720801 - Lecture BG 02.11 - Glasgow

Lectures by Date, 1972

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

720801BG-GLASGOW - August 01, 1972 - 96:26 Minutes

(kīrtana)

Prabhupāda: (leads prema-dhvani)

Devotees: All glories to Śrī Guru and Gauranga. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (devotees offer obeisances)

Prabhupāda: Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase.

Pradyumna:

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

(BG 2.11)

Prabhupāda: Once again. (Pradyumna chants verse again) Translation.

Pradyumna: Translation: "The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead."

Prabhupāda: "The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living or the dead."

The Kṛṣṇa philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is to teach people to understand what is the constitutional position of the living entity. Here it is said that one who is learned, he does not lament either for the living or for the dead body.

(aside) They should be removed from the front page. They should be removed; they should go backwards. (pause)

The present civilization is based on the bodily concept of life: "I am this body." "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am black," "I am white," and so on. The whole civilization is going on on this bodily concept of life. Although there is advancement of learning, many universities and educational institution, but nowhere this subject matter is discussed or taught, "What I am." Rather, they're still more misled by giving them education that "You are born in this land. You must feel for your nation, you must act for your nation," or the so-called nationality is taught. But nobody is taught actually what he is.

The same position was for Arjuna, Arjuna in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. There was a fight. That is the history of greater India, Mahābhārata. It is called Mahābhārata. This Bhagavad-gītā is part of Mahābhārata. Mahābhārata means greater India or greater planet. So in that history of greater India there is a . . . there was a fight between two cousin-brothers, the Pāṇḍavas and the Kurus. The Pāṇḍavas and Kurus, they belonged to the same family, known as Kuru dynasty, and at that time, five thousand years ago, the Kuru dynasty was ruling all over the world.

Now, what we know as Bhārata-varṣa is a fraction only. Formerly, this planet was known as Bhārata-varṣa. Before that, from thousands of years ago, this planet was known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa. But there was a great emperor whose name was Bharata. After his name, this planet was known as Bhārata-varṣa. But gradually, in due course of time, people became disintegrated from one unit. Just like we have got experience in India, say, twenty years or twenty-five years ago, there was no Pakistan. But some way or other, there is another division, of Pakistan.

So actually, long, long years ago there was no division of this planet. The planet is one, and the king was also one, and the culture was also one. The culture was Vedic culture, and the king was one. As I told you that the Kuru dynasty kings, they ruled over the world. It was monarchy. So there was a fight between two cousin-brothers of the same family, and that is the theme of this Bhagavad-gītā.

Bhagavad-gītā was spoken in the battlefield. In the battlefield, we have got very little time. This Bhagavad-gītā was spoken when the two parties met on the battlefield. And Arjuna, after seeing the other party, that the other party, all of them belonged to his family, all family members, because it was fight between cousin-brothers, so he became compassionate. Compassionately, he said to Kṛṣṇa, "My dear Kṛṣṇa, I don't wish to fight. Let my cousin-brothers enjoy the kingdom. I cannot kill them in this fight." This is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā.

But Kṛṣṇa induced him that, "You are a Kṣatriya. It is your duty to fight. Why you are deviating from your duty?" According to Vedic system, there are four classes of men in the society. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Human society must be divided into four classes of men. Just like in our body, there are four different departments—the brain department, the hand department, the belly department and the leg department. You require all these. If the body is to be maintained, then you must maintain properly your head, your arms, your belly and leg. The cooperation.

You have heard many times the caste system of India: Brāhmin, Kṣatriya, Vaiśya, Śūdra. This is not artificial. It is natural. In any society you go, not only in India, in any other country, these four classes of men are there: intelligent class of men, administrator class of men, productive class of men and laborer class of men. You call it by different name, but there must be such division. As I told you, there are division in my own body—the brain department, the arms department, the belly department and the leg department. So all the kings, they belong to the arms department for protection of the people.

So formerly, the Kṣatriyas . . . Kṣatriya means one who gives protection to the citizens from being harmed by other enemies. That is called Kṣatriya. So our point is that Kṛṣṇa informs Arjuna that, "Why you are deviating from your duty? Do you think that your brother or your uncle or your grandfather on the other side, they will be dead after fighting? No. That is not the fact." The point is that Kṛṣṇa wanted to teach Arjuna that this body is different from the person. Just like every one of us, we are different from the shirt and coat. Similarly, we living entities, soul, is different from the gross body and the subtle body. This is the philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. People do not understand it. Generally, people understand that he is this body. That is condemned in the śāstras.

yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke

sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma ijya-dhīḥ

yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij

janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ

(SB 10.84.13)

Go means cows, and khara means ass. Anyone who is living on the bodily concept of life, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke . . . the bodily concept of life is meant for the animals. The dog does not know that he's not this body, he's pure soul. But a man, if he's educated, he can understand that he's not this body, he is different from this body. How he can understand that we are different from this body? That is also a very simplified method. Here, you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Dehinaḥ . . . asmin dehe, in this body, as there is soul, dehī . . . dehī means the possessor of this body. I am not this body. If you ask me, "What . . ." Just like sometimes we ask the child, "What is this?" he will say: "It is my head." Similarly, if you ask me also, anyone, "What is this?" anyone will say: "It is my head." Nobody will say: "I head." So if you scrutinizingly analyze in all parts of the body, you'll say: "It is my head," "my hand," "my finger," "my leg," but where is "I"? "My" is spoken when there is "I." But we have no information of the "I." We have simply information of "my." That is called ignorance.

So the whole world is under this impression of taking the body as the self. Another example we can give you. Just like some of your relatives. Suppose my father has died. Now I am crying, "Oh, my father is gone. My father is gone." But if somebody says: "Why do you say your father is gone? He is lying here. Why you are crying?" "No, no, no, that is his body. That is his body. My father is gone." Therefore in our present calculation I am seeing your body, you are seeing my body; nobody is seeing the actual person. After death, he comes to sense: "Oh, it is not my father; it is my father's body." You see?

So we become intelligent after death. And while we are living, we are in ignorance. This is the modern civilization. While living . . . just like people have insurance policy to get some money. So that money is received after death, not during life. Sometimes during life also. So my point is that so long we are living, we are in ignorance. We do not know, "What is my father, what is my brother, what I am." But everyone is under the impression, "This body is my father," "This body is my child," "This body is my wife." This is called ignorance.

If you study the whole world, during living time everyone will say that, "I am Englishman," or "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." But if you ask him, "Actually are you so?" That . . . because this body is Hindu, Muslim or Christian, because by accident the body is produced in a society of Hindu, Muslim, or the body is born in a particular country, therefore we say: "I am Indian," "I am European," "I am this," "I am that." But when the body is dead, at that time we say, "No, no, the person which was within the body, that is gone. It is a different thing."

Just try to understand how much ignorant we are. We are all in ignorance. This education is wanted because people, by this ignorance, they're fighting with one another. One nation is fighting with another, one religionist is fighting with another religionist. But it is all based on ignorance. I am not this body. Therefore śāstra says, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Ātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape, this is a bag of bones and muscles, and it is manufactured by three dhātus. Dhātu means element. According to Āyurvedic system: kapha, pitta, vāyu. Material things. So therefore I am a spirit soul. I am part and parcel of God. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. This is the Vedic education.

Try to understand that you do not belong to this material world. You belong to the spiritual world. You are part and parcel of God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). In the Bhagavad-gītā God says that "All living entities are My part and parcels." Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). He's undergoing a great struggle for life under the impression, under the bodily impression that he is this body. But this kind of impression or understanding is animal civilization. Because the animals are also eating, sleeping, having sex intercourse and defending in their own way. So if we also, human being, if we are engaged with all these business, namely eating, sleeping, sex intercourse and defending, then we are not better than the animals.

The special prerogative of the human being is to understand, "What I am? I am this body or something else?" Actually, I am not this body. I have given you so many examples. I am spirit soul. But at the present moment every one of us is busy on this understanding that I am this body. Nobody is working on the understanding that he is not body, he's spirit soul. Therefore try to understand this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are trying to educate every man without any distinction. We do not . . .

Because we do not take consideration of the body. The body may be Hindu, body may be Muslim, the body may be European, body may be American, or the body may be different style. Just like you have got a dress. Now, because I am in saffron dress and you are in black coat, that does not mean we shall fight together. Why? You may have a different dress, I may have a different dress. So where is the reason for fighting?

This understanding is wanted at the present moment. Otherwise, you'll be a civilization of animals. Just like in the jungle, there are animals. There are cats, dogs, jackals, tigers, and they always fight. Therefore, if we really want śānti—śānti means peace—then we must try to understand "What I am." That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching everyone what he is actually. But his position is . . . everyone's position, not only my or yours. Everyone. Even the animals. They're also spirit spark. They're also. Kṛṣṇa claims that:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

Kṛṣṇa claims that, "I am the seed-giving father of all living entities." Actually, this is the fact. If we want to study the origin of creation, everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like the father gives the seed within the womb of the mother, and the seed grows a particular type of body, similarly, we living entities, we are all part and parcel of God, so God impregnates this material nature, and we come out in this material body under different forms. There are 8,400,000's of forms. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (Padma Purāṇa). There is a list. Everything is there.

So our present situation is that the whole civilization is going on under the wrong impression that everyone is the body. That is not a fact. Therefore, this Kṛṣṇa kīrtana, this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, it has got a special effect. It is . . . don't think this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is ordinary sound vibration. It is spiritual vibration. It is called mahā-mantra. Mahā-mantra. Just like . . . I do not know in your country whether there's snake-chanters. In India still, there are many snake-chanters . . . enchanters, I am sorry. So they chant some mantra, and a man, snake-bitten, can be revived to his consciousness. Anyone Indian present here, they know. Still, especially I have seen in Punjab, there are many snake-enchanters who know the . . . how to chant the mantras.

So if it is physically possible that a dead man . . . of course, when a man is bitten by a snake he's not dead. He becomes unconscious. He's not dead. But by this chanting of mantra, he comes to his consciousness. Therefore, it is the system in India, if a man is bitten by a snake, he's not burned, or he's not taken as dead body. He's floated in some lifeboat and given to the water. If he gets chance he may come out again to consciousness.

So similarly, we are, at the present moment, due to our ignorance, we are sleeping. We are sleeping. Therefore, to awaken us, this mantra, mahā-mantra, is required to awaken. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Just like these boys, these European boys and girls who are along with me . . . I have got about, more than three, four thousand disciples like that. They are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. And not that whimsically they are chanting. They are fully convinced. If you talk with them, they will talk very nicely on philosophy. Everything sane, as a sane man.

So how they are doing? Four years ago, they did not know what is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Perhaps they might have seen in the English dictionary the name of Kṛṣṇa as stated "a Hindu god." But actually, that is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa is the name of God. Kṛṣṇa means the all-attractive, all-good. All-attractive means He must be good; otherwise, how He can be attractive? A bad, someone who is bad, he cannot be attractive. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, this very word, means all-attractive. He has got all the good qualities, all the opulences so that He is attractive. That is the right description of, or right nomenclature of God. If God has got any name particular which is full in everything, that word is Kṛṣṇa. It is a Sanskrit word, but it indicates . . . Kṛṣṇa means God. In the śāstra it is said, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvaraḥ means controller, and paramaḥ, the supreme. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. That is the instruction of Vedic literature.

So our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not a sectarian religious movement. It is a scientific philosophical movement. Try to understand it. But the process is very simple. The process is by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare chant. We are not magician, but we ask our students, "Simply you chant this transcendental vibration," and he becomes gradually cleansed of all dirty things within the heart. This is our process. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained, He has given us the instruction, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12).

Our whole trouble in this material world is due to misunderstanding. The first misunderstanding is that, "I am this body." And actually, every one of us, we are standing on this platform, the bodily concept of life. And because the basic standing foundation is mistaken, therefore whatever we are creating, whatever we are understanding, they are all mistaken, because the basic platform is mistaken. So first of all we have to clear away this mistaken idea that I am this body." That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, cleansing the heart. I am thinking, "I am this body," but actually I am not this. So we have to cleanse this misconception, and that is very easily done by simply chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. It is practical.

So our request is that every one of you, if you kindly take our instruction to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra . . . you are not losing anything, but the gain is very much. We are not charging you anything. Just like others, if he gives some mantra, they will charge. But we are freely distributing. Everyone can take. Even the children, they can take. There are many children in our society. They chant and dance. It does not require any education. It does not require any price. Simply if you chant . . . why do you not make an experiment and see by chanting? That is our request. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

One may object, "Why shall I chant your Hindu Kṛṣṇa's name?" So we don't say that Kṛṣṇa, or God. God has got many names. That we admit. It is not . . . God is unlimited. Therefore, He must have unlimited names. But this Kṛṣṇa word is very perfect because it means all-attractive. You can discuss, "God is great." That's all right. How He's great? That is another understanding. So if you think that "Kṛṣṇa is the name of Hindu God. Why shall I chant this?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No. If you have got a name, another alternative name of God, then you chant that." Our only request is that you chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name of God, you can chant. You'll be purified. That is our propaganda.

nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis

tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ

etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi

durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

(CC Antya 20.16, Śikṣāṣṭaka 2)

Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that each and every name of God is as powerful as God. Because God is Absolute, therefore there is no difference between His name, form, pastimes. Nothing is different from God. That is absolute knowledge. Advaya-jñāna. So if you chant the holy name of God, that means you are directly in touch with God. Because the name is not different from God. Try to understand. Similarly, if you touch fire, it will act. If you do not know or know what is the quality of fire, it doesn't matter; if you touch fire, it will act. Similarly, if you actually chant the holy name of God, it will act.

The example is: just like you put a iron rod in the fire, it becomes warm, warmer, and gradually it becomes red hot. By the association of fire, the iron rod becomes fire. Iron rod is not fire, but by association with the fire, it becomes as good as fire so that when it is red hot, you touch anywhere, the iron rod will burn. Similarly, if you keep yourself always in touch with God, then gradually you become godly. You do not become God, but you become godly. And as soon as you become godly, then all your godly qualifications will come out. This is the science. Try to understand.

We are part and parcel of God, every living entity. You can study God, what is God, by studying yourself. Because I am part and . . . just like from a bag of rice, if you take a few grains of rice, you see, you can understand what quality of rice is there in the bag. Similarly, God is great, that's all right. But if we simply study ourself, then we can understand what is God. Just like you take a drop of water from the ocean, you can understand what are the chemical composition of the ocean. You can understand.

So that is called meditation: to study oneself, "What I am." If one has actually studied himself, then he can understand God also. Now take, for example, "What I am." Even you meditate upon yourself, you can understand that you are an individual person. Individual person means you have got your own opinion, I have got my own opinion. Therefore sometimes we disagree, because you are individual, I am individual. And because we are all individuals, as part and parcel of God, then God also must be individual. This is study.

As I am a person, so God is also person. God cannot be imperson. If we take God as the original father, supreme father . . . the Christian religion believes. All other religion believes. And we also believe, Bhagavad-gītā. Because Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4): "I am the original father of all living entities." So if God is father of all living entities and we all living entities, we are individual person, how God can be imperson? God is person. This is called philosophy. This is called logic.

Now here, in this world, we have got experience that we want to love somebody—anyone; even in animal kingdom. A lion also loves the cubs. The love is there. Prema. It is called prema. So therefore this loving affair is there also in God. And when we come in contact with God, our dealings will be simply on the basis of love. I love Kṛṣṇa, or God, and Kṛṣṇa loves me. This is our exchange of feelings.

So in this way, the science of God, even without reading any Vedic literature—of course, that will help you—if you have deeply studied what is God, you can understand God. Because I am a sample of God, I am minute particle. Just like the particle of gold is gold. The drop of ocean water is also salty. The ocean is also salty, you can understand. Similarly, by studying our individuality, by studying our propensity, we can understand what is God. This is one side.

And here, God personally presents Himself, Kṛṣṇa. He says, yadā yadā hi dharmas . . . (break) ". . . the saintly devotees and to kill the demons, I appear." But mind that God is absolute. Either His deliverance of the devotee or killing of the demons, they are the same thing. Because we learn from the Vedic literature that demons who are killed by the Personality of Godhead, they also go to the same salvation, liberation point. Because he is killed by God, he's touched by God.

So it is a great science. It is not a sentiment. It is based on philosophy and authorized vedic literature. So our only request is that you try to take this movement very seriously and you will be happy. For happiness, there are three things to understand. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

(BG 5.29)

You have to understand only three things, then you become peaceful. What is that? The first thing is that, "God is enjoyer, I am not enjoyer." But here, our mistake is everyone is thinking, "I am enjoyer." But actually, we are not enjoyer. For example, because I am part and parcel of God . . . just like my hand is part and parcel of my body. Suppose the hand catches one nice fruit cake, nice palatable cake. The hand cannot enjoy it. The hand picks it up and puts it in the mouth. And when the mou . . . it goes into the stomach, when the energy is created by eating that food, that is enjoyed by the hand. Not only by this hand—this hand also, the eyes also, legs also.

Similarly, we cannot enjoy anything directly. If we put everything for the enjoyment of God and then when we take, participate in that enjoyment, that is our healthy life. This is the philosophy. We don't take anything. Bhagavat-prasādam. Bhagavat-prasādam. Our philosophy is that we prepare nice foodstuff and we offer to Kṛṣṇa, and after He has eaten, then we take it. That is our philosophy. We don't take anything which is not offered to Kṛṣṇa. So we are saying God as the supreme enjoyer. We are not enjoyer. We are all subordinate.

So bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). And God is proprietor of everything. That's a fact. Now suppose such big ocean. Are you proprietor? We are claiming that I am proprietor of this land or this sea. But actually, before my birth the sea was there, the land was there, and after my death the sea will be there, the land will be there. When I become proprietor? Just like in this hall. Before we entered this hall, the hall was existing, and when we leave this hall, the hall will exist. Then when we become proprietor? If we falsely claim that sitting here for one hour or half an hour, we have become proprietor, that is false impression.

So one has to understand that we are neither proprietor nor enjoyer. Bhoktāraṁ yajña . . . God is the enjoyer, and God is the proprietor. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. And suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29), He's the best friend of everyone. He's not friend only of the human society; He's friend of the animal society. Because every living entity is God's son. How we can be otherwise treating man in some way and animal in other way? No. God is actually perfect friend of all living entities. If we simply understand these three things, then we become peaceful, immediately.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

(BG 5.29)

This is the process of śānti. You cannot establish . . . if you think that "I am the only son of God, and the animal is . . . has no soul, and let us kill," that is not a very good philosophy. Why not? What is the symptoms of possessing soul? The symptoms of possessing soul is the same four formulas—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. The animals also busy in these four things, we are also busy in these four things. Then where is the difference between animal and me?

So everything has clear conception in the philosophy of Vedic literature, especially they're summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So our only request is that you become God conscious. This is the opportunity. This human form of life is the only opportunity to understand what is God, what I am, what is my relationship with God. The animals—we cannot invite cats and dogs in this meeting. That is not possible. We have invited human being, because they can understand.

So the human being has got the prerogative, prerogative to understand. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Therefore it is called durlabha, very rarely we have got this human form of life. If we do not try to understand in this form of life, "What is God, what I am, what is our relationship," then we are committing suicide. Because after this life, as soon as I give up this body, I'll have to accept another body. And we do not know what kind of body I am going to accept. That is not in my hands. You cannot order that "Next life make me a king." That is not possible. If you are actually eligible to become a king, nature will offer you a body in the king's house. You cannot do that. Therefore, we have to work to get the next, better body. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām

(BG 9.25)

So if we have to prepare ourself in this life for the next body, why not prepare yourself for a body back to home, back to Godhead. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are teaching every man how he can prepare himself so that after leaving this body, he can go directly to God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9). Tyaktvā deham, after giving up this . . . (break) . . . we have to give up. I may not like to give up this body, but I'll have to. That is nature's law. "As sure as death." Before death we must prepare ourselves, what is next body. If we are not doing that, then we are killing ourselves, committing suicide.

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to save the human kind from being fatally injured by the wrong conception of bodily concept of life. And the simple method is by chanting the sixteen words, or if you are philosopher, if you are scientist, if you want to know everything scientifically, philosophically, we have got big, big books like this. You can either read books or simply join with us and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

Thank you very much. (pause) Yes?

Revatīnandana: Now our spiritual master has finished his lecture, if there are any questions on what he's been saying . . . don't worry about the dress and marks on the forehead; that we can answer for you later. But about what my spiritual master has been saying, if there are any questions, you can put up a hand and I'll convey the question to my spiritual master. So if you have a question, just raise your hand. Yes? (question is asked) Do we believe in reincarnation? She wants to know if we believe in reincarnation.

Prabhupāda: I don't follow. That's not question.

Revatīnandana: Hmm? This lady.

Śyāmasundara: "Do we believe in reincarnation?"

Prabhupāda: Where is the question of believing? It is a fact. It is not a question of belief. It is a fact.

Lady guest: . . . (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: (explaining question) "Unless you fully surrender to God, then there's no question of knowing that."

Prabhupāda: Yes. To go back to Godhead means you don't get this material body. So long you get this material body, you have to change. That is the material nature. Anything which is material, it has got a date of birth and it has got a date of annihilation. And in the . . . indistinct . . . there is growth, their (is) existence. So this body—not only this body; even this material world—it has got a date of creation, and it will be annihilated.

This is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). It comes into manifestation once, and again it is destroyed. This is material existence. When you go back to home, back to Godhead, you haven't got to accept this material body. Your spiritual body is already there within this material body. And in that spiritual body you shall exist along with God. That is the highest perfection of life.

Revatīnandana: Are there any other questions? Yes?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Revatīnandana: Um . . . well, it's an unusual question.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Revatīnandana: He wants to know if you believe that the Virgin Mary, who is the mother of Jesus, is the same as Pārvatī.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. We have no objection.

Revatīnandana: Yes? (indistinct question asked) He wants to know more about those who are asleep and those who are awake in our eyes. "What is a sleeper and who is awake?"

Prabhupāda: One who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious, he's sleeping.

Revatīnandana: (to guest) He said that one who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, not God conscious, he is sleeping. His real life is asleep. So being awake in the true sense is to know my relation with God. That is true life, eternal life. Yes?

Prabhupāda: The Vedic injunction is, uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varān nibodhata (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14), that "You wake up. You have got this chance of human form of body. You take advantage of it." These are the Vedic instruction. Uttiṣṭhata, "Get up, be awake." Jāgrata, "Be awakened to understand your identity." Therefore one who is not trying to understand his identity, spiritual identity, he's sleeping.

Revatīnandana: Yes? (indistinct question asked) "How can we know ourselves in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? How can we know ourselves through Kṛṣṇa consciousness?"

Prabhupāda: That you will know as they have known. These boys, these girls, they had no idea of Kṛṣṇa four years ago. Now they are fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. So if you follow their process, you'll understand what is Kṛṣṇa.

Revatīnandana: All right, we'll take one more. Yes? (indistinct question asked) Well, I couldn't quite follow you. I couldn't hear you distinctly.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you come forward? Come here.

Revatīnandana: Just very loudly and very simply state . . .

Prabhupāda: Or come here. We shall talk with you. Come here. (indistinct statement from man)

Revatīnandana: In other words, you . . . can you say that as a question? If you have a question, we can answer; otherwise, if you have a philosophy, then we can discuss it later. So what is the question? (man responds) Well, what is the contradiction? (man responds) Well, his question, it is "Why must we do something to become God when we're already God?"

Prabhupāda: You are not God, you are dog. Just the opposite. Do you know what is God?

Guest: According to you, we are all parts of God in either language.

Prabhupāda: How you are God? God is the controller. Are you controller? You are controlled. Therefore the controlled cannot be God. God means controller. Anyone who is controlled, he cannot be God. Anyone who . . . if one is controller, then He is God.

Guest: Yes, but I am also part of this controller.

Prabhupāda: Therefore you are not absolutely controller. You are both controlled and controller. That everyone is. Just like you are controller in your family, but you are controlled in the office. Similarly, everyone is dualistic: he's controller and controlled. But if you find somebody that He's only controller, not controlled, that is God.

Guest: If God is the controller and I am a part of God, then I'm a controlled part.

Prabhupāda: Yes, part of controller . . . part of God means you have got little power of controlling. But that you are not absolute controller. (man speaks—indistinct) But first of all you have to ascertain whether you are absolutely controller or you are controlled. First of all you answer this question. Are you absolutely controller?

Guest: I am not . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore nobody is absolutely controller. He's controlled by the laws of nature. How he's absolutely controller? You are controlled by death, you're controlled by birth, you're controlled by disease, you're controlled by old age. How you became controller? So therefore you are not God.

Revatīnandana: All right. (applause) So if you have further discussion, you can discuss further later. After the program, we'll be all around to talk with you. For now, any more questions, it becomes difficult to follow. If there's any more questions, we'll take them after the next . . . this chant now.

So just like my spiritual master is inviting, that if you want to further understand this philosophy, you can discuss with us, and we have got many volumes of books. But you may not be very philosophically inclined, but anyone can experience Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa consciousness just by chanting this simple mantra with the names of God: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

And now, for concluding the formal part of the program, we're going to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and invite you all to join in and experience Kṛṣṇa in the form of His name, this transcendental sound. Just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa with us, and then afterward, if there are more questions or you want to see our literatures—we have so many books here—we can do that. But for now, please, for few minutes make an experiment in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by chanting this mantra.

(kīrtana)

Prabhupāda: (prema-dhvani) Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrī Guru and Gauranga. (obeisances)

Revatīnandana: All glories to Śrī Guru and Śrī Gaurāṅga. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (loud applause) Jaya. Haribol. Hari-haribol. So my Godbrothers will bring around a little bit of fruit to you, the prasāda, full of . . . fruit offered to Kṛṣṇa, and up here at the front is a table of books and literatures, and if you have any interest in them you can come up, and there's also another book table, I think, set up in the back lobby there. We have small and large books, simple things you can read to understand more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and you can taste a little prasāda.

And for now I think we'll have a little more kīrtana. We'll just keep on chanting for a little while, and invite you to join and chant some more. And then after this chant is finished then if you have any more questions, my Godbrothers will be here. (devotee speaks aside) Oh, yes. We have a temple in Edinburgh. We haven't got one in Glasgow yet. That will be coming up, hopefully, next year.

But we have one at 14 Forrest Rd, in Greyfriars part of Edinburgh, 14 Forrest Rd. You can visit that temple any time in Edinburgh, if you happen to be visiting Edinburgh; we invite everybody to come by. Hopefully, some time next year we'll have another temple . . . a temple here in Glasgow also. I think you'll like to have a temple here.

So now we're going to have some more kīrtana, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. On your way out, stop at the book table in the front or in the back, and take some literature. And be sure you don't go before you have a little bit of fruit, prasāda offered to Kṛṣṇa.

(kīrtana) (aside) Somebody get some kartāls. Come on. Don't go. Kartāls. Svayambhūr? (kīrtana)

Please join in chanting. Everybody chant for a while. Come on, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (kīrtana) (end)