760504 - Conversation - Honolulu

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760504R1-HONOLULU - May 04, 1976 - 46:57 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . just on the Sunday easily. Charge them . . . you know, like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar a . . .

Prabhupāda: The loan will be clear very soon.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. They have a . . . they are very expert at financing now, these . . . the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easily.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) He is the right person.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also, they have not advertised that, but every day at least about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average of about $2.50.

Prabhupāda: That's cheap.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All you can eat for two dollars . . .

Prabhupāda: And for public it is very cheap.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people that will come. It's such a central location.

Prabhupāda: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say: "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vṛndāvana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's . . . people are coming by thousands.

Gurukṛpā: Yes. Same here.

Prabhupāda: I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarāma is so powerful, He's bringing, "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was . . . what is that? Plowing? Yamunā was threatened.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant—businessmen, like that.

Prabhupāda: And there is book display?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display.

Prabhupāda: They are purchasing book also?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead, complimentary copy . . .

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you are adding two more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudviṣa Mahārāja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten . . . (aside) I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarīṣa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant, with waiters, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow.

Gurukṛpā: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura-Govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it.

Prabhupāda: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosā, kachorī preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Kṛṣṇa conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as . . . some of the persons belonging to it are the . . . just like the chairman of Coca-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice-president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice-president, First National City Bank vice-president, all of these men.

Prabhupāda: So you can contract with all big, big men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And he's the president of the council.

Prabhupāda: His father?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then he is very influential man.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very. So he immediately got . . .

Prabhupāda: So you should be like father, like son.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him.

Prabhupāda: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bāpakā beṭā sepāikā ghoḍā, kucha nehi to thoḍā thoḍā means, "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some; must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepāikā ghoḍā. It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the . . . your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: For Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Kṛṣṇa conscious. Bās. Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern . . . see, his father . . . the company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas.

Prabhupāda: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line—they are all intelligent men—they'll get ideas, what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not . . . they may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: And their sons will also read it.

Prabhupāda: Their sons also will read.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too.

Prabhupāda: Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ, lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You . . . both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that, "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father has been giving us . . . of course, it was . . . we have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhṛṣṭadyumna . . . like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that . . . he is encouraging him also because he's taking some . . . what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is, after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this. We read about twenty-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China. It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history . . .

Prabhupāda: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they . . . their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially, and they . . . we have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got . . . we wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China. We read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable, expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution.

Prabhupāda: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. That no one . . . there should be no . . .

Prabhupāda: In that case, they should, if they have got sense . . . just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the . . .

Prabhupāda: Materialism means capitalism.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine.

Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure.

Prabhupāda: And similarly, they will have to condemn.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's our conclusion.

Prabhupāda: If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not . . .

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse-tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not . . . or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. And they are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Artificial, though.

Prabhupāda: So that is artificial way of. Unless one is prepared to . . . just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We agree. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also agree it's a failure.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is bound to fail.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything . . . just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is . . . even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally, himself, he is hiding. Why this defect?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, system . . . if the . . . you cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that that will be corrected by education.

Prabhupāda: Education . . . that means what is that education?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the . . . they don't . . . of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body . . . you can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one works, immediately the plane becomes . . . it is . . . so you must know where to touch. If I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down, immediately "ohn-ohn-ohn," finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you . . . just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is . . . and they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied.

Prabhupāda: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point—that is natural—where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us, you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment . . . there are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point that, "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way . . . nature's way is, "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say that you can become above nature.

Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That will make them failure.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail.

Prabhupāda: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure, "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: No, that is the foolishness. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mūḍha.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda, another problem . . .

Prabhupāda: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say: "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought."

Prabhupāda: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) It can't be done.

Prabhupāda: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of . . . the laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that, "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above . . . this, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassing. That is following little properly. "Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that?" Ask them. We know that.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it was . . . the Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from . . . everyone was coming. So now argument that, "If you are . . . you are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't do it.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No one can do it.

Prabhupāda: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all . . .

Prabhupāda: This is not philosophy.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Yes. This is science.

Prabhupāda: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature.

Prabhupāda: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical . . . they were very . . . for instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius . . . up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God.

Prabhupāda: That is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmin community—they called them scholars—who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became . . .

Prabhupāda: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise, why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same system. You . . . your . . . what is your rascal's name?

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Mao Tse-tung.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mao. Mao.

Prabhupāda: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But these classes must remain there—the teacher class and the student class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers . . . this is one of their programs. Actually, we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years.

Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say everyone should be teachers.

Prabhupāda: That "Should be" means not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they are making everyone teachers.

Prabhupāda: And this "making" means not.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are trying to make.

Prabhupāda: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "trying," "making," means two.

Hari-śauri: It's artificial.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like they let the students teach the teachers.

Prabhupāda: That's right. So the teachers . . . sometimes you become teacher, sometimes I become teacher. What is this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior-inferior.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Classless society.

Prabhupāda: They are taking themselves the superior position to make equal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like some of the rascal svāmīs come here that "There is no teacher of . . . no require teacher, no need of books."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why do we need them?

Prabhupāda: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That happened. One svāmī said: "Now you . . . meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said: "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said: "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?"

Prabhupāda: So what was his reply?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply. So they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, we did a report telling . . . we wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Kṛṣṇa consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay, you want to read it, Dhṛṣṭadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future of our Soc . . . this report is based on a lot of research. Read. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report. I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a . . . the Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Balloons.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there.

Prabhupāda: That is also nonsense.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's nonsense, but I mean the point is how difficult it is. We have . . .

Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not . . . that is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that, "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals, which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die.

Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high-class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside to Dhṛṣṭadyumna) Do you think your father would give letters of introduction . . .?

Prabhupāda: And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this.

Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī . . . Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and . . .

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka.

Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably.

Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men.

Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not only difficult, it's impossible.

Prabhupāda: Then don't waste time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Completely impossible.

Prabhupāda: Give up this idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It may be possible in fifty years from now, but not now.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, we were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole.

Prabhupāda: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said: "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said: "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said: "You've come up against the Great Wall." He says: "You'll never cross it."

Prabhupāda: No, they'll be . . . nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish . . . they are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become . . . violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force, that is futile. Is it possible that, "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says: "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life."

Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the flooding of the river.

Prabhupāda: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisā, it has cost me one paisā. I shall make one paisā profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he . . . what was . . . one pot was there; he kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination . . . "I shall become so great that I shall kick Kṛṣṇa's law," and whatever pot he had, broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that, "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply.

So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya dūrāt caitanya-candra-caraṇe (Caitanya-candrāmṛta). "Oh, you are so nice; therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bās. This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited.

So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. The books will sell, that "You are rascal number one, you set aside whatever you learned. Read this." He sādhavaḥ sakalam eva vihāya: "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate: "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice seating. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkhaḥ. By their . . . these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountains with head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dviṣat. They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. (break) . . . their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going . . . I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here—it was impossible—we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's one import . . .

Prabhupāda: So let him, one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And it's not even done personally. You do it through the mail. They don't . . . it's not a question of going and personally showing the books.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then don't send.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These are waste . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't waste time and money. It is not possible. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't require . . . you can't influence a per . . . they don't have the power. A university does not have the power to buy the books.

Prabhupāda: Then you do that. Don't do which is impossible. No, don't try for it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And China is ten times more closed than Russia.

Prabhupāda: No, then stop this policy. Ask Gopāla not to go there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He can get the books in Russia . . .

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Through the mail

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . through the mail just as sucessfully as by going personally.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And that's nice. Try for that. (end)