760812 - Conversation E - Tehran

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

760812ED-TEHRAN - August 12, 1976 - 109:44 Minutes

Nava-yauvana: "First we must reach to your standard, then we can become interested in spiritual life." It's an envious position.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Nava-yauvana: It's an envious position. On the material platform they are thinking, "You have gotten so much, now you can afford to practice this. We cannot afford such practice."

Prabhupāda: Then it is a luxury, it is not a necessity. Is it not?

Nava-yauvana: Yes, that's what they are thinking. After the material luxury, then you have this.

Prabhupāda: But why the Indians, they are not like Americans? You find in India still millions of people will go to the Kumbha-melā with torn cloth. They are not like Americans, riches. So why they take? India is well-known poverty-stricken. So why almost ninety-nine percent people, they are after Kṛṣṇa consciousness naturally? Still they'll go, when there is Kumbha-melā; so many saintly persons are coming. They will come by lakhs. Have you seen it? You have seen Kumbha-melā? You have seen? That is the proof. Not only Kumbha-melā. In Vṛndāvana, just like in our temple, recently it was jam-packed. Why they are coming to Vṛndāvana? Mostly they are coming from villages. Especially during this time at least twenty thousand, fifty thousand men are coming, daily. Still. We held Hare Kṛṣṇa festival in Calcutta, Bombay, Madras. As soon as it is advertised, you'll find fifteen thousand, twenty thousand men come. And if you hold for weeks, for weeks they will come. You have seen? They are not like Americans, rich. They are all poverty-stricken. To the general eyes they are poverty-stricken. Kumbha-melā you'll see, Haridwar, in Vṛndāvana. Or even in big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, such festivals are held, people will come by thousands. It is training, culture. (referring to Aniruddha) And this boy is taking three times bath, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is training and culture. And if he is kept in this culture, in future he'll be great saintly person. Then he'll do everything automatically. He will deliver others. It is training.

(pause)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda? With your permission, we will leave for half an hour to have kīrtana downstairs, and then we have . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.

(Ātreya Ṛṣi explaining in background)

Hari-śauri: They got one of those movie projectors—the ones in the small suitcase?—with all the films. We were just testing it. They were just testing it downstairs.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: We were planning to have . . . to show one movie tonight for the guests, that new movie that is made about New Vṛndāvana. When our other guests arrive we will show it at about eight o'clock. Would you like also to see it again, Śrīla Prabhupāda, or should we show it . . .?

Prabhupāda: I have no objection. Where it will be shown?

Hari-śauri: They can show it anywhere.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Anywhere. We can show it here if you like.

Hari-śauri: Those little boxes, they also, apart from showing on the screen, they project onto the wall as well, if you want.

Nava-yauvana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Ali. He was living with us for about four months and chanting sixteen rounds. Then he was taken into . . . the army took him.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Little bit of army, little bit of māyā.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: A little bit of army took him, plus a little bit of māyā. He's a very sincere, nice boy.

Prabhupāda: So. Let him go on chanting. Chanting cannot be checked, any position. (to Shahrezad, an Iranian lady) So what is your inquiry further?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is your further inquiry? (speaks Farsi with her)

Prabhupāda: Our latest Vṛndāvana report is very encouraging. He has used the word "Jam-packed," always people coming. They are selling good number of magazines, books, prasādam. Guesthouse is also filled up. Now we have festival going on nice. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. What is your further inquiry?

Shahrezad: I'm thinking to ask a question.

(long pause) (break)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . spiritual masters.

Shahrezad: There were.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: There have been very few of them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out this verse: manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye.

Harikeśa:

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ

(BG 7.3)

"Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Harikeśa: "There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally, mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge." (Ātreya Ṛṣi translating in background)

Prabhupāda: Ātreya, when this is going on you cannot talk; then the attention will be diverted. You can later on explain. Go on.

Harikeśa: "The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of . . ."

Prabhupāda: The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore ordinary persons or a little advanced person cannot understand it. And unless one is fully aware of Kṛṣṇa, one cannot become spiritual master. The subject matter itself is difficult. Therefore you don't find many spiritual masters. Go on.

Harikeśa: "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda.

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ

sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

(BS 5.1)

It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti, or devotional service, is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually, the path of bhakti is not easy. The so-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually, according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-

pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir

utpātāyaiva kalpate

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.101)

'Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads, Purāṇas, Nārada Pañcarātra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.' It is not possible for the Brahman-realized impersonalist or the Paramātmā-realized yogī to understand Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ (SB 1.1.1), māṁ tu veda na kaścana (BG 7.26). 'No one knows Me as I am,' the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), 'Such a great soul is very rare.' Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is (tattvataḥ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said:

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi

na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ

sevonmukhe hi jihvādau

svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.234)

'No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotee, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him.' (Padma Purāṇa)"

Prabhupāda: (loud chanting from mosques and singing in background) These words—ajam—what is the meaning of this?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Allah, "God is great, God is great, God is great." (confers with others) "God is greater than can be ever described. I accept and witness that God is one and there is no other partner, or any . . ."

Prabhupāda: Competitor.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ". . . competitor to Him. I witness that Muhammad is the prophet of God, is the . . ."

Prabhupāda: Representative.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: ". . . representative of God. I witness and accept Ali as Muhammad's representative."

Prabhupāda: Who is Ali?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Ali is representative of Muhammad. He is . . .

Pradyumna: Son of Muhammad. No?

Hari-śauri: Son-in-law? (background discussion)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: "Come and glorify God," say namaz. This is an invitation for namaz, glorification of God.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This azan is an invitation for glorification of God

Prabhupāda: Inviting everyone, come.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Inviting everyone to come and sing and glorify God.

Prabhupāda: And glorify.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is said five times a day. (background discussion with guests on this point) Three times a day. (translating from guests' explanation) "Come and be truthful, and remain fortunate, remain truthful, and stick to the right path. Come and join in the best activity, which is praise of the Lord. The highest form of activity, which is praise of the Lord." This is azan.

Prabhupāda: It is very good.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very nice. Nobody hears it.

Prabhupāda:

yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra rudra marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair

vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ

dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino

yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ

(SB 12.13.1)

The Vedic prayer it is like this. Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇāḥ. Yasya antam, the glories of the Lord, unlimited. So nobody can go to the limit of His glorification, either the sura or asura, the demons or the demigods. Nobody can reach. But He's glorified by the demigods, like yaṁ brahmā, Brahmā, Lord Brahmā, Śiva, Varuṇa, the predominating deity of air, fire, Lord Brahmā. Everyone worships Him, yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra stunvanti divyaiḥ stavaiḥ, by glorified prayers. And gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ. Vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadaiḥ—Vedaiḥ, by Vedic hymns, by Upaniṣad, by Vedic literature. Gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ. Dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (SB 12.13.1). The yogīs in meditation try to find out Him within the core of the heart. Yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ. The same prayer. The difference is the action. Difference is in the action. So far prayer is concerned, God is great, accepted, either by the Christian or the Muhammadan or the Hindus or the followers of Vedic principles. Now "God is great, glorify Him, and that is the business of human life," that they are not taking, practically. That is the defect. And that is to be done. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahma means the great. Brhavad brhanantvad iti brahma. Brahma means the greatest. Now here we get the information God is great. So naturally one should be inquisitive to know how He is great. That is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Just like if I introduce, "Here is a gentleman, very rich." So naturally next inquiry will be, "How he is rich? What is the position that he is very rich?" These inquiries are natural. If I simply remain satisfied by hearing that he is rich, that is also good. You have got some respect. But if you know how he is rich, to what extent he is rich, then your respect will be increased.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Your love also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If I understand that he is rich, I may consider, "Well, I have got one thousand dollars, so he may have one hundred thousand dollars," that's all. But if you understand that he has got millions and millions of dollars, then you'll appreciate, "Oh, so rich!" Then your regard for him will increase. That is not being done. Stereotyped, "God is great." How He is great, to what extent He is great, what is His greatness, activities, if you know more and more, then your regard for God will increase. But that they are not doing. Simply officially, "God is great, God is great," finished. No jijñāsā, no inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. One should be inquisitive. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One who has become inquisitive of the uttamam, the most exalted subject matter, he requires a guru. Otherwise, who will answer his inquiries? Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. If he's not jijñāsuḥ, what is the need of guru? And where is the question of advancement? He must be jijñāsuḥ.

And that is . . . people are not interested. Officially, go to church, go to mosque, go to temple and do something. Then drop it and go to your own business and do whatever you like. No discrimination. They're not serious. (greets guests) Aiye. Not very serious. One who is serious, he'll inquire. Otherwise, the formula is all right, "God is great. There is no more greater than Him." But inquire, "How He is great?" (guests enter) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Oh, thank you very much. Jaya. Therefore society is required, association is required, to inquire. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). (greets guests) Aiye. There is need of association for discussing how God is great. That is needed—jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Unless one is inquisitive . . . Sharmajī, you can come here. So, that is the . . . simply we should not remain satisfied to understand . . . that is not proper understanding: officially, "God is great." No. Try to inquire how great He is, why He is great. Then your regard for God, your devotion for God will increase. And because we do not inquire how God is great, therefore cheap gods are coming. Any rascal, he is repre . . . "I am God." Because we do not know actually what is God. But if you inquire about God, if you go through the śāstras, as it is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā:

yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya

jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ

viṣṇur mahān sa iha yasya kalā-viśeṣo

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(BS 5.48)

Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya: the breathing period. We have got idea, breathing period. Within second we are having two, three breathing. So within the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu innumerable universes are coming out. This is greatness. How great is God, it is some idea, that within the breathing period innumerable universes are coming. We cannot conceive of one universe, but we get the information that innumerable universes are coming out during the breathing period. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (BS 5.48). That Mahā-Viṣṇu, yasya kalā-viśeṣa, part and plenary portion, govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi.

So when we speak all these things, they'll take it mythology. And a cheap god comes, we'll accept, "Here is God." This is the position. They do not try to understand that actually God is great, how great He is. That is called kūpa-maṇḍūka-nyāya, Dr. Frog's philosophy. Dr. Frog is within the well, three feet length and breadth. He's thinking, "This is the ultimate reservoir of water." And when he's informed there is Atlantic Ocean, he simply calculates, "All right, this is three feet. It may be six feet or it may be seven feet, all right, come on, ten feet." He's going like that. So God is not like that, within our calculation. In the Bhagavad-gītā when Kṛṣṇa was speaking about the vibhūti-yoga, He was speaking, "I am this amongst this." Find out this vibhūti-yoga, Twelfth Chapter I think it is.

Harikeśa: You want the last verse?

Prabhupāda: No, one . . . where it is said: "I am this amongst this," like that.

Harikeśa: Just the English?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: "I am the Self, O Guḍākeśa, seated in the hearts of all creatures. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings."

"Of the Ādityas I am Viṣṇu, of lights I am the radiant sun. I am Marīci of the Maruts, and among the stars I am the moon."

"Of the Vedas I am the Sāma-veda; of the demigods I am Indra; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force, knowledge."

"Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva; of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the lord of wealth (Kuvera); of the Vasus I am fire (Agni); and of the mountains I am Meru."

"Of priests, O Arjuna, know Me to be the chief, Bṛhaspati, the lord of devotion. Of generals I am Skanda, the lord of war; and of bodies of water I am the ocean."

"Of the great sages I am Bhṛgu; of vibrations I am the transcendental oṁ. Of sacrifices I am the chanting of the holy names (japa), and of immovable things I am the Himalayas."

"Of all trees I am the holy fig tree, and amongst sages and demigods I am Nārada. Of the singers of the gods (Gandharvas) I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila."

"Of horses know Me to be Uccaiḥśravā, who rose out of the ocean, born of the elixir of immortality; of lordly elephants I am Airāvata, and among men I am the monarch."

"Of weapons I am the thunderbolt; among cows I am the surabhi, givers of abundant milk. Of procreators I am Kandarpa, the god of love, and of serpents I am Vāsuki, the chief."

"Of the celestial Nāga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuṇa. Of departed ancestors I am Aryamā, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, the lord of death."

"Among the Daitya demons I am the devoted Prahlāda; among subduers I am time; among the beasts I am the lion; and among birds I am Garuḍa, the feathered carrier of Viṣṇu."

"Of purifiers I am the wind; of the wielders of weapons I am Rāma; of fishes I am the shark; and of flowing rivers I am the Ganges."

"Of all conditions I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the Self, and among logicians I am the conclusive truth."

"Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahmā, whose manifold faces turn everywhere."

"I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience."

"Of hymns I am the Bṛhat-sāma sung to the Lord Indra, and of poetry I am the Gāyatrī verse, sung daily by brāhmaṇas. Of months I am November and December, and of seasons I am flower-bearing spring."

"I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong."

"Of the descendants of Vṛṣṇi I am Vāsudeva, and of the Pāṇḍavas I am Arjuna. Of the sages I am Vyāsa, and among great thinkers I am Uśanā."

"Among punishments I am the rod of chastisement, and of those who seek victory, I am morality. Of secret things I am silence, and of the wise I am wisdom."

"Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being—moving or unmoving—that can exist without Me."

"O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end of My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences."

"Know that all beautiful, glorious and mighty creations spring but from a spark of My splendor."

"But what need is there, O Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe." (BG 10.20-42)

Prabhupāda: That's it. This is greatness. So we should not simply be satisfied "God is great." We must try to know how great He is. Then our God consciousness will be fixed up. It's all right?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That people are not interested. Only officially chanting "God is great," that's all. Finished. Business finished. You try to understand. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the Vedānta-sūtra. Jijñāsā: go, inquire, be inquisitive. Jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). So one should be inquisitive. That is human life. And as soon as you become inquisitive, you become aware of God more and more, then your devotion increases. That is wanted.

Mr. Sahani: It is also said that you have a blind faith.

Prabhupāda: Blind faith?

Mr. Sahani: You should have a faith in your God. But when you are inquisitive and you keep asking more and more and more, and . . .

Prabhupāda: And who says that you keep blind faith? Who says?

Mr. Sahani: You should have faith, in God, should have faith.

Prabhupāda: No, no. God, it is not blind faith. God is there, you have to accept. It is not blind.

Mr. Sahani: Means give up, give everything, surrender. You were talking day before yesterday, when we surrender that means we don't ask any question. So when we are inquisitive, then we ask more questions. How do we blend these two things together?

Prabhupāda: Blind, blind . . . God says that idam . . . idaṁ te jñānam ākhyātam? Guhyam, guhyataraṁ mayā. Find out this.

Harikeśa: Idaṁ te guhyatamam?

Prabhupāda: Idaṁ te jñānam prakhyātam. That verse, the other day we discussed? Yathecchasi tathā kuru? Where is that verse?

Pradyumna: Eighteenth chapter.

Hari-śauri: Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyam (BG 18.68)?

Pradyumna: Ya idam.

Harikeśa:

iti te jñānam ākhyātaṁ

guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā

vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa

yathecchasi tathā kuru

(BG 18.63)

Prabhupāda: So there is no question of blind faith. Here it is said that, "I have explained to you the knowledge, confidential and most confidential. Now you consider about it, and after due consideration, then do whatever you like." But if you actually appreciate that there is God, here is Kṛṣṇa, so whatever He is saying, it is all right. Sarvam etad 'ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14). There is no harm even if you accept His word blindly. There is no harm. Otherwise, if you don't like to follow blindly, then consider what is instructed. And then whatever you like, you can do. Both ways are there. But if you have faith in God, "God is saying this, I must do it," that blind faith is as good. Although it is blind faith, it is the fact. Actually it is not blind faith. It is full faith in God. "God is speaking this; I'll accept it." Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. That is the position of mahātmā. Although such mahātmās are very rare, but one who accepts this fact that, "God is speaking, so let me accept it without any consideration," that is as good as you accept. If gold is real, something real gold is offered to you, you accept it blindly or by checking it, the result is the same.

Mr. Sahani: But being inquisitive, again, and accepting it . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Inquisitive means one who does not accept that, "Here is a person giving me gold. He's very good man; he'll not cheat me." Then you accept. But if you have no such faith, then you check it. But real gold, either you take in blind faith or by checking, the result is the same. Now it is up to you. If you believe Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead as He says . . . He is the Supreme Person. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). That's a fact. But if you don't believe it, then check and consider of our statement, and then accept. Two ways are there. Why people are misled? They do not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are taking Bhagavad-gītā in their own way. So why they should take Bhagavad-gītā in their own way? That is not good. If you want to speak something better than Bhagavad-gītā, you speak separately. Why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā? Our preaching process is that you take Bhagavad-gītā's instruction, that is perfect, and you'll be happy. This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Don't try to interpret it. Don't try to exact some meaning of your choice. No, that is not good. You take it as it is, you'll be benefited. Now if you take it, that it is spoken by bhagavān svayam, then it is blind faith. It may be blind faith, but it is right. If you don't want, then Kṛṣṇa says, iti te jñānam prakhyātaṁ guhyād guhyataraṁ mayā. Then you check it by your knowledge. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Both ways you can accept.

Therefore we have to follow mahājana. Our knowledge is always scanty. So mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). That is the way. Tarkaḥ apratiṣṭha. Tarka, by argument, you'll never come to the conclusion. Śrutayor vibhinnam. There are śāstras for different persons; in different way they are presented. So they appear to be contradictory from one another. Not contradictory; at least, different from one another. So śrutayor vibhinnam. Na cāsav ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. And a great philosopher is not a great philosopher if he does not present a different view. So therefore, the spiritual essence is very confidential. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihita guhyayam. Therefore we have to follow the mahājana, great personality. That is the system, Vedic system, guru-paramparā. So that paramparā is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mahājana. Kṛṣṇa said imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ. Rājarṣi, mahājana. Mahājanas are explained also. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, he's mahājana; Bali Mahārāja, mahājana; Brahmā, mahājana; Nārada, mahājana; Lord Śiva, mahājana. Balir vaiyāsakir vayam. Janaka Mahārāja. So we have to follow them. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā: evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So there is no question of blind faith. If we follow the mahājana, example of the authorities, then our life is success. And guru means he is mahājana or follower of mahājana.

So we have to select the mahājana process. According to our process, we follow the Brahma-sampradāya. And Brahmā is one of the mahājanas. So Brahmā has his disciplic succession, paramparā. Brahmā's disciple is Nārada, Nārada's disciple is Vyāsadeva, and Vyāsadeva's disciple is Śukadeva Gosvāmī. In this way, we come to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples, the six Gosvāmīs. Then others, then our Guru Mahārāja. But the same thing we are speaking. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). We are not manufacturing anything. That is the guru-paramparā system. And if we follow strictly the line of mahājana, then there is no question of mistake. It is not blind faith. The superiors are following, and we are also following. Of course, there are books, there are everything. Śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhi (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.101). Everything is there. So there is no question of being mistaken. The guide is there, the spiritual master is there. So there is no difficulty. (guest enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Aiye. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). That is the best way: follow the mahājana. Unfortunately, the mahājanas . . . without following mahājana, everyone is becoming mahājana in his own way. And that is being supported, that you manufacture your own way of spiritual progress, that is all right. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. And that is going on now. You can manufacture in your own way. And there are thousands who are coming, manufacturing their own way and spoiling the whole thing. That is the . . . otherwise there is no difficulty, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ.

We are therefore requesting people that don't be misled. Here is the greatest mahājana, Kṛṣṇa Himself. You follow His instruction. It is very easy, there is no complication. This is our propaganda. But we don't make any compromise. Why shall I make compromise? If we are presenting the right thing, why shall I make compromise with something wrong? Boliye Sharmaji. (Sharmaji, what do you say?) If we are confident that we are presenting the right thing, why shall I make compromise with the wrong thing? Mataji, aap kuch nai bolte hain kya baat hain? (So mātāji, what is your opinion? You are not saying anything.) No, you are intelligent. You can say if I am saying something wrong. Our culture has been spoiled by interpreting wrongly Kṛṣṇa's words. Bhārata-bhūmi, puṇya-bhūmi, still, thousands and millions are there. If there is Kumbha-melā, millions of men are coming. Whenever we hold some Kṛṣṇa consciousness meeting, daily, twenty thousand, fifteen thousand, thirty thousand men come. The spirit is there. Unfortunately, that is being artificially depressed. But it cannot be done. The puṇya-bhūmi, bhārata-bhūmi, it will go on. But the unfortunate thing is that the clear thing is there, and that is being misinterpreted and people are misled. That is the difficulty. (break)

Mātāji: Jiv ko is baat ka gyan ho jaye ki spiritual life lead karke mujhe ye laav hoga tabhi wo material life ko churne ko taiyar hoga. (If the living entity understands what he can gain by practising spirituality, then only he can give up material life.)

Prabhupāda: But the living entity has become so foolish, that he does not understand how he can be benefited. Therefore he is not even interested to know.)

Prabhupāda: Just like Bhagavad-gītā, Woh toh itna murkh hogaya ki wo jantahi nahi uska kis tarah se laav hoga, or natoh wo janne ke liye taiyar hain. Jaise Bhagavad-gita me batata hain. (He is so stupid that he doesn't know how he will be benefited, and neither is he ready to know. As it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā,) manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). So they are not interested. They are simply interested "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." Then? You were telling one, the other day that, "First of all, let us become rich like Americans, then we shall talk of Kṛṣṇa." When they go to preach about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the people say that, "We shall think of Kṛṣṇa later on." In India also they say like that, that "We are now poverty-stricken. Let us first of all become rich, and then we shall think of Kṛṣṇa." They say like that. They are not interested. They think to become rich is more than understanding Kṛṣṇa. That is the position. Therefore they are not interested. They say frankly that, "We are not interested. Why do you bother us?" Just see. They say: "Why do you bother us? Why do you come here to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" How much difficult it is you can just understand. They are not ready to hear about it, and our leaders say: "All the śāstras, now throw away in the water."

Mrs. Patel: Do you think the deep-rooted Indian culture and religion will ever have a sort of a degradation, or will it continue?

Prabhupāda: Continue, because if you remain like animals, it will continue. If you become human being actually, then it will stop. But we want to continue as animals. That is the present position. The present civilization is very strong animal platform.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

(SB 10.84.13)

Go-khara. Go-khara means animal. Go means cow, khara means ass. So yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke. Anyone who is thinking that, "I am this body composed of kapha-pitta-vāyu," sa eva go-kharaḥ, "he's animal." Now analyze everyone. Everyone is thinking that, "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that," all in the bodily concept of life. So if you continue this bodily concept of life, then you remain animal. And if you take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, Kṛṣṇa's first instruction is . . . find out this verse:

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

(BG 2.11)

This is paṇḍita. Who does not think seriously about this body, he is paṇḍita. And everyone is thinking seriously about this body, then who is paṇḍita? All sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), all cows and asses. If you keep yourselves as cows and asses, then where is civilization? What is that called? Hmm? Find out this verse.

Harikeśa:

śrī bhagavān uvāca

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

(BG 2.11)

"The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Harikeśa: "The Lord at once took the position of the teacher and chastised the student, calling him, indirectly, a fool. The Lord said, 'You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned—one who knows what is body and what is soul—does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.' As it will be explained in later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is even more important than religious formularies. And, because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was posing himself as the body. So he should not consider himself as a learned man. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Then?

Harikeśa: "As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow; therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned, and for him there is no cause of lamentation, regardless of the condition of the material body."

Prabhupāda: The people are not aware of these things, neither they are interested to know that the soul is more important than the body. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Still, they are placing themselves as learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā, but sticking to the body. And one who is sticking to the bodily concept of life, he's no better than sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). The whole civilization is going on this understanding of body. And then Kṛṣṇa begins that instruction, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). This, that is very vividly explained, that the soul is important because it is eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Don't think by the end of the body the soul is also ended. It will continue, and it accepts another body, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). So who is caring for this knowledge? Suppose I have got to . . . it is a fact, we have to change this body. But what body I am going to change, who is considering? He's thinking of this body only, but he has to change. The science is there, but nobody is caring to know it. And still, they are proud of their education. And Kṛṣṇa condemns: nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ.

So they are keeping themselves on the bodily concept of life and posing themselves as paṇḍita. This is going on. A person identifying himself with the body, he's go-kharaḥ, and he's posing himself as paṇḍita. This is the position. The whole education is to realize that, "I am not this body, I am soul," ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Then he'll be happy. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Everything is there. You cannot become a learned scholar or learned leader from the platform of go-kharaḥ. That is the defect. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13): this is the first instruction. Who is thinking that, "What next body I'm going to accept?" Nobody's interested. They say after finishing this body everything is finished. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Then what kind of paṇḍita he is? Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, nityam . . . na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. The soul is immortal. Antavanta ime dehāḥ: the śarīra is antavat, perishable. Nityasyoktāḥ śarīrinaḥ. Who is considering? If I am eternal, if I am not going to die even after the annihilation of the body, then the next question would be jijñāsuḥ. Then what will be my next position? What kind of body I am going to get? That is intelligent. But nobody has this intelligence, and he's passing as paṇḍita. Big, big professor, they'll say: "Swāmījī, after death, everything is finished." I went to Moscow. There was a big professor, Kotovsky, Indology professor. So we had some talks. So he does not believe transmigration of the soul, and he's a learned scholar. And everywhere you find that, the same atheistic philosophy.

ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet

yāvāj jivet sukhaṁ jivet

bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya

kutaḥ punar agamano bhavet

(Cārvāka Muni)

So enjoy life. So "I have no money." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. "Beg, borrow, steal, bring ghee, and prepare nice preparation and enjoy." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet, yāvāj jivet sukhaṁ jivet. So long you live, enjoy. "I'll become a debtor. Then I'll act sinfully." Ah, bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya kutaḥ punar agamano bhavet: your body will be burnt and everything finished. This philosophy is going on.

But Kṛṣṇa says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The body is burned, don't think that you are burned. You are living. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Who is caring for that? Nobody cares. And still they are passing as paṇḍita, philosopher, scientist. This is the misfortune of the present civilization. A person who is equal to go-kharaḥ, he is the teacher, he is the philosopher, he is leader.

andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās

te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ

na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ

durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ

(SB 7.5.31)

People are running like anything in the street, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking that this civilization, having nice roads and streets and number of cars and running here and there, this is . . . bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They do not know what is the goal of life. And if you ask the goal of life, "What is the goal of life?" "After death everything is finished," that's all. "Let me enjoy." Ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. Beg borrow, steal, bring money and enjoy. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). If by his activities he's going to be a lower animal next life, then what is the value of his so much business and activities? Therefore they do not believe in next life. Close the eyes. Never mind, where is the danger in front.

Mrs. Patel: It is convenient for them to.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not convenient—foolishness. A rabbit, when there is some big animals, he closes his eyes. He thinks, "There is no danger." That does not mean he's out of danger. He'll be eaten up. So simply by concocting that there is no life after death, you'll not be escaped. In Bhagavad-gītā informs, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. There is no need of studying any literature, Vedic literature. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, Kṛṣṇa is giving evidence. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I was not this body in the beginning, I was a very jubilant child like this. Where is that body? That body is not existing. It is different body, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So why they do not believe dehāntara-prāptiḥ? I am the same soul who possessed a child's body, young man's body, boy's body. Now I have got the old man's body. So dehāntara is there, and I am still. I remember, I was a child, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister. I remember still. But where is that body? It is different body. This is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. I am the same man who was lying down on the lap of my elder sister, and now I am differently situated. The body has changed. This is the proof. Kṛṣṇa is giving you this proof, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13).

So if we accept authority of Kṛṣṇa and His statement, so reasonable and so scientific, then our life is successful. And if we don't care for them, let us do our business. But nature will not excuse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). Simply our false ahaṅkāra, egotism: "Ah, I don't care." You may do that, but prakṛti will take action. Because you are under the control of the nature's law, uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Uru means very hard, tight. Or uru means the thigh. And dāmni, by ropes, baddha. We cannot transgress the laws of nature. If we willfully transgress, we can do that, but we will have to suffer. If you touch fire, it will burn. It will not excuse that, "Here is a child, he did not know." No excuse. Either a child or elderly, you have touched fire, then you must be burned. This is nature's law. Very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Why you have got different bodies? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. As we have associated with the modes of material nature, we have got different types of bodies. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of forms? The forms are different, but within the form, the soul is one.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, may we show that movie now?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Which side you'll show? (background discussion)

Prabhupāda: This side?

Dayānanda: I want to show it just here, Prabhupāda, then everyone can sit here on the inside of the room so you can see.

Prabhupāda: All right. That's nice. (someone offers something to eat) What is that? Again something?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. This is better. Can I skin them for you?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: (background discussion as devotees set up) (break)

Mr. Sahani: When this temple will be . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Prabhupāda: Other? No?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Would you like to see another, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? (laughter)

Harikeśa: "As Brilliant As the Sun"?

(discussion about setting up next film)

Harikeśa: Yadubara's becoming simply first class.

Prabhupāda: Who is?

Harikeśa: This film is simply first class. Super first class.

Prabhupāda: (referring to prasādam) You take this also. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is due to American boy's cooperation.

Mr. Sahani: Yes, very nice. A great achievement.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Due to Śrīla Prabhupāda's mercy.

Prabhupāda: And now we are trying Middle East with the cooperation of Iranians.

Mr. Sahani: I'm sure next year there'll be a film on Iran. When are you going to make the public announcement for this temple?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is announced. Śrīla Prabhupāda's visit was sufficient.

Prabhupāda: It is announced by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126): as many towns and villages are there on the surface of the globe, this movement will go on. Sarvatra pracāra haibe mora nāma. This will go on. It is already predicted by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Mr. Sahani: Patel jee aaye hain. Vah bahut hee nek bhakt hai. (Mr. Patel has come. He is very pious devotee.) You've not seen today, the temple building has been taken over.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mr. Patel has donated over $20,000 for the purchase of that temple. Mr. and Mrs. Patel.

Prabhupāda: Sannimitan bharam tyaga vinasena ate sati. Money will be spent, and if it is spent for good cause, that is the proper utilization. Sannimitan bharam tyaga vinasena ate sati.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: All of the community people here in this room have donated as much as they can. They have helped us.

Prabhupāda: In America we have got the facility for selling books. Contribution there is, but our main source of income by selling books. We are selling books to the extent of sixty . . .?

Harikeśa: Sixty thousand dollars.

Prabhupāda: Sixty thousand dollars daily. Sixty thousand dollars daily, America and Europe. Europe we have got other language publication. Have you got the German?

Jñānagamya: We had French Bhagavad-gītā here, Prabhupāda, but it was sold. We had one German Bhagavad-gītā, too.

Prabhupāda: We have published Chinese Bhagavad-gītā. Bring it. It is translated by one Chinese student.

(indistinct background comments)

Prabhupāda: Give it to Mr . . .

Mrs. Patel: I can read Japanese, but not Chinese.

Prabhupāda: You know Japanese?

Mrs. Patel: I was brought up there.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Mrs. Patel: There was . . . was just as good as born there. There was just six months baby when I was taken there.

Prabhupāda: Tokyo?

Mrs. Patel: Kobe.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Kobe. Oh, in Kobe there are many Indians

Mrs. Patel: Many. Eleven years I stayed.

Prabhupāda: I have been there. Many good Indian population. There is a Indian association also. I have been there.

Mrs. Patel: Yes.

Jñānagamya: You are the greatest teacher in recorded history, Prabhupāda, because your movement is so well founded in these books, more so than any religious teacher—Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus Christ. Your movement is perfectly founded even during your own lifetime. All your books are perfectly edited by you. It is truly Lord Caitanya's mercy.

Prabhupāda: Books means solid ground. What we want to preach, it is recorded, not any concocted ideas. There is direction by Rūpa Gosvāmī:

śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-

pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir

utpātāyaiva kalpate

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.101)

Without the support of śruti, smṛti, purāṇa, any religious movement for understanding God is simply disturbance—utpātāyaiva kalpate. Utpāt. That is the . . . it is the version given by . . . even Kṛṣṇa, He's God Himself, He's speaking, He's giving reference to the Vedānta-sūtra: brahma-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ (BG 13.5). So without reference to the Vedic literature, anything you speak, it has no ground. Śruti-pramāṇa, this is Vedic culture. Śruti-pramāṇa. It must be supported by śruti. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find whenever Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, He gives immediately Vedic evidence, śruti-pramāṇa. Then it is solid. So we are trying to present this movement with śruti-pramāṇa. Our Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will be finished in sixty volumes, and Caitanya-caritāmṛta is already finished in seventeen volumes. So altogether at least we'll have hundred volumes of books, small and big, to give śruti-pramāṇa. This is the idea.

(pause)

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Mrs. Patel has prepared some khicuṛi.

Prabhupāda: Khicuṛi? Where it is?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's here.

Prabhupāda: I'll take. How many children? You have children?

Mrs. Patel: Two sons and one daughter.

Prabhupāda: Two sons.

Mrs. Patel: And one daughter. They have gone to India for their holidays now. They wanted to go to India.

Prabhupāda: So, give everyone little, little prasāda.

Mr. Sahani: What time is your flight tomorrow?

Hari-śauri: Twelve o'clock.

Mr. Sahani: You're going to Bombay?

Hari-śauri: Bombay, yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen our Bombay temple?

Mr. Sahani: Not yet.

Prabhupāda: There we are spending about one crore of rupees.

Mr. Patel: We have seen this Vṛndāvana temple. That's very good.

Prabhupāda: There we have spent more than fifty lakhs.

Mr. Sahani: This New Vṛndāvana temple will be the main center of the Society, where everybody should . . .

Prabhupāda: No. New Vṛndāvana is one of the centers. We have got 103 centers. In Australia also we have got, Melbourne.

Hari-śauri: (aside) Shouldn't we all eat downstairs? Should we have everyone take prasādam downstairs?

Prabhupāda: No, here.

Hari-śauri: You want? What would you like?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Hari-śauri: If you wanted something?

(indistinct discussion) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Kṛṣṇa practically showing how to live Vṛndāvana life. In Vṛndāvana nobody knows Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nobody knows. But their love for Śrī Kṛṣṇa is intense. That is wanted. Premā pumartho mahān. That is required. You simply become an intense lover of Kṛṣṇa, bās, your life is successful. It doesn't require any education or . . . that is the Vṛndāvana residents' life. They did not know what Kṛṣṇa is. But it is very loving center, of all the residents of Vṛndāvana. When Kṛṣṇa's wonderful activities are discussed, Nanda Mahārāja's friend would suggest, "Nanda Mahārāja, your son is wonderful. He must be some demigod. He has come to live with us." They did not know that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord.

(long pause)

Prabhupāda: How far it is, Afghanistan, from here?

Mr. Sahani: Very near. Actually, it's only one and a half hours.

Prabhupāda: Only? By car?

Mr. Sahani: No, no, by air.

Prabhupāda: By air.

Mr. Sahani: It's about, less than two thousand kilometers. Border is even nearer, but Kabul is less than two thousand kilometers.

Prabhupāda: One Afghan gentleman came here. In Afghanistan there are many domiciled Hindus.

Mr. Sahani: Yes. Originally we used to live in Peshawar, and they used to work and do business in Kabul and they lived in Kabul, but then they stayed on there and became Afghans.

Prabhupāda: After Pakistan. They left Peshawar and went to . . .

Mr. Sahani: No, they were living there, because there was no passport, there was no need of visa, you could anytime come and go. But after independence of Afghanistan, at the same time, they made border, and a country of their own, and then these people stayed on this side, and they became Afghans. There are about, oh, six thousand, five, six thousand.

Prabhupāda: Homes.

Mr. Sahani: No, five, six thousand people who are Hindus but have Afghan passports. They have got a beautiful temple there.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Mr. Sahani: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: In Kabul.

Mr. Sahani: Yes, beautiful temple, a gurudwara, and there are many Sikhs also there.

Prabhupāda: No, why not a beautiful temple here?

Mr. Sahani: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Is there any objection?

Mr. Sahani: No objection.

Mrs. Patel: Of course not. Because there's already gurukula-dwara here. There shouldn't be any.

Mr. Sahani: They have no objection, there's no restriction from the government.

Prabhupāda: So make a nice temple.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: First we need the land.

Prabhupāda: Take that land that you showed me.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, we need a piece of that.

Prabhupāda: Why piece? Take a big land. Make something gorgeous. Kṛṣṇa is not poor. Although He likes to live in the village, but He is Dvārakādhīśa also.

Mr. Patel: It should be big land for the . . . (indistinct)

Mr. Sahani: Here the land prices are five times what they are in America.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. Eh?

Mr. Sahani: Five times what they are in New York.

Prabhupāda: There?

Mr. Sahani: The price of land here in Tehran is five times what it is in New York.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? (laughter) Five times?

Mrs. Sahani: Highest, almost highest in the world, next to probably Tokyo.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Mr. Sahani: The house which you have seen today is worth two lakhs of dollars. In two lakhs of dollars you can have palace in America.

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Mr. Sahani: But two lakhs here, you have to have all two lakhs completely in your hand before you can step into this house. Over there with two lakhs you step into the house, a palace of one million dollars.

Prabhupāda: Our Los Angeles temple, what we paid? Dayānanda, you know?

Dayānanda: It was two twenty-five, I think. 225,000 dollars.

Prabhupāda: 225,000.

Dayānanda: 225,000.

Mr. Sahani: 225,000. But it must be a gorgeous place. Beautiful. Huge.

Mr. Patel: Land must be very large also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Mr. Sahani: And what was the down payment for the . . .

Prabhupāda: I paid fifty thousand.

Mr. Sahani: Fifty thousand. Here the down payment means the total payment. You have to pay everything.

Mr. Patel: And land is so small, must be very small.

Mr. Sahani: Land is only 260 . . . 226 meters. (background comments) We expect that in one or two years' time the prices of land will come back to normal, or at least there will be some place available out of town at a reasonable price. When that happens, I think . . .

Ātreya Ṛṣi: I don't think that will happen.

Mr. Patel: No, it won't happen. Price will never become down. It's staying fifteen years. (indistinct comments among guests)

Mr. Sahani: Now, you know, people are taking the advantage. One who is selling now, he's going to America. He says, "Let me collect this two lakhs of dollars, go and buy in America."

Mr. Patel: America is so cheap.

Prabhupāda: They, in America, they immigration?

Mr. Sahani: He must have taken immigration. And then he is going to America. His son and daughter must be there. All Iranians have daughters and sons in America or Europe. So . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the reason?

Mr. Sahani: Reason is because from the last fifteen years the education was a big problem here. And the government needed people to get educated. So they gave lot of facilities that people should send their children out to get educated.

Prabhupāda: Foreign education.

Mr. Sahani: Yes. So everybody who could have some money, if he could afford it, he sent his children to America, London, Paris, Germany. Berne even, Switzerland. But they are full in Germany, they are full in London, they are full in America. They are the four places where everybody . . . in London you walk everywhere on the street and you can hear . . .

Prabhupāda: (guest leaving) Oh, you are going? Thank you very much. Utsāhān dhairyāt . . . Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Nava-yauvana: So we are here. If we work hard and try to please Kṛṣṇa, then there will get a temple.

Mr. Sahani: Yes.

Nava-yauvana: Śrīla Prabhupāda arrived in New York with only . . . eight dollars? Forty dollars? How many dollars you had when you arrived in New York?

Prabhupāda: Seven dollars.

Nava-yauvana: Seven dollars.

Dayānanda: I think you got that from selling Bhāgavatams.

Prabhupāda: No, that extra. I brought from India seven dollars. At that time the exchange was four rupees, eight annas. So they would not allow to take more than forty rupees. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . So I wanted to sell one set of books to the captain, Mr. Pandiya. So he gave me twenty dollars in exchange of three books. (end)