770109 - Conversation A - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Conversation

770109R1-BOMBAY - January 09, 1977 - 103:58 Minutes

(Morning Darsana and Room Conversation Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends)

Girirāja: This is Mr. Sharma, the head technician at the airport, radar.

Prabhupāda: Oh. When I went to your MIT, I challenged that, "Where is that technological department where a dead man can be brought into life?" It was interesting speech. The students gathered. This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Do you know that? This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā as machine. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā.

īśvaraḥ sarva bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmāyan sarva bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

(BG 18.61)

Just like you make a tour by driving a motorcar, similarly, the jīvātmā is touring all over the universe, riding on this machine. This is machine. So . . . aiye aiye. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guest enters)

Guest: He is also one of the life members.

Prabhupāda: Very nice. Please sit down.) Aiye. We have arranged for your prasāda. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is machine. This body is machine made by the material energy, as all other machine are made by the kṣitir-āp-tejo marud-vyoma—earth, water, air, fire. These are the ingredients, any machine. Suppose it is made of iron. So iron is another form of earth. So as all other machines are made with these material elements, similarly, this body is also made with the material elements, and it is yantra. It is particularly mentioned. But this yantra is not ordinary yantra. You cannot make it. But it is yantra. It is made by somebody, and the ingredients are the material elements. So where is that technology? It is made of matter, and it is made by somebody as other machines are made with the material . . . (break) . . . and made by somebody. So where is that advancement of technology? A motorcar, when stops, technology department can repair it and again it runs. So where is that advancement of technology that when this machine stops, you run on, again repair it? This was my challenge in your institution. Can you answer this? You have got so many advancement—the nuclear energy and everything. But why you cannot give life to the machine stopped? Why?

Mr. Sharma: There's no soul in it.

Prabhupāda: That is the fact, we know. We know that is a fact, that . . . my point is that the modern age, they are very much proud of advanced technology. So where is that knowledge? And why people do not tax their brains to get this knowledge? This is very important subject matter. But where is that knowledge? And why they do not try to do it? We get information from the Supreme Personality of Godhead that this jīva, the driver . . . not driver; the passenger. We are passengers, and driver is God, and machine made by material energy, māyā . . . yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The similarity is there. Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by māyā. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan (BG 18.61). Bhrāmāyan, bhrāmāyan, the driver, the passenger or the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same—Arjuna is asking Kṛṣṇa, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta (BG 1.21): "Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). That he's also kṣetrajñā. Kṣetra is this body, and kṣetrajñā, one knows this body . . . just like I know it is my finger. I never say "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons—one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor. And the body is machine. The subjects are there. Why you do not try to understand the subject matter? Then what is your advancement? That is my challenge. Why you are so much proud of your advancement of knowledge? Where is this knowledge? Tell me. You are young man. I am giving you the challenge. Either you admit that you are not advanced or make advancement. Why you set aside this difficult subject matter and become proud by making a small machine that you are advancing? Where is your advancement? Hmm? So Mr. Bajaj, you also work for technological advancement, what do you have to say? He is Mr. Bajaj, the proprietor of the Bajaj Electricity.

Mr. Bajaj: We know each other.

Indian man (2): Mahārāja, in the context of the universe, the technological and scientific advancement is very, very insignificant. But as far as human beings are concerned, they feel that they have achieved great deal.

Prabhupāda: What? You cannot give life.

Indian man (2): Because there is a change from the past. So they feel that there is a difference. But that is at a very low level . . .

Prabhupāda: That is my point, that you are becoming so much proud of your technological, but what you have done?

Indian man (2): It is very insignificant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is my point. Why you become falsely proud that you have done so advancement that you don't care for God, don't care for the original manufacturer? That is your fault.

Indian man (2): The other day there was a doctor who had come from America for transplantation of kidney, and he had given a lecture in the Rotary Club. I was there. Now they give so much importance to the person who is able to transplant kidney from one body to the other, but how about the whole human being or the universe which has been created by God? Now, this is just a very, very insignificant thing which is already there which is just transplanted. But they feel so happy and proud.

Prabhupāda: That is my point: falsely proud.

Indian man (3): And Mahārāja, are they able to increase the life by a single moment?

Prabhupāda: They cannot.

Indian man (3): They say they have achieved so much. Are they able to increase it by even a single moment? When they say all . . . nothing is in our hand?

Prabhupāda: No. This breathing is given there, that "You must breathe so many million times. Bās, finished." Just like you wind the watch. It will run or go round so many times. As soon as the finish, then stop.

Indian man (2): Unwound, it is finished.

Prabhupāda: The energy is limited. So by the yogic process they increase because they stop breathing. Breathing is limited. Just like you have got bank balance, two hundred thousand. If you don't spend, then it remains.

Indian man (3): But you got to breathe. You can't stop breathing.

Prabhupāda: No, no, by yogic process, you can stop breathing.

Indian man (3): Stop breathing or lengthen it?

Prabhupāda: Stop breathing means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing period. By yogic process, you stop breathing, but you remain. That is mystic yoga. So similarly, you can simply increase your life by not using the breathing process. That is praṇāyāma. That is praṇāyāma. So . . . but you cannot exceed the limit. That is not possible.

Indian man: Mahārāja, Ye aatma pavitra hai, toh uske upar . . . (indistinct). (If the soul is pure then why does it become covered . . . (indistinct))

Prabhupāda: Aap jaise pavitra hai, kal aapko fever ho sakta hai, aapka fault hai. (Just like you are pure today but tomorrow you may get fever. That is your fault.) You don't keep hygienic life. Kya aapko fever reh jaata hai. Boliye? Abhi toh aap healthy hai. Phir kal kyun 105 jarr ho sakta hai. Kyun hota hai boliye? (You tell me how it is possible that today you are healthy but tomorrow you get 105 degree fever.) You infect. That is your fault. Aatma pavitra hai thik hai. (The soul is pure and good.) To live ordinarily healthy life, that is . . . but if you transgress the hygienic principle, if you transgress the law of nature, you must suffer. Similarly, we are suffering in this material world—the covering is there—because we wanted to transgress the laws of God. Kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vañcha kare. When we forget our relationship with Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa is the original master, and I am the servant," as soon as you forget this relationship, this is contamination. Immediately. Everyone is trying to become another Kṛṣṇa. This is struggle. Here in this material world you'll find everyone is trying to become very, very big—big leader, big politician, big businessman—big, big, big. But he is not big. That is the disease. He is not big, and he's trying to become big.

Indian man (3): This Khorana has developed one gene, and if it keeps growing, it will really play havoc with artificial development.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Girirāja: He says Dr. Khorana, he has made a gene.

Prabhupāda: Gene?

Indian man (2): Living cell.

Prabhupāda: What it is?

Girirāja: Yes, they take it that the hereditary qualities that a person inherits is determined by these genes. So now they're thinking that if they can control the genes, they can create their own type of human being according to their own . . .

Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying," "We shall do in future"—these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that, "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that, "I am trying to become a millionaire," but he cannot say that, "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying, I have to accept you are scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, chemical evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea. He has written one book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. So he challenged that, "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" The answer—"That I cannot say." Why he talks nonsense? He is theorizing that life is made of chemicals, but if you give the chemicals, why you cannot make life? When I was in South Africa . . . where is that? Pretoria or something?

Girirāja: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: There are many factories for chicken-killing, chicken incubator. So one of the students, worker there, I said: "Suppose this is a chicken factory. So take one egg and analyze the chemicals. There is some white substance, yellow substance; it is covered with some cell. You can do it, and put that in the incubator and get a chicken. Why don't you do that?" The rascal could not answer. "Don't talk of big, big life. Make a chicken."

Indian man (2): Just a small chicken.

Prabhupāda: And this rascal cannot do that. And still, they'll talk big, big words. What do you think? Are they not rascals? These rascals, they are talking big, big words. First of all prove. Make one egg. Then talk of big, big brain. Make one egg. It is . . . everyone can see, there is some white chemicals and some yellow chemicals, and it is covered, and it . . . you analyze and combine the chemical in the same way, and put it in the incubator and get one chicken. Why? You are technologist. Say why they cannot do it. And when they cannot do it, why they talk so big, big word, mislead others and mislead himself?

Mr. Bajaj: No, they feel so proud because . . .

Prabhupāda: Foolish.

Mr. Bajaj: . . . God's creation is so huge and vast and unfathomable. If they are able to unravel even a small part of it which was not known to human beings beforehand, so they are so proud. They don't say that they can do what God can do.

Prabhupāda: No, it is known. It is known. Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7): "This life is My part and parcel." As soon as you study what is this life, you understand Kṛṣṇa, quality, what is Kṛṣṇa. So here is the hint, that Kṛṣṇa said mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ. So it is very small particle. That is also mentioned in the śāstra:

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya

satadhā kalpitasya ca

jīvo bhāgasya vijñeyaḥ

sa anantāya kalpate

(CC Madhya 19.140)

The measurement of soul is given there in the śāstra: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So everything is there. It is not matter. And that is instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Nāyaṁ śāstra . . . acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam akledyo 'śoṣya eva ca (BG 2.24): "This spiritual spark cannot be cut into pieces." Acchedyo 'yam adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned into the fire." So . . . (aside) Come on. So . . . but these rascals, they are seeing that, "The body is burnt into ashes, so everything is finished." And Kṛṣṇa says, adāhyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned." So it remains. And that transmigrates. And that small particle you have no eyes to see. You say, therefore, "Why shall I believe transmigration?" How nature's law is working so subtle way? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). But the ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. I say, rascal, not manufactured by me. Ahaṅkāra vimūḍha. Vimūḍha means a great rascal. Mūḍha means rascal, ass; and vi, viśeṣa, particularly, first-class ass, vimūḍha. Under false pride, he is thinking, "I am everything." Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti . . . (BG 3.27). "I can do anything by science, by this technology." That's all. Vimūḍhātmā, great rascals. And these great rascals, they are leading the world. Therefore people are in darkness. They have become leaders, the so-called scientists and educationists and political leaders. All set of rascals, and they have become leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are blind, and they are leading other blind men, so people are kept in darkness, and the opportunity of this human life is lost. By nature's way, by evolutionary process, we get this human form of life. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Manuṣya, arthadam. Prahlāda Mahārāja says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma (SB 7.6.1). Such life, important life, they are wasting like cats and dogs. So this is education; this is advancement. People are not given the opportunity to utilize this valuable life for understanding higher things. This is the plight of this civilization. They are growing like cats and dogs and dying like cats and dogs. And yathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), and according to his work, he has to accept another body. That is nature's law. So in this life I am very big man, but by work, karmaṇā daiva netreṇa (SB 3.31.1), by superior administration, I have to accept a body of dog. Then what is the value of your being great now? That technology is unknown, although it is stated there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So Kṛṣṇa never says that, "You'll get such and such body." Dehāntara: "You'll have to change the body." Now, suppose . . . there are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Suppose next time I become a tree. Then just see horrible position. Here is a tree. I am within this room, sitting so comfortably, and the tree is standing there. I can get that life also, karmaṇā, by my work. So this technology is unknown. And you are very much proud of advancement of knowledge. Boliye. Hmm? Am I right or wrong?

Mr. Bajaj: I don't know. I've never given very serious thought or consideration, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, these are not the subject matter for serious thought? Do you think? You are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Do you admit or not?

Mr. Bajaj: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then why you should be under the grip of material nature? And if there is way, why should you not take? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etaṁ taranti te (BG 7.14).

Mr. Bajaj: (indistinct) . . . this material covering over the soul has been present since time immemorial.

Prabhupāda: Analysis Toh hai phir aap improvement ka kyun? Yehi toh baat hai na. Jo anadi se hai ye toh chalta hi hai. (It has been there since time immemorial, that's ok. But where is the improvement?) Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So why you are trying to get better position? That should be the endeavor, that we may get better position.

Mr. Bajaj: Sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Sat-saṅga, satāṁ prasaṅgāt. The sat-saṅga . . . but we know that word only, but if we don't take advantage, then what is meaning?

Indian man (4): Execution part is more important of the sat-saṅga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, sat-saṅga means sat. Sat means which is true and not contaminated. That is sat. Oṁ tat sat. So sat-saṅga means to associate with spiritual knowledge. That is sat.

Mr. Bajaj: And execution of the discourse.

Prabhupāda: Well, saṅga means execution. When you associate with medical association or sharebrokers' association, simply go there and sit down is not your business. You have to do something. You have to do something. Sat-saṅga means that. Taj-joṣaṇād āśv apavarga-vartmani (SB 3.25.25). Sat-saṅga means you have to take the knowledge and use it for practical purpose. That is sat-saṅga. So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to give the sat-saṅga, opening centers all over the world. If people take advantage of it they'll be benefited. But if he is ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, then it is very unfortunate. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. The leaders also do not associate with sat, and they create their own imagination. Sat, oṁ tat sat. Bhagavān is the supreme sat. So they do not care for Bhagavān, so there is no sat-saṅga. Asat-saṅga.

sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa

te karaṇe lāgi more karma bandha phāṅsa

"I given up sat-saṅga, and I am trying to enjoy asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. That is Vedic injunction. "But I do not care for sat-saṅga." Sat-saṅga chāḍi. You have to take up something after giving up something. So our present position is sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa: "I have given up sat-saṅga, and I am trying to enjoy in asat. The result is I am entangled in karma bandha phāṅsa." According to karma, I am changing my body, and today I am human being and tomorrow I am a dog. And again from dog to another body, another body. This is going on.

Mr. Bajaj: Asato mā sama grad? You said, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Sad gamaya.

Mr. Bajaj: So the translation of it?

Prabhupāda: Sad means "Try to come to the transcendental platform, sat, and don't remain in this asat." Asat means which is temporary.

Mr. Bajaj: And tamasi mā jyotir gamaya.

Prabhupāda: Ah! Tamasa . . . "Don't remain in the darkness; come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that, "If I can make one table from ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table, it is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see, "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken, "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilāsa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transformed form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilāsa. So sat saṅga chāḍi kāinu asate vilāsa. So I am now bound up. So I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; but that does not mean you are self-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that, "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology that, "I am not this body; I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"—there is no such knowledge. For the temporary . . . (break) . . . temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces. And he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that, "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life"; that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "This śarīra is not . . ." Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam (BG 2.17). So many things . . . the Bhagavad-gītā is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this thing. Aapka udhar jo ashram me gaya, Bhagavad-gītā ka alachana kaha hai? (I went to your āśrama there but where is a discussion on Bhagavad-gītā?) Gandhijī, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. And the such a big āśrama, Sevagram. Where is Bhagavad-gītā ālochanā (discussion)? Boliye.

Indian man (5): Bhagavad-gītā is a way of life . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (5): And that is what has to be followed by those who believe in it.

Prabhupāda: Believe or not believe, that is another thing. But if you want to live worthy, then you have to study Bhagavad-gītā. You believe . . . just like somebody believes or not believes in dehāntara, but nature's course will go on. Young man thinks, "I'll remain young. I shall not become old man." He may believe like that, but he has to become old man. That is nature's law. So there is no question of "believe" or "not believe." If you believe, then you are benefited; if you don't believe, you go to hell. It is not the question of belief. I was speaking in South Africa in a university. So one gentleman, Arya-samāji, said . . . when I was explaining tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, so he objected, that "Why you bring Hindu belief?" And, nonsense, it is Hindu belief? It is said that kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā: one boy is becoming young man. Is this for Hindu? It is not for the Muslim? And he said "Hindu belief." Such a fool he is. He said: "It is Hindu belief." Kṛṣṇa is giving this example, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam (BG 2.13). Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. So does it mean that Hindus only from kaumāra become yuvaka, and from yuvaka to old man, and the Muslims, they do not? It is science! You believe or not believe. If you don't take the fact, then your life is missing. What is the question? Two plus two equal to four—it is not Hindu calculation, Muslim calculation or Christian calculation. You cannot say that, "No, according to our Muslim calculation, two plus two equal to five." Two plus two is always four, either for a Hindu or Muslim or Christian. So whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gītā, that is for understanding of the human society. Why do you take "It is Hindu belief. It is Indian belief"? It is science. That is our misfortune, that a science we are accepting as a kind of belief, faith. And that we are neglecting. That is our misfortune.

Indian man (4): We are the victims of the British Empire who ruled us.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. You are victims of yourself. Why . . .? British is not here now.

Indian man (4): We are indoctrined.

Prabhupāda: British is not here now.

Indian man (4): No, they have indoctrined such a philosophy.

Mr. Bajaj: But what was there before British came? This is human weakness of our own.

Prabhupāda: It is . . . you . . . you have been taught that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like that. Kūpa-maṇḍuka-nyāya (Nyāya-śāstra). Kūpa-maṇḍa, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh, I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean may be . . . this well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on—ten." These rascals are thinking like that—avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11)—that "Kṛṣṇa may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise—ten feet." This is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7): "I am the Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on. Aham ādir hi devānām (BG 10.2). They won't believe that. And still they'll declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." They won't believe a word of Kṛṣṇa, and they'll say: "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. This is our position. In India everyone says: "I have read Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gītā and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life—you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Up to this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process, but if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then, after leaving this body, no more material body.

janma karma ca divyaṁ

me yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti . . .

(BG 4.9)

And that is success. If you simply study Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful.

Indian man: Sahaj bhav hojaye? (If we can develop simple faith in Kṛṣṇa . . .)

Prabhupāda: Yes, sahaja. This is sahaja. You are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. sahaja, sahaja means you are born along with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is neither born, neither you are born. sahaja, this word, means saha-ja, "Along with born." So you are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. When I was born, the finger was also born. This is saha-ja. The finger was not separately born. When I was born, the finger was born. So similarly, so long God is there, I am also there. So God is eternal; I am also eternal. You understand this? Then why you are changing bodies? And that is knowledge.

Indian man (5): No, why do we at all enter into this circle?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You want to be a separate Kṛṣṇa. That is your ambition.

Indian man (5): Initial thing is that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is initial. A servant, big man's servant, if he . . . that is natural that, "If I would have become the master." So a servant, if he wants to become the master, that is artificial. A servant remains a servant—he is happy. And as soon as he tries artificially to become the master, that is the beginning of distress. So we are eternal servant of God. As soon as we try to become God, that is the beginning of our suffering.

Indian man (2): Mokṣa ka iccha . . . (indistinct). (Since we don't have a desire for salvation . . . (indistinct))

Prabhupāda: Mokṣa ka jarurat hota hai jab aap phas gaya. tabhi Mokṣa. Wo phasne ka karan hum bolte hai. Phasne ka pehle. Jab phas jaate hai, tab Mokṣa ka baat ata hai. (The question of salvation arises after we become entangled. But I am explaining the reason for entanglement, how it started.) The starting is there. Icchā-dveṣa-samutthena sarge yānti parantapa (BG 7.27). Wo jab iccha kiya na, hum kaise Kṛṣṇa hota hai, bas maya me phas gaya. (As soon as we desired to become another Kṛṣṇa, we got trapped in māyā.) Kṛṣṇa bhūliyā jīva bhoga vāñchā kare, pāśate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare. As soon as you desire like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is māyā. That is māyā. So when you are entangled in māyā, then there is question of mukti. The mukti means muktir hitvā 'nyathā rūpaṁ svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). This is mukti. Mukti means when you are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As soon as you understand that, "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me act as serv . . ." then it is mukti. Hitva anyathā rūpam. At the present moment we are trying to act as master. So you give it down . . . up. Act as servant. Then you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicareṇa-bhakti-yogena ya sevate (BG 14.26). Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if you become bhakta, if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa—immediately mukti, instantly. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo (BG 18.66). You are conditioned; you are bound up on account of your sinful activities. So Kṛṣṇa says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa; it takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): after many, many births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. Why I am trying to become master?" that is jñānavān. And then he surrenders to . . . vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). That is mahātmā. It takes one second.

Mr. Bajaj: Prabhupāda, surrender, sar . . . word, if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning of surrender, and how one should do it? Basis of surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender, this is surrender, that . . . first of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that, "Kṛṣṇa is master; I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that, "Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). So now I have surrendered, I have no more fear. Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." To believe firmly, "Kṛṣṇa is all powerful. Kṛṣṇa is my master. He is not a fakir, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Kṛṣṇa is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then there is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that śraddhā śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). This is śraddhā. śraddhā is the beginning. That śraddhā means when you firmly believe in Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya.When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you will remain where you are. This is firm belief, "Kṛṣṇa says that He will give me protection, so let me surrender. I have surrendered to māyā—I have not become happy—so why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my senses. So why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? This is intelligent. Everyone is acting under senses, order of the senses. Kāmādinām kathidhā na kathidā palitā durni-deśaḥ (CC Madhya 22.16). Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are . . . I am servant of the senses. My position is twofold: either I become the servant of the senses or I become servant of Kṛṣṇa. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it.

Indian man (2): How to run away from the senses, master of the senses? I, being a servant of the senses . . . (indistinct) . . . master of the senses. How to run away from the senses?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvāmī. That is svāmī, gosvāmī. Svāmī means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svāmī.

Indian man (2): How to convert the position?

Prabhupāda: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Kṛṣṇa." Then everything is there. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ tataḥ athāsaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ (CC Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. Ādau śraddhā: "Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Śraddhā-śabde viśvāsa sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). This śraddhā means when you firmly believe that, "Kṛṣṇa will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of śraddhā.

Indian man (2): Faith. Firm faith.

Prabhupāda: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean . . . anyway, ādau śraddhā. This śraddhā, to increase this śraddhā, you have to associate with sādhu. And who is sādhu? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk sādhur eva samantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu, who is simply engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. He is sādhu. Api cet sudurācāraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ (BG 9.30). If he has got other engagement, he is not sādhu. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11): "Other engagement, zero." That is sādhu. The sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). You have to associate with such sādhus who are cent percent engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅgaḥ tato bhajana-kriyā. If you mix with the sādhu, then you'll learn the activities. Sādhu-mārgānugamanam. The sādhus are rising early in the morning; they are attending maṅgala ārati, they are reading Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, then dressing the Deity and having ārati and so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriyā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana (CC Madhya 23.14). Then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act . . . where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and . . .? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swāmījī, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athāsaktiḥ niṣṭhā: "Yes, I shall stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ. Ruciḥ means taste. Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living with me? He has got taste, ruciḥ. Tato niṣṭhā tato ruciḥ, athāsaktiḥ. Āsaktih, attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Āsaktih. Tato bhāvaḥ. "Oh, I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I have to do this." These are the different stages. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ (CC Madhya 23.15). These are the different stages, kramaḥ. Kramaḥ means gradual evolution.

So you have to take that gradual evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ (BG 2.62). They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's apartment. He is . . . the gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like this and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that teeny apartment. Am I right or not?

Indian man (2): Yes, sir.

Prabhupāda: Manda-bhāgyā. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has declared, Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva. They are rotting or rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he becomes fortunate, then take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kono bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

(CC Madhya 19.151)

Indian man (2): The meaning is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: All living entities are rotting in this way, but if some of them or one of them becomes very fortunate, then by the grace of guru and Kṛṣṇa he gets this line of devotional service. It is for the most fortunate person, not ordinary.

Indian man (3): What's the difference between grace and mercy?

Prabhupāda: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy; and mercy means you ask for mercy. Kṛpa-siddha. Sādhana-siddha and kṛpa-siddha. You are trying to earn one lakh of rupees—that is sādhana. But if somebody is gracious, he can give you, "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is grace. That is kṛpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody graciously gives you, "All right, take"—there are many persons—so that is grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor. That is sādhana. Similarly, by association, by sādhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also you can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are kṛpa-siddha, they are more fortunate. Sab chiz hai. Aur humara, sab bharatiya hai, ye bharatiya culture choriye nahi, isme kuch labh nahi. Lokshani hai, ye sab achi tarah se samaj lijiye aur . . . (Everything is there and it is from India itself. The culture is also Indian. Don't give it up. There is only loss if you do so. Consider it carefully and . . .) Preach this Bhagavad-gītā as it is. People will be benefited. You will be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept Bhagavad-gītā? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries. Not by all, but the people in general. Now the . . . feeling the weight, they have now began opposing.

Mr. Bajaj: Have seen the new light.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They're opposing me very vigorously in America.

Mr. Bajaj: And that is a good sign.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our victory. When there is opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that? Eighteen lakhs or something like . . .

Girirāja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven lakhs books in one week.

Mr. Bajaj: In one week? That would be hundred thousand dollars.

Prabhupāda: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs?

Indian man (3): But mostly they are in America. Also in that number in Japan?

Prabhupāda: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking.

Indian man (4): Opposition is, Prabhupāda, natural. Because you are converting their churches into temples.

Prabhupāda: No, there are many of. First thing is that my students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication up to the point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their life. How they can give up this? And that is . . . it is a shock. Therefore they say "brainwash," that, "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many . . . not many. A few of my students, they left. They said that, "Swāmījī is denying the primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate. So I do not make any compromise: that if you want to become my student you have to give up these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that, "My son is now purified." But some of them, there are . . .

Indian man (2): They feel that you are kidnapping their children. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: And therefore they are kidnapping. And his father, mother came in Calcutta. His mother asked, "Swāmījī, please return my son." And "Take your son."

Indian man (2): Please . . .?

Prabhupāda: "Return my son." (laughter) And "Take your son." And then he was asked, and he was silent. So mother began to cry. So I promised that, "I shall send your son. He'll go. Don't bother." His father, mother came. And many father, mother come to give me thanks: "Swāmījī, it is great fortune of our country that you have come."

Indian man (3): Similar instance about a man, svāmī also, Parsee boy, who is now in Hyderabad.

Girirāja: Mahāṁsa.

Indian man (3): His mother was very . . .

Prabhupāda: Her mother said . . . in the beginning she opposed. Yes, she is happy now.

Indian man (3): She wants to meet you, Prabhupāda. Can I bring her tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Indian man (2): You are going to Kumbha-melā tomorrow?

Prabhupāda: Day after.

Indian man (2): Day after.

Prabhupāda: So our movement is genuine. Now it is up to you to help this movement. And there is no concoction. From . . . sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ (BG 4.3). As Kṛṣṇa said five thousand years ago, yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. So we are also presenting that purātanaḥ. This philosophy is not new. Purātanaḥ. So we have nothing to tax our brain to manufacture something new. So people give me credit, "Swāmījī, you have done wonderful, wonderful." I do not know magic. But I am presenting purātanaḥ, that's all; no adulteration. If there is any credit, the credit is this—yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ.

Indian man (4): Purātanaḥ and śāśvata.

Prabhupāda: Purātanaḥ means śāśvata. Yes. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ purātanaḥ. So the sun is purātanaḥ. The sun is purātanaḥ, but the shining is the same. And similarly, if we present the purātanaḥ yoga, then it is effective. Then it is effective.

Indian man (3): Swāmījī, I wanted to know the importance of Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: This is the assembly of great saintly persons. That's all.

Indian man (3): No, if we people go there at Kumbha-melā time, is it good?

Prabhupāda: Is it not good if so many saintly persons will come? The atmosphere is so nice.

Indian man (3): So many people accumulate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only . . . not people, but saintly persons.

Indian man (3): Saintly persons, of course.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have actually executed bhajana, sādhana. Brahmeti paramātmeti (SB 1.2.11). Maybe somebody is brahmavādī, somebody paramātmavādī, somebody bhaktas, but they're transcendental. They're not materialistic persons. So you get their association, sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83) Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ. The sādhu-saṅga is essential. And that is our civilization. Sādhu-saṅga.

Indian man (5): So many people come with one wish, and the whole atmosphere is charged there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, spiritual, Sādhu-saṅga ka kuch effect hoga hi. (Sādhu-saṅga will obviously have some effect.)

Indian man (2): Sādhu-saṅga, of course, is very important. Getting to take a dip in Ganges at that . . . during this period, has that got any particular significance apart from sādhu-saṅga?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is. At least your faith is increased. With faith you take a dip. Faith cure. And Ganges herself is purifying.

Indian man (2): No. Is there special significance during this period? That is all the time.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . the significance is sādhu-saṅga purification. Our Vedic principle is: whatever is enjoined in the Vedas, we should accept it without any argument. That is Vedic injunction. This example we give generally: just like śaṅkha. Śaṅkha is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic system, if you touch the bone of an animal, dead body animal, then you have to take bath immediately. But the śaṅkha is pure. Now, you cannot argue that "It is the bone of an animal. You say one place that 'Bone of animal is impure. You have to take bath, you have touched it,' and this śaṅkha is in their Deity worship? It is contradictory." But because it is stated in the Vedas, you have to accept. This is Vedic injunction. You cannot argue. There is no question of arguing. Just like cow dung is the stool of an animal. Even if we touch my own stool, I take bath. But cow dung, it is said, it is pure. If there is anywhere impure, you smear the cow dung; it will be pure. Now, you can argue that "It is stool of an animal. How it becomes pure?" This argument will not . . . so Vedic knowledge means don't argue. You have to accept it. Acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tas tarkena yojayet. Things . . . there are many things which is beyond your perception, so you have to accept the Vedic injunction. Then you are right. So if the Vedic injunction is, "In such and such moment you take a bath in the Ganges; you become purified," you take it. There is no question of argument. That is faith. But faith must be there. Vedo-praṇihito dharmaḥ. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Everything is there. (to devotees) Can you find out this verse from the Sixth Canto?

Jagadīśa: I know the verse.

Prabhupāda: Sixth Canto, First Part. Veda-praṇihito dhar . . . Yamarāja's instruction. Er, the Yamadūtas explain what is dharma, veda-praṇihito dharmaḥ. Where you found the page?

Pradyumna:

yamadūtā ūcuḥ

veda-praṇihito dharmo

hy adharmas tad-viparyayaḥ

vedo nārāyaṇaḥ sākṣāt

svayambhūr iti śuśruma

(SB 6.1.40)

Prabhupāda: What is the translation?

Pradyumna: "The Yamadūtas replied: That which is prescribed in the Vedas constitutes dharma, the religious principles, and the opposite of that is irreligion."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pradyumna: "The Vedas are directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, and are self-born. This we have heard from Yamarāja."

Prabhupāda: "This we have heard." This is authority. If you have heard from the authority, that is knowledge. If you have manufactured, that is nonsense. Iti śuśruma. You'll find Arjuna also speaking with Kṛṣṇa—iti śuśruma. And Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he is such a learned scholar. He also—iti śuś . . . that this is our knowledge: to hear and receive the knowledge from higher authority. In the ordinary way also, the students go to the college, they hear from the professor. That is knowledge. He does not go to a pān-walla to hear. One who is authorized, professor, we hear from him. Similarly, we have to get knowledge from the authority. So supreme authority is Kṛṣṇa. So hear from Him. Then it is knowledge. Otherwise, tad ajñānam yad anyathā. What is that? Tad anya . . .?

Pradyumna: Etaj jñānam iti proktam (BG 13.12).

Prabhupāda: Iti proktam and yad anyathā ajñānam: "Besides this," anyathā, "that is all ajñānam." So we can take perfect knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. But we deny, "Why shall I take?" That is our disease. The same thing, "I am also Kṛṣṇa. I can also speak like Kṛṣṇa." This is . . .

Indian man: Aham.

Prabhupāda: Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). Not only aham. Aham is good. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is good. But ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā, when he becomes rascal by false ahaṅkāra, then it is dangerous. It is dangerous. And that is going on. These dangerous leaders, by ahaṅkāra, spoiling the whole atmosphere. That is dangerous. Our preaching is . . . we say that, "Here is Kṛṣṇa speaking. He says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). So you simply think of Kṛṣṇa, and you chant His name and go to the temple, offer your obeisances. And if you can, offer something for His pūjā." Bās. Our mission is completed. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. The words are there. (break) (indistinct) . . . Koi bhi jo hai, ye sab chalta hai. Bhagavan hona aajkal toh bara sahaj hogaya . . . (indistinct). ((indistinct) . . . this is going on. Everyone . . . it is so easy to become God nowadays.) Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27).

Girirāja: About fifteen more minutes.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? So I can go and take my massage now. Toh aap log sab prasad paake jaiyye. Hum thoda snan karne . . . (You can kindly proceed for taking prasādam while I go for taking my bath.)

Indian man: Wardha me jo charcha hua tha wo sab kitaab uske band hogaya. (There is a book being written upon the discussion that took place in Wardha.)

Prabhupāda: Baithiye na, prasad paake jaiyye. (Please sit. Take some prasādam.)

Girirāja: Actually, we could show the book movie. I don't think anyone here has seen it.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes.

Girirāja: (to guests) I don't think . . . you didn't see that. Okay I'll just get that. It's a very short movie, fifteen minutes. Very inspiring.

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . All of us felt very nice coming here today.

Prabhupāda: Hum toh chahte the jo Bhagavad-gītā ki charcha thik thik se sab ho. (I want that the discussion on Bhagavad-gītā should happen very nicely.) The real purport of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then it is successful. Aap log agar chahte hai toh, yo sab jagah me acchi tarah se Bhagavad tattva, Gītā ki charcha ho sakti hai. (If you want, nice discussion on Bhagavad-gītā can be conducted there instead of people discussing a lot of nonsense.)

Indian man: Maharaj ji, wo jo meeting rakhi thi Wardha me, usme Bhagavad-gītā ke vishay ki charcha koi nahi rakha tha, jaan bujhke rakha tha. Kyun ki wo toh aap sab log hai itne high level pe kar rahe hai uske charcha karne me wo toh bahut . . . mahatwa ka bara, lekin bahut bara vishay hai. Hum chahte ye the ki jo bare bare aise wakti hai, jo is kaam ko karte hai. Un sab logo ko kam se kam saath me laake baithe. Aur wapas me ek doosre ko pehchane, ek dusre ka kaam ko pehchaane, aur us tarah se wo kaam ko aage kis tarah se, gati me . . . (Everyone has the same purpose. Mahārāja, the meeting organised in Wardha was purposely not based on Bhagavad-gītā. We know it is important but our aim was to make all the great preachers of Bhagavad-gītā like you. To meet in one place and discuss how to progress together. Anyway, all have a common goal.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi ek nahi hai. (Everyone does not have the same goal.)

Indian man: Purpose Toh ek hi hai, tarike alag ho sakte hai. (No, the process may be different but the goal is same.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi nahi, purpose hi alag hai. Yehi toh baat hai. (The goal itself is different.)

Indian man: Jo Gītā ka prachaar karte hai, ye chahte hai toh log Gītā ki baat ko maane, phir uspe chale. (All the people who read Gītā and want to follow the instructions given it.)

Prabhupāda: Toh Gita ka baat toh yehi hai, jo Bhagavan khud kar raha hai, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. Toh kaun Krsna bhakt hota hai? Toh purpose toh alag hai, bilkul alag hai. (The instruction of Gītā is what Bhagavān speaks, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. So who is becoming devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa? The purpose is completely different.) If you take Bhagavad-gītā, the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā says this is the purpose: man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ. That . . . Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhā duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). "One who does not do that, he is sinful, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ, and fool, rascal, narādhamāḥ, lowest of the mankind." He is chastising like that. So if you have got other purpose, that means you come to this group: duṣkṛtino mūḍhā narādhamāḥ.

Indian man (2): (indistinct) . . . if you consider . . . Ramakrishna Mission.

Prabhupāda: Koi bhi . . . (indisitnct) . . . Ramkrishna math ko chor dijiye. (Anyone you take . . .(indistinct) . . . leave aside Ramakrishna Mission.)

Indian man (2): (indistinct) . . . Gorakhour aagaye hai. (Then there is that person from Gorakhpur.)

Prabhupāda: Wo toh apna apna mat sab kar sakte hai. (Everyone can do whatever they feel like.) But why do you take Bhagavad-gītā? You are free to do whatever you like. That freedom is given. Kṛṣṇa has given. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). That you have got. But when you speak of Bhagavad-gītā, then you speak what Kṛṣṇa wants.

Mr. Bajaj: You should take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You explain it but not interpret it.

Prabhupāda: There is no need of interpretation.

Indian man (2): You can explain it in the language which people can understand.

Prabhupāda: Explanation also not very much required, because the explanation is already there, and we are not so intelligent that we can explain. But we take it, the words of the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). If we see that one is not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he comes to this group: duṣkṛtina, narādhamāḥ and mūḍha. That's all. This is our conclusion. We are fools and rascal. We take the words of Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa on account of duṣkṛtina. Kṛti means he's doing something meritorious—but for bad purpose, duṣkṛtina. He is taxing his brain to do something, but against the will of Bhagavad-gītā. That is called duṣkṛtina. The purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God. But if you are deviating them to become atheists, narādhamāḥ, then what is Bhagavad-gītā preaching? You preach Bhagavad-gītā as it is. So they take the Bhagavad-gītā for serving their purpose. Somebody was telling me that Dr. Radhakrishnan said that, "If you take Bhagavad-gītā as . . . Kṛṣṇa as God . . ." something like that, that they deny that Kṛṣṇa is God. This is Bhagavad-gītā preaching. God is speaking Himself—bhagavān uvāca. Vyasadev itna murkh tha, "Krsna uvacha" nahi bolte the. Bolta "Bhagavān uvāca", aur ye sab bare bare leader bolta hai, jo Krsna ko agar koi Bhagavan bolta hai toh thik nahi hai. Ye scholar hai. Isko humko lena hi padega, scholar bola hai. Ye sab chalta hai. (Vyāsadeva was a fool so He directly wrote "Bhagavān uvāca" instead of writing "Kṛṣṇa uvāca" and these are big scholars or leaders who deny that Kṛṣṇa is God. This is going on and we are supposed to buy that because they are scholars.) Vyāsadeva . . . who can be better scholar than Vyāsadeva? Vidvān. He is recognized vidvān. Veda-vyāsa. All ācāryas accept. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitā (SB 1.7.6). So Vyāsadeva likh raha hai. (is writing.) bhagavān uvāca. Toh hum bhagavan ka baat lenge toh koi interpretation karke ansan bakega . . . (indistinct). boliye? Sab . . . (Should we listen to what God says or should we believe in the nonsense interpretation of some person?) So cent percent, they are speaking something which is not the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā. Kuch na kuch labh nahi hoga. (Nothing will be gained out of that.) You can speak whatever you like. You have got that liberty.

Mr. Bajaj: Is it, Prabhupāda, just to satisfy their own ego that they are doing in this way?

Prabhupāda: Some reason anyābhilāṣitā. He has got other purpose, not the purpose of preaching Bhagavad-gītā. That is called anyābhilāṣa. So people are infested with anyābhilāṣa, everyone. Therefore he is living this material life. But that should be zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11). That you have to . . . that is sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). If you have got other purposes within yourself, then you'll never understand Bhagavad-gītā. This is bhakti.

anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ

jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam

ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-

śīlanaṁ bhaktir uttama

(CC Madhya 19.167)

And Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa without bhakti. And this is bhakti: anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167). So they have got full of anyābhilāṣa, jñāna-karma, so they are not bhaktas; they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They are talking nonsense. This is the position. Because they are not bhaktas—karmī, jñāni, yogī—they have got some purpose. Karmī is flatly that "We want this enjoyment." And jñānī, he says superficially that brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "The jagat is mithyā, so we don't want this jagat. But I want mukti, to become one with the Supreme." So that is also anyābhilāṣa. He does not know it. He's thinking that "I'm better than these karmīs. The karmīs have got anyābhilāṣa. So I have rejected that. Brahma-satya. I have taken to Brahman." But that is also anyābhilāṣa, because he wants to become one with the Brahman. Subtle. And yogīs, they also want mystic power, to show magic. So he also anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṇa. So none of them are fit to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā will be understood by him who is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ. But none of these karmīs, jñānis, yogīs, they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (CC Madhya 19.167). They're anyābhilāṣitā-pūrṇam. They cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā. It is not possible. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "You are My very confidential friend. I am talking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Give up all this nonsense. You simply surrender." Guhyad guhyata—what is that? Find out. Guhyatamam. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3).

Hari-śauri: Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto?

Prabhupāda: No, guhyad guhyatamam. Before saying Sarva dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66) that, "My dear Arjuna, you are My very confidential friend. I have spoken to you so many things." What is that?

Hari-śauri: Sarva-guhyatamaṁ bhūyaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-śauri: Śṛṇu me paramaṁ vacaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ.

Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti tato vakṣyāmi te hitam (BG 18.64).

Prabhupāda: "Now I am speaking to you. Hear Me now." Then He says Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Sarva-guhyatamam. "This is the confidential knowledge. And this is open to you because you are My very intimate friend. It is not to be disclosed." Others will not understand. Others will not understand. Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-śauri: Sarva-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ srnu me . . .

Prabhupāda: Paramaṁ vacaḥ. Paramam means supreme instruction. Why? Now . . .?

Hari-śauri: Iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti.

Prabhupāda: Iṣṭo 'si: "I know you are My very sincere devotee and friend." Then?

Hari-śauri: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam.

Prabhupāda: Tato vakṣyāmi te hitam. This is the confidential knowledge. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). You simply act favorably to Kṛṣṇa. Then agreed, "Yes, I shall fight." Because he understood that, "I have to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, not my whims. I was thinking of my whims that, 'They are my family members. Why shall I fight? Why You are putting me this proposal?' So on, so on, so on . . ." That . . . what is that verse? Find out that kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. There. There you'll find. Agreed. "Yes." In the beginning he disagreed. Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā tvat prasādān madhusūdana, kariṣye vacanam (BG 18.73). Naṣṭo mohaḥ. After so much instruction, if his moha is not dissipated, then what is the use? So he said naṣṭo mohaḥ. (to Hari-śauri) You could not find?

Hari-śauri: What's the first line?

Prabhupāda: Naṣṭo! Why don't you find? You. Give him. He'll find. Why don't you give to Pradyumna?

Hari-śauri: Naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā?

Prabhupāda: Ha!

Hari-śauri:

naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā

tvat-prasādān mayācyuta

sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ

kariṣye vacanaṁ tava

(BG 18.73)

Prabhupāda: That's it. Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ. Kariṣye vacanam. This is liberation: "Now I am fixed up," sthito 'smi, "all doubts gone." This is real study of Bhagavad-gītā. And promises, kariṣye vacanam: "All right, I shall fight. I shall kill Bhiṣmadeva. Never mind he's my grandfather. No question of nonviolence. I shall commit violence." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because naṣṭo mohaḥ. "It was my mohaḥ, I was thinking in that way, that 'He's my grandfather. He's my brother. He's my nephew.' These are all nonsense. I have to satisfy You." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). That is ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānu-śīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti means to act to satisfy to Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakti. Without any argument, what Kṛṣṇa says, that's all right.

Indian man (4): Unconditional.

Prabhupāda: Unconditional. That is surrender. If we read Bhagavad-gītā in that way, then sthito 'smi, then sthita prajñā. And if you make cut short . . . Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14): "Keśava, whatever You have said, I accept it in total." That is surrender. No cut short.

Indian man (4): Fulfills all requirements, mental requirements.

Prabhupāda: I'll request Bajajī. You are, yourself, your wife and your sister, and our Śrīman Nārāyaṇajī, all, you are all very intelligent. You take this Bhagavad-gītā preaching seriously. That is my request. Not cut short.

Indian man (4): No, no. I'm not interested in . . .

Prabhupāda: Boliye? Thik lagti hai ki nahi? (So what do you say? Is it all right?) No cut short. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14). What is that verse?

Hari-śauri: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava.

Prabhupāda: Ah. "Whatever You are saying," yan māṁ vadasi keśava, "I accept them." No cut short. No mutilation. Then?

Hari-śauri: Na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ.

Prabhupāda: "Your personality is not understood even by the demigods, what to speak of ordinary men." Then?

Hari-śauri: Vidur devā na dānavāḥ.

Prabhupāda: What the devā? The demigods do not, what to speak of the demons, dānavān. Then? Next verse?

Hari-śauri:

svayam evātmanātmānaṁ

vettha tvaṁ puruṣottama

bhūta-bhāvana bhūteśa

deva-deva jagat-pate

(BG 10.15)

Prabhupāda: So, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram (BG 10.12). So sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14). If we accept sarvam etad ṛtam, as it is, then we be benefited, and if we do not accept in that way, then it is naṣṭaḥ. Sa kāleneha mahatā yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. Then it is being spoiled. And what benefit you will get with spoiled things? As soon as you interpret, it is spoiled, immediately spoiled. So what benefit will be derived from the spoiled things? And that is being done. Don't believe in Kṛṣṇa, don't believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, and if I am preaching Bhagavad-gītā, what is the benefit? It is spoiled. So if you distribute some spoiled food, it will increase food poison. That is going on. Instead of taking benefit from a first-class food, if you distribute a spoiled, then there will be food poisoning. That is being done. In India every home knows Bhagavad-gītā. And because it is spoiled now, there will be food poisoning. They are denying the existence of God. God is speaking—Bhagavān uvāca—and they are now . . . don't . . . they are not believing in the existence of God. "God? Where is God? Science." This is going on. If we speak of God, then we are primitive. And up-to-date? "I am God, you are God." This is up-to-date. And if we say: "Now, God is Kṛṣṇa. You worship Him. You become devotee," this is primitive. And these Americans, although they are up-to-date, they have accepted it, my word. I presented them that Kṛṣṇa is God, they have accepted. This is their qualification.

Indian man (3): Supreme Lord.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have told them that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and they have accepted. This is my magic, and this is their magic. That's all. You ask them if I did any magic with them.

Indian man (3): This is magic itself. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, it is magic. It is magic undoubtedly. But I never created any gold or some other . . . and neither I do know it, how to do it, although there is no scarcity of gold in my pocket. I started this business with forty rupees. (pause) So I'll go to take massage. Thank you very much. Baithiye sab prasāda paiyye. (Please be seated . . . prasāda.) Show. Show the film. You are going to show?

Girirāja: Haridāsa took the projector, so I don't know when it's coming.

Prabhupāda: Why he has? (break) (end)