751114 - Morning Walk - Bombay

Morning Walks by Date, 1975

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this Morning Walk

751114MW-BOMBAY - November 14, 1975 - 52:29 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . strength of śāstra we are challenging that, "You have never gone to the moon planet." Who can do so? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, "You have never gone to moon."

(aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Calcutta had called me up this morning. They are expecting about two lakhs people in Māyāpur today and tomorrow. There's a big festival, and Jayapatāka Mahārāja spoke to me also. He's going to come here next Wednesday.

Prabhupāda: Two lakhs people?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: During the next three, four-day festival . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that festival?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's . . . it happens every year at this time.

Prabhupāda: What is this time? (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali Gītār Gyān is ready and Jayapatāka Swami is taking delivery of it in the morning. (break)

Prabhupāda: Copies. (break) They could not conclude when the battle of Kurukṣetra was fought.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are speculating, though. There is one school which says it wasn't fought in Kurukṣetra.

Prabhupāda: As soon as there will be one school and other school, that means all of them are rascals. Just like the sun rises from this side. There cannot be two schools. If somebody says: "No, no. Sun rises from this side," if that is school, he's a fool. Sun rises from the eastern side. That's all. That is knowledge. If somebody says: "No, sometimes in the western side, sometimes in the northern side," is that any value? So as soon as there will be many schools, that means the conclusion is not like that.

Yaśomatīnandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the śastra, they cannot be accepted as a sādhu. So he was trying to prove that some sādhus, so-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahaṁsas.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Yaśomatīnandana: And then I . . . he said that because in the previous ages there is mention of . . . in the śāstras there is mention that there were many ṛṣis and munis who were eating meat.

Prabhupāda: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only, and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Ramakrishna Mission.

Yaśomatīnandana: They say that they would . . . these ṛṣis would kill one elephant or something like that, and they would live on him for whole year.

Prabhupāda: Where is that information? Where he got this information? You did not challenge?

Yaśomatīnandana: Well, I said that that ṛṣi and muni must be just like the ṛṣis and munis you are talking about now.

Prabhupāda: We don't find any such thing. In this way they have ruined Indian culture by misquoting, by misleading.

Yaśomatīnandana: And he admitted that Vivekānanda smoked gañja and he was eating meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: But for such a soul, he said, there is no conditioning like that. Then, when you quote any verse from Bhagavad-gītā contrary to such statement, immediately he would say, "Well, Bhagavad-gītā is not the only scripture." (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . very nicely, without any fail. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsām (SB 1.2.8). But if he does not become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where is the profit? It is simply waste of time and energy, śrama eva hi kevalam. Anything, whatever it may be, it doesn't matter. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta . . . if he knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, then he is guru. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). (break) Khaya nahi soya nahi thik hai, Kṛṣṇa consciousness bhi jante ho to batao wo agar bata sake to thik hai aur nahi to jao. (You did not eat, did not sleep,that's alright. But if you also know Kṛṣṇa Consciousness, then tell, if you can tell then that's fine then, otherwise go.)

Yaśomatīnandana: . . . people, they are nice pious people, and they have accepted some of these gymnastic people as their guru. So they say: "Oh, our gurujī is here. We have to go see our gurujī," this, that. So how should we treat to them, or how should we preach to them?

Prabhupāda: That you cannot do immediately unless he understands your philosophy. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Unless they understand that this philosophy is better than that, how he can give it up?

Yaśomatīnandana: Sometimes they even say that "You have your guru and I have my guru. It's all the same thing."

Prabhupāda: Yes, and a thief has also a guru. Then that guru is also the same thing. Chor ka bhi to guru hota hai vo guru bhi thik hai. sab guru thik hai chor ka jo guru hota hai wo bhi thik hai. (A thief also has a master, that master is also alright—all masters are okay. A thief has a master, he is also alright.) Here guru means tasmād gurum prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttaman (SB 11.3.21). Jo jivan ka charam mangal chahte hain uske liye guru chahiye, wo guru. (One who wants the ultimate goal needs a master, that master.) Nāpnuvanti mahātmānam saṁsiddhiṁ paramaṁ gataḥ.

Yaśomatīnandana: Isn't there some conditioning between the guru and śiśya that, "The guru should be like this and a śiśya should be like this"?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśomatīnandana: Not that anybody can say: "I am śiśya," and not anybody can say: "I am guru."

Prabhupāda: Saṁsara-dāvā. You are singing daily. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. One who can deliver from this entanglement of material, miserable condition of life, he is guru. That is the first definition of guru. Saṁsara-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṇa—one who has obtained this qualification—vande guroḥ śrī caraṇāra . . . he is guru.

Yaśomatīnandana: 'Cause nowadays . . .

Prabhupāda: Nowadays . . . nowadays let them talk all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. "Nowadays the sun is rising on the western side." If somebody says like that, who is going to accept it? "Nowadays." There is no question of "nowadays" and "formerly." The truth is truth always. Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is Absolute Truth. (aside) Jaya.

Yaśomatīnandana: So many yajñas and siddhis and everything going on, everywhere you see. It's so hard . . .

Prabhupāda: Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Those who are very intelligent, those whose brain clear, they, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.

ye yad dhyāyato viṣṇuṁ

tretāyāṁ yajato makhaiḥ

dvāpare paricaryāyāṁ

kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

(SB 12.3.52)

What yajñas they will perform? Not possible. Where is the yajñic brāhmaṇa? (break) "Don't talk. I am very busy." (laughter) (break) . . . greatest contribution?

Brahmānanda: "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is its authorized translations of the Vedic literature." Oh, "The greatest contribution to scholars." No. "The greatest contribution of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is that it is providing to scholars authorized translations of these Vedic literatures."

Prabhupāda: That is the remark of a very big professor.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how do we support our challenge that they have not gone to the moon?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (3): How do we support our challenge to the scientists that they have not actually gone to the moon?

Prabhupāda: First proof is that they say that there is no life. That is a foolishness. There is life. Because we find everywhere life, why not in the moon planet? And there are many others. The first challenge is this.

Devotee (3): They say that they have not seen the life, though.

Prabhupāda: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They believe in too much their eyes. Although eyes are . . . every sense is imperfect. You can see here, "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say: "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the . . . externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities?

Then why shall I assert that, "There is no living . . . I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are a rascal. And if he says that, "I cannot see," is it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?

Devotee (3): Prabhupāda? Why are the big authorities, like the government people . . .?

Prabhupāda: Nobody is authority. That is our first assertion. Nobody is authority. Therefore we have placed "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." Kṛṣṇa is only authority. All rascals. That is our first assertion—(aside) Good morning—that except Kṛṣṇa there is no authority. And one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is authority.

Devotee (3): Why are the so-called scientists trying to make the common people believe that . . .

Prabhupāda: Because they are so-called scientists. You have already explained. Why you are asking? (laughter) You have already explained, "so-called scientists." That's all. They are not scientists, they are so-called scientists.

Devotee (3): Why do they want to fool the people?

Prabhupāda: Because you are fool. Because you are fool, therefore you become befooled. We do not become befooled by their words. You are fool, you will be befooled. If you want to remain fool, then you will be befooled. And if you become intelligent, then you will not be befooled. They can befool when there are many fools. If there is no fool they cannot befool. Do you follow this?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Jaya.

Devotee (3): The scientists, they are also fools.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (3): The scientists are also fools.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mūḍha. That is our definition in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So much educated? Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā āsuraṁ-bhāvam āśritāḥ. Their knowledge has no value. The māyā has taken away everything.

Indian man (4): Hare Kṛṣṇa batao. (Say Hare Kṛṣṇa.)

Prabhupāda: Māyayāpahṛta jñānā. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (4): Honor . . .

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Kṛṣṇa . . . Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then māyayāpahṛta-jñānā—he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If he says: "No," then he is a fool. That's all. This is the test. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, do you agree?

Ambarīṣa: Yes. It's a good test.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our that stone is Kṛṣṇa. If anyone knows Kṛṣṇa, then it is gold. (laughter)

Devotees: Haribol! Jaya Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is bogus. (laughter)

Indian man (5): It is very good.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers' sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees.

Indian man (6): Abhi bhi sona market vaisa hi hai. usko ABCD nahi ata hai vo bol deta hai isme 80% hai 25% kum bolta hai aur utna paisa le jao pakad ke bol deta hai isme 90 % hai. (Now the gold market is like that. He does not know ABCD and he says there is 80 percent in this and 25 percent less and take an equal amount of money—he holds it and says it has 90 percent.)

Prabhupāda: Yaad hai ratna parki. (You remember ratna parki.) This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That's all. One knowledge makes him rich. Remember gold merchant,

vyavasāyātmikā buddhir

ekeha kuru-nandana

bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca

buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām

(BG 2.41)

Avyavasāyinām bahu-śākha. And vyavasāyayinām—one. From practical point of view, from business point of view also, I started this Kṛṣṇa conscious business with forty rupees. Now we have forty crores. Who has got such business success? (laughter) Bring anyone. Within ten years. And here is Ambarīṣa Mahārāja. He is ready to give us any money, any amount of money. Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, yes. Whole Ford Company. (laughter) So who has got this business? (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. I think there is no such history in the world, to begin business with forty rupees, and within ten years it becomes forty crores. One cannot imagine even.

Yaśomatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yehi to Nair samjha tha yeh sala bheek mangane wala hai ye kahan se chauda lakh le aayega jo hai uske paas le lo bus khatam karo koi believe nahi karta hai Nair ko bola tha jo abhi hamare paas 2-4 laakh hai wohi dega baki ashray yeh kaun manega yeh sala bheek mangane aaya hai chauda lakh kahan se dega bara lakh kahan se layega to jo do-char lakh hai wo le lo bus bake khatam Business me sabhi sochta hai. (This is what Nair had understood—this fool is a beggar. From where will he bring 14 lakh? Whatever he has, take it—that's all, finished. No one believes I told Nair, "Whatever 2 to 4 lakh I have with me—I will give the remaining shelter. Who will believe this fool had come to beg? From where will he give 14 lakhs? From where will he bring 12 lakhs? So whatever 2 to 4 lakh he has taken—that and the remaining, finish. In business everyone thinks like this.) "You are servant, and wherefrom you will get twelve lakhs of rupees within three years? You cannot get it." Busy. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) Learn from dog one lesson—they are very faithful to the master. Very faithful. (break) . . . do not see anything now in the sky. Does it mean it is vacant? So what is the value of your seeing?

Brahmānanda: There's a philosophy that says that if a tree falls down in a forest and I am not there to see it, then it hasn't happened.

Prabhupāda: There is philosophy?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is that logic? Hmm?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Want to see everything with their own eyes.

Girirāja: They think the existence of the tree is dependent on their sense perception.

Prabhupāda: Gladstone or what . . . that poet? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." Therefore there is no flower? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." This is foolish philosophy. Now this plane is going. After half an hour it will not be seen. Does it mean it is finished? (laughter) There is no more?

Indian man (7): But also in the sky we can see something. I can see many things. I can see something. It is not vacant space. Only thing, I don't know what it is.

Prabhupāda: Then you cannot see the stars. Can you see the stars now?

Indian man (7): No.

Prabhupāda: Then can you say there is no star? Then? That means what you cannot see, that is not final. Therefore our Vedic instruction is śāstra cakṣusāt—you should see through the śastra, not your these useless eyes. These are useless. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to know perfectly, one should go to the guru. And Bhagavad-gītā has said,

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

(BG 4.34)

"One who has seen, go there and learn it." That is the injunction. Don't try to see yourself. That is foolishness. This very word is used, tattva-darśinaḥ, "one who has seen." You have to go there and see through his eyes, through his instructions. That is real seeing.

Devotee (5): They're paying you respects, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Oh. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Yaśomatīnandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, "Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you."

Prabhupāda: That is sane man.

Indian man (8): Kisi ke paas mein jawab dene ka hai. (Anyone has any answer to give?) (break)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, hai. (No, no)

Dr. Patel: Satyanash kar diya hamlog ka desh ka apna-apna sab . . . (They have completely ruined our country, their own . . .) why I come so early and all that thing. Shall I say, sir?

Prabhupāda: Doosra desh mein to maanta hai. Yeh to maanta hi nahi hai, Here is some. (In another country, they accept it. Here are some people that don't believe.) Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: Wo pandit log ko gay ka poonch kidar hai maloom nahi hai woh log insabko dikha deta hai wo log believe kar leta hai. (Those scholars don't know where the cow's tail is, they show all these people and they believe it.) Why I come so early and all that thing. Shall I say, sir?

prasaṅgam ajaraṁ pāśam

ātmanaḥ kavayo viduḥ

sa eva sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ

mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam

(SB 3.25.20)

That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir.

Prabhupāda: No, you explain.

Dr. Patel: (laughs) It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata that your mind, atmanaḥ prasaṅga, the saṅga. Saṅga means attachment.

Prabhupāda: Prasaṅgam.

Dr. Patel: Prasaṅga and saṅga, the same.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Prakṛṣṭa-rupena saṅga. Very tight.

Dr. Patel: Saṅga. Very tight saṅga, very tight attachment of mind is there always.

Prabhupāda: Not mind, of the soul.

Dr. Patel: Atmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are . . . there is always there, ajara, undying. "But if that attachment is made to a sādhu, that becomes mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam, that becomes opening of the door of mokṣa." So I come here to sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, another śloka is made by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He is praying to Kṛṣṇa that "As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I'll have upon You?" This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Puṁsam striya mithuni-bhavam etad. This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is praying, "When I will have the same attachment for You?" Yuvatīnāṁ yathā yunoḥ. (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . have heard something else in Gujarati. Indriya nila . . . (Gujarati) "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, (Gujarati) . . ." That is the bhakti, when you do same action for (Gujarati) God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. Kāma means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, atmendriya-tṛpti-vañcha tara nāma kāma: "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma." And kṛṣṇendriya-tṛpti-vañcha dhare prema nāma.

Dr. Patel: That is prema.

Prabhupāda: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, that is prema."

Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.

Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopī. It looks like kāma, but it is prema.

Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopīs really, they are kāma-toṣa, and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don't become gopīs because the husband hasn't got that qualities like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was above three guṇas, so they became tri-guṇātita, all gopīs. Actually they were motivated by kāma, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Kṛṣṇa, they converted themselves beyond all the three guṇas. Because the God is not within the māyā, He is above it, so anything which goes there comes above it. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . understanding Kṛṣṇa's position, if one . . . Kṛṣṇa . . .

Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rāsa-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don't understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Kṛṣṇa was just like them, and then they certify themselves with gopīs, what they would do with gopīs.

Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ, paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 9.11). Param Isliye param bhaav pehle samajhna hai phir ras-leela charcha. (That is why first you must understand the supreme feeling and then discuss rasa-lila.) Otherwise it is . . .

Dr. Patel: It is said that gopīs were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen. (break)

Prabhupāda: Eternal companion of Kṛṣṇa. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāva. The gopīs are expansion of Kṛṣṇa's ananda-cinmāyā-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvāmī, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . tucchavat. But the engagement was gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).

Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right, sir. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there, and that never goes away from anyone with God.

Prabhupāda: Wo Paraṁ dṛṣṭi, sādhu sangh se hota hai. (That supreme vision happens because of association with saintly men.)

Dr. Patel: Hmm. Because they are the agents of param.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Mokṣa-dvāra apāvṛtam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Bhakti without jñāna can be practiced. So when there is bhakti, automatically there is jñāna.

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

Without bhakti there is no jñāna. But without jñāna, bhakti can be practiced.

Devotee: Jaya. Haribol.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti nirapeksh ahituki apratihata nirapeksha bhakti mein gyan,yog, karm sab hai. (Devotion is without expectation. In devotion, without expectation, there is knowledge—yoga, duty.)

Devotee: Bhakti bina gyan ke bhi ho sakti hai. (Devotion can be done without knowledge.)

'Prabhupāda:' Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim? Yeh sab bhi mukt ho jata hai isko to gyan nahi hai. (They also become liberated—they do not have knowledge.) Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Paap yoni ka gyan kay hota hai uska to gyan hona hi nahi taki (What is the knowledge of a sinner he does not have knowledge so) Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Gyan ka arth hai vairagya agar vairagya nahi hai to gyan ka kya arth hai (The meaning of knowledge is detachment if detachment is not there then what is meaning of knowledge.)

Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong.

Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means . . . real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya. Because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.

Dr. Patel: That is because the people have atmā-buddhi and kunape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: These rascals talk of jñāna, but they keep full attachment for this material world.

Dr. Patel: The kunape tri-dhātuke.

Prabhupāda: Uska to poonch aise hi rahega chahe jitna ghee lagalo yeh baat hai seedha nahi hota hai vo gyan ka kya matlab jnan ka arth to vairagyam. (His tail will be like that—no matter how much you lubricate it. This is the fact. It will not become straight. What is the meaning of knowledge? It means detachment.) Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted—he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die—then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples said, āra nāre bāpa. Āra nāre bāpa (CB Madhya-khaṇḍa 13.225). Aaplog bhi bolta hai na bappa aur bappa nahi chahiye batao aar nahi. (You people also say bappa—no more bappa. I don't want it. Just say, no more.)

Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gītā:

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayi

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taran . . .

(BG 7.14)

This is the way. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Extremely difficult, that even man like Gautama Buddha had several times come back to see his child and son when he left his house, more than half a dozen times, come and go, come and go. Finally he closed his eyes and ran away. A man of that type. And for ordinary human beings it is very difficult.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not difficult. Therefore vānaprastha is recommended, that "Go out of home, remain in the tīrtha-sthana and again come, see your children. Again go. Then take sannyāsa.

Dr. Patel: Tapering it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Bade-bade devta log sab isi mein phase hue hain . . . Nandan kanan. (Big big demigods are caught in this . . . Nandan kanan . . .)

Dr. Patel: That is why devata-loka is not a place from where you can have a release. It is from human life that you can have moksa. Devatas cannot get it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, human . . . devatas cannot, because they have got enough of material enjoyment.

Dr. Patel: The Americans.

Prabhupāda: Just like America . . . (laughs) Americans have not even one percent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here, for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali . . .

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ

samādhau na dhigacchati

(BG 2.44)

Zyada bhog-aishwarya hone se phir bhagavan mein attraction nahi hota hai. Isliye to vairagya. (Excess of sense gratification and opulence, if one has, then there is no attraction for God. That's why detachment.) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bharata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything—young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, itna fight kiya sab kuch kiya. (Yudhisthira Maharaja, he fought and he achieved so much.) As soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. Wo jab tak goli se nahi mar diya jata hai tab tak chodega nahi. (Unless he is shot to death, he will not leave.) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Godse, he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahātmā, Kali-yūga ka mahātmā. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso (BG 9.13). Ye mahatma aur marne tak last point tak. (This is mahatma, until he dies—until his last breath) politics, politics, politics. Hamara country, hamara desh, hamara aadmi yeh mahatma hai yeh sab chalta hai. (My country, my land, my people—this is mahatma, all this goes on.) Nonviolence theory. Kṛṣṇa said: "You will die by violence. Nonviolence . . . there cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā and criticize Me, Kṛṣṇa. All right, you die." Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: But it is a narrow sight that Kṛṣṇa was a war-mongerer. Mr. Nehru, he was more. . .

Prabhupāda: Nehru is. . . what is his value?

Dr. Patel: He said, "Kṛṣṇa is the greatest war-mongerer."

Prabhupāda: Nehru and company are praised . . . that is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhag . . . śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He's animal.

Dr. Patel: I think he had not understood exactly.

Prabhupāda: What he understood?

Dr. Patel: The second adhyaya, Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: He never knew what is Gītā. He plainly . . .

Yaśomatīnandana: He was an atheist.

Prabhupāda: In America, when he went, somebody requested, "You explain something of Gītā." He said: "I do not know much about Gītā." He explained. He frankly admitted that, "I do not know." His excuse was like that. And he did not know anything. He thought, "Overnight, if I make my country like America, that is success." And he constructed a few skyscraper building, or big, big building in New Delhi, and he thought, "My country is like that." Therefore, when President Eisenhower came, he wanted to see the village. And as soon as he saw the village, the secret was out.

Dr. Patel: No, that man was a dreamer rather than a practical man. Practical man was only Sadar Patel.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break) Those who are intelligent Indians, they should combine together and present Indian culture as it is. Then the country is glorified. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . kari karo paropakara (CC Adi 9.41). This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. The whole world is in darkness. Give them some light. First of all you yourself take light; then you distribute. (japa) (break) . . . letter that, "Now you have got sva-rājya, you give up this nonsense. Preach Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise you will meet the fate of Mussolini." And actually it was done.

Yaśomatīnandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśomatīnandana: With his understanding.

Prabhupāda: Of course, one cannot preach Bhagavad-gītā unless he is empowered by Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nahe nāma pracaraṇa (CC Antya 7.11). It is not possible. (end)