750607 - Conversation - Honolulu

Conversations by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

750607R1-HONOLULU - June 07, 1975 - 71:37 Minutes

(with Yogi Bhajan)

Yogi Bhajan: How are you?

Prabhupāda: Not very well.

Yogi Bhajan: You have carried a big load. What is . . . will you be in a position to come to the conference?

Prabhupāda: I don't think so. Which conference?

Yogi Bhajan: This Unity of Man conference.

Prabhupāda: Where it is?

Yogi Bhajan: New Mexico. There are about . . . we have confirmed sixteen teachers coming from . . . various people from India. We have confirmation of people coming all around the world.

Prabhupāda: So they have not invited me, I don't think.

Yogi Bhajan: The invitation must have gone.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogi Bhajan: We invited everybody.

Prabhupāda: Ah, but I have not received an invitation.

Yogi Bhajan: Oh, it may be on the way.

Prabhupāda: Mexico City?

Yogi Bhajan: New Mexico.

Paramahaṁsa: That's in America. It's one of the states in America, right next to Texas.

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. Santa Fe.

Paramahaṁsa: Santa Fe. Oh.

Yogi Bhajan: We have decided that this is the time for everybody to get together and get their scene together and merge together.

Prabhupāda: They will never. (laughs) You may call all conferences, hundreds and thousands, but they will never, because there is no common platform. Godless.

Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to provide.

Prabhupāda: But you are trying, that's nice, but it will be never successful. You can write it down.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, the question is very simple. Somebody has to break the ice.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yogi Bhajan: Somebody has to break the ice. Somebody, it doesn't matter who. Somebody has to go out and say: "You are welcome. Come in." And it has shown response. Even the prime minister has agreed to it. First she was not agreeing. And she is coming in Mexico.

Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi?

Yogi Bhajan: Um-hmm. She will be there on the 17th and 18th. So we are carrying that spirit.

Prabhupāda: The thing is, everyone is trying to be united. That United Nation is for the last twenty years. They started in 1947, United Nation? Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, '47.

Prabhupāda: And it is seventy . . .

Paramahaṁsa: Almost thirty years.

Prabhupāda: Thirty years. What they have done? All the best men of the whole world, they are there, but no united, simply disunited. Common platform, they are not agreeable. They do not accept God.

Yogi Bhajan: Um-hmm.

Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty—no central point. You have got your own philosophy, I have got my own philosophy; he has got his own philosophy. Now, how we will agree?

Yogi Bhajan: No, I may not agree with your philosophy, and you may not agree with my philosophy, but one thing we both have agreed that you are you, and I am I, and both can have respect and love for each other. And there has to be a place where everybody should be given that opportunity.

Prabhupāda: That is going on. When I meet you I say: "Yes, sir." You say, "Yes, sir." That is all right. That is social etiquette. But real unity is on the platform of spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍita, he is sama-darśina. So paṇḍitāḥ means:

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śva-pāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18)

"A very learned brāhmaṇa and a dog and an elephant, a cow, a caṇḍāla—all of them, to a paṇḍita, really learned person, sama-darśinaḥ." You see? So now how a learned scholar brāhmaṇa and a dog can be seen on equal level? But it can be seen. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. It is on the spiritual platform, that every one of us is spirit soul. We are, by different karma, we are covered with different material dress. A dog is also a soul, and a learned Brāhmiṇ is also a soul. But he is covered with different body, and he is covered with different body. So one who does not see the body, he can see on the same level. But one who sees the body, he cannot see. This is the basic principle of equality. I am seeing you are Sikh, you are seeing I am Hindu, he is seeing he is Christian, he is Muhammadan, and so on, so on. And nobody is seeing that nobody is Brāhmiṇ. Nobody is seeing nobody is Hindu, nobody is Christian—he is pure soul. So that vision, unless one attains, how there can be equality? There is no possibility.

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's agreed. But . . .

Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā . . . samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible.

Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception . . . just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you", if I say: "I don't like you" . . . naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality. That requires education. So. . .

Yogi Bhajan: All right, come and educate.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) But that education is there, the beginning, in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Yogi Bhajan: No, you are shy.

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā and the education is there, that, immediately Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, there is the soul. This is the beginning of education. But there are many learned scholars, they do not believe in the soul. That is the difficulty. They do not believe. A big, big professor—I have been in Moscow—Professor Kotovsky, he said, "No, there is no soul. After this finishing of the body, everything is finished."

Yogi Bhajan: But they don't have experience.

Prabhupāda: Therefore . . . so if you assemble some not-experienced men, then how there will be unity?

Yogi Bhajan: No, granted. What we are trying to do is we are giving out a call to all learned, the unlearned . . . but basic fact is: there is a desire somewhere in the ether that everybody wants to feel each other. And they have not done anything good by negating each other or talking negatively. They have not gained anything. They have realized it now. Otherwise . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, what will be the basic principle of unity? That is the point.

Yogi Bhajan: The point of basic unity is respect for each other.

Prabhupāda: But that is going on. Suppose you have come here. I welcome you. If I go to your place, you welcome me. That respect is going on.

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's right. That is between two individuals.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, whenever we come in a big assembly, we respect each one, gentlemen. There is no harm.

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, but people do not understand why we are like this, why they wear like this. They don't get a chance to explain. At Interreligious Council, I am a member. They never knew. They think we are the most weird people from the Mars, perhaps. They don't understand a bit. And now our legal services are helping them, and all sorts of things have happened, and they are trying to understand. And when the last president left the office, he said, in his words of departure, he said: "I am only limited by the Christ. I never understood anything else. But I do feel from that limit that God is unlimited and it is in everybody." Asking a fanatic Christian to make that statement to the general assembly, it took us about two years.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. You find so many fanatics. How you will unite them?

Yogi Bhajan: Gradually, one by one, one by one, they will understand. Love is the winning point. That's why they don't understand. When they find love from you, they will find love from me, they will love from people, they will love from everybody else. You know, you can take a mango stick and beat somebody, but you can take mango off it and eat. Effort has to be made somehow. And now . . .

Prabhupāda: Effort is being made, but the platform, the world where you are staying, that effort is very difficult to fulfill.

Yogi Bhajan: That is agreed. That's typical. Difficulty is agreed. I go to India, I find the difficulty. I am here, I find the difficulty. But there are genuine people in the spiritual work . . .

Prabhupāda: But one thing is, just like you said some Christian priests?

Yogi Bhajan: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That "I realize that one, God is one." So if God is one and every one of us after God, then why there is disagreement?

Yogi Bhajan: Well, those . . . everybody has limited egos, so we understand that.

Prabhupāda: No, we should . . . the conference should be made that if there is God and God is one, then who is that God? What is His characteristic? That should be discussed.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, that's what I say. But what we are trying to do is spend all, what we have righteously earned, provide a platform, and invite somebody. My personal feeling is even if somebody comes and tell us there that we are the worst being on the world, but by coming and opening himself up, herself, he at least acknowledges that there is a mutual existence. At this time I have walked away to every corner, here and there, everywhere. Some people are not aware totally. I was asked one day a question, "Why these Hare Kṛṣṇa people dance in the streets?"

Prabhupāda: Ecstasy.

Yogi Bhajan: I said: "Why not?" I asked the question. I said: "Why not? What is wrong with them? What do you feel?" "But that's not in America. You know, we don't go and dance everywhere." I said: "You go in ballroom dances and you dance all the time. You drink and you dance, and you do what you want to do. And they just, in their own life, feel that they enjoy dancing right for God and the world. You dance for your own social contact. They dance for their own divine contact. What is wrong with them? Their leader, their prophet, their spiritual guide danced to God, and they dance to God. Why you think . . . why you go to the church?" "We go to pray." I said: "That's their prayer. Why don't you understand the prayer aspect of it? Why you want to understand how they dress, how they like, how they dislike each other?" And the second question somebody asked me, "But do you think somebody has the right to convert our children?" I said: "But do you think somebody has not the right . . ."

Prabhupāda: I never asked them to be converted.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, I understand that. My situation is sometimes people ask you a question about me. They think I am another Indian, they can ask question of me.

Prabhupāda: . . . Dr. Judah has written. (aside) Where is that book? That Dr. Judah's book?

Ambarīṣa: We took it to court, and I think Manasvī has it.

Prabhupāda: One professor, Doctor, what is his name?

Paramahaṁsa: Stillson.

Prabhupāda: Stillson Judah, he has . . . many others also written books about us, but his book is very scholarly. He has written the same thing, that . . . what is that dedication?

Śrutakīrti: "To the devotees who have found fulfillment in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and to their parents who have raised them."

Ambarīṣa: "So they will understand."

Prabhupāda: Ah, "the parents who will understand them." My students, mostly they are young, mostly within thirty, some of them little above thirty. So some of their parents, they come and congratulate me, "Swāmījī, it is our great fortune that you have come to our country." That I receive many. But there are other many parents, they are not happy.

Yogi Bhajan: We are starting a parent organization for our kids. We invite the mothers, parents, ask them to stay, and send them back. Idea is basic, and the fundamental idea is: what you are doing is God's will; these people who are following you is God's will; and those who will receive it as God's will . . . but it is not that everybody sees that God will.

Prabhupāda: No. God's will is open. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. God says that, "You always think of Me. You just become My devotee, worship Me and offer your respect to Me." This is God's will. "And if you do this, then you are coming back to Me." It is clearly said. God's will is declared. There is no secret. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad . . . (aside) Find out this ninth verse, er, Ninth Chapter. Yes.

Bali-mardana: Shall I read it?

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Bali-mardana: Sanskrit?

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

mām evaiśyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaṁ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

(BG 9.34)

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

Prabhupāda: That's all. This is God's will. It is not secret. It is open. But the thing is that everyone has got his different God.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, the question is very fundamental. Everybody has his own God, so let everybody bring one's own God in understanding. It's not . . . God is . . .

Prabhupāda: God . . . you have got own God. God says: "Always think of Me."

Yogi Bhajan: Um-hmm. That's true.

Prabhupāda: So that's all right. The followers may think of Him. Man-manā. "You become My devotee. Become My devotee and worship Me and offer respect to Me," that's all. So we are teaching our student, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, always think of Him. Just offer your respect and worship Him. In this way become His devotee." We do not. . . spiritually, thing is . . . (indistinct) . . . yhat's all. And they are doing that, and they are getting the result. We do not say that "Sit down, press your nose, and meditate and this, that, or . . ." no. Simple thing. There is God; we have got our temple . . . (aside) Don't make now this sort of thing . . . simple thing. We have got our temple. We say that, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Here is God. And think of Him." As soon as you chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa . . ." Everyone has got the beads. That means you are thinking of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. And then we are offering respect, go to the temple and offer our obeisance. Very simple thing. So we accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if you don't accept, then you must have your own God. Do that. But the followers of Vedic principle, they will accept Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). I think somebody was telling me that Guru Nanak also accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme father. Is it a fact? I do not know.

Yogi Bhajan: No, we have in Siri Guru Grantha lot of things about Lord Rāma, about Lord Kṛṣṇa, about . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, what is Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is accepted? Is He accepted as the Supreme Lord?

Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa is accepted as incarnation of God.

Prabhupāda: Well, incarnation of God and God, there is no difference.

Yogi Bhajan: That's it. Also, there is a fundamental message in that, that as God created everyone, God created all of us, and in Sikh dharma God, whatever we want to call it, ultimate reality, beyond sunya-samādha, the truth, and Lord Kṛṣṇa in His incarnation taught, Lord Rāma taught. And what our problem at this time at the humanity is: the humanity is divided in many forms. And it is the inner hatred which people want to expel out.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that every, at least, religious sect. I don't say others, nonreligious or agnostic. There are Christian, Muhammadan, Hindu, Sikhs, or any religious system, they have accepted that there is God, Supreme Truth.

Yogi Bhajan: No, there is one fundamental thing which this movement may not know. In Dasam Grantha, Guru Gobind Singh wrote down Kṛṣṇa avatāra.

Prabhupāda: Avatāra . . .

Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa avatāra is in his own poetry. It is about Lord Kṛṣṇa. If somebody of these people who know Sanskrit and who know guru-mukhi can translate that part . . .

Prabhupāda: No, translate or not translate, we have already accept Kṛṣṇa, God. So if Guru Nanak has described Him as God, that's all right. Then if Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by Guru Nanak, and Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by us, why not put this God, one God?

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. One God is all right. That everybody will agree. But everybody . . .

Prabhupāda: That one God, Kṛṣṇa, says: "I am the same. I am the one God, that Supreme Lord." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. (aside) Where is . . .? Find out this verse. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kincid asti dhanañjaya.

Devotee: Chapter Seven, text seven. You'd like it read?

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat

kiñcid asti dhanañjaya

mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ

sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva

(BG 7.7)

"O conqueror of wealth, Arjuna, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."

Prabhupāda: And so all the ācāryas of India, including Guru Nanak, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Śaṅkarācārya, Guru Nanak, they have accepted God, Kṛṣṇa. So why not present this God all over the world?

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but question is very simple. Present it among the other Gods. Time has come of a mutual presentation.

Prabhupāda: No, mutual presentation, simply talking will not do. Suppose we are presenting from India. If we accept Kṛṣṇa . . . we have accepted, as you say. As so far other ācāryas, namely Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, the Viṣṇu Svāmī, and then Nimbārka, Lord Caitanya, and Guru Nanak—practically the whole India, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Lord.

Yogi Bhajan: Um, hmm.

Prabhupāda: Now, in India, I think, people ask me the "How many they are Kṛṣṇa conscious?" "Everyone in India." At least in India everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious. So the majority of people . . . and why majority? The whole India. Even there are many Muhammadans who also worship Kṛṣṇa. So if Kṛṣṇa is God, we, in this conference, why not present, "Here is God, whose name is Kṛṣṇa."

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but understand one thing. In layer, that Ka-rish-na, when the kar comes to sunya, at that consciousness if a person does not release to himself, he is not . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that, sunya?

Yogi Bhajan: Sunya.

Prabhupāda: Sunya? Mean zero? God is zero?

Yogi Bhajan: No, it is not zero, it is where the kar, the action, stops.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogi Bhajan: That is the Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is reaction . . .

Yogi Bhajan: But everybody here in this world, four billion people, everybody does not have that experience . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say that every religious sect believes in God.

Yogi Bhajan: Um-hmm.

Prabhupāda: If we present, "Here is God. You are seeking after God. Here is God," now what they will say?

Yogi Bhajan: Well, some will say: "Yes, it is." Some will say, "No."

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. So if he says no, "Why do you say no? Then what is your conception of God?"

Yogi Bhajan: Well, that is what we want to understand basically. That's what we are talking about, one thing. Your realization about God is a very universal realization. Somebody on this human level is very limited. After all, the limited and the unlimited have to be brought together.

Prabhupāda: No. Limited cannot understand God. Limited is limited.

Yogi Bhajan: Um-hmm.

Prabhupāda: Mahātmā means unlimited.

Yogi Bhajan: Um, hmm.

Prabhupāda: Mahā. Mahā means very great. So unless one has very big understanding, he can understand God. God is unlimited. So you have come to that platform to understand. Those who are limited, they cannot understand God. That is not possible. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Siddha. Siddha means one who has become unlimited, Brahman, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, Brahman realization. So Kṛṣṇa says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out of many millions of person," kaścid yatati siddhaye, "somebody is trying to become unlimited." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ: "Those who have become unlimited, out of millions of them, one can understand Me, Kṛṣṇa." So Kṛṣṇa understanding, God understanding . . . when I say "Kṛṣṇa," God. God understanding is for the perfect unlimited, not for common man. Common man should accept the ācāryas. They must follow. Ācāryopāsanam. Just like in India the Sikhs, they follow Guru Nanak. So Guru Nanak says, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa, incarnation of God." So they should accept, that's all. Not that every Sikh is expected to be unlimited as Guru Nanak. That is not expected. But they should follow Guru Nanak. Then they will understand. Guru Nanak says, "Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of God." The all the Sikhs should accept, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is . . ." Then it is all right. It is not expected that every Sikh will understand Kṛṣṇa. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). The mahājana, the ācārya, what path they have shown, that will show. All the ācāryas, they have accepted Kṛṣṇa. And Arjuna, who directly listened Bhagavad-gītā from Kṛṣṇa, he accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). So in this we have to follow. Otherwise it is not possible. What they will understand? They must follow the ācārya. If Guru Nanak says: "I accept Lord Kṛṣṇa as God," . . . God's incarnation and God—there is no difference. Then why the Sikhs should not accept Kṛṣṇa as God?

Yogi Bhajan: That doesn't solve the problem of the world.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we know, "Here is God," then it will solve the problem. But if we do not accept . . . (indistinct) . . . if I . . . I can hear from you, provided I know that you are some big man. Otherwise, how shall I agree to hear from you? The obedience must be there. A student, a small child, hears the teacher because he knows that "My teacher is very great." (break)

Yogi Bhajan: No, we may try to become limited or unlimited. Question is very simple. There are four billion people on this earth, and . . .

Prabhupāda: And therefore they are not expected to understand, four billion. They should follow the leader. It is not expected that . . .

Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to do. We are going to get the leaders together.

Prabhupāda: That leaders . . . the leaders are already there. Now, suppose Guru Nanak says "Kṛṣṇa is God," so will the Sikhs follow Guru Nanak or their own whims?

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, Sikh will follow the instructions . . .

Prabhupāda: Of Guru Nanak.

Yogi Bhajan: . . . Guru Nanak.

Prabhupāda: The Guru Nanak says Kṛṣṇa is God.

Yogi Bhajan: That's very true. Kṛṣṇa is God.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction?

Yogi Bhajan: We are not disobeying any instruction towards God.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's . . . what Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic . . . now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13): the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are: first class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man . . . who is a first-class man? Then . . . (aside) Find out, satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Train first-class men. He must be truthful. He must be self-controlled, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. He must have full knowledge of the whole world, jñānaṁ vijñānam, practical application. So where is the question of that, "I am Sikh," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim . . ."?

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, the question is very simple, what the people will ask you. The caste system, what did to India . . .

Prabhupāda: This is not caste system.

Yogi Bhajan: It turned into.

Prabhupāda: This is classification of the human being. This is not caste system. Just like we are making this American boy a Brāhmiṇ. So this is a Brāhmiṇ caste?

Yogi Bhajan: No, but that is only . . .

Prabhupāda: We have been training them to . . . how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Muhammadan family, this . . . no. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come, he can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam. What is that? So . . .

Devotee: The verse is . . .

Prabhupāda: Satya śama damaḥ titikṣa. You don't find?

Devotee: I thought it was the verse about the qualities of a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, what is that?

Devotee: "Peacefulness, self . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the Sanskrit verse?

Devotee: The one I have is text forty-two of Chapter Eighteen, but I don't think that's the one you're quoting from.

Prabhupāda: What is the verse? You cannot read?

Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah, śamo damaḥ, that's it. Read.

Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca, jñānam vijñānam āstikyaṁ . . . (BG 18.42).

Prabhupāda: Brahma-karma svabhāva . . . this is first-class man. Śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the sense or controlling the mind. And damaḥ, controlling the sense. Now, if either you may be Hindu, Muslim, Christian . . . now, if I say: "Please come here. Learn this thing, how to control the mind, how to control the senses," so who will object to it? So if anyone is trained up, it doesn't matter from which sect, which family he is coming, if he has learned how to control the mind, how control the senses, then he becomes first-class man. So we have got everything already spoken by God. If we accept it, then there is unity. But we don't accept; we manufacture something. That is the difficulty.

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but let us agree to confer . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Your . . .

Yogi Bhajan: Where is the difficulty? There will be difficulty.

Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is that we don't agree. If I say: "Come here. Be educated," and if you don't agree, "No, no. I don't want," then how you can be educated? One must agree what God says. They will say: "I believe," "We believe." What is the "I believe," "We believe"? If you want to become first-class man, then this is the formula, control your mind, control your senses, be fully in knowledge. Practically apply knowledge in life. So this is first class. Then the second-class men, you see, what is that? Kṣatriya.

Devotee:

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.43)

"Heroism . . ."

Prabhupāda: Next class. First class, either you say first class or brāhmaṇa. The second class . . .

Yogi Bhajan: Kṣatri.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya, the administrator. They have got śauryam. Then what is the word, śauryam?

Devotee: Heroism.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: Śauryam . . .

Prabhupāda: Heroism. That is . . . just like Mahārāja Parīkṣit. He was going on his tour, and he saw one black man was trying to kill a cow. Immediately he took his sword, "Who are you? You are trying to kill cow in my kingdom?" This is called heroism. Now, where is that hero? And they are becoming president. How he will command? He is not hero. Everyone has right to live. Why they are killing animals? This is heroism. As soon as he saw that a rascal is going to kill a cow, "Why you are doing this?" Immediately he took his sword. Heroism. Then?

Devotee: "Power, determination . . ."

Prabhupāda: Power. He must have power, influence. Why he should beg vote, "Give me vote, give me vote, give me vote," begging? Where is power? If he is begging vote, where is power? Formerly the kings . . . just like they used to take sword: "If you don't accept me, then I shall kill you." This is power. Śauryaṁ tejam . . .

Devotee: Dhṛtir, determination.

Prabhupāda: Determination, and yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Now when there is war, these politician will remain in their room safely. They will not go to the war. And why these people are voted for political post? Formerly the king would first of all stand. To the other side also, the king is there, and this side also. The fight is going on. If the king is killed, then the victory is there. Yuddhe ca apalāyanam. The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader . . . how you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head; I push my hand. So when there is attack, the brāhmaṇas are not expected to go forward; the kṣatriyas. So this is training. Everything is perfectly there. People are not accepting. You don't require conference. You simply accept the standard knowledge. Then everything is there. I am speaking to you because you are leader of the society. So if we take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and train people from all over the world—not that Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindu or for the Indians—for everyone. Then there will be all right. Otherwise difficult . . .

Yogi Bhajan: No, I definitely agree that you must be successful in that mission of. And you have practically and honestly taught what you believed in. My idea . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. "I honestly believe." Why don't you honestly believe?

Yogi Bhajan: I believe that you honestly believe . . .

Prabhupāda: So you also try.

Yogi Bhajan: That's what I am saying. This is the time . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept this Bhagavad-gītā as the standard knowledge and preach it.

Yogi Bhajan: I read it, I preach it, I understand it. That is my concept.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. That is wanted.

Yogi Bhajan: What I am trying to reach is that this concept which you honestly believe as individual must be shared.

Prabhupāda: No, no. I, again you take . . . why "I honestly believe"? Why you honestly do not believe?

Yogi Bhajan: Well, every honest understanding will believe that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogi Bhajan: There is no individuality in that . . .

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Yogi Bhajan: But still there is individuality.

Prabhupāda: No individuality. Then suppose you are leader of a group. If you honestly believe, teach them. They will accept it.

Yogi Bhajan: So that is why we are having understanding, why we are to gather today at this point. Because we understand that one particle . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if we accept, if we try to convince the people that, "We haven't got to research how to unite the whole world. The things are already there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Accept it and follow it, everything will be done."

Yogi Bhajan: Come for a message then.

Prabhupāda: Message is already there. I am giving you the message.

Yogi Bhajan: Well, they are coming about lot of people, and they would like to understand and . . . what is special about . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ (BG 3.21). If you carry this message . . . it is not my message; it is the message of Kṛṣṇa. I have not manufactured this message. I am imperfect. But I am presenting the perfect message. That is my business. I don't say I am perfect. I am simply carrier, peon. When a peon delivers a money order, thousand dollars, it is not his money. He simply carries. So my business is to carry Kṛṣṇa's message. That's all.

Yogi Bhajan: It is very kind of you. But if you carry this message to New Mexico, to all those guys, (laughing) it will be a great joy.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yogi Bhajan: I am also carrying the message of those limited ones who want to share the unlimited ones. And that's what the whole attempt was, to provide a platform where limited, unlimited . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . . first of all the . . . just like you are leader, similarly, all the leaders must accept.

Yogi Bhajan: Yes, Swami Dhirendra . . .

Prabhupāda: Then the followers will accept.

Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacari has flown all the way from India to just participate in that. Other people, ācārya. . .

Prabhupāda: Who is . . . who is that? Swami Dhirendra . . .?

Bali-mardana: President?

Yogi Bhajan: Prime minister's guru.

Bali-mardana: What is his name?

Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacari. He has flown . . .

Prabhupāda: But prime minister guru, does he believe in Bhagavad-gītā?

Yogi Bhajan: Oh, yeah. He knows it by heart, word to word. That's true.

Prabhupāda: So why he does not teach his disciples, followers?

Yogi Bhajan: He teaches. He teaches. He teaches. He's a very good man. And there are other ācāryas, and Shankaracarya Math and other people are coming. We have the list in Los Angeles, about sixteen who have accepted to come. Then from the Judeo-Christian thought-way people are participating. And then . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they will come and they will go away, that's all.

Yogi Bhajan: No, understand . . .

Prabhupāda: There will be . . . there will be no understanding. I know that. There will be no understanding. You can write it down in your notebook. They will come, and they will say, and they will go away, that's all. I have dealt with all these men very nicely. You see?

Yogi Bhajan: I understand the pain, but still . . .

Prabhupāda: And still you may go on, taking this pain.

Yogi Bhajan: (laughs) Effort, effort. There is nothing wrong to put that honest effort. Because lot things you can say which I cannot say.

Prabhupāda: No, I do not say anything.

Yogi Bhajan: You have experience.

Prabhupāda: Whatever I have said, I am quoting from the Bhagavad-gītā. You have seen it. I don't say anything. I never say: "It is my opinion," "I think." No, I never say like that.

Yogi Bhajan: This style, they will look at it and like it. And there will be nobody else who can exactly present this style.

Prabhupāda: If you like to go me, I can go there. That's all right.

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, yeah, it must . . . it is . . . my basic idea is you in Kṛṣṇa consciousness can present a style which a Judeo, a rabbi, may not be in a position to do it.

Prabhupāda: That is certain. Nobody can present.

Yogi Bhajan: All right. Then that guy, that guy has the love for his conviction. Where mutual convictions can meet and still create a harmony . . . my honest opinion is that it is the time. World has become small. Kṛṣṇa consciousness has spread. Message of Guru Nanak has spread. Message of Lord Rāma has spread. Message of Jesus has spread. Message of Moses has spread. All right. Now the spread is going to interact. And in that, somebody with this style can come in and can represent right. You will be my personal guest, and you will be in a position . . . we will do whatever personally we can do for that whole situation. But it will be a good idea to talk to all these people, to make them understand, and from when your mouth the person will understand why Hare Kṛṣṇa person goes on the street and chant . . . they have got fundamental things to say. They do not know. They have different versions to hear, they have versions to talk.

Prabhupāda: No, it is . . . we are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That, (aside) find out the . . . Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām (BG 9.14).

Yogi Bhajan: Kali-yuga met kīrtana pradhana. Now Śrī Guru Grantha says, Guru Nanak writes himself, correct versions are many, but my idea is: it is good to hear from you.

Prabhupāda: That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Yogi Bhajan: I know.

Prabhupāda:

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ

yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ

namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā

nitya-yuktā upāsate

(BG 9.14)

This is upāsate. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām.

Yogi Bhajan: I would like you to meet that great Sanatana-dharma representative, who will be coming.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogi Bhajan: Sanātana-dharma Pratirini is sending their representative. I forget his name. It is much better he hears from you among the . . . among the wise.

Prabhupāda: What is that verse?

Devotee:

satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ

yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ

namasyantaś ca māṁ bhaktyā

nitya-yuktā upāsate

(BG 9.14)

"Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me . . ."

Prabhupāda: We are doing that, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says: "Always chanting My glories." And we are doing that—"Hare Kṛṣṇa." We are not introducing anything new. That is not our business.

Yogi Bhajan: So we will have the privilege to have this ancient one among us for those three days, and be there and present your style and your . . .

Prabhupāda: When, when, when is . . .

Devotee: When is the date?

Yogi Bhajan: It is twenty . . .

Yogi Bhajan girl: 27th, 28th . . . could you get my . . . (indistinct) . . .? 27th, 28th and 29th.

Śrutakīrti: Of this month.

Yogi Bhajan: June.

Prabhupāda: June.

Śrutakīrti: That is this month?

Prabhupāda: This month, yes.

Yogi Bhajan: This month, June.

Prabhupāda: New Mexico.

Śrutakīrti: It is not very far from Los Angeles if you wanted to go. Maybe an hour flight.

Yogi Bhajan: No, hour and a half. We will receive you at Albuquerque. And we would like you to come the day the other Indian gurus are coming, because we would like to receive them at the airport, and we would like to have state banquet arranged for every visitors. And our basic idea is to bring understanding among all men of God. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Good idea.

Yogi Bhajan: And in spite of the fact nothing may happen . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Yogi Bhajan: Something will happen.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Yogi Bhajan: At least, people will know you, people will have met you, people who have never met you, that way. So whosoever come will come with the God will, and whosoever will do something will do something with the God will. And we will enjoy the experience to be the host, and that I think is our karma. We must pay that.

Prabhupāda: No, the thing is that is if we want to do something substantial, we must come on a common platform. That common platform is already there. Every line of Bhagavad-gītā is so nice. . .

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but sir . . .

Prabhupāda: Nobody can argue on it.

Yogi Bhajan: You have to provide the opportunity for those who will not have the chance to meet you to meet you, those who have no opportunity to listen to you to listen to you, those who have not seen you to see you. And I think that has its value. I never . . . I would never have gone to meet Sant Kirpal Singh. He came. And there the idea of this Unity of Man Conference was framed. And I left all the way to India, and I asked him one thing which I loved in him. He said: "Well, I am going to die next year. You take over," and I said: "Forget it. That's not my job. I'm not going to take over anything from anybody. I have to do what I have to do." Then he said: "Well, this is the idea. Would you try to be second with me in this time?" I said: "All right, I'll do that." And in the end I almost was convinced that he is a great man. And he asked me, he said: "You don't believe in anybody except God, I mean to say. Human forms are very . . . I understand you, I know you," because he knows me from very childhood. But I asked him one thing. I said: "I have never seen a saint on whom saints believe. They all have their own territories and whole thing." You know.

Prabhupāda: Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam (CC Madhya 17.186): "He is not a muni if he does not disagree with another muni."

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's right. (laughter) So what I told him was that, "It is a good idea." So we are carrying that good idea now, and Muni Sushila Kumar is coming from India, then Swami Chidananda is leading that tour. And they have sent a list of sixteen other religious people who are coming. They are going to UNO, where the peace presentation this year is happening. I think we should participate in that. Then there is a vegetarian congress. There the participation is happening. And all this has been done just to lay the platform and honor the idea of that man Kirpal Singh Sant. Just he wanted that way. So we thought it is a better idea to be in the West and with the arrangements that everybody can come, participate, talk to each other. I would like you to be in New Mexico in one of the presentable cabin, and not let anybody of these devotee of you be around, but to ask other people to come and talk to you, learn from you, share with you, share your wisdom, share your conviction, share your experience . . .

Prabhupāda: That's a good idea, very good.

Yogi Bhajan: And I like all these guys to come and talk to me, and when they will listen me talking Gītā, perhaps they will understand, "Well, Yogiji knows little bit about what we know about." So when they pronounce certain words, I just sometime correct in between, but I don't tell them anything because they know . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is your headquarter?

Yogi Bhajan: Los Angeles. We are neighbors.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Los Angeles.

Yogi Bhajan: We are almost neighbors. We are few blocks from each other.

Prabhupāda: Now, when you have started?

Yogi Bhajan: About five years ago. Six years.

Prabhupāda: Six years. We started there in the . . .

Śrutakīrti: About the same time.

Yogi Bhajan: About you when it came in Illustrated Weekly, I was in India.

Prabhupāda: Oh, oh.

Yogi Bhajan: So I am very recent here. But I go to Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is your address in Los Angeles?

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. They all come Sunday. They come to our Gurudwara on every Sunday. People participate. We have our magazine, and this was our anniversary renaisance, which we issued . . . rather, I was planning if some of your ācārya can come and I can give them a program for Kṛṣṇa consciousness development and authoritative human aspects of Gītā, which I teach in UCLA; they can participate and start courses in that. Because everybody is special in certain areas, and I thought that was a better idea. However . . .

Prabhupāda: These pictures of . . .?

Yogi Bhajan: This is Golden Temple, Amritsar.

Prabhupāda: Amritsar.

Yogi Bhajan: Five years ago we had a one-paper print. We used to give it away for five cents. That developed into a paper. This is how everything develops. And my basic idea is people must share. And why not come there, participate, share, say what you have to say? It is one of the funny coincidence that we both live in Culver City. We live very adjoining to each other. And I go to your temple, see how it is made and how they are doing and what kind of marble they are using. And I have a lot of things to criticize, but . . . you know. They are messing it up, but they are spending a lot of money. (laughter) So I don't mind what they are doing, but it is really a waste, lot of it is waste. I go and watch and it hurts me. But I just go around see, after all. You must have very wise architects.

Prabhupāda: They are very expert in wasting. (laughter)

Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that I have seen. That is totally what annoys me sometime, and then I go, I say: "Well, say you have to learn this way. It doesn't matter." Now, the Mexico marble has a flower arranged in it. Everybody has two eyes, and that flower arrange can be arranged, and none of your persons, in spite of my . . . one day I yelled at them and say: "I am going to pull your out of your this little hair, and what are you doing, waste of time?" They said: "Well, we have to ask some mahātmā, some ācārya. Someone will tell him the message." I went again next day. They did it exactly what was wrong. But you know, they are kids. They will learn. So I go and poke my nose all the time because I thought if I can tell them, they will do it better. But my basic situation is we are doing . . .

Prabhupāda: The Americans, they have no value for their money.

Yogi Bhajan: No, no, nothing.

Prabhupāda: Therefore they can waste very lavishly.

Yogi Bhajan: But they are very beautiful people. One of the girl there in your organization almost brought tears to my eyes. And it is very seldom I have tears, and I love them when they come. And she said to me, she just came and hugged me, "Oh, Yogiji, I love you, you came." I said: "Oh, don't tell anybody. I just want to go around. And I want to run away." So she knows me. And she took me to her one store where there were a lot of books, and she asked me to have some books, and some of them I had, some I didn't. So I picked up. And she said, "Well, you know, we were raised like dogs. Now we are being raised like gods. You think this old man, our god, is going to stay with us?" You know, she is very young in your organization. I said: "What are you talking, a old man?" She said: "Our Prabhupāda." Then she took your whole name with reverence. And I looked in her eyes. I said: "Look, my dear daughter, if that man has taught you so much love, then you will never be separated. Keep doing what you are doing. You will be all right." There is devotion. There is a power to learn. There is a power to give. They have many faults, but they have many merits also. I think it is a time to present them, as they perform of the humanist to the whole world. And that will take away a lot of misunderstandings.

Prabhupāda: No, misunderstanding, there are . . . that will continue. You see?

Yogi Bhajan: I hundred percent agree. When we wanted to join the American . . .

Prabhupāda: Especially in the Western countries they had misunderstanding with Christ, so that they crucified him. You see? So this is the . . .

Yogi Bhajan: We can do all that, and still, it will be useful.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we can . . . we can advise.

Yogi Bhajan: Your visit will be useful, and it will be very divine to come with a message, with a conviction. You know, I have come to this conference here.

Prabhupāda: Which conference?

Yogi Bhajan: This, what is happening in Waikiki.

Yogi Bhajan girl: Rainbow Festival.

Yogi Bhajan: That Rainbow Festival.

Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that?

Yogi Bhajan: There is a huge conf . . . there are about two hundred people all around the mainland and the whole thing.

Yogi Bhajan girl: Metaphysical conference, psychics.

Yogi Bhajan: Metaphysical, there are psychics, intuitives, people who can perform things. They are all in God. I was surprised last night that A to Z, everybody talks about God, and none of them understands that the God is right in them. So I was one among them. It did change the whole thing. I honestly believe that it was very good for me to come. If I would have gone into the equals, where if I find some equal, it would not have done any good, you know. They all know what they know. We all know that what we know. But it was amazing that people liked it, people talked, people asked questions, people . . . whatever I could share, I shared. But in the evening I was surprised. There were two hundred people, beautiful, seeking some way or the other, and looking for certain things for their life. So my only idea was that I have never worked less than these five, six days. It was very boring for me. There was no work. But I liked it. At least, I could share with them; they could share with me. First they were all doubtful what a yogī is, what a yoga is. I said: "Well, it is . . ." After all, they were not asking me a yogurt. So there is a safety. So people, when people see you they hate you, they find you are different, that you taught something which you taught. They don't like it. They don't want to hear it. And gradually, gradually, gradually, it brings in to understanding. So I, my personal request, and on behalf of all those who are coming, I would like you to visit us if you possibly can and. . .

Prabhupāda: (aside) Give some prasāda.

Yogi Bhajan: And this is . . . because this is time of the world where love has to prevail from the higher and from the lower equal.

Prabhupāda: Put it here. Thoda prasad ljiye aap log. Aap pehle lijiye. Aap log lijiye. (All of you please take some prasadam. You take first. You people take.)

Yogi Bhajan: All these young people walk into the āśramas, and any time, mid of night, they are always received. That understanding exists anywhere. Nobody has issued them any instructions. But they go with each other very well. Some of our boys who started with us in yoga classes are member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Sometime we get on telephone. I say: "At least you are somewhere. It's all right. Take care of yourself. Keep up." So life is going on as it has to go on.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice.

Yogi Bhajan: But there is a lot of mutual love, understanding. And after all, this is a discipline. All can't have this discipline. Those who can have it, they can have it. Jaise puni pralabh, taise hukm kamaye. (As you get pralabha, so you get order.) Understanding is there, pralabha is there, will of God is there. God wants us; we are the pawns of it. But it will be a great joy. So I will ask for leave. It's my pleasure.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much for your coming. Give him our literature, Back to Godhead. Bahut meharbanee. (Thanks for your kindness.)

Yogi Bhajan: Sasriyakaal. Namaskara. (Obeisances. Greetings.) And we will, we will get you, receive you, and it will be our privilege. After all, you are our elder. Don't forget that. Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Yogi Bhajan: And now these people forget sometimes their Hare Rāma, why? (guests are leaving) Aap baithiye, aap baithiye, nahi-nahi, accha nahi lagta. (You sit down, you sit down. No, no—it doesn't look nice.) Thank you very much. (break) (tape continues as guests leave, sound of car driving away, devotees talking in background about arrangements)

Prabhupāda: They are gone?

Paramahaṁsa: Yes, they just left.

Prabhupāda: This is our or their?

Bali-mardana: No, that is . . . from downstairs.

Paramahaṁsa: I know one devotee was a . . . there was one devotee who was a disciple of him before he came to us. He used to live with Yogi Bhajan about ten years ago in San Francisco. Not ten years ago; about eight, nine years ago in San Francisco. And he said that when he first came, he was a professor from India. But then he associated with the hippies for some time and became a . . .

Prabhupāda: He was Indian?

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he's from India. You mean Yogi Bhajan or the devotee?

Prabhupāda: No, the devotee.

Paramahaṁsa: No, the devotee . . . I think the devotee is Rāmeśvara.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: Rāmeśvara used to be (laughs) Yogi Bhajan's disciple.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Why he left him?

Paramahaṁsa: (laughs) Because he, I think because he met you. He was his disciple, and then he became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness afterwards, by Kṛṣṇa's grace. But he said Yogi Bhajan was too much associating with women.

Prabhupāda: That is the . . .

Paramahaṁsa: Yes. That was the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: (bangs mṛdaṅga) Many devotees, they put it in the sun when it becomes dead. Is that all right, to tighten the head?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . Yogi Bhajan, when did he come here?

Paramahaṁsa: At most eight years, seven or eight years.

Prabhupāda: So less than we are.

Paramahaṁsa: Oh, yeah. You were here long before he was here. I think he came . . .

Bali-mardana: 1968 he came. So you came three years before he came.

Paramahaṁsa: I have seen his āśramas in America. I saw one in Arizona. He has quite a large āśrama there. And I saw some of his smaller ones in . . . (indistinct)

Bali-mardana: I've seen them in Brooklyn, but it was just an apartment. It was not really an āśrama.

Paramahaṁsa: They have, in Phoenix, Arizona, they have a very nice place, very large building.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Paramahaṁsa: Phoenix, Arizona. It's similar to our Los Angeles branch. I think they tried to make . . . they have buildings, block buildings nearby, apartments for householders. In many ways they are imitating our movement.

Prabhupāda: But there is no Deity?

Bali-mardana: No, they worship the . . . (break) (end)