770127 - Conversation B - Jagannatha Puri

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770127R2-PURI - January 27, 1977 - 26:25 Minutes

(Conversation with Two Indian Guests)

Prabhupāda: Politics means always fight between the kṣatriya and kṣatriya.

Indian man (1): Still, actually, with this nonviolence method, we could get them, I mean, get the Britishers out from India.

Prabhupāda: No, you are not . . . violence method. It is the Subhas Bose's organization.

Indian man (1): Said . . . that has got some . . .

Prabhupāda: No, it is circumstantial. Circumstantially means the Britishers were not at all concerned about the non . . . they knew that, "We . . ."

Indian man (1): Had to go.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They knew that, "We are not going. So long the nonviolence is there, we are safe." They were occasionally calling Gandhi and patting him, "Sir, why you are doing this? Let us compromise," because he knew that, "So long nonviolence will continue, we are safe." But Subhas Bose's protest was that, "If you don't take to nonviolence, then these people are never going." That was the difference of opinion between Subhas Bose and . . . so when he was taking the Congress in hand, Gandhi became so angry that Subhas Bose, being elected President, Gandhi did not attend the Congress. So other workers, he requested Subhas Bose that, "You resign. Otherwise Gandhi will not." So he resigned. He done right. And then he thought that, "Unless I go out of India, I cannot do anything." Then he managed to go out of India, and Singapore, he . . . Indians, with their help and Hitler's intervention, he organized this INA. And when the Britishers saw that, "Now the soldiers are joining national movement, then we cannot rule over," then they decided, "Let us make some compromise, and as much possible, do harm. Divide this India, Pakistan and India, and go away." This is fact.

Indian man (1): Actually, I told you that before.

Prabhupāda: So they decided that because without soldiers and police, how they can rule over? And that, when they saw the soldiers are now joining Subhas Bose and they are planning to come to India from Imphal, so they saw, "Now it is impossible." They are politicians. They could understand. So therefore the conclusion is: It is not Gandhi's nonviolence. It is Subhas Bose's INA which compelled them to go away.

Indian man (1): Both had impact actually. Subhas Bose had a great impact because, you see . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say violent. When they were threatened with violence . . . they are not philosophers, that nonviolence will drive away. They are politicians. "You go on with your nonviolence movement." Gandhi did it for twenty years in Urban. What is that?

Pradyumna: Durban, South Africa?

Prabhupāda: Durban, Durban. No conclusion; the Indians are still segregated. I had been in South Africa. So from . . . what is that? Johannesburg. Johannesburg city, that Indian quarter, at least ten to fifteen miles away in a jungle. And there they have kept slaughterhouse.

Indian man (1): Oh, near the Indian quarters.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Indians, whole night they are hearing the screaming of the animals. Means purposefully they have created this disturbance. And Indians have got some sentiment of cow-killing. And that screaming is going on whole night.

Indian man (1): Whole night . . . (indistinct Bengali)

Prabhupāda: So that they may go away. This policy is still going on.

Indian man (1): Ācchā? South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And any quarter, the Indians, they organize, and they say, "You go away now, that quarter." Still going on.

Indian man (1): Still going on. Hya, okhantao colche, oi ye apnar Uganda . . . okhane to sob . . . (Yes, that is going on in Uganda . . . there are all . . .)

Prabhupāda: This is the position of Indian. So that part, Gandhi's movement there, that was a failure. No concession was given, still now. So these people, they don't care about this nonviolence, satyāgraha.

Indian man (1): But still, in America Martin Luther King saw nonviolence so greatly.

Prabhupāda: Ora sob esob grahya korena. (They don't care about it.) That is also failure.

Pradyumna: I think they were more scared of the violence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: The blacks started groups in terrorism.

Prabhupāda: And then, then . . . Osob ora bisvas korena . . . (They don't believe that . . .) it may be taken as a . . . who cares?

Indian man (1): This nonviolence is just put in the head of the others.

Prabhupāda: No, nobody cares for this non . . . (break) . . . that is not the India has no kṣatriya spirit. Very good kṣatriya spirit. But it was not organized. That is the difference of opinion between Gandhi and Subhas. He wanted to organize it.

Indian man (1): That's . . . but Gandhiji knew actually it's not possible to organize this violence in India, because the people are not of that nature.

Prabhupāda: No, everything has got. Just like Subhas Bose organized outside.

Indian man (1): Subhas Bose was a very great organizer and a great politician.

Prabhupāda: He organized. He made compromise, some he made, this Hitler and Tojo, that "Whoever, Indian soldiers surrendered, you . . ."

Indian man (1): They should go to INA.

Prabhupāda: INA. He made this . . . and the soldiers were voluntarily surrendering.

Indian man (1): (Prabhupāda chuckling) Ah, many. No, Subhas was . . . had got a great personality.

Prabhupāda: When the Britishers saw, "Now the soldiers are coming in national movement. There is no hope. Better break this and go peacefully so that our business may not be disturbed, our relation may not be disturbed. Make a Commonwealth and so on, so on, hodgepodge. And do as much harm as possible dividing Pakistan and Hindustan, all the food in Pakistan, East Bengal and West Pakistan, gehun (wheat) and rice." And this Hindustan in starvation, because they were getting gehun from Punjab and rice from East Bengal, and that is stopped. They very clever. Greatest harm they did. And in politics made in such a way that these two people, Hindustan and Pakistan, always fight. So they have gained. You have not gained. Gandhi wanted Hindu-Muslim unity. They made so bitter relationship that they will perpetually fight. That is Gandhi's qualification. They are so great diplomats that, "This man wants Hindu-Muslim unity, so make such arrangement that this . . . they will fight continuous. And give all the food to the Pakistani, so they will starve. Let them eat coal." The Hindustan has got coal mine. "So they will suffer for industrial supply, and they will supply for food. And they will fight." British diplomats are very clever. Gandhi even offered that, "Don't divide India. You better give it to Jinnah." But this commission, this Patita Lalan, "No, no," said: "It is . . . otherwise, there will be conflagration of always fight. Let it be settled." Gandhi went to this point that, "If you think that without division India will be chaos, so you better give it to Jinnah in the hand. Don't give it to me." But they wanted division.

Indian man (1): That is a British policy.

Prabhupāda: They wanted this division.

Pradyumna: Gandhi was very much against division.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Division means that what remains India?

Pradyumna: Well on economic grounds also . . .

Prabhupāda: Formerly India was India, Burma, Ceylon. They never divided, divided. They wanted that, "Divide, divide, divide, and let this rascal have a small plot of land."

Indian man (1): No, even they made it, even all the states, they made independent.

Prabhupāda: Yes, to make their choice, "You can join either Pakistan or India."

Indian man (1): Or remain independent also.

Prabhupāda: They wanted to make nil India. The Hyderabad state was given choice. Kashmir was given choice, whichever—Hindustan or Pakistan. That is still going on, the Kashmir.

Indian man (1): Even in Orissa, small states just like Mayurbhanj and Dhenkanal also, they were independent before that time, till Sardar Patel came in and asked them to . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply divide, divide, divide. Divide and rule, and divide and break. They have done always like that.

Indian man (1): That proviso was the written rule. They made completely . . . without that they cannot do it actually. They made such a big empire, they cannot do actually without divide-and-rule policy.

Prabhupāda: Bheda, bheda, bheda policy. This is called sandhyaṁ bheda. There are four policies.

Indian man (1): That is Cāṇakya's nīti also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is bheda policy. That is going on in politics.

Indian man (1): Politics. Oi janye. America apnar ei movement temni iye . . . mane government support? (That's why. Your movement in America . . . means government support?)

Prabhupāda: Khub badha dicche. Government noy public. (They are disturbing us. Not the government but the public are supporting.)

Indian man (1): (indistinct) Accha!

Prabhupāda: Ora dekhche to eto gras kore nebe. (They are seeing that he will swallow everything.)

Indian man (1): Na ki ache? Onar to kichui nei onar ki? Segulo ki . . . (What does he have? He doesn't have anything, does he? Those are . . .)

Prabhupāda: Na oder culture ta nasta hoye yabe, tai. (No, their culture will be destroyed, that's why.)

Indian man (1) Culture ki ache? Or secular state to . . . (Where is their culture? That's a secular state . . .)

Prabhupāda: Khabardar bolben na, culture . . . amra bolchi mangsa khabe na, oder sloter industry . . . (indistinct) . . . amra bolchi mod khabe na, baro baro sob . . . (indistinct) . . . bandha hoye geche. Cigarette factory bandho hoye geche. Mane theoretically. (I warn you not to say this, culture . . . we are saying this, that is we are saying not to eat meat, their solitary industry . . . (indistinct) . . . we are saying not to drink alcohol, all the big . . . (indistinct) . . . it gets closed. Cigarette factories have been closed. Means theoretically.) If ours principles are adopted by the American people in general, as my disciples have done, then their whole industrial structure will be broken.

Indian man (1): Not actually. Don't affect so much because all are not going to be . . . even in India it is not.

Prabhupāda: This is one thing. This is one thing, that . . . no, they are taking seriously. And another thing is that if the public opinion becomes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then they will get vote and they'll capture government, because it is republic. That is another point, another. The most important point is: these boys who come to me, they forget forever their families or father, mother. No family. That is their great shock.

Indian man (2): No, what is that? That is nothing. We see . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. This is the principle, why they are opposing it. They are not these transcendental meditator, that here going and coming home, and they are doing all same, because they have no restriction. But my students, as soon as they come to this, they are not . . . no more going home. They will not touch any food, yes, because they have seen there is a . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (1): Ekhane apnar Christian missionary to ache, ei missionary, to ei Christian or procarer janye to or life . . . (There are some Christian missionaries, for the preaching of Christianity for their whole life . . .)

Prabhupāda: Na, na procarer janya na, apni. (No, no not for preaching, you.) Practically begin. Any boy who comes to me, he's lost forever to his family. In other religion there is no such thing.

Indian man (2): No, they go back again and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Go back, they do everything. They remain the same thing, simply rubberstamp. That's all. Ekhane ta noy to, rubber stamp noy. Ekhane (It's not the same here, not the rubber stamp. Here) an actual fact. So they are seeing it is dangerous. They say: "It is epidemic. Brainwash." Cheleke sarvanas kore dicche. (He is destroying our boys) . . . that once gone, this camp, Hare Kṛṣṇa camp, never return. Finished. Ekhane to compromise nei. Amar ekhane sisya hote hole age ei carte jinis svikar korte hobe, ta na hole ami yodi compromise kori tahole whole America hoye yabe . . . (indistinct Bengali) . . . (There is no compromise. To be a disciple of mine one has to follow these four principles, otherwise if I compromise with these, then the whole of America will be . . .) no compromise. Ya icche karo, ya icche khao, athaca tumi vaisnava hoye gele! (You eat whatever, you do whatever you want and still you become a vaisnava?)

Indian man (1): Kemne hobe? (How is it possible?)

Prabhupāda: Ei jinista amader diksha debar age eta promise koriye ni yodi svikar kore ye na, eta amra mene colbo tarpore nite pare. (This thing we ask them to promise that if they follow these then he can take.)

Indian man (1): Ora to secular state to . . . Christian state. Apnar to Hindu dharma pracarer Krsna Conscious . . . (They are a secular state . . . Christian state. You are preaching Hindu dharma, Kṛṣṇa Conscious . . .)

Prabhupāda: Seto porer katha. (This doesn't matter now.) Individually, family-wise, when the boy goes, he's gone forever.

Indian man: Na ekhane emni . . . koi chele yodi sanyasi hobar yay. Oder family te bhi iye hoy ye, keno sanyasi hoye . . . (No, here also . . . if someone wants to be sannyasa. Then his family also protests, "Why is he taking sannyasa?" . . .)

Prabhupāda: Ke sanyasi hocche? Oi baje katha. Sanyasi (chuckling) take keu yodi bole ye abar tomake sanyas korbo tumi satya katha ki kore bolte hoy, ki kore indrya daman korte hoy, ki kore . . . esob yodi bola yay na asbe, eisob kore ki ar pet colbe? Ke yabe? (Who is being sanyasa? That is not right. Sannyasa. (chuckling) If someone tells him that, "I will give you sannyasa and teach you how to control your senses, how to speak the truth? And how to . . . if we tell this then he will think, "Oh can I earn money by it? Who will go?")

Indian man: Eto bahut kom lokera . . . (This takes few numbers of people . . .)

Prabhupāda: Oi janye Ramkrsna mission ke . . . ora bolche ya icche karo ote kichu hoyna, yay ase na. Ya icche khao, ya icche karo. Oi janye Ramkrsna bhalo. Ar amader hole bado jhanjat. Eto jinis sob charte hobe! Baba! Hocchena, paliye yay. Eikhanei ase nam bolte caina, yei diksha ei sob korte hobe, paliye yay. Nam bolte cay na, take hoyto apnara cenen. Se bolchena. Calcutta teo baro baro sob lokera ase, yakhani ei khane asray ney ei korte hoy, paliye yay . . . (indistinct) . . . baro lok eseche? Bolle take compromise korle ke yabe? (That's why the Ramakrishna Mission . . . they are saying: "Anything you can do, there will be no problem. Anything you can eat, whatever you can do." That's why Ramakrishna is good. And in our movement it is very difficult" "Oh my God. All this I have to give up. I can't." They run away. They come here but they don't say his name, when they listen after diksha he has to follow all these, they run away. They don't want to say his name. You may know him, he is not saying his name. In Calcutta, there also, all the great people come. When they listen after taking shelter, this you need to follow—they run away . . . (indistinct) . . . great person has come? Who will compromise these?)

Indian man (1): Tahole to movement er iyei cole yabe. (Then the potency of the movement will go.)

Prabhupāda: Onekei ase . . . (indistinct) . . . sakher guru korte. Etao to ekta hoyeche ajkal kina? Guru ekta sakher, yeman kukur pose, ekta guruo pose. Ta tapasya korbar janye . . . (Many people come . . . (indistinct) . . . to make a pet guru. This is the trend nowadays right? Guru is now becoming a fashion, as people make a pet dog—just like that they make a pet guru. For the austerity . . .) Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ (SB 5.5.1) Tapasya na korle ki kore hobe? Tapasya korbo na, ekta guru korlam . . . (indistinct) . . . ar guru yodi magic-tagic dekhate pare tahole khub baro guru hoyeche. (What will happen without austerity? I don't do austerity, I just keep a spiritual master . . . (indistinct) . . . and if the spiritual master can show magic, then he is a great spiritual master.)

Indian man (1): Sai Baba ache. (Sai Baba is there.)

Prabhupāda: Na, onekei ache. Magic dekhate parlei sob baro holo. Noile sob choto. (No, there are many like this. If he can show magic then he is superior, otherwise he is insignificant.) Hari-śauri!

Indian man (1): American government ki Hindu dharmer prati ki kono iye ache . . . (Does the American government have anything towards Hindu dharma . . .)

Prabhupāda: Na dharmer kichu korte pare na ain samet . . . public kore. Government bhetar theke kichu . . . (indistinct) . . . jor kore gunda lagiye dhore niye yabe bari theke, eta colchilo, eta ekhon government . . . mane court theke diyeche na maa, bap parbe. (No, they can't do anything because of the law . . . public does. Government supported from the inside . . . (indistinct) . . . they were forcefully kidnapped from home by the criminal, this is what was going on, but now the government . . . means order comes from court that parents can.)

Indian man (1): Apnar oi . . . porechilam oi . . . (indistinct) . . . ye . . . (Your . . . I read that . . . (indistinct) . . . that . . .)

Prabhupāda: Esob korche. Ora ektu khanik, sei amader Bangladeshe bole 'Cap porle bap bole', ei khan ei movement er ektu cap porche sei janye bap bolche . . . (indistinct) . . . age mone korechilo sob, age sob bokar lok kadin por sob boke boke cole yabe. 'Tumi Bhagavan ami Bhagavan, Bhagavan kothay khujhcho? Rastay rastay Bhagavan ghurche', eisob bole ay r cole yay. Era o ei kan diye sone oi kan diye beriye yay. (They are doing all these things. They just say in Bangladesh that, "If there is pressure, even the father will say." This movement is creating pressure here, that's why even the father is saying . . . (indistinct) . . . for the first time they thought that, these people may come and start talking and then move on so they will also do the same: "You are God, I am God, so where are you looking for God? God is walking on the street." They say things like this and move on. They also listen in one ear and pass through the other ear.) (break) Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).

Indian man (1): But without that, it is just like Hindu questions.

Prabhupāda: They go to other temples also.

Indian man (1): Many.

Prabhupāda: But pure Vaiṣṇava, they worship only Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (1): That's all right.

Prabhupāda: But the Hindu dharma, they worship anyone—Gaṇeśa, Devī, and Lord Śiva and Sūrya. At least Śaṅkarācārya limited within these five. Now their descendants, they say: "If you worship stool, that is also God." They say like that. You know that? Eh?

Indian man (1): Na, ora to ebhi Gitare . . . (No they are this of the Gita . . .)

Pradyumna: Yeah, I've heard that.

Prabhupāda: They have gone so down, that "Even with your faith if you worship stool, that is God realization."

Indian man (1): Apnar to ei ache . . . apnar ye Prahlad ye . . . iye korlen . . . apnar iye kham . . . khambate Bhagavan achen, Visnu achen . . . oi to khambar theke to Visnu . . . (There is a . . . about Prahlada that . . . he does . . . from the pillar . . . God is present there also in the pillar, Visnu is there . . . Visnu comes from the pillar . . .)

Prabhupāda: Prahlad Maharaj age hon to, tarpor khambay dekhbe . . . (At first you become Prahlada Maharaja, then you go to see in the pillar . . .) Just become Prahlāda Mahārāja. Just go, persecution like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Then you talk of. You are not Prahlāda Mahārāja. You are ordinary person. Your business is mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Kṛṣṇa never said, "He Prahlāda Mahārāja, God kambha(?), so you also worship kambha." Never said, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekam. That is Gītā.

Indian man (1): That's right, but Kṛṣṇa . . .

Prabhupāda: But Prahlāda Mahārāja never worshiped kambha.

Indian man (1): No, never.

Prabhupāda: But he knew that Kṛṣṇa is everywhere. So that vision is possible by Kṛṣṇa . . . Prahlāda Mahārāja, not by you or me.

Indian man (1): No, that is, mean . . . Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: We cannot bring Prahlāda Mahārāja in ordinary things.

Indian man (1): No, that's true. That theory is: Kṛṣṇa is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja underwent so much persecution. He was never disturbed, because he was confident that, "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection. Never mind." That is another position. Mahā-bhāgavata. We are kaniṣṭha-adhikārīs. We have to worship Deity.

arcāyām eva haraye

pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate

na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu

sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ

(SB 11.2.47)

We are in the prākṛta stage. We cannot go to the stage of Prahlāda Mahārāja.

Indian man (1): No, that is very difficult. That is very, very difficult.

Prabhupāda: Not difficult, but it requires elevation. So we should not imitate.

Indian man (1): No, I mean desires . . . just like your idol worship. Idol worship is not actually fruitless or anything. It's only to imagine God in it and just to have the concentration.

Prabhupāda: No, but idol worship is . . . these atheists, they say "idol worship," but we do not say. The . . . here is Sākṣi-Gopāla. You know the story, Sākṣi-Gopāla? Two brāhmins? So he never saw that He is idol. He saw Kṛṣṇa. So he said: "Kṛṣṇa, before You this man has promised. Now he's now declining. So please come and give witness." And that is Sākṣi-Gopāla. So for a devotee, no. There is no idol.

Indian man (1): No idol. No, that idol is actually, they are planned to . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vṛndāvana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee . . . just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannātha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannātha? They come to see real Jagannātha, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say: "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure, and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see "Kṛṣṇa is here." Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw—immediately fainted. So there are two visions.

Indian man (1): Just like viśva-rūpa it is . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is forbidden: arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ (Padma Purāṇa). So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden . . . oh, what is the Jagannātha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaiṣṇavas also they're seeing "a American," "European." They are blind. They have no capacity to . . . therefore śāstra says: "Don't think like that, nārakī. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only that, "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be . . ." So similarly, this is warning, "Don't do this." Therefore śāstra is there. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate (BG 16.23): "Without śāstra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avāpno . . . "he'll never be perfect." So śāstra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection. (aside) Hmm. So that is I think scorching heat.

Hari-śauri: It's fairly hot, yes.

Prabhupāda: So better you . . . so give him little prasādam. So I am very glad to see you. We get to finish . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (1): We're very glad actually. We're very obliged and very grateful to have your darśana.

Prabhupāda: You kindly . . . you are little interested. Organize public opinion, "Why these people are doing this injustice?"

Indian man (1): No, that I'll do. (end)