660826 - Lecture BG 05.07-13 - New York

Lectures by Date, 1966

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

660826BG.NY - August 26, 1966

Prabhupāda: (aside) Raymond that light . . . (indistinct) . . . no.

yoga-yukto viśuddhātmā

vijitātmā jitendriyaḥ

sarva-bhūtātma-bhūtātmā

kurvann api na lipyate

(BG 5.7)

Detachment.

sannyāsas tu mahā-bāho

duḥkham āptum ayogataḥ

yoga-yukto munir brahma

na cireṇādhigacchati

(BG 5.6)

This verse we have been discussing, that sannyāsa, renouncement. Renouncement of this world not by artificial dress, but actually renouncement is described herein that yoga-yuktaḥ. Yoga-yuktaḥ. That means we have to stay in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then we can renounce. Otherwise it is not possible. Otherwise it is not possible. I . . . if I am to vacate this room, then I must have some other room to stay there—otherwise it is not possible for me to leave this room.

That is the nature of living entities. They want some engagement. They want some engagement. Simple negative consideration, that "I want to detach," that will not make me happy. I must have some attachment also. I detach from this place by attach myself to that place. Because I am eternal. I am eternal living entity. My symptom is eternity. Not that I detach and end myself. No. I continue to exist. So without attachment we cannot actually be detached from this material world.

So, sannyāsas tu mahā-bāho. Artificially I detach myself, renounce this world, then Kṛṣṇa says, duḥkham āptum ayogataḥ. If there is no engagement, good engagement, better engagement, then it is a cause of misery. It is a cause of misery. It is very difficult. Suppose a family man, he renounces the family connection, but if he has no better connection and better attachment, then he will feel, "Oh, I was better in my family life. I have done mistake." Kṛṣṇa says, sannyāsas tu mahā-bāho duḥkham āptum ayogataḥ. Ayogataḥ means if we have no link with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then simply detachment will be cause of misery. Duḥkham āptum. It will be a cause of misery.

Yoga-yukto munir brahma. But one who is in dovetail, one who is dovetailed with the Supreme, yoga-yukto munir brahma na cireṇādhigacchati. Brahma. Yoga-yuktaḥ. If I am dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then acireṇa. Acireṇa means very soon I shall realize myself as Brahman. I am Brahman. It is simply question of realization. By misconception, by illusion, I am thinking that I am matter, but actually I am Brahman. The whole process is to realize that "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." So this conception, Brahman conception, or realization, self-realization, is possible, yoga-yuktaḥ, if I am always dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

If I am always dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa, doing something in connection with . . . nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255).

The other day I tried to explain this verse of Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī, he has stated in two ways the attachment and detachment. He says, anāsaktasya viṣayān yathārham upayuñjataḥ. Viṣayān. The things of our enjoyment, that should be accepted, anāsaktasya, without any attachment. "I require this for maintenance of my body, therefore I accept this." This is called anāsaktasya. So, in other words, just to make the better use of a bad bargain. I am now materially encaged. So I must make the best use of this body by dovetailing myself in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-sambandhe. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe.

And another, another verse, Rūpa Gosvāmī states:

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

phalgu vairāgyaṁ kathyate

(Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.255–56)

Prāpañcikatayā buddhyā. Just like there are some philosophers, they say that this material world is false and Brahman is real. Of course, that is all right, but according to Vaiṣṇava philosophy, as we are, we say that material world is not false, but it is temporary. That's all. If you say temporary thing as false, that is not the right nomenclature. Temporary, one thing may be temporary, but that is not false.

Just like we have come here, I have come from India. I am staying in this room for the last two months, or I may stay here for some days more. So my visit . . . I am a visitor. My visit is temporary. But this temporary visit is not false. Is it false? Oh, I am sitting here, I am talking with you, I am eating, and so many things. They are all false? No. They are not false. They are not false, but temporary.

Therefore, hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ. Everything has got connection with Kṛṣṇa. That realization is required. Everything. Whatever we see here, they are only perverted reflection of the reality. That's all. This perverted reflection I have tried to explain many times. Just like if there is a tree on the bank of a lake you'll find that tree is perverted, reflected, pervertedly reflected within the water. That means the top has gone to the down and the root has come up. And in the Fifteenth Chapter it is described in that way.

So this world is a perverted reflection. And because it is reflection of the reality, therefore it appears so nicely that we take it as actual fact. That is called illusion. But if we understand that, "It is temporary. I should not be attached. It is temporary. My attachment should be to the reality, not to the unreality . . ." So reality is Kṛṣṇa. This is also reality, but temporary. So we have to get ourself from the temporary to the reality. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says that prāpañcikatayā buddhyā hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ.

Now in this material world, because this material world is manifestation of the energy of the Supreme Lord, therefore it has got a very intimate connection with the Supreme Lord. It has got connection. Because . . . just like the sunshine. The sunshine, although the sun is far away, but if . . . the sunshine has got direct connection with sun.

The sunshine is connecting me from this earth to the sun, ninety millions of miles away. Still, I have got connection with that. So similarly, this material world is the manifestation of the energy, energy of the Supreme Lord. Therefore it has got intimate relation with the Supreme Lord. That we have to understand. We should not take it, accept it, as false and reject it. No. We cannot reject it, because there is connection with Kṛṣṇa.

Now we have to utilize it properly. Because it has got connection with Kṛṣṇa, and because it is the energy of Kṛṣṇa, therefore the whole thing is that this should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. It should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. If this material world is utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then there is no trouble, there is no disturbance of peace. There is always peace and tranquillity and happiness in this world, and at the same time happiness in the next world.

If we consider . . . when I am taking my food, if I think, "Oh, this nice foodstuff is sent by Kṛṣṇa. He has kindly sent me this foodstuff," so I think of Kṛṣṇa. So that taking of foodstuff in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is yoga-yukta. That is called yoga-yukta. That is yoga. Always thinking in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is called yoga-yukta. Yoga-yukto muni. Muni. Muni means one who is thoughtful, he's called muni.

So one who is always thoughtful of Kṛṣṇa, such person, yoga-yukta, yoga-yukto munir brahma na cireṇādhigacchati: he, very soon, he becomes situated in his Brahman conception of life. And as soon as you are situated in Brahman conception of life, then immediately your effect will be brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).

You'll be joyful. Your material moroseness will go at once. At once. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati. You'll be free from all anxiety. You'll be free from all . . . and there will be no demand for your sense satisfaction. You'll feel yourself full. "Oh, I am full. I have nothing, nothing to demand." Such stage will come.

So yoga-yukto munir brahma acireṇa. If we always dovetail ourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and in that way we prosecute our duties . . . we don't take that this is false. We take it that because it has connection with Kṛṣṇa, it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That yoga-yukto muni, he, at once, very nicely, very easily, he realizes Brahman.

So many other processes, they're trying to realize Brahman for so many years by meditation, by penance, by going to the forest, Himalaya, and so many things. But if one is intelligent enough, always thinking that everything has got connection with Kṛṣṇa and it should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa, then I am yoga-yukta. And my brahma-bhūtaḥ, my Brahman realization, is within my hand. It is such a nice thing. Yoga-yukto viśuddhātmā (BG 5.7).

And one who is dovetailed in such a way, he is viśuddhātmā. Viśuddhātmā. Ātmā means self, and viśuddha means pure. In pure self. This is . . . when we think that "I am the enjoyer," that is, my ātmā is covered with dirty things, "I am enjoyer," and I think. But when I think, when I am yoga-yukta, that "Kṛṣṇa, everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa," then I am viśuddhātmā. And that is a fact. I am not proprietor, I am not enjoyer. I am allowed to enjoy whatever is allotted to me.

Just like take, for example, foodstuff. You can take foodstuff as much as you require for your maintenance of the body. Now if you take more, then you'll be in trouble, and if you take less, then you'll be in trouble. You have to take exactly what is prescribed for you. Just like the elephant. Elephant is taking hundred pounds daily, twice. Once at a time he takes hundred pounds or more than that. And the ant takes only one grain. Now if the ant thinks that "I shall also take hundred pounds," oh, it is impossible for him. It is impossible. (chuckling) And if the elephant thinks, "All right, the ant is taking one grain. I shall take," no. That is not.

The system is that in God's kingdom, in God's creation, for everybody there is sufficient food. You take as much as you require. That is the natural way. In the nature's way you'll find, beginning from the ant to the elephant, they will not take more, they will not take less. If to the elephant you give two hundred pounds' foodstuff, he'll take only a hundred pounds as he requires.

Neither he'll take the foodstuff to his place to stock it for next day. No. You see these pigeons. You see. Whenever you give some foodstuff, they take whatever they require, but they don't take anything for the next day. Next day. But we are thinking, "Oh, we have got so much foodstuff. All right, let me eat to the . . . up to my throat, and then take something for next day." No.

The next day question should be stopped. We shall always depend. We shall always take as much as we require. That is called yoga-yukta. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati siddhiḥ: one who is situated just exactly what he needs. Now, the whole world is situated in such a way that everybody, if he takes exactly what he needs and he does not stock, then there is no need. There is no poverty, there is no scarcity. But we do not do that. We stock for black market. No. That is creating . . .

Because I am thinking that, "This is my property." If I think that "Everything, every eatable things, they are sent by Kṛṣṇa, or God, for everyone, let me take whatever I want," then there is peace in the world. Of course, that is not possible, because it is such a world . . . it is such a world that we are always anxious to stock, or you'll have . . . I'll have to take more, then more, then more. Nobody is satisfied. Nobody is satisfied.

So yoga-yukto viśuddhātmā. One who is viśuddhātmā, one who is situated in his pure consciousness, then vijitātmā jitendriyaḥ.

(aside) Sit down. Don't disturb. Sit down.

Vijitātmā, and jitendriyaḥ. Jitendriyaḥ means that greedy, greediness: I want more. As soon as he becomes Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his greediness goes away, "I don't want more. I don't want more." So if everybody thinks like that, that "I don't want more," then where is the trouble in this world? There is no trouble.

Because by grace of God, there is enough food, enough sufficient stock. Simply it is the anomaly of distribution by the human society that is creating one starving and one . . . and that starvation is also due to his own work. There are so many. But for perfection, the perfection of the world situation, this is required. Yoga-yukto viśuddhātmā. When one is dovetailed with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is pure soul. Viśuddhātmā.

And vijitātmā. Vijitātmā means he has control over the body, and jitendriyaḥ. Jitendriyaḥ means he has conquered over the senses. Jitendriyaḥ. Sarva-bhūtātma-bhūtātmā. And he has identified himself with all living entities. Sarva-bhūtātma-bhūtātmā kurvann api na lipyate. If he works in that condition of life, then he is practically doing nothing. Because we are being entangled in this material world, and according to the reaction of my own work.

So if I am situated in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and I am in my ātmā, I am in pure state of my ātmā, and I am controlling my body and senses, and I identify with everybody, every living entity, then I have no entanglement, no reaction of my work. In this state, Kṛṣṇa says, naiva kiñcit karomīti yukto manyeta tattva-vit. "I am not doing anything." That is the stage

"A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he never thinks that, "I am doing something." Even if you ask him that, "Are you going to such-and-such place?" Suppose it is settled that he's going to such-and-such place. If you ask him, "When you are going?" he'll say that, "I do not know when I shall go, but when Kṛṣṇa will ask me or allow me to go, I shall go."

This . . . I am saying this from my practical experience from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. He would never say that "I am going," "I am doing." No. "If Kṛṣṇa desires, then I shall do it." "If Kṛṣṇa desires, then I shall go." Like that. Always depending on Kṛṣṇa. This is called viśuddhātmā. Naiva kiñcit karomīti yukto manyeta tattva-vit (BG 5.8)

Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit means one who knows the truth. One who knows the truth. The truth is that unless Kṛṣṇa allows me to go, oh, I may not go. There may be so many obstacles on my path. I have made my whole program. Just like last year, there was air crash on the Switzerland, one Indian aircraft. And there were all respectable gentlemen, and there was—perhaps you know it—there was one Indian chemist, Mr . . . Dr. Bhava. He was going to attend some nuclear meeting in some European country, but there was a crash, and all of them died in a second. So unless Kṛṣṇa desires, unless He allows, we cannot do anything. We cannot do any . . . this is the fact.

So tattva-vit . . . tattva-vit means one who knows the truth. He thinks like that, that "I cannot do anything. I am always dependent on Kṛṣṇa. I cannot . . ." Mahatma Gandhi, he used to say that "Not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of God." It is a fact. It is a fact. Nothing, nothing can be done without His sanction.

Then you can ask, "Then why somebody is doing bad work and why somebody is doing good work? In both ways Kṛṣṇa has sanctioned?" Yes, in both ways Kṛṣṇa has sanctioned. Without sanction he cannot do it. But how both ways Kṛṣṇa has sanctioned? Now Kṛṣṇa has sanctioned in this way. He has given you liberty. He has given you independence. Not full independence, but—you cannot become full independent—but you have got independence. He does not touch on your independence. That is there. Because otherwise, if you, if you are bereft of your independence, if you are without independence, then you have no meaning as living entity. Every living entity has got his minute share of independence.

So Kṛṣṇa has given every one of you independence to make your choice. Now why you are . . .? Somebody is doing bad work or somebody is doing good work, and Kṛṣṇa giving sanction? How is that? That sanction is like that, that when I want to do something and I desire, I pray, "Oh, this thing may be done . . ." It may be bad or good, that is a different thing. It may be . . . I am very much anxious. So when he's bent upon doing so, Kṛṣṇa gives him sanction, "Yes, you do it. You do it." He gives him facility. But one who has dovetailed himself into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa gives him better counsel, that "You do like this. Then you come to Me."

So sanction is always there. Sanction is always there. Without sanction, nothing can be done. So one who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness he knows. He's tattva-vit. Tattva-vit means one who knows the truth, that "I cannot do anything without Kṛṣṇa's sanction." Therefore he does not do anything. Whatever is sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa he does; otherwise not.

So, paśyañ śṛṇvan spṛśañ jighrann aśnan gacchan svapan śvasan (BG 5.8). These are our activities. Paśyan, we act by seeing. We act by hearing. We act by touching. We act by smelling. We act by going. We act by dreaming. We act by breathing. So many our activities are . . . so in all these, going on. But a tattva-vit, one who is in the perfect knowledge and is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he, although he is doing all these things he knows, "I'm not doing." This is tattva-vit. Although he's doing all these things he knows that "I am not doing. Kṛṣṇa is doing. I am simply instrumental. I am simply instrument." That is the perfection. So:

pralapan visṛjan gṛhṇann

unmiṣan nimiṣann api

indriyāṇīndriyārtheṣu

vartanta iti dhārayan

(BG 5.9)

Indriyāṇīndriyārtheṣu. These . . . there are senses. They have got use. So even the tattva-vit, who is in perfect knowledge, he is also using his senses, but he knows that Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of the senses, and he's instrumental only. "As He is directing, my senses are working." Or, in other words, when our senses work in that direction of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we gradually make progress to back to Godhead, back to home, to liberation.

brahmaṇy ādhāya karmāṇi

saṅgaṁ tyaktvā karoti yaḥ

lipyate na sa pāpena

padma-patram ivāmbhasā

(BG 5.10)

There is a very good example here, that lotus, lotus flower and lotus . . . leaves of the lotus stem. So if you put some water, that water does not stick into the lotus leaf. In natural . . . by natural way. It will not touch. It will then never be moist. Similarly, just like the lotus flower leaf does not moist, although it is in the water . . . lotus flower is in the water, and the leaves are also in the water, but it has no connection with the water. Even a drop of water if you put on it, it will at once fall down. Lotus flower. It is so made by nature.

So here the same example is there, that although we may be in this material world, so because I am staying in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and I'm acting under the direction of Kṛṣṇa, therefore nothing will affect me. Nothing will affect me. Because due to this material affection, contamination, now I am in trouble. I am getting this body one after another, just like changing dress. So myself, the pure spirit soul, so I am now in contamination because I am absorbed in the material consciousness. So as soon as I transfer myself into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then I become aloof from this material . . .

Just like the example is given here, the leaf of the lotus flower, although it is in the water, it has no connection with the water. Not a drop of water will stay there. Not a drop, even a drop, although it is in the huge mass of water. There is . . . waves are going over it and so many things. Water it is moving always, but that particular leaf of lotus flower, it has no connection with the water.

Similarly, with all upheavals of this material world, one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has nothing to do. Viśvaṁ pūrṇaṁ sukhāyate. Viśvaṁ pūrṇaṁ sukhāyate. Everyone is very much afflicted. They say: "Oh, it is very troublesome. It is very troublesome water, er, world. It is very troublesome." But a man who is in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he'll find, "Oh, everything is happy." There is no . . .

So, na lipyate na sa pāpena. And this contamination is . . . that is . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the antiseptic measure. Suppose there is some epidemic in the city, and one has taken the antiseptic vaccine of measure. He's not affected. Similarly this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the antiseptic method to become free from the contamination of this material world. So lipyate na sa pāpena. He's not affected by the counteraction or contamination of this material world.

kāyena manasā buddhyā

kevalair indriyair api

yoginaḥ karma kurvanti

saṅgaṁ tyaktvātma-śuddhaye

(BG 5.11)

Ātma-śuddhaye yoginaḥ. Those who are yogi . . . yogī means those who are in connection with the Supreme. They are called yogī. So kāyena. Kāyena means by body. Manasā. Manasā means by mind. Buddhyā. Buddhyā means by intelligence. Kevalair indriyair api: and with the senses. Yoginaḥ karma kurvanti: they work. It appears just like they are doing like ordinary man, but saṅgaṁ tyaktvā ātma-śuddhaye. Saṅgaṁ tyaktvātma . . . he has no connection. He has no connection.

Just like a bank cashier. He is sitting on the cash counter, and millions of dollars are coming to him, but he has no connection with it. Ātma-śuddhaye. Because he is yoga-yukta. He knows that "I am different from this money." He's all right. So by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one who is a yogī, yogi . . . yoginaḥ karma kurvanti saṅgaṁ tyaktvātma-śuddhaye. Ātma-śuddhaye. Karma. They work for ātma-śuddhi.

Just like we are working here. This is also work. We are reading. We are singing. This is also work, a sort of work. The same thing can be done in a club, in musical. But here the music is for ātma-śuddhaye, for purifying the soul. We are also eating, but for purifying the soul. So no work is different from the ordinary man, and the members of the society, they are also doing in the same way. They are also going to the store, purchasing things and preparing foodstuff, offering to Kṛṣṇa and eating. It appears that they are also eating, they are also sleeping, they are also working. But here everything is for ātma-śuddhaye. It is under such a regulation that one is becoming purer and purer and purer and purer.

So yoginaḥ karma kurvanti saṅgaṁ tyaktvā. It has no connection with the material conception of life. Everything with Kṛṣṇa concept of our life. Therefore ātma-śuddhaye.

yuktaḥ karma-phalaṁ tyaktvā

śāntim āpnoti naiṣṭhikīm

ayuktaḥ kāma-kāreṇa

phale sakto nibadhyate

(BG 5.12)

The . . . those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not expect any result of his work. "Oh, I am doing this work, so I will enjoy this result," that never comes. That never comes in the mind of a person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. He doesn't mind. He doesn't think of any result. Yuktaḥ karma-phalaṁ tyaktvā. And that is the source of peace. Śāntim āpnoti naiṣṭhikīm. Naiṣṭhikīm. He's always confident that "I am engaged in Kṛṣṇa's duty. So I am protected. So what is the result I do not mind. I do not mind."

Ayukta, but one who is not connected in that Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then kāma-kāreṇa phale sakto nibadhyate. He, out of his lust, he becomes attached to the result, and therefore he becomes entangled in this material world. Ayuktaḥ kāma-kāreṇa phale sakto nibadhyate. Because he has got attachment for the result, therefore ultimately he becomes entangled with this material world.

sarva-karmāṇi manasā

sannyasyāste sukhaṁ vaśī

nava-dvāre pure dehī

naiva kurvan na kārayan

(BG 5.13)

So sarva-karmāṇi manasā sannyasyāste. Sarva-karmāṇi. Whatever he does, he has decided, manasā, by the mind. Determination comes into the mind. Therefore his determination is manasā āste sukhaṁ vaśī. He, he has decided to work only for Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore his happiness is under his own control. Happiness is under his own control. He hasn't got to seek happiness externally. The happiness is controlled, controlled by him. Sukhaṁ vaśī.

Nava-dvāre pure dehī naiva kurvan na kārayan. So there are nine holes in our body. So that nine holes, they are acting. These two eyes, two nostrils, two ears, one mouth, one naval, and the evacuating and the urinal, they are nine holes, and we are taking work through these nine holes. Just like one, this room. This room has got four outlets: one there, one here, and two windows. Similarly, we have got nine holes in our body. So we are acting with the help of these nine holes. Nava-dvāre pure dehī. Dehī, it is just like a room having nine outlets.

We are not this body. That we must know. Nava-dvāre pure dehī. It is pure. Pure means a city or a room. I am sitting within this room. Nava-dvāre pure dehī kurvan na kārayan. He is doing in the room, from the . . . just like a rich man, he is sitting in his room and everything is going on. Similarly, the soul who is in pure consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is aloof from this body, and everything is going on by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Na kartṛtvaṁ na karmāṇi lokasya sṛjati prabhuḥ (BG 5.14).

Now, you can ask that, "If Kṛṣṇa is giving sanction, then He is responsible for my bad work also? Good work, of course, He is responsible. So bad work He is also responsible." Now, here the answer is, na kartṛtvaṁ na karmāṇi lokasya sṛjati prabhuḥ. Prabhu. Prabhu means the Lord. The Lord does not create work for you, neither He creates the result for you.

Na karma-phala-saṁyogaṁ svabhāvas tu pravartate. Svabhāvas tu pravartate. As you have acquired your characteristics, so you create your own work and you create your result of own work and you become entangled. It is not the creation of God. You create. "How I create? If it is sanctioned, if it is controlled by God, then how I create?" the question may be. Yes. The answer is very simple.

You can understand that a person who is criminal, who is condemned. Now he's condemned to death or he is condemned to be imprisoned. Now, he makes appeal that, "Oh, excuse me, what was done." But the judge puts him into the jail or condemns to life. So he thinks that, "The judge has condemned me to death or the . . . he has put me into jail." But is the judge enemy of a particular person that he puts somebody into the jail and condemns to death? No. I have created. I have created my jail life before. The judge is simply giving me the direction, "Oh, you have done this. Now you have to go." He is not responsible.

Similarly, God is not responsible for my work, neither He creates my work. It is my nature, it is my characteristic which, by which I create my work, I create the result and I suffer. God simply gives direction, because He is the supreme director. Or the agent of God. So He is not responsible. I am responsible. I am responsible. But if I become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if I act on His account and completely becoming dependent on Him, then He is responsible for everything . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the whole thing.

Any question?

Howard: . . . Brahmā ? Did you say self-realization is realizing our identity with Brahmā?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Howard: With Brahmā. So Brahmā, Brahmā dies. Brahmā is not eternal.

Prabhupāda: Brahman is eternal. I am eternal. I am thinking. Yes?

Devotee: He's saying Brahmā instead of Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Brahmā you mean to say?

Howard: Oh, you said Brahman.

Prabhupāda: Brahmā, Brahmā is a living creature just like us, a powerful living creature. He is called Brahmā. He's the first creature. And Brahman, Brahman is the Supreme Absolute. (end)