761105 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761105R1-VRNDAVAN - November 05, 1976 - 44.21 Minutes

(Conversation About Gurukula)

Prabhupāda: The modern education means . . . just see what is the disastrous condition. For 531 posts, three lakhs people have applied. How the unemployment . . . this application means they are all educated. Uneducated, they do not apply for any post. That means educated unemployed. This is India's so-called education. (aside) Without light it is . . . you can open the door. (break)

Jagadīśa: . . . I was finding out yesterday's paper . . . (break) First thing, I wanted to go over the daily schedule. According to the schedule, the boys get up between 3:30 and quarter to four.

Prabhupāda: Why so early?

Jagadīśa: Why 3:30 and quarter to four? That's what time we all get up.

Prabhupāda: We are holding maṅgala-ārati at five. So why 3:30?

Jagadīśa: Well, they do japa before maṅgala-ārati.

Prabhupāda: No, no. It will be too early for them. They first of all . . .

Jagadīśa: They're accustomed to getting up at . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: They've been getting up at that time for years.

Prabhupāda: If they are accustomed, that is all right. But otherwise it is not needed, so early. When they go to sleep?

Jagadīśa: At 8:15.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is all right. Then is all right. At least they must have rest six hours, complete.

Jagadīśa: Oh, they get more than that.

Prabhupāda: Then it is . . .

Jagadīśa: Then they get ready, 02:45 bathed, dressed, by about 4:10. So they chant japa from 4:10 until five o'clock under the supervision of their teacher. Then ārati, tulasī worship. And after tulasī worship they again have japa up until guru-pūjā, greeting the Deities.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: From the time tulasī worship is over until the time of greeting the Deities.

Prabhupāda: How long it is?

Jagadīśa: That's an hour and fifteen minutes. Altogether they have japa time amounting to just under two hours.

Prabhupāda: And who . . . they will . . . the small boys, they can devote so much time?

Jagadīśa: Well, these are not small boys. These are . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, teachers.

Jagadīśa: At least ten years, nine, ten years old.

Prabhupāda: Still . . .

Devotee: Nine years old to fourteen years old.

Prabhupāda: They should be engaged in chanting, not sit down and japa. That will not be possible for them.

Jagadīśa: The problem is that some of the boys are fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen but they should chant japa, because they are required to chant sixteen rounds a day. Many of them are initia . . .

Prabhupāda: Sixteen rounds, it requires, utmost two hours, two and a half hours.

Jagadīśa: Well, two hours is on the schedule, two hours and ten minutes.

Prabhupāda: Chela bangiya. (laughter) (greeting someone) How are you? That's nice.

Jagadīśa: So they have two hours and five minutes of japa.

Dhanurdhara: Some boys that are younger, they make a vow to do less, and then they can study.

Jagadīśa: Some of the younger boys chant six or eight rounds instead of sixteen. They chant that much during that time and then they study. Then they attend the temple program, guru-pūjā and Bhāgavatam class. And then after that, they go upstairs, wash their clothes and clean the āśrama. That takes them about an hour, to wash their clothes and sweep and cleanse the floor, cleanse the shower room, wash their clothes . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, when they chant the mantras?

Jagadīśa: Brahma-saṁhitā?

Prabhupāda: Or any . . .

Jagadīśa: Any mantra. At . . . right now they're chanting from nine until 9:30 in the morning with Yaśodānandana Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Not in the . . . early in the morning?

Yaśodānandana: In the early morning I take some of the boys in the Deity room between 5:30 and six, the boys and the Deities.

Prabhupāda: Deity means temple.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Deity? Means temple. What do you mean, "The Deity room"?

Yaśodānandana: Within the Deity room, when they are bathing the Deities, we are offering the prayers to the Deities, the Brahma-saṁhitā and Īśopaniṣad.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why? Deity room? Within the Deity room there is no need of chanting. Who told you this? There is no need. Eh? Within the Deity room? You told?

Pradyumna: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Pradyumna: Sometimes you . . . unless you said, for installation or at other times when the Deity is being bathed, to chant Brahma-saṁhitā prayers.

Prabhupāda: No. Within the Deity room there is no business. No business.

Jagadīśa: When we hear the chanting, that's where it's coming from in the morning, in the early morning.

Prabhupāda: Oh. They can chant outside, yes. The Deity bathing or whatever, dressing, may go on. You can chant not within the Deity room. That you can do outside. Then when their reading, writing begins?

Jagadīśa: That begins at 10:15, after prasādam. They take prasādam at 9:30, and then at 10:15 their English class begins.

Prabhupāda: Just after taking prasādam?

Jagadīśa: Yes. Fifteen minutes after.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What begins?

Jagadīśa: English class. That goes for one and a half hours. Then there's math class which goes for forty-five minutes.

Prabhupāda: Not continually. They should be given a recess, ten minutes. Then again come to the class. And a class should not be more than forty-five minutes. One class should not be continued more than forty-five minutes, then ten minutes recess, then begin another class.

Jagadīśa: For the English program it is required, in order for them to have enough time to read and write, then they would require an hour and a half, so they would have two classes.

Prabhupāda: In the meantime, one and half?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You give ten minutes recess.

Jagadīśa: And during the recess what should they do?

Prabhupāda: Nothing. They'll be free. Nothing to do. Recess means nothing to do. That is brain, I mean to say, rest. All continually you cannot do that. That is not good. Utmost, forty minutes or forty-five minutes. Then give them ten minutes' freedom. Then begin another. Not more than forty to forty-five minutes at a time, reading, writing.

Jagadīśa: After class, then, by 12:30 they bathe again, second time.

Prabhupāda: They take prasādam first and then bathe?

Jagadīśa: They bathe . . . they take prasādam at 9:00 in the morning, 9:30. Then they have class. Then after class is finished, then they bathe.

Prabhupāda: After class they bathe?

Jagadīśa: Around 12:30.

Prabhupāda: Not needed. After prasādam they should not take bathing at least for four hours.

Jagadīśa: Four hours.

Pradyumna: They have a schedule where they have dāl, rice and sabjī and cāpāṭi at 9:30 in the morning. Is that what they have in the afternoon?

Prabhupāda: Eh? So when they first take bathing?

Jagadīśa: Uh, when they rise, at around four o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's fine. Then they take the prasādam at what time?

Jagadīśa: 9:30.

Prabhupāda: 9:30. So . . .

Jagadīśa: We can take prasādam earlier.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why earlier? Earlier, any breakfast?

Jagadīśa: No.

Prabhupāda: Why not? They are children. They must have some breakfast.

Jagadīśa: They have three meals. One at . . . this is the way the temple program is scheduled. The temple eats at 9:30 in the morning, so the boys also get prasādam at that time because everyone eats the same . . .

Prabhupāda: But early in the morning they should have some . . . at least munch sweetmeat, something like that.

Bhagatjī: Like chewra.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagatjī: Like chewra and curds, they can take, for example. After taking bath at one o'clock they should take little prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Early in the morning, just after maṅgala-ārati, they can take something. They must take something. They are taking bathing at what time?

Jagadīśa: In the morning?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: Ten to four.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: Four o'clock.

Prabhupāda: Four o'clock. So after maṅgala-ārati, the maṅgala-ārati prasādam should be given them, a little sweet.

Yaśodānandana: (to other devotees) We hadn't agreed on that . . . (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: Yes, the maṅgala-ārati sweets.

Prabhupāda: Maṅgala-ārati sweets, they should be distributed amongst the children, little sweets. Then they can take 9:30 prasādam.

Jagadīśa: Full prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then? Again they are taking bathing at what time?

Jagadīśa: The scheduled next bathing is 12:30.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the . . . 12:30, then?

Jagadīśa: After bathing they take a little prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. Then it is all right.

Jagadīśa: Then at 1:30 they take some rest.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice. How long?

Jagadīśa: One hour.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Jagadīśa: Then they have Sanskrit class from 2:30 until four.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. 2:30, four, that's all right.

Jagadīśa: One and a half hours. So there should be a recess in between.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: That's one and a half hours, so there should be recess in between.

Prabhupāda: Ten minutes at least.

Jagadīśa: Then at four o'clock the chanting party leaves for the Yamunā procession.

Prabhupāda: In process . . . that's nice.

Jagadīśa: And they return by six for darśana in the temple room.

Prabhupāda: No, let them return by 5:30.

Jagadīśa: 5:30.

Devotee (2): Can we have the class while we're there? So that we . . . 'cause it takes us . . . (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: Well, we can adjust this but . . . because darśana begins at 5:30, they should be there by . . .

Prabhupāda: No, darśana begins at five . . .

Jagadīśa: 5:30.

Prabhupāda: 5:30. Why?

Devotee (2): It was at six o'clock in the evening. Originally it was at six o'clock.

Prabhupāda: No, no. The darśana opens at five.

Jagadīśa: No, when you come into the temple room, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Your darśana.

Prabhupāda: No, no, my darśana is different. Public darśana. When the Deity room is opened?

Bhagatjī: At five o'clock in the evening.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Why do you say six?

Jagadīśa: Uh, I meant that when the darśana period for yourself was at six.

Prabhupāda: No, it should be 5:30.

Jagadīśa: 5:30.

Prabhupāda: General darśana is open at five. That's nice.

Jagadīśa: So then the boys would return at 5:30 . . .

Prabhupāda: I think it may be little earlier, no, half an hour.

Bhagatjī: Half an hour it would be, because the ārati is beginning at 6:30 . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagatjī: . . . so the afternoon darśana would be at 4:30.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhagatjī: That we had managed last year.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: So the boys would come for the chanting and recitation of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: What time?

Jagadīśa: 5:30 to 6:30.

Prabhupāda: No, 5:30 we begin class. In that class they can chant.

Jagadīśa: Kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Jagadīśa: And then, at 6:30, there will be ārati and they'll stay for ārati. Then, after ārati, they take a little prasādam and then take rest.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. That's all right.

Jagadīśa: And as far as everyone's duties are concerned, Rūpa-vilāsa is the English teacher. He teaches English and math, and, of course, Pradyumna teaches the Sanskrit program. And Dhanurdhara Prabhu has been . . . he works in the āśrama, overseeing the boys . . .

Prabhupāda: Taking care.

Jagadīśa: Yes. And Yaśodānandana Mahārāja will . . .

Prabhupāda: Recitation.

Jagadīśa: Recitation.

Yaśodānandana: And I also help with getting the boys through japa and kīrtana and getting them more enthusiastic.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Jagadīśa: It's nice to have a sannyāsī involved.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Jagadīśa: He can be a good example.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Jagadīśa: And Bhagatjī, grandfather. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: For feeding. Feeding. Give them sumptuous food so that they may become healthy, nice food. (laughter) Yes. That is also wanted. Children, they must eat sufficiently. Not overeat. Even overeat, that is not wrong for children. And that will be exercise, by going to Yamunā and coming. That will be bodily exercise. This is nice. Do that. Strictly follow. There is no scarcity of space there. Yes. Vṛndāvana is holy place. And there is no government interference, so increase it. Bring more student from all over the world. Then it will be unique. And you also make scheme to get Indian children from aristocratic family. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). Those who are born in high-class, rich family or Brahmin family, they are not ordinary. But there is no Brahmin family now but the richer section, they can be induced to send their boys to learn Sanskrit and English and Bhagavad-bhakti. They can do business, and whatever they like, they can do later on. But these things, they should be . . . father, mother should be careful. Iska koi program banao, acha ghar ka ladka sab aye. Unko to khane pine ka koi abhav nahi hai. Wo thoda Bhagavad-bhakti sikh le, thoda Sanskrit sikh le, thoda English sikh le, usko kya . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (Make such a program that boys from aristocratic backgrounds come to the gurukula. They have no problem with food, shelter and clothing. Let them learn the science of devotional service to the Lord, a little Sanskrit, a little English . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Bhagatjī: Bacche kya bahar se ayenge? (Can kids from outside join the gurukula?)

Prabhupāda: Kahi se bhi aye, idhar to rahega aur idhar khayega. Kahi se bhi aye. Bahar se ayenge . . . (Let them come from anywhere. They will stay here so it doesn't matter where they come from . . .) just attract all good family, children. Jo ki parishram karke, (Those who earn by toiling very hard,) labour . . . working, they will have to live, they cannot. They cannot become a paṇḍita or spiritually advanced men. They have to work. But if the richer section, they get their sons good character, good devotee . . . Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, ko 'tha putreṇa jātena yo na vidyā na bhaktimān: "What is the use of such son who is neither devotee nor learned?" Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁ cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam: "What is the use of blind eyes? It is simply troublesome." So if the aristocratic family, they do not give education in spiritual line, they'll become all hippies, loafer, and drinking and wasting father's money. They should be informed. Usko to phokat me paisa milta hai, usko udayega, baith-baithke sharab piyega aur usko to chahiye . . . (He gets money without any hard work so he will waste it, engage in drinking and require . . .) (break) I think there must be three, four classes.

Bhagatjī: Three, four classes afterwards, but at present?

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Bhagatjī: If students are in great number, then we shall introduce—otherwise . . .

Prabhupāda: Classes to be arranged according to the number of student increases. That's all. That shall be . . .

Jagadīśa: Now there are two classes.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: There are two classes according to age.

Prabhupāda: Kata, according to time and circumstance.

Bhagatjī: In my opinion, Prabhupāda, there should be one period for Hindi classes.

Prabhupāda: That's very nice.

Bhagatjī: Forty minutes, forty-five minutes that will be very good for the children.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good. That is essential. If the Indian students come, they will require some vernacular like that.

Bhagatjī: Hindi class there should be. In Vṛndāvana they will . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Do that, Hindi.

Bhagatjī: In Māyāpur there should be Bengali class. And Hindi and Bengali, two language are very close.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not any other language. Hindi is essential—must be compulsory, Hindi. That is State language.

Jagadīśa: For the Western children also?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Everyone.

Bhagatjī: You should find some time, adjust some time for Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Hindi, Sanskrit, English compulsory.

Bhagatjī: That's all. Then, afterwards we can make other, just elemental mathematics, arithmetic or just that, afterwards, when the regular studies go in the group. Now . . . (indistinct) . . . these three things. By learning Hindi they will . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And the government also will like that, that foreign students . . .

Bhagatjī: If they can understand the language and they . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, Hindi is essential. It is not difficult, the same principle as Sanskrit. Reading and writing, that's all.

Jagadīśa: So far as the financial situation, I've discussed with Bhagatjī, and it seems that the best idea is to open a separate gurukula maintenance account with co-signers Bhagatjī and Rūpa-vilāsa, so that . . . because there's so much . . .

Prabhupāda: So then some of them, they are getting money.

Jagadīśa: Yes, the parents are sending money.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Jagadīśa: Because with the temple there has been confusion.

Prabhupāda: Now the temple, you can make separate account.

Jagadīśa: We have one question about . . . there's one of the boys. His name is Jagaman, and he's a . . . he's a more or less a bad boy. He's had a bad background. His mother's a devotee, and she's a nice devotee, but he's very . . . he terrorizes the other boys.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Jagadīśa: He misleads them. He lies.

Prabhupāda: How old he is?

Jagadīśa: He's thirteen.

Prabhupāda: So he cannot be . . . he must go back. We cannot spoil other children.

Rūpa-vilāsa: They are being spoiled by him.

Jagadīśa: I was thinking, to make an example of him, either we should beat him or send him back.

Prabhupāda: Best thing will be send him back. He's incorrigible.

Yaśodānandana: Personally I had that boy with me for two months when I went to South India preaching, and I thought it would be an asset to have a young boy, but he was so misbehaved that it was too much problem. And the same things that he was doing in the beginning with me, telling lies and misbehaving, he is still doing now, and he does not correct himself, never. He has no effort to better his behavior or his conduct. He does not chant his rounds. He rarely comes to the kīrtana, or else when he comes to the kīrtana, he does not chant. He simply plays and makes fun. And it's very . . . he has a very bad influence on the other boys.

Prabhupāda: No, then he should be sent back. Or he can be sent to Bombay to work ordinarily. Or Hyderabad farm, like that. Let him work on the ground.

Yaśodānandana: He speaks Bengali. That boy was in Bengal before, and he picked up Bengali a little bit.

Prabhupāda: So he can go.

Pradyumna: He's very intelligent, but he's just had a bad . . .

Prabhupāda: So he was in Māyāpur?

Yaśodānandana: Yes, he was in Māyāpur before. He knows Bengali. He can speak Bengali with us.

Prabhupāda: So he can go with the Māyāpur preaching party as well.

Yaśodānandana: We could send him with Bhavānanda Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will be nice. He knows Bengali. Let him go to Bengal and keep him under Bhavānanda.

Jagadīśa: I think that he'll be a problem wherever he goes.

Prabhupāda: No, Bhavānanda will correct his problem.

Jagadīśa: I think Bhavānanda wouldn't want to take him, because he knows he's a problem.

Rūpa-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rūpa-vilāsa: Bhavānanda told me he did not want to see that boy again.

Pradyumna: In Māyāpur he had some girl . . .

Jagadīśa: In my opinion, the best thing is to make an example and beat him.

Prabhupāda: Yes, send him to farm, work in the field. If he does not work, beat him. Mūrkhasya laktausadhiḥ.

Bhagatjī: Ek baat yaad a gayi. Pehle jo kuch crime karte the, to phasi ya kalapani. To kalapani me Singapore ki taraf ya Malaya phek dete the. Aap unko Hyderabad me bhej dete hai. (laughter) (I remember how criminals used to be sent for lifetime imprisonment or hung until death. For lifetime imprisonment, they were dispatched to Singapore or Malaysia. Similarly, you send them to Hyderabad.) (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Ha. Hyderabad bhejo, usko kaam karao, usko matti khodne ka kaam do. Nahi kare to usko pito. Aise kya hai. (Yes. Send him to Hyderabad—make him work hard and till the ground and if he doesn't listen, then beat him.)

Yaśodānandana: He was just in Hyderabad for that ceremony there, and he caused such disruption in the whole temple that I don't think they'd want him there.

Jagadīśa: The thing is, if we beat him here and keep him here, then all the boys will straighten up because they will see that if they go bad, then this will be their punishment.

Prabhupāda: As you think, you can do. But I wanted to engage in farm work, digging.

Yaśodānandana: Yes, that is his propensity. Actually it's a fact when he was with me I would try to teach him Īśopaniṣad and your purports, which are so clear and simple, but after three or four times explaining the same thing, he would become angry to receive the instruction.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He is meant for śūdra's work. (laughter)

Yaśodānandana: And when that boy would be told to watch himself . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot expect that everyone is Brahmin. No. He has got śūdra mentality, so let him till the ground for Kṛṣṇa. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). He is fit for tilling so let him till and produce grain for Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Hyderabad?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hard work. He should be given hard work. This gurukula is for high, high-class Brahmin, kṣatriyas, not for the vaiśyas and śūdras. (Bhagatjī laughs) No, everyone is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, but there . . . that I was describing today. There must be division. Don't put horse before a cart.

Pradyumna: Race horse before the cart.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Pradyumna: Race horse before the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that will not be nice.

Bhagatjī: Vaiśya . . . log (. . . people) will have some betterment . . .

Prabhupāda: Vaiśya is meant for kṛṣi.

Indian man: If you don't teach vaiśyas for this gurukula then how do they do the accounts?

Prabhupāda: No no, we are not taking vaiśyas by birth.

Jagadīśa: Accounts is just a skill. Anyone can learn to do account.

Indian man: No, vaiśya is special work.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, accounts are meant for kāyasthas, śūdras. (Indian man laughs) Vaiśyas are meant for producing grain and protecting cows. Yes. According . . . one Englishman used to say: "This clerical job means educated laborer, educated śūdra." (laughs) Śūdra . . . actually the kāyasthas are counted amongst the śūdras. You know that?

Bhagatjī: In Bengal kāyasthas is the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, Bengal. Mean in U.P.

Bhagatjī: In U.P. kāyasthas are śūdras.

Prabhupāda: And original they are śūdras. The history of Bengali kāyasthas . . . they went with the Brahmins as servant. That is the history. And in Bengal the system is . . . jaat harale kayat. Jiska koi jaat ka thikana nahi chalta, wo kaastha ho gaya. Ye Bengal me aisa bola jata hai, jaat harale kayat . . . (if you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha. One who cannot follow the principles of his respective varṇa or class, becomes a kāyastha. This is the system in Bengal.) Actually it is . . . if some low-class man, he becomes rich, then he's taken into the kāyastha community. Anyone who cannot stick to the principle of caste system, he becomes a kāyastha.

Bhagatjī: Varṇa-saṅkara.

Prabhupāda: Ah yes. Jaat harale kayat. Ye Bengal me hai. (If you lose your caste, then you are a kāyastha. This is the system in Bengal.) Some of them are kṣatriyas and some of them . . . like that. But that is not essential. That is all gone. Now, if one cannot take education, he can be used in farm work, little hard work.

Jagadīśa: Bhakti-kīrtana is another problem.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Jagadīśa: Bhakti-kīrtana, Saurabha's boy. He is only eight, but he is becoming like a street boy.

Prabhupāda: So let him go to farm working. Farm working is for suitable . . .

Bhagatjī: He likes that. He'll play with cows. He likes dung. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jagadīśa: He likes dung.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Let him take care. He should take care. Therefore we must have all these engagement. He'll be encouraged to take care of the cows.

Bhagatjī: But he's not in gurukula. How can you send him? He is with Saurabha. Saurabha left him for five days. Saurabha is keeping him.

Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas, for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required.

Bhagatjī: He is not interested in education. Not at all.

Prabhupāda: No, no education . . . that is waste of . . . for such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes.

Bhagatjī: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary."

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do school work nicely?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, japa . . . whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful, what to speak of children. Japa, children cannot . . . that should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should . . . but not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No.

Jagadīśa: You've often said the first-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas, second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas . . .

Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things.

Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa-karma.

Prabhupāda: Shobai korbe jomidari, ke korbe mubedari. Sab zamindar ho gaya to phir mubedari kaun karega. (If everyone becomes a landlord then who will become the servant.) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable, you should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Jagadīśa: Head, arms, belly and legs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Whichever suitable, that . . . one must be suitable for any of these. It is the guide's intelligence: for which purpose he is suitable, engage him, like that. That is required. Not that everyone has to become a big scholar in Sanskrit. That is not required. Let him come to gurukula, but if he is not suitable . . . gurukula, this . . . so far character is con . . . that is for everyone. Just like early rise in the morning, chanting, and going to the . . . what is the objection? Anyone can do it. That is practice. And for working, if he is not suitable for higher education, let him go to the farm, take care of the cows grow food, flowers, fruits, eat, and dance and chant. Chanting, dancing, everyone will take part. There is no doubt.

Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies? He speaks lies.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bhagatjī: How to mend him from lies?

Prabhupāda: That is by your good association. What lies he tells, don't believe him at all. That's all. Take him that he speaks only lies. Then don't believe. Whatever he says, you force him to do. Take him that he speaks only lies. Why should you consult him? He's a liar. But see that he's working, that's all. Now we are getting so much land, we can develop. We can utilize everyone's service. That requires brain. Not that "He cannot do this, therefore reject him"—no, engage him in some other . . .

Jagadīśa: One other point I want to make, and that is that until the construction is completed, I think we should wait . . .

Prabhupāda: There is ample place now where can live.

Jagadīśa: But I mean to bring more boys we should wait until the construction . . .

Prabhupāda: Why? Let them come. It is already there. It is not that the guesthouse is all filled up. Let them come.

Jagadīśa: As many as possible?

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Jagadīśa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Let them come. And arrangement should be made when it is . . . if Vṛndāvana is too hot, at that time we can send them to Mahabaleshvara, or if we get that Madras place, that is very cooling, Nilgiri Hills. That will be good recreation for them. They should be kept quite comfortably and built up, their character, education. That is wanted. There is need of some good first-class men, ideal men. The world is full of rogues and thieves and bad character. Ye jo Sarasvati vidyalaya, ye log kya kar rahe hai? (What are they doing, these Sarasvatī-vidyālaya people?)

Bhagatjī: Shiksharthi nahi, vidyalaya khali padha hua hai Prabhupāda. (There are no teachers, the school is empty Prabhupāda.)

Prabhupāda: To kyu hum log thoda le, hum log . . . (So why don't we acquire it, we can . . .)

Bhagatjī: Hume to aj . . . plan kye the . . . (indistinct) . . . panch che mahine ke liye le le. Char-panch mahine ke liye bacche ate hai. (We had planned to acquire it for 5 to 6 months. Kids come here for 4 to 5 months.)

I just told you that building, that Śiśu-vidyālaya, Sarasvatī

Śiśu-vidyālaya, you saw it with Guṇārṇava?

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Bhagatjī: That's it. Prabhupāda asks about that.

Jagadīśa: Oh. But they said no.

Bhagatjī: Who said?

Jagadīśa: Guṇārṇava went to see them, Mr . . . what's his name.

Prabhupāda: You cannot send Guṇārṇava. He is not fit for this purpose. You should go yourself.

Jagadīśa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Kya wo padha hai, kya unka buddhi nahi. Hum log ko dede hum abhi Sarasvati vidyalaya bana de, ladki log ke liye. Sab lifeless hai. Kuch karega nahi aur kuch dusro ko karne ka sahaya nahi karega. Ab ye Dhanuka ka ye jo hai, kya kuch kaam nahi hota, padha hai. (What are they doing, don't they have any intelligence? Let them give it to us and make it into a real Sarasvatī-vidyālaya, for the girls. They are all lifeless. They will neither do anything themselves nor help others to do something. This Dhanuka āśrama, what are they doing?)

Bhagatjī: Sanskrit school hai, bacche padhte hai waha pe. Kal panchvi . . . (indistinct) . . . hui . . . (indistinct) . . . Dharma sangha, unka naam rakha hai Dharma sangha. (There is a Sanskrit school. Yesterday fifth grade . . . (indistinct) . . . they named it Dharma sangha.)

Prabhupāda: Wo kya karte hai, baccho ke? (What do they do, those kids?)

Bhagatjī: Bacche padhte hai sanskrit, bis marks ka exam dete hai . . . (Children study Sanskrit, write an exam of twenty marks . . .)

Prabhupāda: Kitne bacche hai? (How many students are there?)

Bhagatjī: Kafi hai. Pacchis tees ladke hai. (Quite a few. 25 to 30 boys are there.)

Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.)

Bhagatjī: Ha. Sanskrit padhate hai baccho ko. Unke kuch bacche Vaishnav bhi ho gaye hai, sadhu bhi ho gaye hai Vaishnav. (Yes. They teach Sanskrit to the kids. Some of them have become Vaiṣṇava saints.)

Prabhupāda: Tab to thik hai. (Then it's okay.)

(break)

Jagadīśa: That's our report, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's our report.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Do that.

Yaśodānandana: Jaya Prabhupāda. (end)