View source for 730811 - Conversation - Paris

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[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - Europe]]
[[Category:Lectures, Conversations and Letters - Europe, France - Paris]]
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<div style="float:left">[[File:Go-previous.png|link=Category:Conversations - by Date]]'''[[:Category:Conversations - by Date|Conversations by Date]], [[:Category:1973 - Conversations|1973]]'''</div>
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<div class="code">730811R1-PARIS - August 11, 1973 - 56:01 Minutes</div>


<mp3player>https://s3.amazonaws.com/vanipedia/full/1973/730811R1-PARIS.mp3</mp3player>


'''Prabhupāda:''' His name was Gopal Ban. Gopal Ban. And there was a king, Kṛṣṇacandra. So the kings would relax by joking words by the jokers. That was system formerly. So Gopal Ban was constructing a house. So the king advised another friend that, "If you go to his new house and evacuate"—because the house is not yet opened, not yet established—"then I'll give you one thousand rupees."
 
So this man said: "Yes, I'll go and do it." So he was . . . he came to Gopal Ban's house and began to say: "Gopal Ban! Oh! I am called by nature. Kindly show me where is your privy. I have to pass." So he could understand that, "Why this man has come here to evacuate?" So he, "Yes, yes. Come in, come in, come in." So he opened the new lavatory and brought a big stick. So he said, "Why you have brought the stick?" "Yes, you can pass, you can pass stool, but if you urine one drop, I'll kill you." (laughter)
 
So "How it is possible?" "If it is not possible, I cannot allow." So these, these foolish scientific men, "You can speak, but if you use microphone, then I'll kill you." (laughter) Yes. The Gopal Ban's policy. They would not say: "Not allow," but in a different way.
 
(break) . . . for political diplomacy. Not directly "No," but creating such position it is not.
 
(aside to girl) You are chanting also? Sixteen rounds? Eh?
 
'''Boy:''' I'm trying the best I can.
 
Haṁsadūta: He says trying the best to do so.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' All right. Something is better than nothing. (break) . . . of our morning lecture, you can question if you like. ''Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor jñānam'' ([[BG 13.3 (1972)|BG 13.3]]).
 
Shivananda: I had one question about the nature of transcendental knowledge. And it said in ''Bhagavad-gītā'' that transcendental knowledge is of a nature that it is like fire. It burns to ashes the reactions to sinful activity. But—it may be sort of a nonsense question—but I couldn't understand how it is, what . . . how it, how . . . what is the nature of knowledge that it can do this? How does transcendental knowledge burn to ashes the reactions of sinful . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. If you always engage your mind in transcendental topics, naturally all other nonsense topics will be stopped. Or you'll have no interest in such topics. That is burned down. ''Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anya'' . . . ([[SB 11.2.42|SB 11.2.42]]). That is the test. If you increase your devotion, then you'll be not interested in ordinary things. Just like our devotees, they are no more interested in the worldly topics. They do not like to go to the cinema. That is no more interest. We can see the film of Ratha-yātrā, but we are no more interested to see ordinary film.
 
Bhagavān: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the word ''kṣetrajña'' . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Bhagavān: ''Kṣetrajña'', the knower of the body.
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Kṣetrajña''.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Kṣetrajña''.
 
Bhagavān: ''Kṣetrajña''. Is that for one who is differentiating himself from this body? In other words, a person who has realized that there is field and there is knower, is he given that title, or is the person who cannot make that distinction, is he also given that title?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Anyone who knows that . . . that I have explained, that everyone is sitting on the floor, so everyone knows that he is not floor; he's different from the floor. Is it very difficult?
 
Bhagavān: No.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' So this is knower. Similarly, by common sense we can understand that we are not this body.
 
Yogeśvara: It says in the purport, "Now the person who identifies himself with the body is called ''kṣetrajña'', the knower of the field."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Yogeśvara: In the purport it says: "The body is called ''kṣetra'', or the field of activity for the conditioned soul, and the person who identifies himself with the body is called ''kṣetra'' . . . ''kṣetrajña'', the knower of the field."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. It is wrongly written.
 
Yogeśvara: Ah. It's everyone, everyone.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no.
 
Yogeśvara: Not just those people.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Identifies with the body, he's not ''kṣetrajña''.
 
Yogeśvara: He does not know.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. It is wrongly written.
 
Bhagavān: That was my question. This was my question.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Ah. Oh, it is wrongly written.
 
Bhagavān: From the lecture, from lecture, when one can . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Who does not identify, it should be.
 
Yogeśvara: Who does not identify. Yes.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Oh, it is wrong.
 
Bhagavān: That's always questioned in ''Bhagavad-gītā''.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' It is not . . . has been mis-edited. If you identify with body, how you know it? Oh, it is a very great mistake.
 
Bhagavān: We can . . . we can write them, make that correction.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Write immediately. One must know that, "I am not this body." That is knowledge. That is knower. That is common sense. I say: "It is my body." I don't say "I body." That I explained. One who does . . . one who knows that "I am not this body," he's real knower. And one who knows that, "I am this body," he does not know. He's in ignorance. Just like Danielou.
 
Yogeśvara: A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he can maintain his position in family, government, business, anything.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Why not? All these Pāṇḍavas, they were government big men. How they maintained Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja . . . they were fighting for political reasons. So they were Kṛṣṇa conscious, fully. Now who identifies with this body, he's described as cow or ass. How he can be knower? It is wrongly edited. That word "not." It was edited by whom? Hayagrīva?
 
Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva.
 
Bhagavān: Jayādvaita.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh? Eh?
 
Haṁsadūta: Hayagrīva also . . .
 
Bhagavān: Hayagrīva and Jayādvaita.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' This should be corrected immediately. (break)
 
Bhagavān: He asked you a question about transcendental knowledge, and actually you explained that knowledge is not one thing, but it's composed of three things: it is the object, the knower and the process. That is all knowledge.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Knower, knowledge and the object. The object is Kṛṣṇa and you are knower, or trying to know. And the process is ''bhakti''. That's all. If you want to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you have to adopt the process of ''bhakti''. No other process. It is clearly stated in the ''Bhagavad-gītā'': ''bhaktyā mām abhijānāti'' ([[BG 18.55 (1972)|BG 18.55]]). No other process. No speculative philosophy or meditation. It is not possible. So ''bhakti'' is the process, you are the knower, and Kṛṣṇa is knowable. That's all.
 
(break) . . . vādī, impersonalists, they say ultimately the knower, knowable and the known becomes one. That is their philosophy. Monist. There is no more knower, no knowable, the knower . . . simply knowledge. They say simply knowledge. Oneness.
 
Yogeśvara: You quoted . . . in the course of your lecture this morning, you quoted that verse from the Tenth Chapter, ''dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam'' ([[BG 10.10 (1972)|BG 10.10]]). When that knowledge comes, the devotee is qualified by some degree of advancement?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The more he's qualified, the direction comes from Kṛṣṇa.
 
Yogeśvara: And what is the . . . what form does that direction take?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Yogeśvara: And what form does that direction take?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' In whichever way. The real direction is that he may come back to home, back to Godhead, after giving up this body.
 
Yogeśvara: Is that ''buddhi'', that intelligence, manifested in some way in his service, or in his thinking?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Yes. Because the process is devotion, ''bhakti. Bhakti'' means not idle. Activities. ''Bhakti'' is not idle gossip. It is something activity. Therefore ''karmīs'' sometimes misunderstand that they are working like us. So where is the . . . what does it mean, ''bhakti''? Just like Arjuna is fighting. But ordinary man will see that "He's a soldier, he's fighting—where is his ''bhakti''?" But Kṛṣṇa certifies, "Yes, you are My devotee." By fighting, he's devotee. Because he's fighting for Kṛṣṇa, therefore it is ''bhakti''. Similarly, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, whatever you do, that is ''bhakti. Karmīs'' cannot see. ''Karmīs'' see . . . (break) . . . and ''vaidikī'' means according to Vedic instruction. Whatever you do, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, then it is ''bhakti''.
 
Yogeśvara: ''Laudikī'' and ''vaidi'' . . .?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Laukikī. Laukikī'' means ordinary, common activities. And ''vaidikī'' means Vedic. Just like a man is doing business as motorcar. So he has to do business as other motorcar dealers do. So this is ''laukikī''. It is not ''vaidikī''. In ''vaidika'' instruction, there is no such thing that, "You do motor business like this." Therefore it is ''laukikī''. So either ''laukikī'' or ''vaidikī'', if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, it is ''bhakti''. Kṛṣṇa also says, ''yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad'' . . . ([[BG 9.27 (1972)|BG 9.27]]). ''Yat karoṣi'' means whatever you do . . . "Whatever" means the activity must be ''laukikī'' or ''vaidikī''. "Whatever." There is no restriction, that only ''vaidikī''. No. Even ''laukikī''. Whatever you do. Find out this verse: ''yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi tapasyasi yat''.
 
Haṁsadūta:
 
:''yat karoṣi yad aśnāsi''
:''yaj juhoṣi dadāsi yat''
:''yat tapasyasi kaunteya''
:''tat kuruṣva mad arpaṇam''
:([[BG 9.27 (1972)|BG 9.27]])
 
"O son of Kuntī, all that you do, all that you eat, all that you offer and give away, as well as all austerities that you may perform, should be done as an offering unto Me."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Purport.
 
Haṁsadūta: Purport: "This is the duty of everyone to mold his life in such a way that he will not forget Kṛṣṇa in any circumstance. Everyone has to work for maintenance of his body and soul together, and Kṛṣṇa recommends herein that one should work for Him. Everyone has to eat something to live. Therefore he should accept the remnants of foodstuffs offered to Kṛṣṇa. Any civilized man has to perform some religious . . ."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' "You give Me. Whatever you eat, you give Me," Kṛṣṇa says.
 
Haṁsadūta: "Any civilized man has to perform some religious ritualistic ceremonies. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends . . ."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' This is ''vaidikī''.
 
Haṁsadūta: ". . . 'Do it for Me.' "
 
Bhagavān: ''Vaidikī''.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
 
Haṁsadūta: ". . . and this is called ''arcanā''. Everyone has a tendency to give something in charity. Kṛṣṇa says: 'Give it to Me.' And this means that all surplus money accumulated should be utilized in furthering the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nowadays people are very much inclined to the meditational process, which is not practical in this age. But if anyone practices meditating on Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa ''mantra'' around his beads, he is surely . . . he is surely the greatest ''yogī'', as substantiated by the Sixth Chapter of ''Bhagavad-gītā''."
 
Yogeśvara: Just like there was that Professor Kotovsky who was raising an objection. He was saying that your four-class system may work well in a simple agrarian culture like in India, but here, where things are much more complicated, it would never work.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' It is already there. He is Professor Wise. (laughter) That is their rascaldom. They are doing the same thing, but still they are decrying the process. "Why you have become professor? You remain ordinary worker. There is no need of professor." Why he has become professor of Indology? And there is two . . . amongst the workers also, there are two classes: manager class, worker class. You have to divide. Without division . . .
 
(break) Just like this body is not a lump of matter. There is division. Without division, the body cannot work.
 
Yogeśvara: So that's no excuse, that there is . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' That means . . . these rascals, they have simply imperfect knowledge. Still, they are leader. That is our protest that, "Why you become leader? You have got so many imperfections. Why you are cheating people?" That is our protest. "You have no perfect knowledge. Still, you become leader. Why? Why you are cheating men like that?" Just like the professor who was speaking that by four . . . combination of four chemicals, life has come.
 
And as soon as he was challenged that, "If I give you these four chemicals, whether you can produce life?" he said: "That I cannot say." Then what is the use of speaking like that? So they're cheating, and people are being cheated. Still, they're given Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a big man." This is going on. They'll talk all nonsense; at, at the same time, they'll become professor, teacher. And people will accept. So at least let us protest against this system.
 
Bhagavān: (aside) Guru-gaurāṅga, that ''kīrtana'' is too loud . . . (indistinct) . . . there was a professor who came to see you in London, the religion professor . . . (indistinct) 
 
Haṁsadūta: Professor Hardy.
 
Bhagavān: (indistinct) . . . He said that, "Many times, my students ask me questions that I do not know. So I try to answer." But you said: "If you do not know, you should not teach." You said: "Our philosophy is that if you do not know, you should step down." He said: "I cannot do that."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' He's getting salary, money. No sincerity.
 
Bhagavān: So actually a devotee has an answer for every question.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is devotee, who can answer any question. Everything is discussed in the ''Bhagavad-gītā''. Everything, complete knowledge. Now in ''Bhagavad-gītā'' it is said that this cosmic manifestation . . . now you find out this verse: ''mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram'' ([[BG 9.10 (1972)|BG 9.10]]). ''Mayā. M-a-y-ā.''
 
'''Devotee:''' Still too loud.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
'''Devotee:''' It's too loud downstairs. There have been complaints from the neighbors.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Loud, they are very good. How can you stop it? As soon as you chant, somebody . . . that you cannot check. You may stop ''mṛdaṅga'', that's all.
 
Haṁsadūta:
 
:''mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ''
:''sūyate sa-carācaram''
:''hetunānena kaunteya''
:''jagad viparivartate''
:([[BG 9.10 (1972)|BG 9.10]])
 
"This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' So when Kṛṣṇa is directing, is it aimless? The whole cosmic manifestation, is it aimless? There is some purpose. Otherwise, why God has created, and He's directing? These people, they cannot understand it.
 
Yogeśvara: They'll challenge. They have arguments.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' What is that?
 
Yogeśvara: They will say that, "If you . . ." Just like . . . actually things . . . there is no order behind things. If you throw a ball against a wall . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Who is, rascal, throwing that ball? Who is that, rascal, throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball?
 
Yogeśvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing.
 
Bhagavān: The original thrower.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
 
Shivananda: What they said in East Berlin . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Shivananda: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
 
Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Matter is . . . what is that? Let us understand this point.
 
Shivananda: What they were saying was that, that there is no God behind everything . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Now why not? Can, can . . . have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
 
Shivananda: Well, that's what they say.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' They say that rascaldom. That word say.
 
Shivananda: I just say what they say.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' But you are saying . . . was this tape recorder was existing, or somebody has prepared?
 
Yogeśvara: A man has prepared it.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Man has prepared it. Then somebody must prepare.
 
Yogeśvara: But it's man's intelligence that has created that machine.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Well, man or somebody, but try to understand generally: anything that you see, that is created by man or beast or somebody. It is created. So this cosmic manifestation, why do you say that it is not created? It is created. You do not know who has created. That is your ignorance. But as I have no experience, in this material world, which is not created . . . it is created. You are created. Still. How can you say it is not created?
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: But then the profane, Prabhupāda, they say that "Let us carry that logic to the very end, that even God is created. Then why . . . you say God is having no . . ."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. No. God is created, you can say. But when a created thing is, then he's not God. Our, our proposition is that everything is created, but finally if we find somebody He's not created, then He's God.
 
Yogeśvara: They would say—our conclusion was just now that everything has to have been created.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Yogeśvara: Everything has some source of origin.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
 
Yogeśvara: So if everything has some source of origin, how can there be something that does not have a source of origin?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, when there is no source of origin, that is God.
 
Bhagavān: Just like Kṛṣṇa showed Arjuna His universal form. So He established that He was the origin of everything, and He had no cause.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Cause of all causes. ''Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam'' (Bs. 5.1). Everything has some cause, but when you finally come to a thing who has no cause, then He's God.
 
Bhagavān: The rascals . . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Vedānta-sūtra'': ''janmādyasya yataḥ'' ([[SB 1.1.1|SB 1.1.1]]), the origin of everything. But He's not originated from something else. And that is God. Therefore He's called Absolute. Everything here is relative, and God is absolute. That is the difference between absolute and relative.
 
Bhagavān: They are like children. They want to see that . . . they are like children. They want to see that original cause immediately. And if they do not see the original cause immediately, they say there is no original cause.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' That is childish. That is childish.
 
Yogeśvara: So let's say someone proposes that God has created everyone equal.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?
 
Yogeśvara: "God has created everyone equal. God has created all of His children as equal spiritual beings. So why is it that one person is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious, and I have no interest in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Then we're not equal, there's some flaw in God's creation."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, that is your flaw. That is your flaw. God says that, "You simply surrender unto Me." But does it mean that everyone is surrendering to God?
 
Yogeśvara: No. Then they're not equal.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Yogeśvara: Then God's creations are not . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, no. That, that . . . suppose I have got ten sons or so many disciples. I say that, "You do this." Somebody may not do it. That independence everyone has got. So after being so-called independent, when he does not do according to the instruction of God, he becomes different. God has created everyone equally, but when he disobeys the order of God, then he becomes different. Where is the flaw in this statement? I say every one of my student that, "Don't do this." But if somebody does it, then he becomes different.
 
Haṁsadūta: Yes. Their argument is . . . they will say that just the fact that the living entity has the independence and, and the possibility is there for him to make a mistake, they consider it to be a flaw.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
 
Yogeśvara: If it's better to be . . .
 
Haṁsadūta: But they consider it to be God's flaw.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No, why God's flaw?
 
Yogeśvara: Because He has given us the chance to fall down.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Independence means that you may obey me or not obey me. It is not my flaw. Otherwise, independence has no meaning. Independence has no meaning. If I give you independence . . . just like Kṛṣṇa is giving independence to Arjuna, "Now I have explained to you. Now I give you independence. Either you accept or not accept, that is your position." So if this independence has no such quality, accept or . . . that is not independence. If one has to be forced by the law of God, that is not independence. Then one does not know what is the meaning of independence.
 
Yogeśvara: Then why has He given us independence if . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes, He must give, because we, He, He has got . . .
 
Yogeśvara: . . . if we misuse it?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' He has got, He's the Supreme Independent, and living entities are part and parcel of God. Therefore we must have independence. Otherwise, how it be he becomes perfect part and parcel?
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: And so if he did not have independence, that would be the flaw.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. That will be the fault.
 
Bhagavān: That makes everything complete.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. Independence means that you can do or not do. That is independence.
 
Bhagavān: Their definition of perfect is wrong. Just like this boy's definition of a poet . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' He's a rascal. He's simply bogus. He's trying to . . . there are so many parties like that. They're four or five, they make a group and imitate these Beatle. As if . . . Beatles have made money; they'll also make money. That is the . . . and speak all nonsense. That's all. These are crazy fellow. So independence means that you can do or not do. Just like you, as a nation, American nation or English nation, you are all independent. But why you go to the jail? Is it government's fault that you go to the jail? Therefore government has fault? Why is this nonsense question? When a man, instead of going to the university, goes to the police custody, is it government's fault? Is it?
 
Haṁsadūta: No.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Then? It is a commonsense affair. The God has given you independence. If you do something wrong, against the will of God, then you must suffer. Therefore we find so many varieties of living entities, in different grades of life. That is due to misuse of independence.
 
Yogeśvara: Very popular today is the idea that if we are use . . . misusing our independence, it's because of our upbringing, our childhood, our society; something is wrong in our psychology. Not that it's soul, not that it's a question of spiritual problem, but material one, that our parents were cruel or our society, our education was imperfect or something. But not spiritual problem.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' So that is independence. Your parents were cruel; therefore you have revolted against the parents. That is your independence. Why you revolted against parents? Because you have got the independence.
 
Shivananda: What shall we say to someone, Prabhupāda . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that, "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.
 
Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm?
 
Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Not lost. Misused.
 
Haṁsadūta: Fallen into ''māyā''. Or misused.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that ''sarva-dharmān'' . . . "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concession. Immediately you are free from all reaction, and come back to Me." Therefore God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here.
 
Bhagavān: The trouble with these philosophies is these philosophers are simply stubborn.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Bhagavān: The problem with these different discussions is these philosophers are simply stubborn. When they hear a better philosophy, they still will not change.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' That, that is independence. That is also independence. You accept, "Yes, what you say, it is right. But I'll not accept." That is also independence, misuse of independence.
 
Yogeśvara: Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra, when he heard the arguments from Vidura.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. So God's creation is perfect. There is no imperfect.
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: Does there come a time, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when one misuses independence, the independence is taken away? For example, if . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Now why shall He take away. What He has given to you, why He shall take away?
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: In animal life?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: Animal life?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Animal life, what is that?
 
Yogeśvara: Do animals also have independence?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. They have got little independence.
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say: "All is instinct."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' You say, they say, all rascals say. But actually this is independence, but because they're animals, they are directed by nature, more or less. Just like they do not . . . my point is they do not misuse independence as much as a human being does. You see? Just like a tiger. He is to eat animals, killing animals. He does not come to your orchard to steal your fruits. But you, rascal human being, you eat fruits and animals both. Animal, that is instinct. Animal . . .
 
Suppose if you put—I've given this example many times—a bag of rice on the street. Many birds will come. But he will eat some grains, five grains, ten grains and twenty grains, as much he can eat, and go away. But you do the same favor to the human being, there will be fight. Everyone will try to take some more quantity in the house and stock it. Therefore the human being is more responsible for sinful activities.
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: So the rascal thinks that independence, the manifestation, the symptom of independence is to misuse independence.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' What?
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: He thinks the symptom . . . "I am independent. I will show you I am independent. I will misuse my independence."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. There's . . . just like you are a citizen of French government, you are also independent. If the government says that, "If you do this, then you'll be punished," so when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.
 
Guru-gaurāṅga: So real independence means to surrender, then.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. To authority. Because you have to surrender. If you don't surrender to God, then you have to surrender to ''māyā''. Just like you don't surrender to government, then you have to surrender to the superintendent of jail. That's all. If you misuse your independence, you'll not be happy. This is the fact. But you have got the independence. You can misuse it. That is your prerogative. That is your freedom. Freedom means you must have independence. But because you are not absolutely independent, so you suffer.
 
The Absolute Independent is God, Kṛṣṇa. Just like government. The government orders, "Let this crowd be shot. Let there be bullet shot." Hundreds of men die. But government is not responsible for such death. But if you kill one man, you'll be responsible. So your independence is subordinate independence. Similarly, all living entities, they have been given independence by God, but his independence is subordinate to the independence of God. This is our position, ''jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa'' ([[CC Madhya 20.108-109]]).
 
Yogeśvara: There are so many young people who, when we try to preach to them Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we explain that it means to accept the position of service, service position, they reject it because they have no experience of service that is satisfying.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hmm? They have rejected so many things. Why not your proposal? Just like the hippies: they have rejected so many things. Why shall he accept your proposal? Why you think that your proposal is so nice, he'll accept immediately?
 
Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach to them.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Eh?
 
Yogeśvara: That doesn't mean we don't preach . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' You preach. You just purify them. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Let him hear. Then he'll accept. Then he will gradually come. Yes. He's now in diseased condition. The best thing is to chant. By hearing the Hare Kṛṣṇa ''mantra'', he'll be gradually purified, cleansed, ''ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam'' ([[CC Antya 20.12|CC Antya 20.12]]). You must polish him. Just like this is unclean. Polish it, and you'll see the reflection. Our process is ''paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam''. (break) . . . ''śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi'' . . . ([[SB 1.2.17|SB 1.2.17]]).
 
Yogeśvara: ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.'' 

'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam''.
 
Yogeśvara: Second Chapter.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām.''
 
Yogeśvara: Verse number seven, Second Chapter.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Everyone is diseased. So you have to give the medicine, and gradually he'll be cured. Just like when I came first, nobody was my devotee. But the medicine was given, little, little, little, and they became. So you cannot immediately expect that everyone will hear your words. Why? What you are? Why shall he respect you? Cure them. What is that? You have got it?
 
Haṁsadūta: No.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' In the First Part, there is. ''Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ'' ([[SB 1.2.17|SB 1.2.17]]). ''Kīrtana. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ''. If one hears from you . . . he doesn't do. If he simply hears Hare Kṛṣṇa ''mantra'', then he'll be purified. Simply by hearing.
 
Bhagavān: But we can understand that even though we present so many good arguments, philosophically, if a person still does not accept, it is simply because he is addicted to sinful activity. So therefore there's nothing other to do than chant.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Hearing is the first. ''Saṅkīrtana''. Let him . . . give, give him chance for hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa.
 
Haṁsadūta:
 
:''śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ''
:''puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ''
:''hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi''
:''vidhunoti suhṛt satām''
:([[SB 1.2.17|SB 1.2.17]])
 
"Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart, and the benefactor of the truthful devotee . . ."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' The Paramātmā . . . ''kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi'' ([[BG 13.3 (1972)|BG 13.3]]). He's also ''kṣetrajña.'' He's also in the body. So here He does His work. ''Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ.'' Yes. Read the translation.
 
Haṁsadūta: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes. And the chanting and hearing goes on. And if one agrees to hear and chant, then Kṛṣṇa helps from within. He cleanses. ''Suhṛt satām''. Because He wants to reform them. ''Suhṛt satām.'' Everyone, especially the devotee. So He helps cleanse him. In this way, if he's given chance to hear, again and again, then the next verse . . . see.
 
Haṁsadūta: The next verse?
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' Yes.
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu nityaṁ bhāgavata'' . . . ([[SB 1.2.18|SB 1.2.18]]).
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu.'' His heart is filled up with so many dirty things. So by that process, when he agrees to hear, chanting and hearing . . . therefore we say: "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." I say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and we ask others to chant. Response. By this process, his heart becomes cleansed. And next verse says, ''naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu''. Not that it has become completely cleansed. A little, or almost cleansed. ''Naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu.''
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā''.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' By this process, ''nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā'', by hearing the message of Kṛṣṇa, ''Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam''—that is also about Kṛṣṇa—chanting about Kṛṣṇa, ''nityam'', daily, regularly, ''nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā''.
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Bhagavaty uttama-śloke'' . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī.'' Then he becomes fixed up in devotional service. Not that he has completely become cleansed. Even little cleansed, then he will be engaged. Then he will hear, "What does he say?" Unclean, how he can take up?
 
Haṁsadūta: He can't accept it.
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' No. Unclean. Therefore we make more cleaner, cleaner, cleaner, cleaner. The more he becomes cleansed, he can understand. He'll accept. But unclean state, you do not expect. So the process of cleanliness is this ''ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ, paraṁ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṅkīrtanam'' ([[CC Antya 20.12|CC Antya 20.12]]). The more they read literature, the more hear, more chanting, in this way, gradually. Then next verse?
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Tadā rajas-tamo'' . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye'' ([[SB 1.2.19|SB 1.2.19]]).
 
Haṁsadūta: ''Ceta etair'' . . .
 
'''Prabhupāda:''' ''Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati.'' In this way, as the heart becomes cleansed, he revives his quality of goodness. And when he's situated in the quality of goodness, the other two qualities, passion and ignorance, cannot infect him. By this process. ''Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ.'' The example is ''kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye.'' When one is too much affected with the ''rajo-guṇa'' and ''tamo-guṇa'', passion and ignorance . . . what is this ''kāma''? Lusty and greediness.
 
These are the symptoms of ''rajas-tamo-guṇa.'' So then therefore we see that all people are lusty and greedy. So as soon as he becomes cleansed, come to the standard of goodness, these two qualities cannot affect him anymore. ''Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye'' ([[SB 1.2.19|SB 1.2.19]]). One has to take the process. And it is simple process. Simple.
 
And that, that is actually happening, in our practical experience. "They say, they say . . ." They are all rascals, fools. They can say anything and everything. ''Pāgale ki nā bole chāgale ki na khāyā''. In the Bengali it is said: "A madman, what does he not speak?" He speaks any nonsense. "And a goat, what does he not eat?" So if you keep a madman . . . they are keeping them mad . . . that is our protest, that why you are keeping all people mad, crazy, nonsense? And you are also teacher, university? They have no knowledge so what is the aim of life. That you have to protest.
 
So as we gradually increase our strength, our number, we have to protest to the world that "Why you, rascal and fools, keeping the whole human society in darkness? You have no knowledge. Here God says that, 'Under My direction the ''prakṛti'' is working.' You have no knowledge. You are saying that there is no aim." Without aim, why God should create this, such a big gigantic manifestation. Why He should take responsibility? Is there no responsibility to maintain this gigantic . . .? God has got immense power. He can maintain. That is another thing. But why He should take the responsibility?
 
Just like government creates a big prison house. It is not for nothing. There is some aim. Otherwise, why government should keep such establishment, huge establishment? It is not something faith. They have to be given cloth and shelter and everything, the arrangement. Similarly, such gigantic universal manifestation, millions and millions are living entities are there. They have to be trained up. They have to be provided with all necessities of life. This responsibility's there.
 
And actually God is doing that. He's giving food. He's giving necessities. Why? There is some aim. The aim is that they have misused their independence. Try to reform them again . . . (indistinct) . . . this is the aim. All these living entities in the material world, they have misused their independence.
 
Therefore they are material world. Otherwise why should we remain in the material world? Anyone who is in this material world, it is to be understood that he's misused his independence. Hmm? . . . (indistinct) 
 
(devotees offer obeisances) (end)