750926 - Morning Walk - Ahmedabad

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

750926MW-AHMEDABAD - September 26, 1975 - 42:34 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . position is if you can get a bungalow like this, and two cars, good wife, then life is successful. Is it not?

Kartikeya: Yes, I think.

Prabhupāda: Never mind "I am going to be a dog next life."

Kartikeya: They are not knowing anything today. They continue to live as it is.

Prabhupāda: Śreyaḥ, preyaḥ, immediate. This is Western civilization. Tathā dehāntara-praptiḥ (BG 2.13). Iske liye koi parvah nahi. (For this it doesn't matter.) In the material world, even in the position of Indra, king of heaven, he has got also so many problems. Is there any temple?

Kartikeya: Yes. Śiva temple.

Prabhupāda: Newly constructed?

Kartikeya: No, it is quite old, but they go on adding small buildings for the public hall and all those. Suppose you have to have some program. They can give us a hall for marriage and for other . . .

Harikeśa: This is where we had the paṇḍāl in 1972?

Kartikeya: No, it was a little bit on the other side. It was very near to this place.

Harikeśa: Stayed in Nashik?

Kartikeya: Ah, you stayed here.

Prabhupāda: We shall go this way?

Kartikeya: You can go in the garden. (break)

Prabhupāda: He is going out of station? (break) . . . such parks as in America.

Kartikeya: No. They are going out.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . erly kept. (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . can maintain the parks. (indistinct discussion about park maintenance and manpower) (break)

Prabhupāda: This is the condition of every city. In America also this.

Brahmānanda: In New York is no good.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . is a broke, all over the world.

Prabhupāda: This is artificial living. It cannot go on very nicely. (break) . . . description of nice city in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but we don't get any information of municipality. And big, big lakes in the city.

Brahmānanda: Nice parks.

Prabhupāda: Park and lake. (break) . . . if Upendra comes, he will do?

Yaśomatīnandana: I was just thinking that he might only change visa.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He could get an extension. For every American, for three-month visa, then you apply for an extension. You can stay for maximum of six months, but no more. But then we can replace as more devotees come. Rūpānuga wrote that ten devotees are on the way from America. As more devotees come, then I can replace.

Yaśomatīnandana: I was thinking that . . . (indistinct) . . . devotees as they come to India.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Yaśomatīnandana: Upendra has come to India only for a few months, so it might take him a little while to get used to situation here. And some boys are here who are already two, three years in India. They know how to do it. And again, if he has to go in a few months . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's very difficult at the moment, Śrīla Prabhupāda. If we have that choice, then I humbly say we not open the Ahmedabad temple now because . . . at other temples, like Calcutta, which have made liabilities, and which are in a very critical situation because I haven't given them any men . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: You require one man to your selection.

Yaśomatīnandana: (indistinct) . . . stay here.

Prabhupāda: So nobody will stay. Everyone has to go. (japa) (break) The Ahmedabad people cannot maintain this park. How they will maintain their center? And you are not making good Life Members?

Yaśomatīnandana: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Yaśomatīnandana: These are only few days that they have started making . . . last time we came they made eight members in five weeks. And right now the concentration is about the festival.

Prabhupāda: Members are made after the festival.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . (indistinct)

Yaśomatīnandana: My point is this, that people are very attracted to foreigners. If there is one good foreigner, then they will be attracted.

Prabhupāda: Then why do you discriminate, this foreigner to that foreigner?

Yaśomatīnandana: I don't mind anybody. Whatever you say is all right. But I was just thinking like this because if somebody's going to come for a month, two months, then go, he might not put his heart.

Prabhupāda: That is the position of everyone. When they will go away, there is no certainty. (japa) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Idhar aiiye. Ahmedabad mein rehate hain? Kya kaam karte hain? Oh ācchā. (Come here. Are you staying in Ahmedabad? What do you do? Oh okay.) You are student? You are student? Somebody suggested some meeting here? Yesterday.

Kartikeya: No, that gentleman was there at seven o'clock.

Harikeśa: That man passed us and just kept on walking with his friends. Just when we were coming here, the same man just kept on walking. (break)

Prabhupāda: Tum padte hain? (Are you studying?) Gerau? Gerau? What is that Gerau? Gerau? You know Gerau? Naxalite?

Indian man (2): These are all important things. It is not in our concept. Even a small man, from the starvation, can stay in a hut, inside a bungalow. There the people are making delicious food. They'll starve and die. How? Because they don't give . . . (indistinct) . . . it is not because they are taught by some gurus or . . . not like that. They are themselves . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (3): Good and bad go together.

Indian man (2): These are other things.

Indian man (3): It is everywhere.

Indian man (2): But I am talking of good only. That I can talk.

Indian man (3): Satya . . . (indistinct Hindi) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . is not God?

Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa is not God.

Indian man (2): According to him. (laughter)

Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa was the greatest man ever born. He was not God.

Indian man (2): You see, he has got the principles of Ārya-samāj. Ārya-samājī. Because he is . . . "Everybody is God." That is his . . . they are brainwashed. Brainwash is there.

Prabhupāda: What is God? Let us have, understand.

Indian man (3): God has no form.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Indian man (3): Why? Because that is a principle.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Indian man (3): That's the principle.

Prabhupāda: That is your principle.

Indian man (3): He has given all the principles, and these principles they taught us . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say God has no form.

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is your principle, not others'. You cannot say that is the principle. That is your principle.

Indian man (3): But, sir, there are certain principles laid down.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (3): And He Himself also cannot break those principles.

Prabhupāda: What is this principle? You have got form, and God has no form?

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What God has done, fault?

Indian man (3): If He will take form, then He is just a . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your word.

Indian man (3): That is what we are.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your word.

Indian man (3): According to philosophy. It is not my philosophy . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your philosophy.

Indian man (3): It is not my philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Because just like you say: "God has no form," we say: "God has form." That is your philosophy.

Indian man (3): Then we have to find out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we have to discuss whether God has form or no form. That will be philosophy. That will be philosophy. If you say: "God has no form," if I say: "God has form," then I don't fol . . .

Indian man (3): God is sarva-vyāpaka. He cannot be sarva-vyāpaka if He takes form.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your thinking. You do not know what is meant by sarva-vyāpaka.

Indian man (4): Sarva-vyāpaka means everywhere

Prabhupāda: That you do not know how . . . just like the sun is sarva-vyāpaka. Is it not?

Indian man (3): What is that?

Prabhupāda: Sun, the sunshine, yes, it is . . . we call now it is day. Just hear. This is day because the sunlight is there. At night we don't say it is day. Is it not?

Indian man (3): "We" means actually . . .

Prabhupāda: Any of . . . every one of us.

Indian man (3): When we don't see, then we say that it is not there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun is not . . . sun, of course, is there, but light is not there.

Prabhupāda: Hear. The light . . . as soon as the light is there, you understand the sun is there. Is it not?

Indian man (3): Yes, sun is there. (break)

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the light is coming? From the sun. But you see the sun has form. So from the form the light is coming. So the light is sarva-vyāpaka.

Indian man (3): If it is sarva-vyāpaka . . .

Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Light is sarva-vyāpaka.

Indian man (3): But if there is some obstruction, then it cannot . . .

Prabhupāda: We have no question of obstruction. Even there is obstruction . . .

Indian man (2): Obstruction will be by you only.

Indian man (3): Not by me only. (laughter) No, not by me.

Indian man (2): What is the independence means? You can go up to Him.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Light is there. If you close your eyes there is no light. That is another thing. But light is there. Everyone understand now it is day.

Indian man (3): That light is from God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun has no . . .

Indian man (2): Let him finish.

Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"—I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyāpaka. Sarva-vyāpaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, that is . . . it has got a form. So the sarva-vyāpaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): But what is that sun?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva-vyāpaka-prakāśa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakāśa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyāpaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Coming, right. But that has no form.

Prabhupāda: Why no form? You can see.

Indian man (3): But you see the mat . . . a material.

Prabhupāda: It is a matter . . . you have no idea without matter. How you can say of spirit? You have no idea.

Indian man (3): God is not matter.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot . . .

Indian man (3): This is not a direct . . .

Prabhupāda: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Sarva-vyāpaka . . . He can be . . . you are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here—you are not sarva-vyāpaka. You are vyāpaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you.

Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your defect.

Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is . . .

Prabhupāda: Aiye, aiye, aiye. (Come, come, come.) That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence.

Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God.

Prabhupāda: Then . . . I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva-vyāpaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point.

Indian man (3): Sun is localized, but what is sun, first of all? Sun is a creation of God.

Yaśomatīnandana: He's just giving an example.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If creation of God can act like this, that it . . .

Indian man (3): Creation of God means some matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.

Indian man (3): Now, God has no matter.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You see, God . . . if creation of God can act like this, that he is localized, at the same time he is sarva-vyāpaka, and God cannot be localized and sarva-vyāpaka?

Indian man (3): How can God be localized?

Prabhupāda: Then God is under your rule.

Indian man (3): No, sir. Not under my rule. It is His rule that He . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. We can see the creation of God. It is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And God, according to him, cannot be localized. He is simply sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Why? The creator can create something that he is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka, and the creator cannot be localized and at the same time sarva-vyāpaka?

Indian man (3): Sir, if there is . . .

Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us settle this.

Indian man (2): First of all let us settle this one thing.

Prabhupāda: Settle this. I create something which has got so power that it is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And I myself, I cannot be sarva-vyāpaka. What is this logic?

Indian man (3): The sun rays are not actually . . . when there is hindrance, it cannot be on the other side.

Prabhupāda: No, hin . . . there is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing.

Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swāmījī, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group people, tell that God is formless. Some say He has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you . . .?

Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is . . . that is . . . we learn from śāstra:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattva yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

The Absolute Truth is manifested in three ways: impersonal Brahman and all-pervading Paramātmā and Personality of Godhead—brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate—but they are one and the same. This is the verdict of the śāstra. So we can understand from this example that the sun is localized. Everyone can see. At the same time, sunshine is all-pervading, and within the sun globe there is a predominating deity. He is a person. Similarly, originally God is person, and then, when He expands, all-pervasive, that is Paramātmā. And when He expands by His energy, that is Brahman. This is understanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. Now somebody, they finish their business by realizing the impersonal Brahman, and somebody finishes his business by realizing the localized Paramātmā, yogīs. Jñānīs, yogīs. And the bhaktas, they come to the real, original source of everything: Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.

Indian man (4): Swāmījī, I want to question whether the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the same type of consciousness which is experienced by the devotees as that divine consciousness. Is it a divine consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine. Kṛṣṇa means divine.

Indian man (4): So that is the same.

Prabhupāda: But foolish people thinks Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Only mūḍhas take Kṛṣṇa as ordinary man. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is always His complete spirit.

Indian man (4): We like His smiling face too much - Lord Kṛṣṇa's smiling face, always smiling. All forms of God we have seen, but His . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is always smiling because Kṛṣṇa is ānandamayo abhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is the feature of God. He is ānandamaya.

Indian man (4): But . . . (indistinct) . . . even in Mahābhārata at the time of chariot, while sitting on the chariot of Arjuna, He was always smiling. There was a lot of battle going on, but He never lost His . . .

Prabhupāda: Temper.

Indian man (4): Temper.

Indian man (5): Yes. How do you think about somebody in last few days defeated the existence of Mahābhārata itself? They say it is a . . .

Prabhupāda: Who is that man?

Indian man (4): They may, they may.

Prabhupāda: He has defeated?

Indian man (5): No, if they say that "There was nothing like Mahābhārata," you tell.

Indian man (3): They may say, but . . .

Prabhupāda: The foolish man can say anything. Vo paagal kya nahi bolta, chawal kya nahi khata. Humlog ka jo acharya hai na, Ramaujacharya, Madvacharya, nahi nahi . . . (That mad man doesn't say anything who does not eat rice. We have our ācāryas Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, no, no . . .) how he becomes more than all the ācāryas, this rascal?

Indian man (5): My question is . . .

Prabhupāda: Your question is that he has proved. What he has proved?

Indian man (5): No, no. His point of saying is that . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever he says, he is saying nonsense. That's it.

Indian man (5): No, no, the point is that it is a story to teach people the rules and regulations of war. He wrote . . . it is a hypothesis during which the people are taught the morals of the life. And no such war has actually existed. There is already . . .

Prabhupāda: That is his foolishness. He's a rascal.

Indian man (2): But we have seen a person rejecting his own father, "My father was also . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore a rascal can say like that. A rascal can say like that.

Indian man (2): Somebody said that, "No, my mother's name should come after my name, or father's name."

Prabhupāda: Mūḍha. Therefore they have been called mūḍhas. Na mām duṣkṛtino mūḍhāh prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). They have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as duṣkṛtinaḥ. First of all they are very, very sinful. They have got merit, but sinful merit, duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means meritorious, but duḥ, duṣkṛtina. So on account of their duṣkṛtinaḥ they are mūḍhas. They cannot understand what is scripture, what is God, what is Kṛṣṇa. They cannot understand. It is not possible.

Indian man (3): Yes, I at least understand what is God.

Prabhupāda: You want to save yourself.

Indian man (2): His definition is different, absolutely. According to his . . .

Prabhupāda: No, God cannot be defined differently. God is one.

Indian man (2): But can God be defined? We haven't got a definition of God. I challenge you.

Indian man (3): Keval buddhi par . . . (Only by intelligence . . .)

Indian man (2): You cannot. Intellectually, you cannot analyze things.

Prabhupāda: No, intellectual level you can. That is definition of God. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya . . . (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Parāśara Muni has given. That is God. Just like you try to understand one thing. We have got some experience that there is a rich man, but that rich man cannot say that, "I am the richest man in the world." That he cannot say. So this richness is one opulence, but you cannot find anyone who can say that, "I am the richest man." That is not possible. But if you find somebody who can say like that, and if he proves, then he is God. Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya. That Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29): "I am the proprietor of everything." That Kṛṣṇa says. And He proved when He was present. He proved it. So therefore He is God.

Indian man (2): I say, in foreign countries, Swāmījī, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is spreading.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you cannot see?

Indian man (2): Yes, we want to know from Your Holiness . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot see? Who are they if they are not . . .

Indian man (2): Yes, yes, yes. We are very much . . . we take a pride. Actually we take a pride, you see, that Your Holiness like you have gone for America and the world and spread our message of our Indian philosophy. We are very much proud about it, though we do not give much response to your mission here or in India, because it is our home. Home is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difficulty. Tulsidas has written (Vyas gayo, Tulsi gayo, rayo Tulsi ananth. (Vyasa has gone, tulsī has gone—tulsī is immortal.) Swami Vivekananda went there, and he was honored there, and thereafter our people honored him because other people honored him.

Prabhupāda: All right. Let us go. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just . . . Tulasi leaves. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) Prasadam. (laughter) . . . man is made after the . . .

Indian man: Lekin main thoda bahut bhagavan ko janane ki prayatn kar raha hoon. (I am trying to understand a little bit about God.)

Prabhupada: Thoda bahut hai, zyada nahi thoda. (Little old, not much little.)

Indian man: Swamiji dhun to apne lagaya nahi hai woh Hare Krishna Hare Krishna. (Swamiji you have not played that tune: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupāda: Aap ka hai laga dijiye. (You have to play it.)

Indian man: Hum lagate hain, aap nahin aate hain. Voh hamara Vani workers hai, to hum kabhi kabhi dhun lagate hain. (We play it when you don't come. Those Vani workers are there, so sometimes we play the tune.)

Prabhupāda: Dhun to lagana chahiye, kirtaniya sada Hari. Niyamit smarane na kalah. Bhagwan ke naam lene ka koi niyam nahi hai. Jahan suwidha mile. (You must play the tune. Kirtaniya sada Hari. There are no regulations to chant the name of the Lord, wherever is convenient.)

Indian man: To jaisa apna form vaisa ishwar ka form go sakta hai. Apna jaisa manushya ka form hai vaisa ishwar ka form. (So like our form, God can have a form. Just like a human being's form, so is God's form.)

Prabhupāda: Bible bolta hai 'man is made after the . . . (The Bible says: "Man is made after the . . .")

Kartikeya: To phir yeh bhi bolengey ki hum ishwar hain. (Then they will also say that I am God.)

Prabhupāda: Form hone se Ishwar hai. Jaise putali banta hai to dekhne ka bada sundar, tum bhi sundar. (If there is a form, it is God. Just like how a doll is made and it is very beautiful, you are beautiful . . .)

Indian man: Putli mein life nahi hai. (There is no life in the doll.)

Prabhupāda: Life to aap mein bhi nahi hai. Abhi aapka life chala jayega bhagwan le lega, putli reh jayega.To yeh jo aap dekh rahein hain woh putli hai, life nahi dekh rahe hain. Woh to darshan hai nahi aapka. Apk jab koi apka pitaji koi aadmi mar jata hai rote hain hamara pitaji chala gaya. To koi agar tumhara pitaji leke ayega, kahan chala gaya. Tum kyon rote ho pitaji chala gaya iska matlab tum pitaji dekha hi nahin. (There is no life in you also. Now your life will go. God will take it away, you will remain a doll. So what you are seeing is only a doll, you are not seeing life. You don't have the eyes to see. Whenever anyone, some person—your father dies, you cry "My father has gone." This means you have not seen your father.)

Kartikeya: The body is not father, and what is father, what is in the father, we have never seen.

Prabhupāda: That you have not seen. You have no eyes to see.

Kartikeya: I have not seen my father. Even I have not seen myself. I see my hand. When you say: "I see my hand," I see my body, but have I seen myself?

Indian man (2): He is my friend. He is my friend Mr . . . (indistinct) . . . and he is an architect, prominent architect in Gujarat, eh?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): He's a first-class . . . but he is . . . his brain is influenced by Ārya-samāj, Ārya-samāj. (laughter) So I say Ārya-samājīs are muscular body. Bodies are muscular, so their brain is also muscular. They are not going to accept any idea except that thing which they have already there in the brain. (laughter)

Indian man (3): No, no, no. It is not that way. We want to accept everything that . . . (indistinct Hindi)

Indian man (2): Praṇām, praṇām. Sabko.praṇām. (Greetings to everyone.)

Kartikeya: Do you believe in the Vedas?

Indian man (5): Yes, we believe in Vedas.

Kartikeya: Who gave Vedas?

Indian man (3): Īśvara.

Kartikeya: Who is that?

Indian man (3): God. God.

Kartikeya: No, without a personality nobody can write. You cannot write your signature without a body.

Indian man (3): How did you get your actually words? From where? From where did you get your words?

Kartikeya: Well, I have got my body, so I can speak with my body. I cannot speak without my body.

Indian man (5): At that time He acted like a magician, that God. How can He reduce it into writing?

Prabhupāda: Actually Bhagavān, yeh jo this original Absolute Truth kya hai yeh Bhagavatam mein pehle hi vichar kiya hai (Janmādy asya yataḥ what is this? This has been described in Bhāgavatam in the beginning) (SB 1.1.1): "The Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates." Isme to aapko koi kehne ka nahi hai. (Everything is manufactured. You can't say anything about this.) Everything is manufactured, everything. Now, that original source . . .

Indian man (3): Nahi sirf main aapko bataney ka koshish . . . (No, I just wanted to tell you . . .)

Prabhupāda: Jo ishwar jahan aap bolta hai na God jahan se sab cheez aaya hai. (Whom you call God, everything is coming from Him.)

Indian man (3): There are three things: jīvātmā, Paramātmā or prakṛti. Teen anadi, teen vastu anadi hai. Pramatma hai, uska form nahi hai. (Three eternal, three things are eternal. Paramatma is there, He does not have form.) Who is not connected with anything, He is, simply is a guider. He guides.

Prabhupāda: So formless guidance kaisa hota hai ? (How is the formless guidance?)

Indian man (3): Formless guidance, īśvara hai. (He is God.)

Indian man (2): If you want a guidance, then you have to become formless.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You are talking. You are not formless. You are giving us guidance, you are talking, but you are not formless.

Indian man (3): Guidance I am not giving. It is the guidance of God. It is given by God. It is given by God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. How? No, no. If guidance cannot be given by a formless . . .

Indian man (3): I am a medium simply. The guidance is given by God. That is through Vedas.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. These are contradictory. You are talking something, you are form, and you say the original talker is formless. How it is possible?

Kartikeya: Sir, you are building building. There is no architect? How in the building there are no architects? Anything that is made must have got an architect or . . . whole universe is there . . .

Indian man (3): But none of us . . . I believe that there is God.

Kartikeya: No, no, but why don't you give a body?

Indian man (3): But why do you give Him a form, actually?

Kartikeya: Because we have got forms. He has got form.

Indian man (3): Just because you have got form, He must also have a form?

Kartikeya: Yes, because we are His reflection; we are His particles.

Indian man (3): No, no, no. We are not His particles. I say it is not . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, where you get this idea that formless can give you guidance? Where do you get this idea? Where is your experience? Your experience is as soon as there is guidance, there is a form. So how do you get this experience? Why do you talk something which is not within your experience, nobody's experience? As soon as you talk of guidance, there is form.

Indian man (3): But what is air?

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all answer this. Why do you get this idea that a guidance comes from formless? Just like this government. We do not see that the guidance coming from the sky. There is Indira Gandhi; there is minister.

Indian man (3): But these are all in the material world.

Prabhupāda: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience?

Indian man (3): So whatever we experience should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise you cannot talk. If you cannot say anything which is not within your experience, then what is the meaning of that talk?

Indian man (2): Even if there is no form, we have to create a form.

Indian man (3): But why?

Indian man (2): Just to have our faith in that form.

Indian man (3): Now, actually, when you pray God actually, do you open your eyes or do you close your eyes? What do you do?

Indian man (2): We close our eyes. We also . . .

Indian man (3): Why do you close the eyes?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't close. We are going to see God in the temple, so we don't close. You close, and therefore you cannot understand. We see in eye to eye. (laughter)

Indian man (3): So He is only in that particular place. He cannot be everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, He is everywhere. But you say: "He is everywhere, but He is not there." That is your idea. You say . . .

Indian man (3): No, no, no, sir. No, sir. He is everywhere. He is throughout.

Prabhupāda: Then why not in the temple?

Indian man (3): He is everywhere, I say. He is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Then you are in the . . . He's in temple. Then why do you say He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But who says?

Prabhupāda: You say.

Indian man (3): I don't say that. Not that only. Not that only.

Prabhupāda: If He is everywhere, why He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But not in that form.

Prabhupāda: That is your version. (laughter) That is your version.

Harikeśa: Then there is somewhere where He is not.

Indian man (3): No, no. I say . . . no, no, no. Somewhere . . . He is everywhere.

Yaśomatīnandana: He is a mūrti also.

Indian man (3): Everywhere. But He is not that mūrti. He is not that mūrti.

Prabhupāda: That is your version. But we are not so fool that we are going to see something which is not God. We are not so fool.

Indian man (3): Well, then, your opinion may be different. My opinion is quite different.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But when we go to see God in the temple, we see God, nothing else. That experience you haven't got.

Indian man (3): Mūrti, simply that mūrti? Nothing else.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is . . .

Indian man (2): The confirmation you haven't got at the present moment. Thereafter you will get a realization, afterwards. (laughter) (break) And about forty people are here all over, coming since about fifteen years or twenty years.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He entered Jagannātha temple, He immediately fainted: "Oh, here is My Lord." So it is the question of seeing.

Indian man (6): But what is our inner things? How we know it? In our classical music, actually Lord Kṛṣṇa is the main figure in all . . . in even Muslim classical music, they also pray Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). We have to create our eyes to see. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)

Indian man (7): . . . unless there is a good center. Mr. Marya said that you are going to have one here.

Prabhupāda: Kholiye na, humlog bhi saath hain. (Then you open it, we are with you.)

Indian man (8): If . . . we'll get continuous advantage of your preaching, sir.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (7): And I think that it is badly needed. (indistinct discussion between Indians) (break)

Indian man (8): That gentleman whispered in my ear that, "I am the mūḍha," he said. And I said: "Yes, you are a mūḍha." (laughter)

Prabhupāda: He confirmed it. That he is.

Indian man (8): But he said that, "I am a mūḍha. Of course, you are like that."

Prabhupāda: Then anyone. Why he is alone? Anyone.

Indian man (8): No, he claims that, "I am a mūḍha." "Yes," I said: "you are." When he questioned, I have to reply.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (8): Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)