740316 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740316R2-VRNDAVAN - March 16, 1974 - 20:43 Minutes

Prabhupāda: They're Australian. (Hindi conversation with another guest about Lakṣmī's position in relation to Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs) (break)

Gurudāsa: Like Lord Caitanya, you have also showed him the right way.

Prabhupāda: He is there on the line.

Gurudāsa: What was the discussion about Lakṣmī?

Prabhupāda: He says that Lakṣmī had no entrance in Vṛndāvana. So I said that in Brahmā-saṁhitā it says lakṣmī-sahasra (Bs. 5.29), so what is . . . what are these Lakṣmīs? So gopīs are also Lakṣmīs. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Lakṣmī. Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, therefore His . . . these girlfriends, they are also Lakṣmīs. Without Him, Lakṣmī, how she can associate with Kṛṣṇa? Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitabhis (Bs. 5.37). (break)

Harikeśa: . . . communication, the only way of talking to the spiritual master to communicate is verbal talking, the only way in which one can communicate with his spiritual master.

Prabhupāda: No, there are more . . . (break) . . . discussions with spiritual master, that is actually following.

Devotee: Hmm. (break)

Harikeśa: . . . which I've always been afraid to ask, because I don't know if it's proper, but you being the external manifestation of Supersoul, if we are having questions, doubts, when, in your absence, if we are receiving indications, is there any possible way that someone who is so conditioned can have any understanding of proper action in your absence? In other words, if I am in your absence and I am in great doubt, and I am praying to Supersoul to please save me somehow, if I receive some action which I must do, or some course of action becomes obvious, should I trust that, considering that you're communicating with me, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: That depends on purity. If one has become pure, without any material desire, then that is possible. But if there is some material desire, we cannot expect direct communication.

Harikeśa: So I have much material desire.

Prabhupāda: I do not say you or he. This is the process. This is the process.

Harikeśa: What in the meantime . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: . . . until we have reached the pure state . . .

Prabhupāda: In the meantime it is not possible . . .

Harikeśa: Not possible.

Prabhupāda: . . . directly.

Harikeśa: So we must communicate with you verbally or through letters.

Prabhupāda: Not with spiritual master here. You cannot concoct, "Now I am getting directly." No.

Harikeśa: So the nature of the communication with the spiritual master in our state is only through . . .

Prabhupāda: Spiritual master . . . Kṛṣṇa is also spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa sends spiritual master, His representative, as you can appreciate, externally, directly. Otherwise, Kṛṣṇa is already spiritual master. He could give you instruction from the very beginning. But why He is sending His representative? What is the use?

Harikeśa: We're not able to . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah. Because unless we are completely purified, Kṛṣṇa will . . . does not talk directly. Therefore you have to understand Kṛṣṇa through the spiritual master.

Harikeśa: So when we are having doubts, the only possible way, no matter what the indications are, are simply follow your instructions in all circumstances.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: Right. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa wanted the instruction of guru, not directly.

Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa's . . .

Prabhupāda: That, that I was explaining in the morning.

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitya-guru. One has to take the order of Kṛṣṇa through the media, via media, of spiritual master.

Harikeśa: So all of my activities, unless they are directly following your order, are more or less a concoction of my mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) . . . office, you cannot contact the proprietor directly. There are subordinate officers. Through them you have to take the proprietor's help. The office master is there. You have to satisfy the office master. You cannot directly approach the proprietor. If you satisfy the office master, then your promotion and other things is all right. But if you want to . . . I have got practical experience. One of my friend, he was working in office. So the proprietor was there, and many other employees were there. So that my friend, he suggested something to the proprietor, and the proprietor immediately dismissed him, "Oh, this man want to suggest me? Dismiss immediately. Give him his pay, he will go away." In that I have got practical experience. He later on became so sorry. So, now it is the process. So this is practical. We should not try to approach directly Kṛṣṇa. That is not good idea. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80): "I am the servant of the servant of." So you have to serve your immediate master, dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ, servant of the Supreme Lord. If you want to jump over the original master, that is not good. Then you will be dismissed like, like my friend.

Harikeśa: Associating with you is so wonderful, and yet . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like here in Vṛndāvana, I was here, as I am sitting here. I was sitting here in this very place. That was . . . (indistinct) . . . and when I was hungry I could take my food there, same thing. So that is one thing. Just like there are many persons, but because my spiritual master wanted, so I, at seventy years old, when I thought, "Now I shall go," I went, to serve the order of my spiritual master. Otherwise, I am sitting here in Vṛndāvana. I am old man, I was chanting. Therefore, because that is my first business.

Harikeśa: Were you just waiting to finish your books?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just creating the situation how I shall serve my spiritual master.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Not that I was trying to directly contact Kṛṣṇa. That was not my business. This is required. If anyone wants to contact directly Kṛṣṇa, that is not possible. (break)

Gurudāsa: If there is a . . . devotees who are not yet purified, if the devotee is not yet purified, why is the temple president a representative of you? If we are not at the purified stage, then why is the temple president a representative of yourself?

Prabhupāda: To carry his order. That is purification. If you create your own atmosphere, then you become impure. If you simply carry out the order of your spiritual master, then they will be purified. If you do your own business, that is not good. You cannot do anything which is not ordered by your spiritual master. Of course, everyone should have sense. It is not that we are dull, stone—unless it is moved, it cannot . . . if you have got moving power. But the basic issue should be to carry out the orders of his spiritual master. That is your president. Otherwise you are not.

Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience of someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: Sometimes we have the experience, someone in authority who is obviously not following your instructions.

Prabhupāda: That you have not to judge.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: You are not to judge. You should be . . . you should know that this man is appointed, as a representative of my spiritual master. I must follow. You cannot judge him.

Harikeśa: Oh.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is not your business, to judge.

Harikeśa: Then we simply wait for further instructions from you and keep . . .

Prabhupāda: No further instructions.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: So long he is president, you must follow him. If he is wrong, that will be corrected by the spiritual master.

Harikeśa: I see.

Prabhupāda: You cannot correct him. Otherwise, obedience is the first discipline. If you do not obey the representative, authority, then there cannot be any discipline. Then everything will be topsy-turvy.

Harikeśa: You would rather have us follow the temple president . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Harikeśa: . . . than to . . .

Prabhupāda: If he is wrong, that cannot . . . e will come out.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: So the steps will be taken by the spiritual master. You cannot . . . do not try to rectify.

Harikeśa: Our advancement is the same?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Our advancement . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: . . . is going on.

Prabhupāda: You follow, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2), gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80), servant of the servants of the servant of . . . then this is our position.

Gurudāsa: That's the consideration. Advancement is . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Harikeśa: I know I am making mistakes.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you preach?

Harikeśa: That's my question.

Prabhupāda: Stop preaching.

Harikeśa: Ah.

Prabhupāda: If you know your mistakes, and you're preaching, why this nonsense preaching?

Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. That's it . . . we are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that, "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi (CC Adi 7.71). He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one that, "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing, I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you . . . (indistinct) . . . five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paisa even, and I deliver it, so that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver that amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection.

Harikeśa: Sometimes, due to my conditioning, I cannot exactly understand what you are saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you cannot understand what I am saying, then you should ask repeat. Try to understand . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "I cannot understand this, and explain." Put it to the immediate president or any Godbrother. If he still, if he cannot explain, if he feels unable, he can inquire to me. In this way.

Harikeśa: What if I don't know I haven't understood? What if I think I have understood but I have actually not?

Prabhupāda: There are many things like that. You should try to understand it fully. Why should you understand it haphazardly? You must try to understand fully. (break)

Harikeśa: . . . position to criticize his Godbrothers, no matter what?

Prabhupāda: You can criticize if you are right. You cannot criticize wrongly. (break)

Harikeśa: . . . instructions rather than our sense gratification? (break)

Prabhupāda: It is not right that he says that. Sense gratification is wrong. You cannot gratify your senses. You have to employ your senses in the service of the Lord. That is perfection. Hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate (CC Madhya 19.170). That is our only business. (break)

Devotee lady: Thank you. I'm leaving. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . hot.

Devotee lady: Yes. I'm just going to make very hot. (break)

Harikeśa: . . . to increase as we become more and more pure?

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got that intelligence. Everyone has got that intelligence, to understand and . . . (break) (end)