. God isliye aata hai kuynki tum mudha rehta hai. (God comes because you remain a rascal.) ''Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati'' ([[BG 4.7 (1972)|BG 4.7]]). ''Dharmasya glāniḥ'' means when the people become ''mūḍha''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Yes.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. But He comes to give him intelligence, but he will not take it. He wants that "I shall remain a ''mūḍha''." "All right, you remain."

'''Dr. Patel:''' Sir, God incarnates for many purposes, not only . . . (indistinct) . . . but for protecting . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' This is the total . . . total purpose is ''paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām'' ([[BG 4.8 (1972)|BG 4.8]]). To ye material nahi hai, mudha hai. (So he is not a materialist, he is a rascal.)

'''Dr. Patel:''' I am going to ask you a bad question . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' . . . that if God wanted to destroy the rascals and ''mūḍhas'', He could have done by His finger.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Why does He come here? He comes here . . . Lad ladane ko, aap ke jaisa bhakton ke liye lad ladane ke liye Bhagavan incarnation leta hai. (To distribute love, to love his devotees like you, God incarnates.) Am I right?

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' It is not only for killing the . . .

'''Prabhupāda:''' Otherwise, how He can give contact? Contact.

'''Dr. Patel:''' He could have done it from there only.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Nahi wo to ek ishara se. (No, that he can do just by His glance.) Actually to give him favor.

'''Dr. Patel:''' To fir ye kyun ate hain. (So why does he come?)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Wo ate hain . . . (He comes . . .) actually to give him favor.

'''Dr. Patel:''' To favor the ''bhaktas'', sir.

'''Prabhupāda:''' Not only ''bhaktas'', even ''abhaktas''—by killing them. Yes.

'''Dr. Patel:''' Ha. (laughs)

'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, that is also favor. Kyunki Bhagvan jisko marte hain wo sidhe brahmlok me chale jate hain. (Because those who are killed by God, they go to Brahma's abode immediately.) ''Mukti'' immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Kṛṣṇa in the battlefield, they were all ''muktas'' immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Kṛṣṇa, so they become all delivered.

'''Dr. Patel:''' They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pāṇḍavas, they said, that "Those people actually was . . . by death, in presence of Kṛṣṇa. They saw their life by . . ."

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Svarūpa''.

'''Dr. Patel:''' ''Svarūpa''.

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ'' ([[SB 2.10.6|SB 2.10.6]]). That is ''mukti''. When one is situated in his own original, constitutional position, that is called ''mukti''. ''Svarūpeṇa mukti. Muktir hitvānyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ''. This is ''mukti''. (end)

760415 - Morning Walk - Bombay