720512 - Conversation - Honolulu

Conversations by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

720512R1-HONOLULU - May 12, 1972 - 23:23 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . a giant demon who could, er, I mean to say—what is called?—draw, or shove, or push the earthly planet into the water of Garbhodaka Ocean. He is not an ordinary being. But although he was very strong, just like mountain, the example is given, the mountain is broken into pieces by the thunderbolt. Everything is there in nature’s law, and by Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement. Nature is not independent. Nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10).

(This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.)

We may not be amazed when there is a big thunderbolt falling on the mountain and breaking into pieces. This wonderful act is being done by nature, but behind the nature the order is of Kṛṣṇa.

So whenever there is mention of an incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa, there is specific duty. This is the specific duty. This is not possible to be done. When Lord Rāmacandra, His specific duty was to kill Rāvaṇa and to construct a bridge over the ocean, this is not possible by ordinary man. Similarly, incarnation means something done which is not possible by anybody else. That is the test. So anyone, rascal, comes . . . but ordinarily, there . . . because people are so poor in knowledge that any magic shown, they think this is not ordinary thing: "I cannot do it." Little magical feats makes the incarnation. But not so . . . that is ordinary. If a magician can show something, and if another person exhibits the same talent, that does not mean he has become God. Suppose if one man can walk on the ocean—that is of course not very ordinary thing—but there are many big, big ships, they are also moving on the ocean. So that does not mean one has become God. Very extraordinary work. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . to pick up the whole earthly planet from the depths of Garbhodaka Ocean. There is other reason.

So in this way, every day it is . . . our Bhāgavata is there, and the transliteration is there, word meaning is there—they should be read. Not that it is meant for simply selling. That we should also read.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: There are so many verses. We have taken so much pain to transliterate them, to give them word meanings and the purports, plus they must be instructed, discourses. Sanskrit, when pronounced, the vibration will create an atmosphere, nice atmosphere, Sanskrit. These are not ordinary Sanskrit; they are mantras. Every verse of Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they are Vedic mantras. The chanting of Vedic mantras has its effect. Just like chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has effect, similarly these mantras also chanted congregationally, it will have so much effect. So in the morning I think these classes should be held. (pause) (Prabhupāda sings)

yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥstunvanti divyaiḥ stavair

vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ

dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino

yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ

(SB 12.13.1)

So, any questions?

Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says here in the purport, "A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa, and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean." "The great exploiter of the gold rush"?

Prabhupāda: What is that "Gold rush"? Gold rush?

Śyāmasundara: Gold rush means to exploit gold from the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are after gold. They created some disturbance. Hiraṇya means "gold," Hiraṇya-akṣa: "Whose eyes are only on the gold": "Where is gold?" Hiraṇyakaśipu, there is no question of money and women, that’s all. They are demons. The whole world is now full of demons only. They are after money and women, that’s all. Woman does not mean this form of woman. A man also can become women. If the two parties, one party is trying to enjoy the other party, that is man and women. It does not mean the form of women and man. Just like nowadays, in your country, the homosex is also introduced. So people are becoming so much degraded—simply after money and women. Money and women. These are Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa. They will spoil the whole world. And they are spoiling. That is the business of the demons. And our business is to create Vaiṣṇavas in amongst the demons. In Vaikuṇṭha, sura-asura acutya. Sura and asura, both of them. That is Vaikuṇṭha world. Asura can also be taught. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18).

These are asuras, very lowborn, less than the śūdrās, kirāta-hūṇ . . . but they can be also reformed, śudhyanti. They can be reformed. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that just like Hiraṇyākṣa, mining, demons drilling for oil, disturbing the floating condition of the earth. What will the result be?

Prabhupāda: The result will be destruction. Ultimately this material world will be destroyed.

(aside) What is those? Two buildings?

Devotee (2): Those are military radar.

Prabhupāda: So there is no thunderbolt on the radar?

Devotee (3): They put lightning rods.

Prabhupāda: Oh. There is lightning. So many ways, they are trying to save. But nature will not allow them to be saved. They must die. But the struggle for existence is that everyone is demon. The Vaiṣṇava, they do not attempt like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).

Dehāntara-prāptir, another achievement or another body. So a Vaiṣṇava is not disturbed. They simply reserve the prerogative to become a devotee. Never mind—next life. Hundreds of lives there may be. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi (CC Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4):

"Never mind, I will take My birth one after another." But the demons, they do not believe in God or God’s service or next life. These are the demons. They are thinking that this is the chance for sense enjoyment. Therefore they are trying to save in so many ways and engage the duration of life, as much as possible, varieties of sense gratification. This is demon. They don't know that after this body is finished, everything. So here is an opportunity to enjoy sense gratification. Therefore they are manufacturing so many varieties of sense gratification. They have no hope. And the Christian religion also says that they will go to hell or they will go to heaven. Destined. You have read Bible?

Devotee:(4) No.

Prabhupāda: So one is destined to go to heaven?

Devotee:(4) They’re teaching that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee:(4) They’re teaching that.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That one is destined? Then what is the use of taking to Jesus Christ if I am destined to go to hell?

Govinda dāsī: You can be saved from going to hell.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Then say that even though one is destined, he can be saved. That should be the philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He does. St. Paul does say that. He says it’s a mystery that although we are destined, still we can be saved.

Prabhupāda: That is reasonable. Taking to shelter of God or God’s son, one is saved. That is reasonable. But what is this philosophy that one is destined to go to hell, one is destined to go to heaven? This philosophy is not very nice. Just like we quoted one verse, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda: these are destined to go to hell. But śudhyanti, by the association of pure devotees, they can be purified. Śudhyanti. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā (SB 2.4.18). However sinful maybe, never mind what is the magnitude of the sinful activities, śudhyanti: he can be purified by the pure devotee. So that is real knowledge. And what is this, that one is destined to go to hell, destined to go to heaven?

Śyāmasundara: (to another devotee) Do you have a Bible? Maybe you should bring it here.

Prabhupāda: There are many. Aurobindo’s . . . Aurobindo’s philosophy is also like that: Once you get human form of life, then you don’t degrade. (laughter)

Pradyumna: Hmm. Theosophists also think like that.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, theosophists. They are similar.

Pradyumna: (indistinct) . . . his point was that if someone was in third grade and they don’t pass, then they don’t go down to second grade, but they just stay in third grade, and they may go on to fourth.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Pradyumna: If he is in a grade in school, he is in the first, second and third year of school, but if he does not go on to fourth year, he just stays in third, but he does not go back to second. But I . . . whatever they . . . therefore I always say that if someone in school, he may not go on to fourth, but he may be so bad that he’s thrown out of school altogether, what to speak of going back to second.

Prabhupāda: That is his creation—his concoction, his creation. But Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāpti: transformation of another body. So another body may be in the second class or third class or any class. Dehāntara. Never says human body. Human body is guaranteed only for the yogīs, those who are trying to advance spiritually. Their next body is guaranteed, human being. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41).

But others, dehāntara-prāpti, another transformation of body. And that is confirmed also, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke (BG 8.6):

At the time of death the mental condition will give you another body. There is proof also, just like Mahārāja Bharata. He was advancing in spiritual life—he left his kingdom—but at the time of death he was thinking of a deer, so he became a deer. Such an advanced . . . of course, he did not forget himself. Therefore he was speaking always amongst the saintly persons, their association. He was remembering that "I was King Bharata. Now I have assumed this body." But the nature’s process is that at the time of death, whatever you think, you get a body like that. So how is again guaranteed? It is guaranteed for yogīs. Either jñāna-yogīs, haṭha-yogīs . . . (indistinct) . . . yogīs, Their whole life they devote, maybe impersonal Brahman, so he can be merged into the impersonal feature of the Lord. Paramātmā. The yogīs, all kinds of yogīs, they are guaranteed next life. And all these yogīs, after many, many such births, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), he becomes a devotee.

Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: such saintly person is very rare. Brahmaṇi pasamāsana: taking shelter of the Supreme.

(pause) So, Govinda dāsī, how are you feeling? All right?

Govinda dāsī: Better. Resting nicely. (pause)

Prabhupāda: Their bricks are not so . . . not so, not eleven inches. They are eight inches only.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, eight inches.

Prabhupāda: In India the bricks are eleven inches . . . (indistinct conversation)

Devotee (1): The bricks are brought in by boat. Very expensive to build things here . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Americans who can develop such islands. Otherwise . . .

Govinda dāsī: The other islands are not so developed. They’re very rural, very country. Except for a couple of cities, it’s all countryside and cows.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are gardenias.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Govinda dāsī: These are gardenias.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Govinda dāsī: (indistinct conversation)

Śyāmasundara: You have got ḍābs right there.

Govinda dāsī: They don’t use the coconuts. They pay people to come and . . . (end)