701107 - Conversation - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1970

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

701107R1-BOMBAY - November 07, 1970 - 47:11 Minutes

Prabhupāda: These are also done within these five years.

Guest (1): And that, too, in the foreign countries, to establish that, it is . . .

Guest (2): Yes, it's a wonderful thing. I was all the while imagining, imagining . . .

Prabhupāda: So I went in USA without any sponsor. No, I . . . that is the . . . one gentleman sponsored for one month. One month only. Not even one month; I remained there only three weeks, and then I chalked out my plan. He was my friend's son, and my friend wrote him that "You sponsor Swāmījī for one month."

Guest (1): Some American gentleman?

Prabhupāda: No, Indian. One gentleman from Agra. So his son immediately sent me, sponsoring. But still, the government objected that, "We cannot allow you to go there, because you are sponsored by an individual person." But I wanted to see chief controller of . . . what is called, foreign exchange, Mr. Rao. So he kindly accepted: "Yes, Swāmījī, you can go." He fought . . . (indistinct)

Guest (2): That time it was very difficult. Passport I have got already.

Prabhupāda: Passport, visa.

Guest (2): Now, the difficulty is about visa only. Passport I have secured. It's cleared it for three years . . . (indistinct) . . . passport. Now it is easy to get a passport. I do possess. After getting the passport I wrote and corresponded with your . . .

Prabhupāda: So there was no money with me, and in an awkward position . . . my philosophy is completely different. I was to ask them to cease from four kinds of sinful activities, and they are habituated to these things. Illicit sex, and drinking wine, and intoxication and gambling—these are their daily affairs. So I was thinking, "I have to stop this. Who will hear me?" But Kṛṣṇa . . . everything became . . .

Guest (1): May I ask one thing? How you chose this America to be your first?

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja ordered me that, "You go and preach this cult amongst the English-speaking public, and especially in the Western countries." So first of all I thought of London, where is London. But I had no money. So I got the opportunity of going U.S.A. free on the, on a trade ship by the Scindia Steam Navigation. They gave me their first-class cabinet, the proprietor's cabinet. I was well carried. But first of all I went free on a steamship. I had no money, what to speak of aeroplane. So . . . what was your question?

Guest (1): My question was that how you selected America to be your first . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So I got the opportunity to go to America because their ship goes to New York. So I accepted, "All right, we can see, either go to London or New York." New York is better place than London.

Guest (1): I see. There are number of Indians in New York. In New York, Indians are . . .

Prabhupāda: No. In London there are many Indians.

Guest (1): In London, they say, there are about twelve lakhs of Indians in London.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There are many Indians. In the street you will find it is just like ordinary Indian city. Baithiye. (Please take a seat.)

Guest (3): (indistinct) . . . he's my old friend.

Guest (4): We both are coming from Horir, leaving Delhi after . . . (indistinct) . . . we are interested in this Gītā-jayantī Mahotsava, and we shall be more interested in you also. You are coming . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Guest (4): So this is Sudhir Kumar Sharma. He's an . . . a learned man. He has brought this tape recorder. He has come to tape your interview. Last night we met Mr. Ja.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Guest (4): And he has permitted us to tape your interview for our paper. So if you don't mind, we shall ask some questions.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (4): And we'll finish before you go there.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. No, my men will go. Even if I am a little late, it doesn't matter. (to devotees) So you go there and join at night. Then I will come in.

Guest (4): (indistinct) . . . America from the last five, six years back and incorporated this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement there. That means to say that it is Kṛṣṇa alone, it is bhakti of Kṛṣṇa alone through which you can have God realization, and Kṛṣṇa alone . . . (indistinct) . . . servant of Lord Kṛṣṇa and . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is God. People are searching after "Where is God?"—but they are missing Kṛṣṇa. That is the dilemma of the present society.

Guest (4): You have written number of books also . . . (indistinct) . . . volumes are there. It is not only appealing to your eyes but to your heart and to your soul. By the very look of the book, our heart is . . . rather, our soul is elated, and we come into that state of mind. Huh? So after reading this, we don't know what stage will come. See how beautiful . . . (indistinct)

Guest (5): (indistinct) . . . will they be answering in Hindi or English?

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Guest (5): This gentleman. You'll be answering in Hindi or English?

Prabhupāda: As you like.

Guest (5): They know Hindi.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Guest (6): Hum Hindi jante hai. Aap puch sakte hai. Kuch kuch jante hai hum. (We know Hindi. You may ask. We know somewhat.)

Guest (7): No, no. If you want to put questions in English, Swāmījī will reply in English. If you want to put in Hindi, hope . . . yesterday I heard him in Hindi, I had the good fortune, and I can say with my understanding that he is equally past master in Hindi, although . . . (laughter) Yesterday we had the good occasion and the good fortune of hearing him in Hindi as well . . . (indistinct)

Guest (8): Disciples will speak English only.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they do not speak.

Guest (8): They probably don't know Hindi.

Prabhupāda: No.

Guest (7): And I will also give you one song, you see, so that you may know that collection is me . . . as a memory for me of my great svami, for whom I was always thinking for the last more than six months.

Guest (6): Swamiji, aap Bharatiya darshan se kis prakar prabhavit huye? (Swāmījī, how were you influenced by Indian philosophy?)

Prabhupāda: Ye to bachpan se humara pitaji sikhaya tha. (My father taught me since my childhood.) . . . I was born, Vaiṣṇava family. My father was a great devotee. Naturally, he gave me . . . Oh, I am speaking in Hindi . . . English. Pitaji humko is vishay me shikshan diya tha. Pitaji humko Radha-Krishna murti bachpan me diya tha. Mai uska seva karta tha. Apna bachpan me ladkan log jo hai khelta tha, Rathayatra. Pitaji humko mridanga bajana sikhaya tha. Jo bachpan me pitaji sikhaya tha, wahi chiz hum sara duniya me prachar kar rahe hai. Idhar European countries me, paschatya desh me Rathyatra ho raha hai. San Francisco, London, aap log shayad tasvir dekha hoga. Udhar tasvir rakha hai . . . (indistinct) . . . Pacchis tees hazar foreigners pura shamil hote hai, prasad dete hai aur Radha Govind vigraha chalis pachas mandir hai. Sab jagah me Radha-Krishna mandir hai. Jo humara sab shishya hai, wo bakayda Vedic niyam sab achara, vyavahar, sadachar sab mante hai aur Bhagavad kirtan karte hai aur ye sab kitab unko diya hai . . . aisa mota mota kitab kam se kam barah choudah diya hai. Ye log din bhar usko padhte hai. To jo humko pitaji sikhaya tha, fir Guru Maharaj sikhaya tha, wahi fir mai bhi prachar kar raha hun. Aur dekha raha hun ye bohot acchi tarah se paschatya desh ke jo people hai, wo grahan kar rahe hai. (My father gave me knowledge about this path. He gave me Radha-Krsna deities in my childhood. I used to serve them. I used to take out Rathayatra while playing with my friends. My father taught me how to play mrdanga. So whatever my father taught me during my childhood, I am preaching about it all over the world. Rathayatra is held in European countries and many foreign countries. Like in San Francisco, London . . . you may have seen the pictures. They are kept there . . . (indistinct) . . . 25 to 30 thousand foreigners gather and prasadam is distributed to them. There are 40 to 50 temples of Radha-Govinda deities. There is Radha-Krsna temple everywhere. So all my disciples follow the ethics, behaviour and virtues according to Vedic rules. They do Bhagavad kirtan and the books I have given to them . . . those thick books . . . I have given at least 12 to 14 books. They read all day and night. So whatever my father and Guru Mahārāja taught me, I am preaching those same things. I have seen that these foreign countries have accepted this literature.)

Guest (6): Vishwa me apke jo anubhav hai Hindu dharma ke prati usme apne ek astha anubhav kiya hai? (From the global experience you have, do you feel that people naturally believe in Hindu dharma?)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, Hindu dharma ke prati unko kuch astha nahi hai. Kyu unka astha hoga? Unka Christian dharma hai, unka Jewish dharma hai. (No, they have no faith in Hindu dharma. Why should they have faith? They have Christian dharma, they have Jewish dharma.) They are not attracted to the Hindu dharma.

Guest (6): Then why they attracted to Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. These people, they are Wo Krishna se akarshit hai, Hindu dharma me akarshit nahi hai. Ye paschatya desh me yehi khyal tha je Hindu dharma me anek bhagavan hai. Bat bhi aisi unke samne prastut kiya gaya tha . . . jo jitne pehle pehle swami the . . . ek to Bhagavan unka swarup kuch hai hi nahi, nirakar hai. Aur apko jaisi chahiye ek swarup man lijiye. Yehi philosophy preach kiya. Ki Bhagavan hai nirakar. (They are attracted to Krsna not to Hindu Dharma. In foreign countries their idea was that there are many Gods in Hindu dharma. Previously all the swamis presented before them that God does not have any form. He is formless. Just accept any form of God as you like. They preached this kind of philosophy that God is formless.)

Guest: Par ham nam smaran se aur dharma ko alag nahi kar sakte. (But we cannot separate chanting of Lord's names from religion.)

Prabhupāda: Aap suniye to. Hindu philosophy mane, yehi prachar tha Hindu log ka anek bhagavan hai. Aur impression wo hota hai, jo idhar Gita Bhavan me hai, koi aye foreigner to wo dekhega jo itna bhagavan hai. Ye Brahma Ji hai, wo Shiva Ji hai aur sabhi bhagavan hai. Ye jo Hindu dharma hai, is Hindu dharma me wo log khush nahi. Unka toh diya gaya hai Krishna. (Just listen first. It was preached that Hindu philosophy means they have multiple Gods. And any foreigner coming to Gita Bhavan gets the impression there are so many Gods. There is Brahma, there is Shiva . . . everyone is God. They are not interested in the Hindu dharma which is present there. They want to glorify Kṛṣṇa.) But you are taking Kṛṣṇa as Hindu. That is your mistake. Kṛṣṇa is . . . Hindu no. He is God. He is God. God Hindu nahi hai, Mussulman nahi hai, Christian nahi hai, Parsi nahi hai—God is God. Isliye wo log isme akarshit hai. Mai God ko as it is present kar raha hun. Ye nahi hai jo bohot God hai, tum bhi God hai, ye bhi God hai. Aj tak jaisa humara Hindu swami log gaya hai, ye prachar kiya hai. Ye prachar nahi mai karta hun. Isliye wo log Hindu dharma me akarshit nahi hai. Thoda samajhiye. Wo akarshit hai Krishna. (God is not Hindu, not Muslim, not Christian, not Parsi—God is God. Therefore, they are interested in this. I am presenting God as it is. It is not that there are many gods, you are also God, I am also God. Until now, all the Hindu swamis who went there, preached this philosophy but I do not preach this. That’s why they are not interested in Hindu dharma. Try to understand. They are attracted to Kṛṣṇa.) And I am also not interested to preach Hindu dharma. Isme kya fayda hoga? Ek admi Mussulman hai, isko Hindu bana diya. To isme kya parivartan hai. Uska mentality jo tha wahi reh gaya. Wo khali rubber—stamp dene se kya wo kaam ho jata hai? (What is the benefit? One man is Muslim and he becomes Hindu. So what is the difference? Whatever the mentality he had it is still the same. If you just put rubber stamp, does the work get done?)

Guest: Nahi, sir apne abhi dharma ki bat ki. To kya . . . (No, sir you talked about dharma just now. So then?)

Prabhupāda: Dharma ka bat to hum log kehte hai jo. (When we talk about dharma it is about) . . . Kṛṣṇa dharma. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the only dharma.

Guest: To kya aap ek Mussulman ko, aap isme . . . (indistinct) . . . kar sakte hai? (So can you make a Muslim interested in this?)

Prabhupāda: Bohot Mussulman hai humara, bohot Mussulman hai. (We have many Muslims in our movement.)

Guest: Kaha se, Hindustan se hai ki bahar se? Kaun se, udahran dijiye. Unhone ye Hare Krishna . . . (From where, India or foreign countries? Give some example. Have they taken to Hare Kṛṣṇa?)

Prabhupāda: Bahar ke hai. England me hai, German me hai. Bilkul aise jaise ye log. Mussulman aur Christian aur Jewish . . . sabhi hai humare pas. Ye log Krishna me akarshit hai. Jo kuch humara literature. (They are from foreign countries. They are in England, Germany. They are the same like us. We have Muslims, Christians, Jewish . . . we have everyone. So these people are attracted toward Kṛṣṇa. Whatever literature we have, it is) . . . Kṛṣṇa literature. It is not a Hindu dharma literature. Hindu dharma ka to bohot lamba chauda hota hai, hazaro. (It is very big and lengthy, thousands.)

So they are not interested in many gods, Durga, Kali, or Śiva, or . . . Hai to ye sab sirf demigods. (They are only demigods.) But Bhagavad-gītā as it is . . . Bhagavan jo hai, wo to kehte hai sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja. Ekam. Krishna kehte hai jo sab dharma ko chodh karke humare charano me sharanagat ho jao. Iska matlab hai yehi dharma hai. Aur sab dharma nahi hai. Yadi aap . . . (God says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Ekam. Kṛṣṇa is telling that leave all the religions and surrender unto my feet. It means that it is the only dharma, others are not. If you . . .) strictly, if you take the version of Bhagavad-gītā, why Bhagavān says that, "You give up all religion. Simply you take to the shelter of My feet?" That means to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet is the only religion. Kripaya samajhiye. Bhagavan kehte hai jo dharma samsthapanarthaya. Mai dharma samsthapan karne ke liye avatar liya hu. Aur akhri me bolta hai ki sarva dharman parityajya. Wo kaun dharma samsthapan karne ke liye Krishna aya? Wahi ke sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja. Wahi dharma hai. (Just try to understand. God says that dharma saṁsthāpanārthāya (BG 4.8). I have incarnated for establishing religion and at the end He says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Which dharma did He come to establish? It is this sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. That is only dharma.)

Guest: Mera matlab yeh Swamiji, yadi aap Hindustan me se yadi koi nam smaran videsho me le jate hai to videshiyo ke prati uski itni shraddha hoti hai. Jaise Vivekananda hai agar unhone Hindu dharma ki or, Sanatana dharma ka jo hai, ye Hindustan ki image videsho me taiyar ki. Aisa aap kya kar rahe hai? (Swamiji, I mean to say that when someone takes the chanting of Lord's names from India to the West, then they show so much faith in that. Just like Vivekananda created an image of Hindu dharma and India in the western world. Are you doing something like that?)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, nahi. Aisa kuch nahi kiya Vivekananda ne. Vivekananda image kaha khada kiya. Vivekananda gaya tha prachar karne ke liye Vedanta aur Chicago me jo Vedanta ka speech diya tha . . . wo toh samajh lijiye . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. Aur wo speech aap dekhiyega . . . usme zyada bolne ka nahi chahta hai. (No, no. Vivekananda did not do anything like that. Where did Vivekananda create an image? Vivekananda went for preaching Vedanta and the speech that he gave in Chicago . . . that was . . . (indistinct) . . . if you hear that speech . . . I don't want to speak much about it.) Practically that was against Hindu conception. Dusri bat hai Vivekananda . . . aur koi bhi gaya tha. Vivekananda gaya tha 1893. 1893 se aaj '70, kitna varsh hoga? Assi varsh. Un log ka assi varsh se kaam chal raha hai, char panch kendra hai. New York me do hai, Los Angeles me hai. Aur kai jagah hai. Ye assi varsh me unka char panch kendra hai aur humara teen varsh me kam se kam tees kendra hai. Aur unka jo kendra hai, usme actually American dedicated soul bohot kam hai. Aur humara kendra me kam se kam pacchis se pachas, ek ek kendra me. Aur uska namuna ye hai. To aap log vichar kar lijiye ki Vedanta prachar se zyada phal huya, ye Krishna kirtan karne se, Bhagavad-gita as it is present karne se zyada phal huya. (The second thing is Vivekananda . . . someone else also went. Vivekananda went in 1893. How many years have passed from 1893 to 1970? Eighty years. They have been working for 80 years and they have 4 to 5 centers. They have two in New York, in Los Angeles and many other different places. So they have 4 to 5 centers within 80 years and we have created at least 30 centers within 3 years. There are very few American dedicated souls in their centers. And we have at least 25 to 50 in each center. Therefore this is the result. I will let you judge now whether Vedanta preaching got more profit or doing Kṛṣṇa kirtana and presenting Bhagavad-gītā got more profit.)

Guest: Krishna kirtan se videshi logo ke atmik shanti, wo milti hai? Kyu nischit ho rahe hai ki atmik shanti apki paribhasha hi hai? (By doing Kṛṣṇa kirtana are they getting peace? How can you be sure that peace of mind is your . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Nahi milti to kyu ate. Nahi, sarvasva tyag karke humara sath sath me rahte hai. Agar wo bewakuf hota to . . . (If they were not getting peace of mind, then why would they have come? No, they are giving up everything and staying with us. If they were foolish . . .)

Guest: Nahi, kya apke pas koi aisa upay nahi hai ki aap grihastha rahe aur atmik shanti mile? (No, don't you have any method by which they can remain as householders and get peace of mind?)

Prabhupāda: Sab grihastha hai. Ye to grihastha hai. (Everyone is grhastha. He is also grhastha.)

Guest: Par unhone jivan ka tyag kiya hai. (But they have renounced their life.)

Prabhupāda: Jivan ka tyag kiya kaha hai? Krishna se wo jo bhogamay jivan hai, duniya ka mai bhog karunga, isko tyag kiya hai. Duniya me jo karmi log hai wo chahte hai hum duniya ka bhog kare. Isi ka ladhai hai. Bas. Aur hum log jo philosophy hai, humara bhog karne ka kuch hai hi nahi. Humara to koi scene hi hai nahi. Ishavasyam idam sarvam. Bhagavan kehte hai bhumi apo analo vayu kham buddhi manor eva ca prakritir me bhinna ashtadha. (Where have they renounced their life? The life, that is full of sense enjoyment, is renounced. The karmi people in this world, they want to enjoy this material world. That is what the fight is about. And the philosophy we have, there is nothing to enjoy. There is absolutely no scene of sense enjoyment. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). God is saying bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ kham buddhi manor eva ca prakṛtir me bhinnā aṣṭadhā (BG 4.8).) They are my property. So aap kyu claim karte hai? Ki dusre ke property ko aap apna claim karte hai? Bhagavan kehte jo kuch aap chiz dekhiye, apka samne hai. Kya chiz hai? Yehi bhmi, pani, agni, vayu, akash, man, buddhi, ahankara. Yehi sab chiz se bani huyi hai. Ye sab chiz to Bhagavan kehte hai ye humari prakriti hai, humari chiz hai. To apko mila kaha chiz? To aap bhog kaise karenge. Aap dusre ka chiz aap lenge to aap chor hai. Bhagavad-gita me kehte hai yajna chodh karke jo apna bhog ke liye wo chor hai. Tum nahi wo sab use kar sakte. Jo Bhagavan ko nahi mante hai, Bhagavan ki sampatti nahi mante ye sab chor hai . . . (indistinct) . . . to aap chor ka society me kaise shanti apko milega? Boliye. Asambhav. Bhagavad-gita ke anusar sab chor hai. Kyunki Bhagavan ki sampatti ko apna sampatti kar liya. Chor bola ja sakta hai ki nahi. Jaise man liya jaye ye table humara hai, aap le jate hai, to aap chor hua. (indistinct) ka aj yadi yehi man liya jaye, jo kuch ingredients hai . . . aap makan banaya ye kya chiz ka hai? Mitti, pani, agni, vayu ye sab mix karke ye makan banaya hai? Accha jo ingredients hai, wo to aap bana nahi sakte, wo Bhagavan ka hai. Ye jo mitti hai, ye to apne banaya nahi. (So why do you claim others property to be yours. God says that whatever you are seeing, it is right in front of you. What is it? So it is land, water, fire, air, sky, mind and ego. Everything is made of this. God is telling all this is my property. Where did you get it? How are you going to enjoy it then? If you take others' materials then you are a thief. It is said in Bhagavad-gītā that without yajna, if it is taken for enjoyment, then they are thieves. You cannot use these substances. Those who don't obey God, those who don’t accept everything as God's property, they are all thieves. So how can you find peace in the society of thieves? It is impossible . . . so according to Bhagavad-gītā everybody is a thief. They take God's property and proclaim that it belongs to them. Tell me whether such a person can be called as thief or not. For example, this table belongs to me and if you take it away then you are a thief . . . (indistinct) . . . so if we accept all these ingredients . . . so you made a building, what does it consist of? Soil, water, fire, air . . . these are only mixed together to form a building. These ingredients which are there, you did not create them. It belongs to God. You cannot make this soil.)

Guest: Logo ka sach me consciousness me astha ya vishwas nahi hai to kya ye log Bhagavan ko prapt nahi kar sakte? (Today people really don't have any faith in God. So will they not be able to attain God?)

Prabhupāda: Bhagavan me astha hai hi nahi to Bhagavan kaise prapt hoga? Iska age jawab dijiye? Ki Bhagavan jab astha hi hai nahi to uska Bhagavan kaise milega? Pehle iska jawab dijiye. Jo Bhagavan ke upar kisika astha hai hi nahi to usko Bhagavan kaise milega? (If someone does not have faith in God, how is he going to get God? First answer this . . . if one does not have faith in God, how is he going to get God? First answer this, If someone does not have faith in God at all, how is he going to get God?)

Guest: Nahi, astha to hai. Apke nam lene se kuch hota hai, Bhagavan Krishna ka, keval uss nam ke upar astha na rakhenge . . . Bhagavan par to astha hai lekin is vyakti ko nam par astha nahi hai. (No, we have faith on God but if a person does not have faith that by taking Lord Kṛṣṇa's name, something will happen. He has faith in God but he does not have faith in God's name.)

Prabhupāda: Aap to bola inka astha nahi hai. To wo murkhta hai. Wo jo Bhagavan ke upar astha hai aur Bhagavan ke nam ke upar astha nahi hai, ye murkhta hai. Ye murkhta hai. (You just said he doesn't have faith. Then that is stupid. First he has faith in God and he does not have faith in God's name, then it is stupidity. It is stupidity.)

Guest: Mera ek prashna hai Swamiji ki aj ke vaigyanik yug me Bhagavan se darne ki kya zaroorat hai? (I have a question Swamiji, that in today's scientific age, what is the need to be afraid of God?)

Prabhupāda: Vaigyanik hone se fayda hua kya? Atom bomb banaya admi ko marne ke liye, bas ho gaya. Nahi, nahi darne ka koi bat nahi hai. (What did we gain from science? Atom bomb was created to kill human beings, that's it. No, we are not saying to be afraid.) We are not talking of God, darne ka. (fearing Him.) We are talking of love.

Why you misunderstand? Don't misunderstand the philosophy. We are teaching love of Godhead. It is not we are teaching that you become afraid of God Afraid to wo demon jo hoga, Bhagavan ka shatru hai, wo darega. Jaise Prahlad . . . (The demons and enemies of God will be fearful. Just like Prahlada . . .) (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . to jo bhakta hai wo Bhagavan se thode hi darta hai? Wo to Bhagavan ke kandha me uthta hai. (. . . (indistinct) . . . do the devotees get afraid of God? They climb on the shoulders of God.)

Guest: Nahi magar Arjuna ne Gita me fir kyu kaha ki Bhagavan Vishwarup . . . (indistinct) . . . (Then why did Arjuna say that God's Universal form . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ha! Kyu ki Arjuna ko Bhagavan khas rup se parichit tha. Wo jo virat rup dikhaya gaya, usse parichit nahi hai. Wo to hum ye nahi chahte. Ye rup darshan karke hum nahi chahte. Jo bhakta hote hai wo Bhagavan ka asal swarup hai, dwibhuj Muralidhar Krishna, usse hi wo love karte hai. (Because God is intimately known to Arjuna. Arjuna was not acquainted with the Universal form which was shown by God. That we do not want. A devotee loves the original two-handed Muralidhar Kṛṣṇa.)

Guest: Ek prashna aur puchna chahunga Swamiji ki Krishna nam ko lokapriya banane ke liye aap ke pas aur kya yojana hai? (I would like to ask one more question Swamiji that what are your plans to make Kṛṣṇa's name more popular?)

Prabhupāda: Wo Krishna nam hi hai. Krishna nam ko, usme Krishna nam hum log sab jagah pe hat pair pakadke canvass kar raha hun ki ap log Krishna nam kijiye. Yehi upay hai aur kya kar sakte hai. Jo badmash hote hai uska hat pair pakadke agar kaam kiya jaye to wahi kaam hum kar rahe hai. Dante nidhayat trinakam pado nipatya . . . mai apka charan me gir karke, apke samne hat jod karke bohot khushamadi karke ,hum log yehi kehte hai thoda sun lijiye. Yehi to humara kaam hai . . . (indistinct) . . . Inko dar dikhaya thoda hi. Inko bola bhai ao thoda suno aur sunte sunte ye sab bhakta ho gaya. Yehi upay hai. Wahi tarah se unka bulai. Woh thoda sthir hokar ke sune aur thoda Bhagavan ka prasad paye aur nartan bhi kare. Kya isme mushkil hai? (We are requesting everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is the only idea, There's nothing more we can do. We hold the hands and feet of rascals, if that works then we will be doing this only. Dante nidhayat trinakam pado nipatya . . . by falling at your feet, folding our hands and flattering you, we are requesting you to simply listen . . . (indistinct) . . . I never scared them. I told them please come and listen for sometime. By listening they became devotees. This is the only way. I called them to come, listen patiently, have the Lord's prasadam and dance. Where is the difficulty?) Bahut easy process hai. You come, sing, dance, and take prasādam. Is there any difficulty? If people come to us, in melodious songs they sing and they dance and when they are tired they take sumptuously prasādam, so what can be the more convenient way? Hum log yehi karte hain. (This is what we do.)

Guest: Lekin ye gyan yoga se athva kirtan se atirikt kya Bhagavan Krishna ko prapta karne . . . (Other than jnana yoga or kirtan, is there no other way to attain Lord Kṛṣṇa?)

Prabhupāda: Wo atirikt chize hai wo aj to sambhav nahi. Kaliyug me itna patit hai jiva wo atirikt wo kar nahi sakta. Wo dhyana bhi nahi kar sakta hai, wo pranayama bhi nahi kar sakta hai, wo vedanta bhi nahi samajh sakta ha aur wo karma kandi yajna bhi sadhan nahi kar sakta, kuch nahi kar sakta. Wo to khud hi dukhi hai. Karne ka kya hai, paisa bhi hai nahi? Ap samajh lijiye, ap bohot kuch karne ko chahta hai. (He cannot do any other thing because in Kali-yuga, people are extremely fallen. He cannot meditate, cannot do yoga, cannot understand vedanta, he cannot do karma kanda yajna, cannot do anything. He himself is sad. There is nothing for him to do. He does not have money. You can understand now, you want to do a lot of things.)

You are a qualified lawyer, but you cannot do for want of money. To ap ka yadi ye paristhiti hai aur jo murkh hai, kuch jante hi nahi hai, wo kya karenge? Kaliyug ka mas me koi karne ka shakti hai hi nahi abhi. Isliye ek hi, ye jo harer nam harer nam harer namaiva kevalam kalau nastyeva nastyeva . . . ye jo shastra ka nirdesh hai isi ko grahan karna chahiye. Isi me sab safal hoga. Isme koi kharch nahi hai, koi mushkil nahi hai aur ye shastra ka nirdisht hai upay. (If your situation is like this, then what are the fools and ignorant people going to do? In the age of Kali there is no one who has sufficient strength. That's why harer nam harer nam harer namaiva kevalam kalau nastyeva nastyeva . . . this sastric injunction should be accepted. This can benefit everyone. It has no cost. It is not difficult and it is Vedic remedy.)

Guest: To kuch vidvan log ye kehte hai ki roti-roti chillane se roti prapt nahi hoti to . . . to kya Ram nam kehne se . . . (Some scholars say that just like one cannot get a chapati by shouting "Chapati, chapati." Similarly . . . by taking Lord Rāma's name . . .)

Prabhupāda: Uska jawab yehi hai, wo vidvan to hai hi nahi, wo ek number murkh hai. Wo jante hi nahi ki Nam kya chiz hai aur wo Nam ke upar comment kar raha hai. (He is not a scholar, he is fool number one. He does not know what God's name and he is commenting upon it.) He has no right because he does not know what is name. Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ. Ap kaha na vidvan, vidvan agar hota to ye shastra wo samajhta. Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ purṇa siddha nitya mukta abhinnatva nām nāmino. Bhagavan Krishna ka nam aur Bhagavan Krishna me koi farak nahi hai. Wahi janta nahi to vidvan kaisa hoga? Wo to murkh hai. Wo to jante hi nahi nam kya chiz hai. Ap ko samajh me aya? Ap kaha na vidvan, to vivan jo hoga wo sab kuch jane. Jo janta hi nahi nam kya chiz hai, wo vidvan kaise hoga, wo to murkh hua. To murkh ka vachan se kya fayda hoga. Vidvan . . . (indistinct) . . . shastra ko samajhta. Ye vidvan Vyasdeva hai who compiled the shastra-samhita Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (sanskrit verse) . . . vidvan to wahi hai Vyasdeva. (You were talking about scholars but if they were scholars then they would have understood this scriptural statement. Nāma-cintāmaṇi-kṛṣṇaś caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ purṇa siddha nitya mukta abhinnatva nām nāmino (CC Madhya 17.133). There is no difference between God's name and God Himself. If he doesn’t know this then what kind of scholar he is. He is foolish. He doesn't know what the Holy Name is. Did you understand or not? The scholar should know everything but he doesn't even know what the holy name is. Then what kind of scholar he is. He is a fool. What is the value of a fool's words? Scholar . . . (indistinct) . . . understands the scriptures. The actual scholar is Vyasadeva who compiled Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (sanskrit verse) . . . the real scholar is Vyasadeva.)

Guest: Ap ka ye hai ki Srimad Bhagavatam ke atirikt duniya me, aur guru shishya parampara . . . (indistinct) (So you are saying that in this world except Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and guru shishya parampara . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, scriptures hai hi nahi chahiye ab. Dharma to anek prakar ka hai. Sattvik dharma hai, rajasik dharma hai, tamasik dharma hai. Wo to man liya humne dharma ka star bhi hota hai. Dharma jaisa Mussulman ka dharma hota hai aur Christian ke liye hota hai aur Vedic dharma hota hai. Ye jo teen guna hai duniya me, sattva, rajo, tamo, guna ke anusar dharma hota hai. Sab admi to ek nahi hai. Koi tamoguna me hai, koi satoguna me hai, koi rajoguna me hai. Isi prakar dharma bhi hai, tamasik dharma hai, rajasik dharma hai aur sattvik dharma hai. Ye sab Devi Kali ki puja karna aur ye bakri ka balidan dena, ye bhi to humare Veda me hi hai. Ye bhi to dharma hai. Kyu uska karan hai jo mas khayenge, uske liya banaya gaya hai, jo chodh nahi sakta. (There is no need for other scriptures. There are many types of religions, religion in the mode of goodness, mode of passion, mode of ignorance. We are accepting that there are different levels of religion. There is religion for Muslims, Christian and Vedic religion. The 3 modes of material nature which are present, sattva, raja, tama . . . the religion is formed according to that. Not every person is the same. Someone is in sattva guna, raja guna and tama guna. Similarly there is tamasik dharma, rajasik dharma and sattvik dharma. Worshiping Kali is there in the vedic literature, sacrificing a goat to Kali is there in our Vedic literature. That is also religion. It was made for those who want to eat flesh. Those who cannot give up.) Yes. Because you are responsible, if you cut the throat of a goat, then you'll be responsible. Just like in your jurist law, if you commit murder—you are lawyer, you have to be hanged. So, To ap kyu nahi isko samajhte hai jab sadharan state law me ye law hai, life for life. (Why can't you understand this, that in a general state law there is a law.". . . life for life.") So I am killing one life. I shall not be liable to repay by my life.

Guest (4): But then why the Vedas allow us to eat the meat of goat and other animals?

Prabhupāda: That is to restrict. Just like government opens liquor shop. That does not mean government is encouraging to drink. Those who are drunkard, going create disturbance, for them there is little concession. But they are responsible. If they become drunkard and causes some disturbance in the street, then he will be arrested by the police. He cannot say, "Oh, I have paid for the bottle." School colleges ka teacher log ka . . . (indistinct) School colleges me to sab bacche hai. Wo bacche ko jo sikhate hai unse arrangement kijiye. Wo samajh gaya, apna school nahi samjha. (The teachers in schools and colleges, they are . . . (indistinct) . . . everybody is just a kid in college. The people who teach the kids, make an arrangement with them) . . . (indistinct) . . . the bhakti is all-inclusive. Aur Bhagavad jnana me Brahma jnana, Paramatma jnana bhi isme hai. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Brahma, Paramatma, Bhagavan ye jo hai, advaya jnana. (In the Bhagavad knowledge there is Brahman knowledge, Paramatma knowledge. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Bhagavan, Brahman and Paramatma, this is advaya jnana.)

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

Brahma jnana, uske bad Paramatma jnana aur uske bad Bhagavad jnana. Jiska pas Bhagavad jnana ho gaya, uska pas Brahma jnana aur Paramatma jnana hai. Jiska pas keval Brahma jnana hai, uske pas Bhagavad jnana nahi hai. Jiska pas Paramatma jnana hai, uske pas bhi Bhagavad jnana nahi hai. (First Brahma knowledge, then Paramatma knowledge and after that Bhagavad knowledge. If someone has Bhagavad knowledge then he has both Paramatma and Brahma knowledge. One who has just Brahma knowledge, he does not have Bhagavad knowledge. One who has Paramatma knowledge, he does not have Bhagavad knowledge.) Brahmā-jñāna means . . . just like sunlight. You understand sunlight. That does not mean that you know sun disc. But both of them are light.

Guest (9): The brahma-jñāna has got a limited jurisdiction.

Prabhupāda: It is these things that . . . this is the . . . just like ordinary . . . (indistinct)

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam'

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa bhūtaṁ

(Bs. 5.40)

Brahma niṣkalam anantam . . . Wo ananta jo nirvishesha brahma hai usi ko bada mante hai. Aur wo jaha se nikalta hai, usko chota mante hai. Ha, jnana jo hai Brahma jnana aur Brahma jnana, Paramatma . . . yogi ke liye Paramatma jnana, jnani ke liye Brahma jnana aur bhakta ke liye Bhagavad jnana. To Bhagavan, Brahma, Param . . . (They consider the nirvishesha brahmajyoti as superior and the source of brahmajyoti as inferior. Yes, the knowledge is Brahma knowledge. Brahma knowledge and Paramatma, for yogis it is Paramatma knowledge, for jnanis it is Brahma knowledge and for devotees it is Bhagavad knowledge. So God Brahma, Paramatma . . .)

Guest (9): Different stages? Are there different stages?

Prabhupāda: Different features. Different features. Just like Sūryaloka or Sūryadeva or Sūrya-raśmi. Sūrya-raśmi jo hai wo Brahma jnana. Sūryaloka jo hai Paramatma jnana aur Sūryadeva jo hai Bhagavad jnana. (The Sūrya-raśmi is Brahma knowledge. Sūryaloka is Paramatma knowledge and Sūryadeva is Bhagavad knowledge.)

Guest (9): I see.

Prabhupāda: Teen chiz ek hi hai. Ek hi hai. Parantu . . . (The three things are one only. It is one only. But) . . . different stages. To pehli stage hai Brahma jnana, brahma bhuta. Brahma bhuta prasannatma. Ye duniya me jhanjhat me bohot dukhi hai. Brahma jnana hone se wo sukhi ho gaya. Brahma bhuta prasannatma. Atma prasanna ho gaya. Aham brahmasmi. Wo mukt ho gaya. (So, the first stage is Brahma knowledge, brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). He is very distressed because of complications in this material world. By receiving Brahma knowledge, he becomes happy. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. I am eternal. He becomes liberated.)

Guest (9): You have to try to come in second arya.

Prabhupāda: Then second, paramātmā-jñāna. Then bhagavat-jñāna. (break)

Guest (9):(indistinct) . . . Gita se Krishna Ji nikal diye jaye . . . (indistinct) . . . ek hata diya, shunya . . . (indistinct) . . . (. . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is being removed from the Gita . . . (indistinct) . . . one is removed, only zero . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Prabhupāda: Yehi ho raha hai. Shunya leke khao. Yehi to hai. Aur idhar kaam ho raha hai, shunya ko nikal diya gaya hai, keval Krishna reh gaya hai. Ek ko jod diya. Jitna shunya hai usko sab nikal diya gaya. Dharma projjhita kaitavo atra. Bhagavan ko chodh karke jitna dharma nam se chalta hai na, usko kaitava dharma bataya hai. Cheating, cheating. Aur iska . . . (indistinct) . . . (break). Dharma projjhita kaitava, kaitava dharma ka ye moksha vancha jo hai, mai mukta ho jayenge aur Bhagavan se ek ho jayenge, ye bhi nirasta ho gaya. Yehi bhakti hai. Jnana karmadya anavritam. Jnana aur karma se koi usme . . . shuddha bhakta. Jnana karmadya anavritam anukulyena krishnanushilanam. Keval anukul bhava se Krishnanushilanam. (indistinct) . . . aur Narada Bhakti-sutra me ki anyabhilashita sunyam . . . sarvopadhi vinirmuktam. Sab upadhi se mukt. Ye bhi ek upadhi hai. Mai sannyasa liya , mai brahmana hai. Ye bhi upadhi hai. Mai Parsi hai, mai Hindu hai, mai Christian hai. Keval upadhi hai. To sarvopadhi vinirmuktam, jab sab upadhi se mukt ho gaya, tat paratvena nirmalam, keval bhagavat bhava se . . . us samay jo apko paristhiti hai hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate. Is samay jo apka shuddha indriya hai, wo indriyo se indriya-adhipati Hrishikesha, unki jo seva hai uski nam hai bhakti. Jab tak ye upadhi hai mai ye family member hai, mai isko humara responsibility hai, ye hai wo hai . . . (Yes, this is happening. Take the zero and eat it. Here, all the zeroes have been removed and only Kṛṣṇa is remaining. The one has been added. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ atra (SB 1.1.2). Except the Supreme Lord, all other religions have been rejected as cheating religion. The desire for liberation and becoming one with the Supreme has also been defeated. This is bhakti. Jnana karmadya anavritam. It is pure devotion. Jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167). With a favourable attitude, one should serve Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct) . . . in Narada Bhakti-sutra it is said sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, free from all designations. This is also a designation. I am a sannyasi, I am a brahmana. I am a Parsi, I am Hindu, I am Christian. These are only designations. So sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, when you are free from all designations, then tat-paratvena nirmalam, only devotion to the Lord . . . your condition at that time is hṛṣīkena hṛṣīkeśa sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). At that time, your purified senses engage in the service to of Hṛṣīkeśa or the Lord of the senses and this is called bhakti. As long as all these designations remain, I am a member of this family, I have this responsibility . . .)

Guest (9): It is very difficult to give up.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is difficult, but there is way.

Guest (9): There is some ceremony for that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is upādhi. Jab Europe America me Bhagavad bhakti prachar karne giya, agar mai upadhi-yukta wo Hindu dharma prachar karne chaha, toye success nahi hota. Wo to upadhi yukta hai. (When I went to preach in Europe and America, I would not have achieved so much success if I had propagated the Hindu designation.). I identify myself as Hindu. Yes. Then they would not have not accepted. They would have said, "We have got Christianity. Why should I accept your Hinduism?" . . . (indistinct)

Guest (9): This sort of distinction was not also clear to us, but now, after hearing you this morning . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (9): . . . and your ceremony . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, if you go anywhere, if you want to preach Hinduism, why they should be interested in Hinduism? They can hear some words. But we are not talking of Hinduism and Muhammadanism, we are talking on the science of God.

Guest (9): The true philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is God? What is the conception of God? Oh, they have accepted there, "Yes, here it is right conception." Yes.

Guest (9): Go back to Godhead.

Prabhupāda: Back to Godhead.

Guest (9): Go back to Godhead. I distributed what I got.

Prabhupāda: No, I shall arrange to distribute. I am getting fifty thousand Back to Godheads. Fifty thousand. I shall distribute . . . (indistinct)

(break) (indistinct) . . . we haven't got to present Kṛṣṇa as Indian as Hindu. Kṛṣṇa is neither of them. Kṛṣṇa says, claims, that "Every living entity is My part and parcel. I am the seed-giving father." So therefore it has become successful. I never said that, "You become a Hindu." "You accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy." What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God. Oh, that we have been confident.

Guest (9): They are accepting God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Aur humara idhar me Krishna ko kyu khali God manenge. (And here people's idea is why should we obey Kṛṣṇa as God.) Even if they are puzzled. Although Kṛṣṇa appeared in India.

Guest (9): We don't think that He belongs to particular place or . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's . . . they do not understand Kṛṣṇa. Krishna to koi . . . isko bhi jawab diya hai Bhagavan ne avajananti mam mudha - rascal, gadha. Wo samajhta Krishna to koi admi hai, koi manushya hai. So isko upadhi diya hai na mudha. Mudha mane gadha. Gadha Krishna ko kaise samjhega? Krishna ko samajhne ke liye to anek yoga sadhana chahiye. Yatatam api siddhanam. Jo siddhi labh kiye, wo to Krishna samjhega. Isko bohot janma lagta hai. Bahunam janmanam ante. Baki aisa agar murkha ban gaya . . . (indistinct) . . . humko itna bahu janma ka apeksha karne ka kya zarurat hai. Yadi bahunam janme Krishna me hi ana hai, to abhi na Krishna ko hum pakad le. Manushya kaam siddha ho jayega. (Kṛṣṇa has replied to this question by saying avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11). They think Kṛṣṇa to be some ordinary human being. Therefore he gives this designation mūḍhā. Mūḍhā means donkey. How can a donkey understand Kṛṣṇa? To understand Kṛṣṇa, a lot of yoga and practice is required. Yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3). Only the perfected beings can understand Kṛṣṇa. It takes many years. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante (BG 7.19). Why should we wait for so many lifetimes? If we have to ultimately attain Kṛṣṇa after many births, then why not catch him now. Human life will become perfected.) Why step by step? If you have to accept Kṛṣṇa, why not immediately? That is intelligence.

Guest (9): But you should be . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question of "Should be." When Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you protection," why "Should be"? You don't believe in Kṛṣṇa. He says, ahaṁ tvaṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣa (BG 18.66). You are doubtful about Kṛṣṇa's capacity. That means you do not know Kṛṣṇa. Yes.

Guest (9): But in a part of the one be . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guest (9): But in a part of one form . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Guest (2): He means that is beyond his capacity to understand Him.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa says: "I am everything." Why don't you accept Him? That means you want to understand Kṛṣṇa in your own way. Why you are becoming intentionally unable?

Guest (9): No, believe Him as you are a servant and serve Him. Or you believe that you are mother to Him. Or you believe that you are . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, that is second. First of all surrender. Then what way you shall surrender, that is different thing, another stage, more confidential. First of all there is surrender. First of all you enter this house or this room. Then you ask, "How can I serve you?" That is different. First of all there is no surrender, or without surrender, full surrender, there is no entrance in Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (9): No entry.

Prabhupāda: No entry. Because those who revolted against Kṛṣṇa, those who wanted to become Kṛṣṇa by imitating Him, they are here in this material world. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27).

(indistinct) . . . Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19), creation, that all the living entities who have come into this created world, they have revolted. They wanted to become Kṛṣṇa, to imitate Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they have given the chance, "All right, you become Kṛṣṇa. You do whatever you like. I will give you facility. You want to become Brahmā? All right, you become Brahmā. And you want to become the worm of stool? I will give you the facility."

So these living entities are rotating. Sometimes he is becoming Brahmā, sometimes becoming the worm of a stool, sometimes this, sometimes that. In this way he is changing body. This is material world. Or when he comes back again, back to Godhead, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Then you'll haven't got to come back. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).

So we have to prepare for that position, how to go back to home, how to go back to Kṛṣṇa, and engage ourself in His service. Then the question of either as mother or friend or . . . that will be considered later on. First of all let us try how to enter kingdom of God. That is condition, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66) that, "You surrender unto Me fully, giving up all your other engagement. Then I take charge of you." Ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi. Mokṣa is there. For a kṛṣṇa-bhakta is nothing, mokṣa, or liberation. He'll do it. He'll look after it.

Guest (9): Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: Ready? All right. (end)