750930 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

750930MW-BOMBAY - September 30, 1975 - 38:15 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Jaya. You are growing this flowers?

Śaṅka: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Many?

Śaṅka: Many, Śrīla Prabhupāda

Prabhupāda: That's nice. It is very nice flower.

Śaṅka: Also campaka trees, many campaka trees, down here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. Grow such flowers. (break)

Harikeśa: (whispers) Got an umbrella?

Prabhupāda: What are these trees?

Harikeśa: (whispers) We should bring an umbrella.

Prabhupāda: These . . . (break) There is no understanding? (break)

Dr. Patel: Japan also.

Prabhupāda: Japan also. Well, everyone is against us.

Dr. Patel: No, these boys who are recruited newly, they don't have much about the idea of Vaiṣṇavism. That is the . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's a fact. But what can I do? They are my helper.

Dr. Patel: They have to be trained up earlier and then let loose. Otherwise, you know, they create it. Because all the bad impressions are for them.

Prabhupāda: No. They'll be trained while working. Not that simply theorizing at home. No.

Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think . . .

Prabhupāda: They should work, and at the same time, they may fall down, just like a child tries to walk, falls down, again walks, again . . . then he becomes complete.

Dr. Patel: Those thirty, I mean, characteristics of a sādhu that are depicted in the, in Bhāgavata . . .

Prabhupāda: That is not possible in one day.

Dr. Patel: Thirty cannot come, but a few should come.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Few that . . . they are . . . yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). If they have got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is all qualification.

Dr. Patel: That is a fact.

Prabhupāda: That is all qualification. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇaiḥ. All these qualities are already there.

Dr. Patel: But for that, you see, he has to withdraw his mind and all the senses from . . .

Prabhupāda: Even he does not withdraw, even it is sudurācāra, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva saḥ (BG 9.30).

Dr. Patel: But then bhajate mām ananya-bhāk.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ananya-bhāk, they are doing that.

Dr. Patel: Without severing his mind, anywhere he goes . . .

Prabhupāda: No. They are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is a fact. That is a fact. You cannot bribe them to take from this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. They may commit some mistake, but they are fixed up in Kṛṣṇa. That is bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. You cannot deviate them. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). So this qualification they have, and for this qualification they will be triumphant, without anything else. (aside) We shall return now?

Dr. Patel: Those thirty qualifications do come naturally, as you say, but they come slowly. But "Arya basu" we must teach them this in the kṛṣṇa-bhakti, the qualities of a real sādhu.

Prabhupāda: If you make a condition that "First of all you become qualified; then you preach," that will never come. Rūpa Gosvāmī therefore recommends, yena tena prakāreṇa manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.4), that "Somehow or other bring him to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Then other . . . sarve vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. Automatically they'll come as servant. First of all let their mind be fixed up on Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Dr. Patel: But the present difficulties are because they don't know the vidhi-niṣedhas.

Prabhupāda: So how they can know?

Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: How they can know?

Dr. Patel: That is the difficulty.

Prabhupāda: So we . . . we are bringing them from which status? Yes. You cannot expect that they will be perfect all of a sudden, overnight. It is not possible. But their mind being fixed up on Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is the first qualification. They do not know anything beyond Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (pause)

Dr. Patel: In our Vaiṣṇava religions this vidhi-niṣedha is a must, right from the beginning.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is must. It is must. But you cannot force in the beginning. That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: But they have to be explained of it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if they fix up their mind in Kṛṣṇa, the vidhi-niṣedha automatically will come. That process I adopted. When they came to me I never said that, "You don't do this, don't do that, don't do that." No. "You simply come here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." These are . . . old students learned. I never said that "You have to follow these rules, these regulation, then you can come . . ." Because if chanting is properly done, then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12)—the mind will be cleansed of all dirty things. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇa puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). Simply by hearing and chanting, they will be pious. Hṛdy antaḥ 'stho hy abhadrāṇi vidhunoti suhṛt satām. Kṛṣṇa is there. As soon as He sees one devotee is sincerely chanting, He'll help, cleansing the heart. Vidhunoti . . . you will read Ajāmila upākhyāna. Simply by chanting "Nārāyaṇa . . ."

Dr. Patel: Ajāmila got it.

Prabhupāda: Offenseless.

Dr. Patel: All psychological matters, and in the bhakti-mārga, it is the sūkṣma-śarīra which is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Eh.

Dr. Patel: The behavior of the sūkṣma-śarīra is more important than the sthūla.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is . . . the example is given that Ganges water, even it is superficially . . . there are floating stool and foams . . .

Dr. Patel: Dead bodies also.

Prabhupāda: So this stool and foam does not pollute the Ganges water. You set it aside and take your dip. That example is given that. External feature does not pollute the soul. Asaṅgo 'ya hi puruṣaḥ. The puruṣa . . . it is simply our abhiniveṣa. Abhiniveṣa is dangerous. Otherwise, the soul has nothing to do with this body.

Dr. Patel: That's right. No, soul is separate from all the three bodies.

Prabhupāda: Exactly like that—one is on the motorcar. He has nothing to do with the motorcar, but if he thinks, "My car is life. Everything my . . ."

Dr. Patel: Air is coming into . . .

Prabhupāda: That abhiniveṣa gives him trouble. So this abhiniveṣa can be removed by increasing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is increased by following the regulative duties: rise early in the morning, have maṅgala ārati, this, that, up to ten o'clock. Means vidhi.

Dr. Patel: That is religious vidhi.

Prabhupāda: So by vidhi, he becomes practiced, and . . .

Dr. Patel: That becomes a nature then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then it is nature.

Dr. Patel: And finally it gives you sākṣād-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: All that thing . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They are . . . the vidhi-niṣedha, if you give up vidhi-niṣedha, then you cannot improve.

Dr. Patel: No, the vidhi-niṣedha is a must. Otherwise you are a daitya sort of a thing, even though you may be practicing anything.

Prabhupāda: So that they are doing. They are following the regulative principles: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating. This is vidhi-niṣedha.

Dr. Patel: I quite understand, sir. But the most important, the climax of the whole thing, is that you see the presence of God everywhere, which is very difficult in the beginning, I understand. But they should be informed that, "This is our aim, that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, and we have a darśana of Kṛṣṇa everywhere." Then and then he would not spite another man.

Prabhupāda: That they know. This is preliminary, that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Not like . . . not like the Ārya-samājīs: "Kṛṣṇa is everywhere except in the temple."

Dr. Patel: (laughs) You have to create a temple within you, then seat Kṛṣṇa there.

Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, their proposition is, "Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but not in this temple. Don't go to the temple." That is their proposition.

Dr. Patel: They have theorized that just to oppose Islam. I don't think they meant much about it.

Prabhupāda: What they have done? Simply hallucination.

Dr. Patel: They believe more in the Vedic scriptures and Vedic injunctions than other things.

Prabhupāda: And all the ācāryas, they are fools.

Dr. Patel: No, no.

Prabhupāda: Then they have meant that . . .

Dr. Patel: They don't believe in these Purāṇas. That is a misfortune for them.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why?

Dr. Patel: That is a misfortune.

Prabhupāda: Not only that. They write Satya-artha-prakāśa. That means they have understood the real meaning, and all the ācāryas, they are fools. That is their intelligence, satya-artha-prakāśa, that so long there was no satyārtha; now they have invented satyārtha. This is their intelligence.

Dr. Patel: So Vaiṣṇava ācāryas have actually . . . I mean, through bhakti people realize the presence of God everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, no. In comparison to Vaiṣṇava ācāryas . . . apart from the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, they have done nothing even like me, what to speak of the ācāryas. I am only a servant and a servant of the ācāryas. They could not do anything. They admit. Real ārya-samājīs, they admit that, that "What was our program, you have executed."

Dr. Patel: In Punjab there was lot of Muslim hierarchy, and that is what they wanted, that . . . ārya-samājī.

Prabhupāda: But we are not against any "ism," either Muslimism or Christianism. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we never preach against anyone.

Dr. Patel: It was a socio-economic problem or socio-political, not a religious problem.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but we never criticize anyone. When the Christians come forward—"Whether our Christian religion can also give the same meaning?"—"Yes, why not?" Yes.

Dr. Patel: It has the same bhakti.

Prabhupāda: I never said . . .

Dr. Patel: But I think the Christianity is nothing but bhāgavata-dharma. It has been preached in a different way.

Prabhupāda: They inquire, "What is your opinion of Jesus Christ?" And "He is our guru."

Dr. Patel: It's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I mean, that is what it is, in fact.

Prabhupāda: We do not . . .

Dr. Patel: The Christians don't know that we take it like that.

Prabhupāda: Even if we say: "Muhammad," why not? Anyone who has preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness—may be little differently according to time, circumstances—but anyone who has tried to preach the God consciousness, he is guru. Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettā, sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's version. Anyone who preaches about the Supreme Lord, he is guru. May be in a different way, according to time, circumstances. The Muhammad also said Allahu akbar.

Dr. Patel: Only the difference is that Muhammad is trying to worship nirañjana, nirākāra, and we . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, not nirākāra. That is not . . .

Dr. Patel: Even Christianity considers His ākāra—"God has form."

Prabhupāda: No, Muhammadan also has got . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued in Koran. He proved there is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. He proved with the Pathans. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise the Christianity is just our way, I mean, absolutely Vaisnavism. It has been wrongly preached and wrongly initiated in India. That is why it has fallen to disrepute. Otherwise Christianity is just vaiṣṇava-dharma. Nothing else, to my mind, the way I have studied, I mean the New Testament and all the Christian, all the things. Now, the sermon of Christ is nothing but the preaching of Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: I never criticized. I simply said that positive side, God consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness totally.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Christ himself was drunk with God consciousness in toto, absolute. There cannot be a higher bhakta than that. It is said that Jesus Christ learned all these things in India. It might be a fact.

Passerby: (chanting ślokas)

Dr. Patel: And he, daily bhakta. He came for pūjā, for guru. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . devatā bhaktāḥ, te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-purvakam (BG 9.23). They give examples as the gopīs worshiped Kātyāyanī. But that is not avidhi. They went to Kātyāyanī for getting the favor of Kṛṣṇa. They prayed to mother Kātyāyanī, "Please be favorable to us so that Kṛṣṇa may be pleased upon us." Others go to beg from Kātyāyanī some material benefits, but the gopīs, they did not ask for any material benefit. And therefore that is vidhi.

Dr. Patel: Gopīs . . . those who worship Kṛṣṇa with sort of a sexual intention, but they became beyond the, I mean, guṇas, nirguṇa. Ho gaye (became . . .) because Kṛṣṇa was nirguṇa. That is the thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They became purified. That is simply so they are purified. So . . .

Dr. Patel: Then, in ordinary social conditions also, when you have a friend, you become a great lover, certain characteristics come through.

Prabhupāda: Any condition, if you come to Kṛṣṇa, then you become purified.

Dr. Patel: I know. But what I mean to say, when you have conditioned yourself with Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's guṇas will come to you, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . nirguṇa, nirguṇatvam, beyond the three guṇas of māyā.

Prabhupāda: There is a verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, etad īśanam īśasya (SB 1.11.38). This is the, what is called, īśanam, means controlling power of Kṛṣṇa, that when He comes in this material world, He is not infected.

Dr. Patel: That is all the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas teaching.

Prabhupāda: That is īśanam.

Dr. Patel: Even though we see Him as an ordinary physical body or a human body, but that is divya body, and it is not contaminated by any guṇas.

Prabhupāda: And because it is not contaminated, therefore it is not ordinary body. Therefore anyone who thinks of Kṛṣṇa as possessing ordinary body, he is described as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). In the ordinary human, this material body, nobody can be controller of the laws of nature. That is not possible. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Unless one has got spiritual body, it is not possible to be unaffected by this material world. Kṛṣṇa never became old, although He lived for 125 years. He never became old. Now, how you can say . . .?

Dr. Patel: He was the controller of māyā, but we are being controlled by the māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, no, anyway, a 125-years-old and looking like a young man of twenty years old, how it is possible in a material body?

Dr. Patel: So all the avatāras of God, they come with a controlling . . .

Prabhupāda: Ātma-māyā.

Dr. Patel: Controlling.

Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā (BG 4.6). They do not come under the control of this mahāmāyā. They have got their own spiritual potency. Āhlādinī-śakti. Ātmanaṁ sṛjāmy aham. Ātmanam: "Myself, I advent." How it can be like ordinary man? We are . . . karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). We get body. But He says . . .

Dr. Patel: And it is by His own free will.

Prabhupāda: Yes, as He likes. He likes to appear as fish, that's all. Not that . . . ordinary fish, it is forced to take the body of a fish.

Dr. Patel: We are controlled by māyā and its actions . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . and take this body for the fulfillment of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: He takes the body to fulfill His mission.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way. That is a real understanding of Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. As soon as the Māyāvādī thinks that Kṛṣṇa also accepts a material body . . . therefore they are called Māyāvādī. They are called Māyāvādī because they think Kṛṣṇa's body is also māyā. Therefore they are known as Māyāvādīs.

Dr. Patel: He takes birth in divya-vigraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Their story is, "As soon as there is form, it is māyā." They cannot think beyond that in their own terms. Because we have got this form, material body, so their generalization is, "As soon as Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, anyone, if He takes this form, then it is material." That is called māyā.

Dr. Patel: But He takes the form with the control over māyā. We take the form under control of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the controller of māyā. That they do not understand.

Dr. Patel: They don't understand what is divya-vigraha.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They understand slightly sac-cid-ānanda, but they cannot think of that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Śāstra says, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). That they cannot understand, being less intelligent. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, they cannot understand this. Māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇa aparādhī.

Dr. Patel: They are aparādhīs of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They, the Māyāvādīs, they are offender to Kṛṣṇa; therefore they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). In other places it is said, aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is still unclean. Vimukta-māninaḥ. They are thinking that they have become liberated, māninaḥ, imposition, but actually aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Their intelligence is not yet clear.

Dr. Patel: Clouded, cloudy.

Prabhupāda: Clouded, yes. Aviśuddha. Therefore Kṛṣṇa confirms this. Because the aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ, it takes many, many lives to purify it. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). When they come to the purified stage, then they surrender: vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabha. They continue to be aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ unless they come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. And we are unintelligent persons—we do it immediately. Let us do it immediately. Why we shall wait for many, many births?

Dr. Patel: It is not that, sir. I think complete surrendering of our ego at the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and they cannot.

Dr. Patel: That is bhakti.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but they cannot do it.

Dr. Patel: Because they are egoistic toward the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only that. They think they are very intelligent, overintelligent. They do not take advice of Kṛṣṇa even. They are so intelligent that Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti, and still they will stick to their jñāna, yoga, karma. Kṛṣṇa clearly says that, "You cannot understand Me by this process." Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi (BG 18.55): "If you want to know Me in truth, then bhakti. Nothing else." And still, they will stick to those.

Dr. Patel: No, but I think they have not understood even Śaṅkarācārya. Śaṅkarācārya has composed stotras on Viṣṇu and . . . Bhaja govindam, bhaja govinda, govindaṁ bhaja mūḍha-mate . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have become more than Śaṅkarācārya.

Dr. Patel: They have seen the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Just like later on, the Gandhi's disciples became more than Gandhi, more than Gandhi. That's all. Gandhi planned village organization and Jawaharlal Nehru planned industrialization. And everything failed. There is no money, and he wanted to establish industry like America.

Dr. Patel: But he did not understand economics, sir. What is money, after all? Money is nothing but the labor transformed into materials. We had the huge labor of sixty crores of people. He was not capable of transforming that labor into material, unfortunately, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway, they changed the Gandhi's program.

Dr. Patel: That is what Gandhi understood, but he did not.

Prabhupāda: How he can understand? He wanted to utilize to become prime minister.

Dr. Patel: Internationally that happened.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Now the village program of Gandhi is lost.

Dr. Patel: Absolutely. But whatever he has got, he had a lot of vidhi-niṣedha . . .

Prabhupāda: And it is lost because it was not God-centered. It is lost.

Dr. Patel: But he was God conscious. I mean, I have been brought up in that camp. Gandhi was a saint. But these people could not follow him. They have not understood him well. Those people who understood him, they died out. They died out.

Prabhupāda: Now, now, Gandhi's āśrama, was there any temple for worshiping Kṛṣṇa? No.

Dr. Patel: They had a temple. My wife was brought up there in the āśrama.

Prabhupāda: There was a temple?

Dr. Patel: In the morning they had to say prayer to Deva. Gītā-mandir they had . . . (indistinct comments with another man) They had all the characteristics of a good saint.

Prabhupāda: Why not from the beginning? No, no, no. Gandhi did not believe in Kṛṣṇa. No. Yes, he has written that, "I know . . ."

Dr. Patel: Not that the way we believe, but he did believe.

Prabhupāda: No. That means he is right and we are wrong.

Dr. Patel: We may be right. We may be right. Who knows? Many ways may be right. It is not only that one way be right.

Prabhupāda: Then how we understand who is right and who is wrong?

Dr. Patel: There cannot be only one way. There are many ways.

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, no other way.

Indian man (2): Gandhi was a politician.

Dr. Patel: He was not a politician. He was more a bhakta than a politician. He fell in politics. He was a saintly man turned into a politician. He was more a saintly man than a politician. He failed in politics. I have seen it.

Prabhupāda: No, he was studied by the governor of Bengal that, "Either Gandhi is a saintly man amongst the politician or he is a politician among the saintly persons." (laughter)

Dr. Patel: These people have not been able to understand Gandhi's intentions. It is the misfortune of this country they have not been able to carry out his message. Other people are able to carry out his messages. Other people of the world are able to understand him well, but we people are fools not to understand him. No. His socio-economic condition, I mean program. His program for lifting the society . . . you are religious head. He was a sort of a, another man, but in his own spirit he was doing a good work.

Prabhupāda: Our proposition is that Bhagavad-gītā begins to distinguish the soul . . .

Dr. Patel: From the body.

Prabhupāda: And the body. But Gandhi has never said anywhere.

Dr. Patel: He was always, you know, anāsakta-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right, but . . .

Dr. Patel: He always used to, daily, twice . . .

Prabhupāda: In the beginning this is the . . . you can have any yoga, anāsakti or āsakti, but the primary instruction is one has to understand first of all this, that one is not this body. And the national movement is based on this bodily concept of life, "I am Indian."

Dr. Patel: All the national . . . all the world's on that body.

Prabhupāda: So that is the difference. First of all one has to understand that he is neither Indian nor American nor English. But if you go on pushing on national movement, where is the chance of understanding that you are not this body? Just like our movement, we never say anything national. We simply state that, "You are not this body. You are spirit soul."

Dr. Patel: Gandhiji, when he went to one first round table conference in London, and he had to confront those women, I mean the wives of the workers of the Manchester mills, he said that "We are poor." They say: "We are poor. We are suffering for the poor of India." Then he had to give this argument that, "Poors of India are much poorer than what you are." So he is trying to, I mean, take a . . .

Prabhupāda: So that is bodily concept.

Dr. Patel: But he was in politics.

Prabhupāda: Poor or rich, that is due to this body.

Dr. Patel: In politics you have got to be body conscious. Politics or war is the same thing, after all. Your sphere is much different, sir, than those people's. And we cannot compare them with you or you with them. You are a, I mean, out and out a bhakta and a saint. He was a politician.

Prabhupāda: No. I am talking about the Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Dr. Patel: All right, Bhagavad-gītā. Whatever little we understand, we preach.

Prabhupāda: . . . that the first principle of Bhagavad-gītā is to understand that, "I am not this body."

Dr. Patel: (dog barking) Hut! Hut! Gandhiji's program was to emancipate the poor, downtrodden people of India in whatever way . . . in that way, in which there is no implication of falsehood and wrong things.

Prabhupāda: No, it may not be falsehood, but . . .

Dr. Patel: It will be by the right way.

Prabhupāda: This may not be the right way.

Dr. Patel: May not be or wrong way, we do not know. But then he did. According to him, he brought and he tried, and he struggled . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, we simply study that the Bhagavad-gītā begins with this education that, "You are not this body." Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, dehi. It has nothing to do with this kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This is to be understood. The whole world requires to understand this verse; otherwise they remain go-khara.

Dr. Patel: That is right, sir. That has been explained from time immemorial, but the world does not understand.

Prabhupāda: No, no, why not? These people are understanding. These all Kṛṣṇa conscious students, they are understanding. Otherwise . . .

Dr. Patel: These type of students were eternally there with all the religious teachings, past and present. But unfortunately . . .

Prabhupāda: So those who were there, they understood. They . . .

Dr. Patel: Unfortunate for the world it is not going to do that.

Prabhupāda: No, there was no preaching. That's it. Now the preaching is going on, they are understanding. Nobody preached this. (pause) If you . . . just like a big building. If the foundation is wrong, then it will not stay.

Dr. Patel: This Bhagavad-gītā has got everything, all aspects of life.

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the beginning of teaching, that "You are not this body." If you remain in the false understanding that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," there is no spiritual education. Mohita. That is called mohita. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair, mohitaṁ nābhijānāti. He remains in ignorance. (aside) . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: He's a great devotee. Humbleness.

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

(CC Adi 17.31)

Caitanya . . .

Dr. Patel: Out of all those things, māna . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: . . . is the first thing that a man should . . .

Prabhupāda: Humble and meek. Christ also taught like that, "The humble and meek will go to the kingdom of God."

Dr. Patel: "Meek and humble will . . ." What is that?

Prabhupāda: Here the disease is nobody is humble, nobody is meek.

Dr. Patel: That is car-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Not car . . .

Dr. Patel: Car-dharma is that.

Prabhupāda: That is material dharma.

Dr. Patel: This is Kali-yuga going on.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, it is excessive, but this is going on. Even . . . maybe in Satya-yuga it was less.

Dr. Patel: Maybe nothing, perhaps, the first Satya-yuga. People were all saints. Isko idhar hi rahega. (He will stay here.)

Prabhupāda: Humko koi harza nahi hai. (I don't mind.)

Dr. Patel: Nahi, nahi. (No, no.) But they are fools. They should have kept more on the side of it, not middle of the road.

Prabhupāda: It is now in the middle of the street.

Dr. Patel: The government of this country is going on everywhere.

Prabhupāda: We have nothing to do. We are world. But it is in the middle of the street.

Dr. Patel: I have got a khila. This khila.

Prabhupāda: Yes. It has dignified.

Dr. Patel: They ought to thicken wall with a little under, because this kaccā wall foundation is there. They should make it . . . (indistinct) . . . this wall. They should dress it up, the foundation, which is above. No? (pause) You are going away today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: Tomorrow . . . (break) (end)