670405-6 - Conversation on Lord Caitanya Play - San Francisco

Lectures by Date, 1967

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

670405LC-SAN FRANCISCO - April 05-6, 1967 - 108:17 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . recording?

Hayagrīva: It's good.

Prabhupāda: The first scene is that people passing on with saṅkīrtana movement as we have, as we usually do, very nice procession with mṛdaṅga, karatāla and that bugle, all people, just in the ordinary way. We have to make a nice procession.

The second scene is that Kali, the personified Kali . . . a person should be decorated blackish. A blackish man with royal dress and very ugly features. And his queen, another ugly-featured girl or lady. So they are disturbed. They'll talk within themselves that, "There is saṅkīrtana movement now, and how we shall prosecute our business of this Kali-yuga?"

There will be, in that scene, in some corner somebody is drinking. Two or three persons drinking. The scene will be like that. They are sitting in the central. In one corner somebody taking part in drinking, and another part somebody is illicitly talking of lust and love with woman. In another section there is slaughtering of a cow, and another section gambling. In this way that scene should be adjusted.

And in the middle, the ugly man, black man, and the ugly woman will talk that, "We are now in danger. The saṅkīrtana movement has been started. What to do?" In this way you have to finish that scene.

Hayagrīva: Now Kali is depicted as a male. As male?

Prabhupāda: As male, yes.

Hayagrīva: Because sometimes I know he's depicted as female.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Male, his feature black, and dressed like a king. Black means . . . black means ignorance. And similarly, the scene is also blackish.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: These things should be assorted. Then, it is mentioned there, exhibit illicit sex, slaughterhouse, intoxication, gambling. Then the third scene is very nice: rāsa dance.

Hayagrīva: Uh . . . this before this . . . I'm not going to make this, I don't believe, either Eastern or Western, but I think this can apply for the whole world that in the sense that the names may be Indian names, but I think the exhibition of the assembly of Kali and his consort Sin and the exhibition of illicit sex and slaughterhouse, this can all be . . . it can be some Western type prototype.

Prabhupāda: That may be. No, why should you . . . it may be sometimes misunderstood that Western people are only under the influence of Kali. Because the world is under the influence of Kali. Not that in your country only this intoxication, illicit sex. No. Everywhere it is.

Hayagrīva: I realize that.

Prabhupāda: More or less. More or less.

Hayagrīva: My point . . . not only in that scene. My point is that I don't want to make this an Indian play.

Prabhupāda: That you may do. That you may do. I have no objection. But people may not misunderstand that here a scene is depicted simply criticizing the Western way. That is my point. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Now that other person, that other Lord Caitanya . . . Roy? Who wrote the other Lord Caitanya? That other play?

Prabhupāda: No, nobody.

Hayagrīva: I showed you that other play.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that Dilip Kumar.

Hayagrīva: Yes. That's what I had in mind. I thought it was strictly an Indian type of play.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that was Indian type. Yes, that was Indian type. Or if you like . . . I have no objection if you present the characters in European style. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . .

Hayagrīva: No, no. They wouldn't be presented in a Western style, but there wouldn't be neither an Eastern nor a Western flavor.

Prabhupāda: That will be very nice. That will be very nice.

Hayagrīva: In other words, it could be anywhere.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: The situation could be . . . because it's transcendental. It's not here, it's not there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, the Kali is not transcendental. Kali is material.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Yes. The earth, the whole world is affected, so it's not just one section.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only earth, this earth; it is whole universe.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So next scene is rāsa dance. Rāsa dance means Kṛṣṇa and Rādhārāṇī in the center, and the gopīs, they are surrounding. You have seen that surrounding scene they were dancing the other day in the park, hand to hand.

Hayagrīva: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So one Kṛṣṇa and one gopī, they are dancing. That scene be, scene should be . . . then the rāsa dance should be stopped, and Kṛṣṇa will talk with the gopīs. Kṛṣṇa will say to the gopīs that, "My dear friends, you have come to Me in this dead of night. It is not very good, because it is the duty of every woman to please her husband.

So what your husband will think that you have come in such dead of night? A woman's duty is not to give up her husband, even he is not of good character or if he is unfortunate, if he is old or if he is diseased. Still, husband is worshiped by the wife. So you have come here, it is very sinful. So you . . . people will decry it. Please go back. Now we have finished."

So in this way the gopīs will reply that, "You cannot request us to go back, because with great difficulty and with great, I mean to say, ecstatic desire we have come to You, and it is not Your duty to ask us to go back." In this way you arrange some talking that Kṛṣṇa is asking them to go back, but they are insisting, "No, let us continue our rāsa dance."

Then when the rāsa dance is finished, the gopīs will go, then Kṛṣṇa in His halilaki says that "They are My heart and soul, these gopīs. They are so sincere devotees that they do not care for family encumbrances and all . . . any bad name. They come to Me. So how shall I repay them?"

He was thinking, "How shall I repay their so ecstatic love?" So He thought that "I cannot repay them unless and until I take up their situation to understand Me. Because I Myself cannot understand Me, I have to take the position of the gopīs, how they are loving Me."

So with that consideration He took the form of Lord Caitanya. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is blackish; Lord Caitanya is of the color of the gopīs. The whole life of Lord Caitanya is representation of gopīs love towards Kṛṣṇa. That should be painted in that picture.

You have got ask anything?

Hayagrīva: This is His determination to incarnate as Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya, yes.

Hayagrīva: In order to . . .

Prabhupāda: In order to appreciate Kṛṣṇa in the form of gopī. Just like I have got dealings with you. So you have got your individuality, I have got my individuality, but if I want to study how you are so much obedient and loving to me, then I have to go to your position. It is very natural psychology. Yes. You have to paint in that way.

Hayagrīva: I think that's clear.

Prabhupāda: Huh? That's clear.

Hayagrīva: I think that's clear.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Then fourth scene is lunar eclipse. You'll have to arrange a scene that just in the evening there is appearance of the full moon on the side of the Ganges, and people are taking bath half in the water and half above the water, and they're all chanting, this same scene, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," with mṛdaṅga and . . . yes.

So somebody comes, Advaita. Advaita comes in the scene to take bath in the Ganges and begins to dance. "Oh, my mission is now fulfilled! My mission is now fulfilled!" He'll talk. He was very sorry to see the condition of the people that "Everyone is engaged simply for material sense gratification.

Nobody is engaged in love of Godhead." So he wanted to rectify their behavior, but he thought that "I am ordinary man. What can I do? If Kṛṣṇa Himself comes, then He can do it." Therefore he worshiped Kṛṣṇa, and he simply offered Ganges water and tulasī leaf.

In this way Kṛṣṇa has taken His incarnation as Lord Caitanya. So he has understood now at this moment Lord Caitanya is now taken His appearance. So he was dancing, "Now my mission is fulfilled. Now my mission is fulfilled."

Hayagrīva: That's Advaita.

Prabhupāda: Advaita. Lunar eclipse, everyone taking bath in the Ganges and chanting.

Hayagrīva: And Advaita is introduced there, and he's very joyful on this occasion because he had requested that this incarnation . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. He prayed. He prayed to Kṛṣṇa that "You come."

Hayagrīva: And he's aware at this time that this is the occurrence of Lord Caitanya's incarnation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So this scene should be entered like that.

Hayagrīva: Now I noticed in the list of characters we have up here, Rādhārāṇī. She doesn't appear at this point.

Prabhupāda: No. Rādhārāṇī will be in the rāsa dance?

Hayagrīva: Oh. In the Rāsa dance.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: That's the . . .

Prabhupāda: Rādhārāṇī and Kṛṣṇa in the center.

Hayagrīva: That is . . .

Prabhupāda: And Kṛṣṇa has expanded Himself for other gopīs, hand to hand.

Hayagrīva: That's the third scene, the Rāsa dance. So Rādhārāṇī appears in that?

Prabhupāda: That's the third scene, yes. There is the appearance, appearance of Rādhārāṇī.

Hayagrīva: The damsels of Vṛndāvana appear also in the . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the dance was in Vṛndāvana. Yes. That dance was in Vṛndāvana.

Hayagrīva: The damsels of Vṛndāvana also appear in the third scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Third scene. Yes. Rāsa dance of Lord Kṛṣṇa and His associates. Lord Kṛṣṇa's determination.

Hayagrīva: All right. Now we have the fourth scene. Does Advaita speak to anyone in the fourth scene, or is that . . .?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Is there anyone there? Any of these characters there? I'm trying to introduce the characters.

Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly.

Hayagrīva: The characters should be introduced in the first act.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There should be . . .

Hayagrīva: A few of them. Not all of them, but a few of them should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsa and Haridāsa. Haridāsa character is there?

Hayagrīva: Yes, I have this.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Haridāsa should be a old man.

Hayagrīva: So Advaita is old too, isn't he?

Prabhupāda: Advaita is old.

Hayagrīva: And Nivas.

Prabhupāda: He is not so old. He is middle-aged man.

Hayagrīva: Could you give me a brief rundown on their . . .? Are they devotee, they're devotees . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the picture is, Advaita, say, his age is about forty years, and Haridāsa and Advaita, he was about more than fifty years old at that time when Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born. They were quite old men, His father's age.

Hayagrīva: They're all devotees.

Prabhupāda: They're all devotees. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was propagating His saṅkīrtana movement, the brāhmins, the orthodox brāhmins, they took objection. So "This is not according to Hindu śāstra. This is something new." But only these two gentlemen, they . . . Advaita happened to be the head of the brāhmin community. So his support . . .

And he was a well-to-do man, he was rich man, influential man. His support made Caitanya's movement successful in Nabadwip. He was very influential man. And similarly, Śrīnivāsa, he was also, he belonged to the brāhmin community. And Advaita gave shelter to Haridāsa. Haridāsa was a Muhammadan. So he was punished by the Muhammadan magistrate and he took shelter at the house of Advaita. He was maintaining him.

Hayagrīva: Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Prabhupāda: You can make them appear in the scene. They were talking between Haridāsa and Śrīnivāsa and Advaita, and all of them chanting and dancing: "Now our mission is fulfilled."

Hayagrīva: Yes, I see. All right. Now, the fifth scene . . .

Prabhupāda: Fifth scene, Lord Caitanya's mother, Śacīdevī, is sitting underneath a tree, a nīm tree. It is called nīm tree. And the little child on her lap, and the visitors, so many visitors are coming, and they are offering some presentation. Somebody is offering gold necklace, somebody offering some bangles, some cloth, some money, and His father, he . . . what is called?

Jagannātha Miśra. Jagannātha Miśra is there? Yes. Jagannātha Miśra, His father. He was, whatever money and clothes and gold and silver they were coming, he was also distributing to poor men, some dancers. In India there is a system . . . what do you call? The eunuchs? Those who are neither male or female. What do you call? What is their name?

Hayagrīva: A combination of both, male and female?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: A hermaphrodite. A hermaphrodite.

Prabhupāda: Eunuchs, what is that eunuch?

Hayagrīva: A eunuch is . . .

Prabhupāda: Feminine.

Hayagrīva: Impotent, an impotent . . . someone who's been castrated.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is called eunuch. By nature, neither man, neither woman.

Hayagrīva: Oh, this is also called asexual, that is to say no sex.

Prabhupāda: No sex.

Hayagrīva: Hermaphroditic means they have the physical features of both man and woman.

Prabhupāda: Oh. At the same time?

Hayagrīva: At the same time.

Prabhupāda: I do not exactly . . . but such people, they have their own society, and their means of living is that whenever there is some good occasion, a marriage or childbirth, like that, so they go there and pray to God that, "This child may be very long living." In this way they make some prayer and get some . . .

Hayagrīva: These people . . . now I don't understand . . . this takes place at . . . the sixth scene . . .?

Prabhupāda: At Jagannātha Miśra's house.

Hayagrīva: Jagannātha Miśra's house. And his wife is who?

Prabhupāda: This scene should be mentioned as Jagannātha Miśra's courtyard.

Hayagrīva: And who is his wife, again?

Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī.

Hayagrīva: Śacīdevī, yes.

Prabhupāda: Śacīdevī is the mother of Lord Caitanya. She is sitting with the child, and everyone is visiting, visiting, presenting, or all . . . everyone's saying: "Oh, how nice child He is."

Hayagrīva: And these asexual people . . .

Prabhupāda: They are dancing.

Hayagrīva: They are dancing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are dancing, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Yes, like that. So Hare Kṛṣṇa dancing is going there.

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And visitors coming and presenting. That is a very nice scene. Yes. The sixth scene is Lord Caitanya, a naughty boy. He would go to the Ganges side, and it is the system of orthodox brāhmins that they meditate in the Ganges, half. That is the system.

Now He will go and swim over the water and throw water in their mouth in this way. Naughty boy. And they will be very much disgusted. "You naughty boy! You come here!" "Stop your meditation. What is this meditation? Chant! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa!" He would say like that.

So they will come and complain to His father: "Your child has become too much naughty, and just see that . . . teased us like this." The father will say: "Oh, the boy is going to be very naughty. I'll punish Him. Let Him come."

So father, angry father, was waiting. As soon as the boy will come he would punish. But when the boy returns the father sees that "He's just coming from school. There is no sign that He has gone to Ganges and taken bath. How is that these gentlemen complained?" He will be puzzled. In that way, we have to show.

Hayagrīva: How old is He here? How old is Caitanya here? Maybe five, six?

Prabhupāda: That was, He was five or six years old. That's all.

Hayagrīva: And this is . . . what's the location again?

Prabhupāda: This location is the front of Jagannātha Miśra's house.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Six years later, in other words.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: All right. And then that's the . . .

Prabhupāda: I think . . .

Hayagrīva: Does He meet any of these characters at the river? Does He meet any of the characters up there?

Prabhupāda: No. General public. General public. But they are all brāhmins, rigid brāhmins. They are taking bath. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Now is that the end of the first act?

Prabhupāda: End of the first . . . I think you should first of all write this, then you take. Or you take all the notes at a time.

Hayagrīva: Do you feel like going on? I don't think I'm going to write these down. I'm just going to use this tape. When I go over a scene I'll just play it back. It's too much to write.

Prabhupāda: Oh, alright. That's all right.

Hayagrīva: If you feel like going on, then go ahead.

Prabhupāda: No, I can talk.

Hayagrīva: Oh, good.

Prabhupāda: I can talk.

Hayagrīva: Well let's do as much as possible, because you're leaving Sunday.

Prabhupāda: All right. All right. Do it.

Hayagrīva: This is second act now.

Prabhupāda: Second act. Then Lord Caitanya's saṅkīrtana organization in the house of Śrīnivāsa. Śrīnivāsācārya. The saṅkīrtana movement was . . . they were all chanting together Hare Kṛṣṇa, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the devotees that, "Hello, My dear friends. What do you want to eat?" So some of them said . . .

That was out of season, and still some of them asked that, "We shall be very glad if You give us some mangoes." (laughs) So Lord Caitanya said that "All right. You just bring one seed of mango."

So in Bengal there is . . . seed of mango is available always, because the people in the village, they eat mango and throw it in the ground, they say they come out as creep, creeper. So it is not very difficult. So he brought some creeper like that, and he sowed it, and at once it became a tree, and there was sufficient quantity of mango fruits. So all the devotees were distributed. And that mango tree remained there, and they were taking mango every day. And in that scene, just try to . . .

The next scene is brāhmins' dissatisfaction. Now some of the brāhmins . . .

Hayagrīva: How old is Caitanya now?

Prabhupāda: He was about . . .

Hayagrīva: Sixteen?

Prabhupāda: Fifteen, sixteen, like that. Yes. Fifteen, sixteen. Yes, you ask me questions, any, about that.

Hayagrīva: That's His saṅkīrtana organization, that first scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: And from this first comes . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the beginning of . . .

Hayagrīva: A scene of Nivās . . .

Prabhupāda: At Śrīnivāsa's house.

Hayagrīva: Are the people mainly young people like Himself?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they were all young.

Hayagrīva: Or are they older brāhmins?

Prabhupāda: Older, only these . . .

Hayagrīva: Only the three, yes.

Prabhupāda: Haridāsa, Śrīnivāsa and Advaita. They were taking part. Otherwise, all, they were young friends, yes. Young boys. No girls. That is not the system in India. (laughs) Yes.

Now when the second scene, mainly their movement was going on and it was becoming popular. Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu preached that "Simply by the saṅkīrtana movement everything will be fulfilled. You need not do anything." So the priest class, brāhmins, they became very much dissatisfied that, "He is inviting Muhammadans and all others . . ."

Because according to Hindu society, except the brāhmins . . . especially in those days, only the brāhmins were considered the highest in the society, and even the kṣatriyas, vaiśyas, they all calculated to . . . in the group of śūdras. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was allowing everyone—the Muhammadans, the śūdras, the low class, the high class, the brāhmins . . . He was amalgamating everyone.

So these brāhmins, they took objection, "He is making a disastrous movement. The prestige of the brāhmins will go." So they became very much dissatisfied, and they concluded that, "We shall go to the magistrate and file our complaint that He is doing against Hindu religion, and He's crying always Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa loudly. The Lord is sleeping. He will be disturbed and there will be disaster, Lord being angry." In this way they filed complaint.

Ask anything, questions.

Hayagrīva: Are there any of the characters listed up here among the brāhmins who complained?

Prabhupāda: No. They complained . . . characters . . . ordinary brāhmins.

Hayagrīva: Yes. All right. Now, I can't think of anything there. That leads into the next scene, third scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the next scene is that some constables came, and during the hari-saṅkīrtana, they broke the mṛdaṅgas, that "You have disobeyed the magistrate orders that . . . so you cannot do it." So as the constables, they do some, I mean to say, what is called, violence or assault, so they did that.

And after the constables went away Caitanya Mahāprabhu was informed. He came. He saw that the mṛdaṅgas have broken and the everything is strewn away, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw. He decided, "All right. Now we shall organize a civil disobedience movement. Now tomorrow we shall organize thousands and thousands of people with mṛdaṅgas, and we shall approach the magistrate house." So He . . .

Next scene . . . what is that next scene?

Hayagrīva: Now the constables broke up a saṅkīrtana carried on by Caitanya's friends. Any location here particular?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is called the Śrīvāsa house.

Hayagrīva: On a house. At someone's home.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in India the village houses, they have got some compound. Not that only fixed house. Every house has got a compound.

Hayagrīva: All right. Very good. Now there's the fourth scene, this is the meeting with the magistrate.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fourth scene. That . . .

Hayagrīva: They march to the magistrate.

Prabhupāda: Magistrate house, and in the courtyard all the people, they were very much enthusiastic.

Hayagrīva: Several thousand.

Prabhupāda: Several thousand. And they were loudly chanting and meeting Lord . . . so when the chanting was going on, the Chand Kazi appeared and there was discussion between . . . Chand Kazi was also very great scholar, and Lord Caitanya was also scholar. So Chand Kazi, just to pacify them, he addressed Caitanya, "My dear boy, You happen to be my nephew. You are my sister's son. Why You are so angry upon Your maternal uncle?"

Caitanya Mahāprabhu got the clue that he was prepared to make compromise. So He also mildly replied: "Yes, you are My uncle, I know. So because you are My uncle, therefore I have come to your house. How is that when the nephew comes that you do not receive Him? In an angry mood you go upstairs?" So in this way, the situation was pacified. Then they sat together and there was very learned discussion between the two. Because Hindus are always against cow killing. So he was Muhammadan. They were killing cow.

Hayagrīva: Chand . . .

Prabhupāda: Chand Kazi.

Hayagrīva: Muhammadan.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Muhammadan. Chand Kazi was a . . . Maulana Chand Kazi. His name is Maulana Chand Kazi. He was a great scholar in the Quran scripture. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu first of all asked the Chand Kazi, "My dear uncle, what is your religion, that you are eating your mother and father?" (laughs)

So if you will understand that He was attacking the cow killing process. So he said: "Well, You are just trying to criticize our cow killing, but in Your Vedic literature also I have seen that cow killing is allowed in sacrifice." Then Lord Caitanya said: "Yes. That is not killing. That is rejuvenating. That is not killing." The sacrifice of cow recommended in the Vedic śāstra means that the brāhmins proved how powerful was Vedic mantra that it could give a new life to the old cows and bulls.

So then Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, "Such kind of learned brāhmins and Vedic yajña is not possible in this age. Therefore cow killing . . ." Not cow killing. "Sacrifice by offering cow, sacrifice by offering horse, and . . ." Aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ (CC Adi 17.164). And sannyāsaṁ pala paitṛkam. Sannyāsa means to become in the renounced order of life. And these five things. One thing is sacrifice by offering cow. Second, sacrifice by offering horse. Third, to accept renounced order of life. And fourth, offering ablutions . . . or what is called? Offering some . . . something to the forefathers? What is called?

Hayagrīva: Oblations.

Prabhupāda: Oblations. Yes. This, and to beget child by the husband's younger brother. Formerly, the society allowed that if a woman is young, she has no child, but husband died, so if the husband has younger brother, through the younger brother she could have a child. This system was current. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that these five things are forbidden in this age.

So Chand Kazi also replied that, "Cow killing is also not generally recommended in the Quran. Actually . . . I mean to say, beef-eating or flesh-eating is not in the higher stage. But those who are inclined to take flesh, for them it is recommended that instead of killing many small animals, one big animal should be killed." So actually in Mecca, Medina, they kill camel. That is also in the mosque.

So the substance of his speech was that flesh-eating ultimately is not recommended. "But those who have no other means, they eat flesh, and they recommend that one big animal should be killed. So India, the cow is big animal, therefore we kill. But that is not recommended for advanced spiritual students."

In this way . . . so they were friends, and he understood . . . Chand Kazi understood that it is very nice movement that, "You are preaching love of Godhead. So I did not understand. So my dear boy, henceforward there will be no hindrances in Your movement, and I promise that not only myself but all my descendants would never object Your movement, this saṅkīrtana movement."

Hayagrīva: All right. Now, I don't have any questions there. I probably wouldn't deal quite at such length about the meat. I don't see how that . . . the main thing was about the saṅkīrtana, the chanting.

Prabhupāda: Chanting, and it was mitigated, and he allowed. First of all, there was objection, then there was civil disobedience, then when they, I mean to say, compromised, the Chand Kazi allowed the movement. This is the whole idea.

Hayagrīva: The fifth scene is renunciation of household life.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: This is at age . . .? This is considerably later, then. This is about ten years later.

Prabhupāda: No. Renunciation . . . now this Chand Kazi, he was . . . this movement when He was about twenty years old. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: The saṅkīrtana was when He was around twenty. The Kazi.

Prabhupāda: The saṅkīrtana was going on.

Hayagrīva: When He was sixteen, fifteen.

Prabhupāda: But practically He started this saṅkīrtana movement vigorously from the age of fifteen years. But when He was twenty years old, when the movement took very nice appearance, the brāhmins they complained. So this movement was about twenty years old, when . . . then renunciation . . .

Hayagrīva: He's twenty-four now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Renunciation. So one day it so happened that instead of chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa," Lord Caitanya was chanting, "Gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī, gopī," instead of chanting "Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa." So He had a small school. The brāhmins, generally they keep a small school, which is called catuṣpaṭhī. C-c-h-a-a-t-u-s-p-a-t-h-i.

Catuṣpaṭhī. Catuṣpaṭhī means that a school where up to the four Vedas are taught. Grammar and religion and everything is taught there. So there . . . in every village that was system, the brāhmins should keep up a school like that. Students were all almost, they were also of the same age. Some of them were fifteen years old, sixteen years old.

So the students came and saw Lord Caitanya was chanting "Gopī gopī," so they objected. They said: "Oh, why You are chanting gopī gopī? Why You do not chant 'Kṛṣṇa,' 'Hare Kṛṣṇa'?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was in His ecstasy, because He was . . . in the beginning, His appearance is in the form of gopī, to love Kṛṣṇa.

So He became very much angry, and because they were students, He wanted to chastise them. He took a stick. "You nonsense! What you are speaking? Go away!" So they fled away, but after that they organized, "Oh, how is that? Caitanya, He is . . . how He has become so big that they (He) wants to beat us?" In this way they practically they were talking ill of Him.

So He decided that, "If I remain a householder, these people will not honor Me." Because in those days a sannyāsī was honored in the society very much. If a sannyāsī comes to your village or to a householder's house, it was very . . . still it is going on, although not so widely. But still, eighty percent of the population in India, if they find out a sannyāsī they give all honor.

So He decided that, "Now I shall become a sannyāsī." So He happened to see Keśava Bhāratī, a sannyāsī on the Śaṅkara sampradāya, and He requested him that "You give Me sannyāsa." So He took sannyāsa from Keśava Bhāratī and He was assisted by Nityānanda, Murāri Gupta and some other people. So this is His renunciation decision and acceptance of sannyāsa.

Hayagrīva: How does He, How does He accept sannyāsī? Is it an official ceremony?

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsa, there is a ceremony. Just like we have got the initiation ceremony.

Hayagrīva: Did He have a spiritual master?

Prabhupāda: So He accepted spiritual . . . not spiritual master, but a sannyāsa-guru. That is also master, but he's not spiritual master. But he's also considered as sannyāsa-guru, spiritual master who offers him sannyāsa. Just like myself, I took initiation from my Guru Maharaja, but I took sannyāsa from a Godbrother who is a sannyāsī. So my original guru is that spiritual master who initiated me, but he's also a śikṣā guru. Like that. Teacher.

Then His renunciation of householder. He became sannyāsa. Now when He was, after taking sannyāsa, when He was going towards Vṛndāvana, He became always almost mad. So Nityānanda, He was with Him. When He saw that Lord Caitanya is in ecstasy, He misled Him just to . . .

His plan was that, "I shall take Lord Caitanya to the house of Advaita, and then I shall call His mother to see Him for the last time. If Caitanya goes away from this very point His mother will not be able to see Him."

So out of sympathy He said: "Well, Śrīpāda Caitanya, this is not . . . this side is not Vṛndāvana. You go . . ." He just misdirected Him. So . . . and He sent one man to Advaita to receive Him, that "He has taken sannyāsī. Just try to make arrangement to receive Him. Then we shall meet."

So when He came near the house of Advaita He saw that Advaita was waiting. So then He, I mean to say, came to His sense, "Oh, I am misled? I have come to Advaita's house? How is that, Nityānanda? You showed Me this way Vṛndāvana." Then He said: "Oh, wherever You stay, that is Vṛndāvana." Now Advaita says: "All right, please come to my house."

So he received Him and took Him there and sent news to His mother that, "Your son has now taken sannyāsa. Now if you want to see Him for the last time, please come and see."

So in this way at Advaita's house He remained for some time. Say about a fortnight. And during that time, in the beginning, His mother came, and His mother became so much sorry. That scene you have to describe very nicely—mother seeing that her son has taken sannyāsa: "No more He'll come to house."

So (s)he was crying. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu fell on his (her) feet and begged, "My dear mother, yes. This body belongs to you. This body should have been engaged for your service. Unfortunately, I've done a mistake. I have already taken sannyāsa. Please excuse Me." In this way. That scene described in the Dilip Kumar's house, that Caitanya is consulting mother, that is a false scene. The actual scene is that after accepting His sannyāsa, His mother came to see Him at Advaita's house. That is the . . .

Hayagrīva: Yes. Does she give Him her blessing finally?

Prabhupāda: No. Of course, mother's blessings are always there. But the scene was that mother was crying, and He was falling on the feet, and His mother was very sorry that He had very beautiful hair; now it is all cut off. In this way, the scene is very pathetic.

So in this way, after remaining at Advaita's house, His mother was asking Him through Advaita, "Let Him remain for some time." Then He consulted, "Mother, now just you," I mean to say, "think over that I have taken sannyāsa. And if I remain in this way, leaving My own family, and if I leave another family, do you think this is very nice for a sannyāsī? So give Me permission to go away." Then the mother agreed, and other friends like Advaita and Śrīnivāsa requested His mother that "You give Him permission." Then (s)he said: "Yes, I have to give Him permission, because He has already accept sannyāsa. If somebody blames Him, blasphemy, that is also not good. "So my last request is that He may make His headquarter at Jagannātha Purī so that . . . because people generally go to Jagannātha Purī, so I shall be able at least to know about Him, how He is faring there. That is my last request."

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu at once accepted, "My dear mother, I shall always stay in Jagannātha Purī, and sometimes I may come to Bengal also to take bath in the Ganges. So there will be meeting. Now let Me go." So in this way they departed, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu for the last time saw His friends and mother.

Hayagrīva: I don't understand Nityānanda's motive. He's a friend. Nityānanda, He's a young friend of . . . Caitanya's.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Nityānanda was not actually a family brother. But He was . . . He is the incarnation of Baladeva, the elder brother of Kṛṣṇa. So He took His birth in a different family, but He joined Caitanya's movement as other friends joined. So He is considered the elder brother of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He's actually.

Hayagrīva: He opposed Caitanya's . . . He opposed Caitanya's sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: No, no. He did not oppose. He did not oppose. He simply, after Caitanya's acceptance of sannyāsa, He wanted simply that He should come to Advaita's place so that His mother may see Him for the last time. That was His plan.

Hayagrīva: I see.

(break) All right, this is third act, first scene.

Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after taking leave from His mother, left Bengal towards Orissa, and on the entrance in the district of Balasore there is a nice temple called Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple. And He saw the temple. Here the scene is to be arranged that there is nice temple, and within the temple there is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deity, Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha.

The pūjārīs are there, ārati is being taken place, and at that time Caitanya Mahāprabhu entered with His followers, chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," and He saw the Deity and danced before Him. And when the ārati was finished, prayer was finished, then He sat down, talked with His associates, Nityānanda and Gadādhara and Murāri.

So Nityānanda Prabhu described about the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, the story of Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. It was very nice story, that formerly one ācārya, Madhavendra Purī, came to this temple, Gopīnatha, and while that condensed milk, which is called kṣīra, was being offered to the Deity, Madhavendra Purī wanted to taste it so that he would also prepare such condensed milk and offer to his Gopāla. So after that he thought, "Oh, it is being offered to Kṛṣṇa and I wanted to taste it. So I am so greedy."

So he left the temple that, "I am not worth to visit this temple." So he went outside the temple and sat down underneath a tree and was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then at dead of night, Gopīnatha, the Deity, was awakening His priest by dream that, "You please get up. I have kept one pot of condensed milk behind My . . . " what is called . . . that pid vastra . . . that kings, sometimes they have got, very long tail-like. What is that called?

Hayagrīva: Robe or something?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the name?

Hayagrīva: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit it is called pid vastra, backside robe. So under the backside robe He kept one pot of condensed milk by stealing. So the pūjārī woke up and opened the door and actually saw that there was a pot of condensed milk. They were . . . the priests were very much astonished that, "Oh, He has stolen (laughs) kṣīra for His devotee."

So the order was that, "You take this pot and give to Madhavendra Purī. He is sitting underneath the tree." So they, with the pot of the condensed milk, they began to cry, "Oh, who is that Madhavendra Purī? Oh, you are so fortunate. The Deity has stolen condensed milk for you. Take it."

So he came forward, and he was so pleased that Lord has stolen. "Because I desired to taste, so Lord has stolen one pot." In this way. From that day He became famous, "the thief of condensed milk," kṣīra-corā. Kṣīra means condensed milk, and corā means thief. So the temple became famous that the temple of the thief of condensed milk.

Hayagrīva: Caitanya, the condensed milk thief.

Prabhupāda: No. Oh, you did not hear. Caitanya, after seeing the Deity, He was sitting and seeing, and in the meantime Nityānanda Prabhu narrated the story how His name became Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. You did not follow me?

Hayagrīva: Nityānanda?

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda.

Hayagrīva: Nityānanda.

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda was going with Lord Caitanya.

Hayagrīva: Narrated this to Lord Caitanya? Nityānanda narrated this to Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that how the Deity was known as Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. The story was narrated that formerly He stole one . . .

Hayagrīva: Condensed milk.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Pot of condensed milk for His devotee.

Hayagrīva: Now what is the direct relationship does this have to Lord Caitanya?

Prabhupāda: Lord Caitanya also visited. Anyone in those days going to Jagannātha Purī from Bengal, they had to pass that way. And on the way the Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha temple is there. So everyone used to visit. So formerly Madhavendra Purī, he also visited, and for him the Deity stole the condensed milk. From that time He's known as Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha. That story was narrated to Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

So while sitting before the Deity, the story was narrated, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu relished it that God is so kind that sometimes He steals for His devotee. This is the significance of this. So here the scene should be arranged that very nice temple, the Deity within, and Lord Caitanya entered while chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and saw the worship, ārātrika. These things are to be shown in this scene. And a little story about Him, that's all.

Hayagrīva: About the temple.

Prabhupāda: About the temple. This will finish the first scene.

Hayagrīva: There should be more to the scene, I think, than that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arrangement of the scene, yes. A very nice temple.

Hayagrīva: We might be able to . . . now what is this second scene? This is another temple.

Prabhupāda: This is another temple, yes. Here also, this temple, Sākṣi-gopāla.

Hayagrīva: I might be able to combine these, if they . . .

Prabhupāda: No. They are different temples. So Lord Caitanya is visiting different temples, that you have to show. And each temple, the significance of the temple has to be described. Especially the Deity. When the importance is to the Deity, the Deity should be shown nicely decorated.

Hayagrīva: Hmm. Well I don't know if I have enough information for that first scene. But I'll think of something. I don't know if I have enough information for the first scene. It can be very short.

Prabhupāda: First scene, why you have to . . . the ārātrika is going on and kīrtana is going on, you can continue for five minutes, ten minutes the kīrtana, and short description of the Deity. That's all. That will finish.

Hayagrīva: Now the other is the Sākṣi-gopāla.

Prabhupāda: Sākṣi-gopāla. Sākṣi means witness. Gopāla . . . that picture, we have brought that big picture, that is Gopāla mūrti—alone standing Kṛṣṇa and playing . . . you have seen that big picture?

Hayagrīva: The big picture, yes.

Prabhupāda: A Deity like that should be situated in that temple. And His name is Sākṣi-gopāla. These . . . similarly, Lord Caitanya entered with His party and saw the ārātrika in Gopāla temple. Then the story of the Gopāla, Sākṣi, why He was known as Sākṣi-gopāla.

Hayagrīva: Saw Darate? Saw what? Darate. He saw . . .

Prabhupāda: Ārati.

Hayagrīva: Entered and saw in the Sākṣi temple and saw . . .? What did you say?

Prabhupāda: Sākṣi-gopāla means witness Gopāla. Witness. So how He became witness, that story was also narrated by Nityānanda to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That story is that in that village, two brāhmins . . . that's a very long story.

Hayagrīva: What does this have to do with this temple? What does this story have to do with the temple? Lord Caitanya has entered this temple.

Prabhupāda: That's all. But how this temple was established, how Gopāla was established, that history is in that story. The Sākṣi-gopāla means witness. This Gopāla was situated in Vṛndāvana, but to give witness for His devotee He came to Orissa, that place. That is the significance of this Gopāla. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: No. (laughs) No.

Prabhupāda: This Gopāla was situated at Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means about more than one thousand miles away from where the temple is situated now. But He came one thousand miles to give witness for His devotee. Since then, Gopāla is situated there. So that story is narrated. So that story should be narrated, or what? How to do it? That is the significance of the temple. There was some family quarrel, and Gopāla came to give witness to decide judgment on that quarrel. So is it possible to describe?

Hayagrīva: I think from a dramatic point of view, in your third act, you can't have too many narrations. It becomes very tedious, if you have a narration—someone telling the history of various temples. Like in the first scene, now there's a story being told Lord Caitanya by Nityānanda. Now in the second scene He visits another temple. And is there going to be another narration about how the temple was founded? I don't think that's . . . I don't know. (laughs) Do you think that will be all right?

Prabhupāda: No. That will be all right in this way, that the narration should be shortly described in poetry, and that will be chanted with kīrtana. In that way, you see.

Hayagrīva: Yes. You see the first two acts . . . the first two acts there was a lot of action. There was a lot of action. Now we're in the third act, and we have two scenes . . . two scenes of description. Now they can be two short scenes of description. That'll be all right. That'll be all right, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So what is the story? A short little story?

Prabhupāda: The short story is that there was two brāhmins. Two brāhmins: one young brāhmin, one old brāhmin. They went to Vṛndāvana to see Gopāla, and the old brāhmin was so obliged to the young brāhmin, he promised to hand over his youngest daughter to the young brāhmin. But when he came back home, his eldest son objected. So he kept mum.

Then when the young brāhmin, I mean to say, reminded him that "You promised before Gopāla to hand over your daughter. Now you are silent. What is this?" so his eldest son said: "Well, if Gopāla comes to give witness that my father promised before Him, then my sister can be married with you." So he went back to Vṛndāvana and requested Gopāla to come and give witness. So He came, and the marriage ceremony was performed. This is the sum and substance of the story.

And since then Gopāla did not . . . Gopāla means statue. So in those days there was no transport service. And when Gopāla was present everyone became struck with wonder that, "Oh, such a devotee that Gopāla has come from Vṛndāvana to Orissa, more than 1,500 miles." So the king of that place constructed a very nice temple, and since then that temple is known as Witness Gopāla.

Sākṣi-gopāla means witness. So this story can be shortly described and chanted with music, and the scene of the temple will be seen, Caitanya Mahāprabhu dancing. Our real purpose will be the dancing and singing and little description.

Hayagrīva: Yes. Now, is that all of this?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then He visited Jagannātha temple. And the Jagannātha temple you have to arrange, it is very crowdy temple. So many people were visiting Jagannātha temple, at the same time Lord Caitanya also entered, and He entered alone.

Hayagrīva: How old is He at this point? How old is He?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu?

Hayagrīva: His age at this time?

Prabhupāda: Twenty-four years. It is just after His sannyāsa. He took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four. So He's visiting. After sannyāsa He's going to Jagannātha Purī. On the way He visited this Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha, Sākṣi-gopāla, and ultimately He came to Jagannātha temple. And in the Jagannātha temple was very crowded temple, because it is always at least 500, 1,000 devotees are always seeing. It is significance of Jagannātha temple.

So He entered, and as soon as He saw Jagannātha He became overwhelmed with ecstasy and fell down unconscious. So all the people gathered, "He's a young sannyāsī. He has fallen down." So there was Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, the learned scholar of Purī. He saw, "Oh, this young sannyāsī, He's not ordinary."

So he asked his men to carry Him to his place, and that will be the scene. Then after His departure His followers will come, and they will search in the temple that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is not there. Then one Gopīnātha Ācārya . . . I think the character is there? Gopīnātha Ācārya?

Hayagrīva: Now is this the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gopīnātha Ācārya. Yes.

Hayagrīva: Is this the learned brāhmin?

Prabhupāda: Gopīnātha Ācārya and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. They were brother-in-law.

Hayagrīva: Saba . . . be . . .

Prabhupāda: Bhauma.

Hayagrīva: Oh, his name is here. Yes, you didn't mention . . .

Prabhupāda: And Gopīnātha Ācārya is also there.

Hayagrīva: Yes, all right. Sarvabhooma.

Prabhupāda: So just note down. First of all, Caitanya Mahāprabhu enters the temple. As soon as He sees Jagannātha He becomes fainted and fell down unconscious. So all the visitors, they became astonished that, "Here is a young sannyāsī, and how is that, He has fallen down?"

But Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya noted that He is a high-grade sannyāsī. So he asked his men that, "You carry this body, unconscious body, to my place." So his men took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body unconscious, and Sārvabhauma also, and exit.

Then after their departure His party entered the temple. Nityānanda, Gadādhara and Murāri, all these men entered. So Gopīnātha Ācārya was present there. He was known to Gadādhara, and Gadādhara inquired that, "Is there any sannyāsī who came here?" Then Gopīnātha Ācārya said: "Yes, we have seen one sannyāsī.

He fell down in ecstasy and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya has taken Him to his home." So he invited, "All right, you come with me. I am taking you there." So all the parties were taken to Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place.

Hayagrīva: The friends of Caitanya. What are their names again?

Prabhupāda: Their name is Nityānanda, Gadādhara . . .

Hayagrīva: What's that name?

Prabhupāda: Gadādhara.

Hayagrīva: Oh, I see, yes.

Prabhupāda: Nityānanda, Gadādhara . . .

Hayagrīva: And Murāri.

Prabhupāda: And Murāri and Mukunda.

Hayagrīva: And Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And Haridāsa also. Yes.

Hayagrīva: And Haridāsa. What about Advaita?

Prabhupāda: No, Advaita and Śrīnivāsa, they were left in . . .

Hayagrīva: All right. They're not there.

Prabhupāda: So the next scene comes to the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's place.

Hayagrīva: Fourth scene.

Prabhupāda: Fourth scene. Yes. "Lord Caitanya meets Sārvabhauma." Now from Jagannātha temple the next scene is Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house. Do you follow?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: In that house, Caitanya, Lord Caitanya was lying unconscious in ecstasy, the same unconsciousness which He got from the temple. So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was trying to treat Him with some water so that He may come to consciousness. Now when His other friends, Nityānanda, Gadādhara and others, arrived there, they told, "Oh, Lord Caitanya, He becomes unconscious while chanting.

So He cannot be revived to His consciousness by any other means. We have to chant." So in the Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's house that chanting and dancing began with all the members, and gradually Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to consciousness.

Then there was introduction of Caitanya Mahāprabhu through Gopīnātha Ācārya and Gadādhara. And Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya told that, "You become my guest, you, all of you." And he gave them places. Then . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu was only twenty-four years old, and Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, he was old man, about sixty years old.

So by acquaintance it was disclosed that Sārvabhauma's father and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grandfather were class friends. So Jagannātha Miśra, in that sense—Jagannātha Miśra means Caitanya's father—was, I mean to say, a relative, brother-in-law of Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. So he took Him affectionately and told Him, "My dear boy, You have taken sannyāsa at a very early age. So You should be very careful to study Vedānta-sūtra from me. Otherwise it will be very much difficult for You, young man."

So He agreed, "Yes, you are just like My father. So you will kindly give Me instruction on Vedānta-sūtra." So there was discussion of the Vedānta-sūtra between Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That discussion is shortly mentioned in the introduction of my Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You will see it.

Hayagrīva: The discussion between Sarvabhauma?

Prabhupāda: And Caitanya.

Hayagrīva: And Caitanya, regarding . . .

Prabhupāda: Regarding Vedānta-sūtra.

Hayagrīva: That's in the introduction to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes, I remember that. All right. There's no sense in going over that. All right. What is the outcome of this, now? Final outcome?

Prabhupāda: The outcome is that the Sārvabhauma was impersonalist and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was Vaiṣṇava. Then by argument, logic and everything—that is shortly described there—Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya became a disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he became a greatest devotee. That is the outcome. And it was a great victory on the part of Caitanya Mahāprabhu because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was known as the most stubborn scholar of logic of that time, and he became a devotee. Yes.

And by Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's becoming a devotee of Lord Caitanya, practically He became victorious in His missionary activities, because Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was a learned scholar in the assembly of the King of Orissa. So the King of Orissa also became a devotee, and many other scholars and big men.

Hayagrīva: Of Caitanya's. They all became devo . . . the King of Orissa?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he became a great devotee.

Hayagrīva: That might even be mentioned in this scene. I don't know if you can mention it here.

Prabhupāda: It is not mentioned, but . . .

Hayagrīva: Well, that's an outcome of this meeting, anyway.

Prabhupāda: When Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya was meeting the King, the King inquired that, "I have heard that there is a big sannyāsī has come here. What is the details of this sannyāsī? I've heard that you have also become a disciple." So Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya explained, "Yes, He's not ordinary sannyāsī. He's Kṛṣṇa Himself, so far I've studied."

So Bhaṭṭācārya, he was authority, a great learned man. And the King, when he heard that He is Kṛṣṇa, he also became a devotee. So all expenditure, all everything was supplied by the King and his officers to Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So many people . . . always four hundred, five hundred men were visiting Him. So whoever would come, and he would supply food and place. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He began His chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa in the Jagannātha temple.

The same scene is being performed here before the Jagannātha temple, Lord Caitanya is dancing. When we perform the class I remembered that scene. Yes. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu is dancing before Jagannātha. Every evening four parties. In each party four mṛdaṅga and eight karatāla.

So one party this side, one party this side, one party back side, one party front side, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the middle would dance, and the four parties will chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa . . . that was going on every evening so long He stayed at Jagannātha Purī.

Hayagrīva: This . . . that only happened as long as He stayed there. Is that right?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: This no longer . . . they no longer do this.

Prabhupāda: No, not in that way, but kīrtana goes on in the temple still.

Hayagrīva: Not to such an extent.

Prabhupāda: Sometimes to such an extent. But He was different personality. In His presence, that was a different thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu's, I mean to say, Deity is within the temple. That Deity is worshiped, and kīrtana takes place, Bhāgavata . . . (indistinct)

Hayagrīva: In Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: In Jagannātha Purī, yes.

Hayagrīva: All right. Now is that all of the fourth scene? Anything else in the fourth scene?

Prabhupāda: No, nothing.

Hayagrīva: All right. Then that's the end of the third act.

Prabhupāda: It is the end of third act. We have . . . (break)

Hayagrīva: This is the fourth act, first scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes, fourth act, first scene.

Hayagrīva: "Meets Rāmānanda Rāya."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I speak?

Hayagrīva: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: So after converting Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu started for His South Indian tour. In South Indian tour, before meeting Rāmānanda Rāya, He visited a very nice temple, which is called Vijaya Nṛsiṁha. Shall I . . .? Shall you give that scene? That is very nice temple. Huh?

Hayagrīva: Yes. Go ahead.

Prabhupāda: Then the first scene will be the visit of Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh temple.

Hayagrīva: Vijaya . . .

Prabhupāda: Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh.

Hayagrīva: I'll get the spellings of these from you later.

Prabhupāda: I'm spelling. V-i-j-a-y N-r-i-s-i-n-g-a G-a-r-h. Vijaya Nṛsiṁha Garh temple. This is near modern Visakhapatnam shipyard. There is a very great Indian shipyard, Visakhapatnam. Formerly it was not Visakhapatnam. So near that, five miles away from that station, there is that nice temple on the hill. So I think that the temple scenery may be there and Caitanya Mahāprabhu's visiting that temple.

And after that temple He came to the bank of River Godāvarī. Just like the river Ganges is very sacred river, similarly there are others, four other rivers: Yamunā, Godāvarī, Kṛṣṇā, Narmadā. Gaṅgā, Yamunā. Godāvarī, Narmadā and Kṛṣṇā. These five rivers are considered very sacred.

So He came to the bank of Godāvarī and He took His bath and was sitting in a nice place underneath a tree and chanting "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa." In the meantime He saw that a great procession was coming, and that should be the scenario of this. In that procession . . . formerly the kings and governors, they used to take bath in the Ganges with their paraphernalia, band party and many brāhmins and all kinds of charitable things.

In this way they used to come to take bath. So Lord Caitanya saw that somebody is coming in that great procession, and He was told about Rāmānanda Rāya, the governor of Madras province. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya requested Him that, "You are going to South India. You must meet Rāmānanda Rāya. He's a great devotee."

So when He was sitting on the bank of the Kāverī and Rāmānanda Rāya was coming in procession, He understood that he is Rāmānanda Rāya. But because He was sannyāsī, He did not address him. But Rāmānanda Rāya, he was a great devotee, and saw a nice sannyāsī, young sannyāsī was sitting and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Generally, the sannyāsīns they do not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They, "Oṁ Nārā . . . oṁ . . ." Simply sound oṁ. Not Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva: What do you mean He wouldn't address him because He was a sannyāsī?

Prabhupāda: Sannyāsīn, the restriction is the sannyāsī should not beg from pound-shilling man or see them. That is a restriction. Women, and men of pounds-shillings-pence.

Hayagrīva: But I thought Rāmānanda Rāya was a devotee.

Prabhupāda: But he was devotee, but undoubtedly, but outwardly he was a governor. Outwardly. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not go him, but he understood that "Here is a nice sannyāsī." He came down and offered his respect and sat down before Him. And there was acquaintances, and Lord Caitanya said that "Bhaṭṭācārya has already informed Me about you. You are a great devotee. So I have come to see you."

And then he replied: "Well, what devotee? I am a pound-shilling man, politician. But Bhaṭṭācārya is very kind to me that he has asked Your Holiness to see me. So if You have come, so kindly, kindly deliver me from this material māyā."

So there was appointment of time with Rāmānanda Rāya, and both of them met again in the evening, and there was discussion about, I mean to say, spiritual advancement of life. Lord Caitanya inquired from him and Rāmānanda Rāya replied. Of course, that's a long story, how He questioned and how he replied.

Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: Well, is that important? That's the scene about the meeting.

Prabhupāda: Meeting . . . meeting, that discussion would you like to give?

Hayagrīva: Well, if it has to be rendered in the scene it's important. You want me to render the discussion?

Prabhupāda: Important is the scene that He met Rāmānanda Rāya, he came in procession, that was a nice scenery. These things are already complete. Now so far the talks are concerned, the summary of the talk was . . .

Hayagrīva: Just give me the brief summary.

Prabhupāda: Brief summary . . . in this scene Caitanya Mahāprabhu became the student. Not exactly student; He inquired and Rāmānanda Rāya answered. So the importance of the scene is that Caitanya Mahāprabhu does not follow the formality only the sannyāsīns should be the spiritual master.

Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can be spiritual master. And to show this example practically, although He was sannyāsī and brāhmin and Rāmānanda Rāya was a śūdra and a gṛhastha, householder, still He became like a student and inquired Rāmānanda Rāya.

Rāmānanda Rāya felt some, I mean to say, hesitation that, "How can I take the position of a teacher to a sannyāsī?" Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied: "No, no. Don't hesitate." He stated that either one may be a sannyāsī or may be householder or one may be a brāhmin or śūdra, it doesn't matter.

Anyone who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can take the place of teacher. So that was His, I mean to say, gift. Because in Indian society it is simply taken that the brāhmins and the sannyāsī can be spiritual master. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "No. Anyone can become spiritual master provided he's conversant with the science."

And the summary of the discussion was how to elevate oneself in the highest perfection of love of Godhead. And that love of Godhead was described, existed, I mean to say, superexcellently in Rādhārāṇī. So in the bhāva, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī. And Rāmānanda Rāya, in the feature of Rādhārāṇī's associates Lalitā-sakhī, both of them embraced and began to dance in ecstasy. That will be the end of the scene. Both of them began to dance in ecstasy.

Hayagrīva: Rāmānanda Rāya . . .

Prabhupāda: And Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: All right. Now the second scene. Is that the end of the first?

Prabhupāda: Second scene . . .

Hayagrīva: Fourth act.

Prabhupāda: . . . fourth act, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, after finishing His South Indian tour, He came back to Jagannātha Purī, His headquarter, and after some days He started for Vṛndāvana. While He was in Vṛndāvana He was embracing the trees as old friend, and the birds were sitting on His hand, as if receiving an old friend. Because He was Kṛṣṇa.

So after many years they have seen. And that scene, if you can describe how He's traveling in Vṛndāvana forest. Then He took bath in the several vānas and ghāṭas. Ghāṭas means bathing place of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. And everywhere He felt the ecstasy of Rādhārāṇī, separation. In this way He returned from Vṛndāvana, and when He came down to Prayāg, modern Allahabad, at that time He met Rūpa Gosvāmī. Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Hayagrīva: Now you say the trees were old friends because He could remember that He was Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa used to play in these forests. He used to play in the forest. Yes. Now He met Rūpa Gosvāmī . . .

Prabhupāda: At Prayāg.

Hayagrīva: . . . at Prayāg. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Allahabad. And . . .

Hayagrīva: What is His age? I just want to keep checking on this, His age now. Is He twenty, in His twenties still?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He took sannyāsa at twenty-four. Say twenty-five, twenty-six years.

Hayagrīva: Couple of years later. All right. Because time is an important factor. You have to keep track of the time in the play.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He toured, after His sannyāsa, He toured all over India for six years only. That means up to thirtieth year He toured all over India. And from thirtieth year to forty-eighth year—eighteen years—He constantly remained at Jagannātha Purī. He used to chant in the temple and meet His visitors.

Especially during car festival ceremony of Jagannātha, from Bengal about four hundred, five hundred devotees would go and meet Him, and they would remain there for four months continually: July, August, September, October. Four months. And then they would come back. In this way, for eighteen years He passed in Jagannātha Purī.

So Rūpa Gosvāmī . . . he met Rūpa Gosvāmī and He taught him about the science of devotion for ten days. That devotional service He instructed that the living entities, they're roaming in the 8,400,000 species of life. Fortunately, if by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and if he gets one good spiritual master, then he learns about devotional service. So He taught him about the science of devotional service. That is the importance of meeting Rūpa Gosvāmī.

So here the scenery must be mentioned. It is on the bank of Ganges. There is a nice ghāṭa, just like . . . you have been to Benares? No. You have been Haridwar? Haridwar?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen many ghāṭas, bathing places.

Hayagrīva: Oh, yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, there are ghāṭas in Benares, at Prayāg, and all, I mean to say, Vṛndāvana. That is the specific significance of Indian places of pilgrimage.

Hayagrīva: Yes. They bathe there every day, I noticed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So similarly, there is a ghāṭa which is called Daśāśvamedha Ghāṭa at Prayāg. He instructed about the science of devotional service to Rūpa Gosvāmī.

Hayagrīva: Now how old is Rūpa Goswami? Is he an old man?

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was old enough. He was not less than fifty years at that time.

Hayagrīva: I see. All right. Anything else in the second scene, fourth act?

Prabhupāda: That is it. And when He is . . . and then He came back to Benares. And . . .

Hayagrīva: Who?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: I thought He stayed in Jagannātha . . . he's not now . . . he left . . .

Prabhupāda: No, from Jagannātha Purī He went to Vṛndāvana. From Vṛndāvana, while coming down again, He first of all came to Prayāg. There He taught Rūpa Gosvāmī. Then when He still came down, He came to Benares.

Hayagrīva: Yes. All right.

Prabhupāda: At Benares He remained for two months. More than two months. And for two months continually He instructed Sanātana Gosvāmī about devotional service. That instruction you'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. I've written that Teachings of Lord Caitanya?

Hayagrīva: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In that you'll find.

Hayagrīva: Now this third scene, meets Sanātana Gosvāmī, that's in Benares. And Sanātana is how old?

Prabhupāda: Sanātana was older than Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was the eldest. He was not less than about sixty-five or seventy years old. He was old man. Sufficiently old man.

Hayagrīva: Yes. And the instructions to Sanātana Gosvāmī are in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. All right. Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, the fourth scene, the teachings with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, that is also in there.

Hayagrīva: Who is this?

Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī was at Benares. He was a Māyāvādī sannyāsī, Śaṅkara-sampradāya. So he used to . . . this scene should be given that at Benares He was also walking all over the streets and roads, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa," and thousands and thousands men were following Him.

This news arrived to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, who was the chief sannyāsī there and some of the devotees told, "Oh, a very nice sannyāsī has come to Benares. He's chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī deprecated, "Oh! This is a nonsense! Why a sannyāsī should chant and dance? He should concentrate his mind in studying Vedānta. He is a fool." In this way Caitanya Mahāprabhu was criticized.

So one Maharastrian brāhmin, he was devotee of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he said that, "This incident gave us much pain, sir. If You kindly meet this sannyāsī and talk with him about Vedānta-sūtra, that would be a nice thing."

In the meantime, one brāhmin came and invited Lord Caitanya that "I have invited all the sannyāsīns of Benares, but I know You do not meet these Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, but still I have come to invite You. If You kindly accept my invitation."

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw this opportunity of meeting Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. He accepted his invitation, and there was a meeting, and there was discussion of Vedānta-sūtra with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, and He converted him to be a Vaisnava. That is another incident.

Hayagrīva: How old is this man?

Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī? He was also old man. Not less than sixty years old. Yes.

Hayagrīva: And what was his role, again, in the town? What was he . . . he was a Vedāntist?

Prabhupāda: Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. He was a Māyāvādī sannyāsī. He accepted Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle and he offered his respect. He touched His feet. And he also joined. But there is no mention that he became officially a Vaiṣṇava, but he accepted the philosophy of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. But Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, officially, he became a Vaiṣṇava. Then Lord Haridāsa meets . . .

Hayagrīva: Fifth scene.

Prabhupāda: Fifth scene.

Hayagrīva: This is Haridāsa Ṭhākura?

Prabhupāda: Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Hayagrīva: At who's death? At Haridāsa's death?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Haridāsa was very old man. He was Muhammadan.

Hayagrīva: He was the person that was thrown in the river.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva: So he finally met his end here, in the fifth scene.

Prabhupāda: We are not meant for those . . . of course, Haridāsa Ṭhākura has a separate life, but that we are not going to show.

Hayagrīva: Yes. All right. This particular incident.

Prabhupāda: Particular incident is significant, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a brāhmin and He was a sannyāsī. According to social custom He should not touch even a Muhammadan, but this Haridāsa Ṭhākura was a Muhammadan, and at his death He took the body Himself and danced, and He put him in the graveyard and distributed prasādam.

And Haridāsa Ṭhākura for two, three days he was feeling not well. Because he was Muhammadan, he did not enter the temple of Jagannātha temple, because the Hindus were very strict. He was devotee, he never mind. Why he should create some row? So Caitanya Mahāprabhu appreciated his behavior that he did not want to create any . . . because he has become devotee. Forcibly he was not going to the temple.

But Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself was daily coming and seeing him. While going to take bath in the sea, He'll first of all see Haridāsa. "Haridāsa? What you are doing?" Haridāsa will offer his respect and He will sit and talk for some time. Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu will go to take His bath. In this way, one day when He came He saw Haridāsa not feeling very well. "Haridāsa? How is your health?" "Yes, Sir, it is not very . . . after all, it is body."

Then the third day He saw that "Haridāsa is going to leave his body today." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked him, "Haridāsa, what do you desire?" Both of them could understand. Haridāsa said that "This is my last stage. If You kindly stand before me." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu stood before him and he left his body. (pause)

Hayagrīva: You mentioned that . . .

Prabhupāda: That after his departure the body was taken by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself, and other devotees took him to the seaside and dug his grave here. That grave area is still in Jagannātha Purī—Haridāsa Ṭhākura's samādhi, tomb. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu began to dance. That was the ceremony. Because in a Vaiṣṇava ceremony, everything is kīrtana and dance. So that was His last ceremony of Haridāsa Ṭhākura.

Hayagrīva: You mentioned something about Caitanya dancing with Haridāsa?

Prabhupāda: Haridāsa's body. Caitanya . . . dead body. Haridāsa's dead body.

Hayagrīva: Oh, with his dead body?

Prabhupāda: Yes. His dead body.

Hayagrīva: After his death.

Prabhupāda: After his death.

Hayagrīva: Caitanya . . .

Prabhupāda: While, I mean to say, Haridāsa was alive, he was dancing. But after the death of Haridāsa, Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself took the body and began to dance with kīrtana. That means his funeral ceremony was conducted by Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself. He took the body to the seaside, and in the graveyard He . . .

Hayagrīva: He conducted the . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Funeral ceremony, yes.

Hayagrīva: With a kīrtana.

Prabhupāda: With kīrtana. Kīrtana is always there. And after burial there was distribution of prasādam and kīrtana. Haridāsa Ṭhākura. So here you have to show some talks with Haridāsa, how feelingly.

Hayagrīva: All right. Are there any other . . . is there any other information about Haridāsa?

Prabhupāda: The life history of Haridāsa is that he was born in a Muhammadan family. Someway or other he became a devotee and was chanting 300,000 times . . . 300,000 times Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu made him ācārya, the authority of chanting. Therefore we glorify him, "Nāmācārya Haridāsa Ṭhākura ki jaya." Because he was made the ācārya, the authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Then, when Lord Caitanya took sannyāsa, Haridāsa Ṭhākura desired that, "My dear Lord, You are going to . . . you are leaving Nabadwip, then what is the use of my life? Either You take me or let me die." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: "No. Why shall you die? You come with Me." So He took him to Jagannātha Purī.

At Jagannātha Purī, because he considered himself born of Muhammadan family, he did not enter. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave him a place at Kāśīnātha Miśra's house, and there he was chanting and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was sending him prasādam. In that way he was passing his days. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come and see him daily, and one day he died like this.

Hayagrīva: All right. That's the end of the fourth act. Now the fifth act . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, the fifth act . . .

Hayagrīva: First scene.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the, in the fifth act, "Ecstasy." At night Caitanya Mahāprabhu would become mad in separation of Kṛṣṇa. He would dash His head on the floor. Sometimes He would write with His nails, and sometimes He would go away. Although the house was locked, He would go away, and sometimes He would be found amongst the cowshed of Jagannātha Purī. Sometimes He would be seen in the seashore.

One day it was so found that He fell in the ocean and some fisherman caught Him on the net. And as soon as He was in the net and the fisherman touched Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he is also began to dance, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare." And his brothers, his fellow men, thought, "Oh, he's caught ghost, haunted."

So in the meantime, His secretary, Dāmodara Svarūpa, came to the seashore and he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand that he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu, (laughs) otherwise why this fisherman is dancing and "Hare Kṛṣṇa"? Then asked him, "What has happened to you?" He said: "Sir, I do not know. I am a fish-catcher. Now this morning I caught one big fish, and as soon as I caught I am haunted. So I am dancing."

So Svarūpa Dāmodara, "Where is that fish, big fish? Let me see." So he saw in the net Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He saw Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he told him, "Yes. I'll chant some mantra so the ghost will go away." So he made him some show. "All right. Now your ghost is over."

So he took away Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and when Caitanya Mahāprabhu saw, He told Svarūpa Dāmodara, "Why you have brought Me in the seaside? Oh, I was seeing rāsa dance of Kṛṣṇa. I was enjoying." In this way He was always in ecstasy.

And in the last stage, the same ecstasy, He entered Jagannātha temple and He never came back. That is the end of . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . so you have to add scenes and sounds. That's all.

Hayagrīva: Uh, now . . . in ecstasy here on the seashore, I don't understand. He met this fisherman. On the seashore?

Prabhupāda: No! He, at night, out of His own accord, He came to the seashore and fell on the sea.

Hayagrīva: Oh, He threw Himself in the ocean.

Prabhupāda: In the ocean. Bay of Bengal. And the fishermen, they came to catch fish. So instead of fish, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's body was in the net.

Hayagrīva: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: He already dropped Himself on the sea.

Hayagrīva: He was unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Unconscious. He was rolling in the sea.

Hayagrīva: So they brought Him out and some of His friends went to find Him.

Prabhupāda: Not all. His secretary. Because he knew that Caitanya must have gone somewhere. So while inquiring where is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when he came to the seashore he saw that the fisherman was dancing. Then he could understand, "He is dancing with Hare Kṛṣṇa, that means he must have some connection with Caitanya Mahāprabhu."

Hayagrīva: Oh.

Prabhupāda: Then when he inquired, he told him that "I have caught this morning a big fish, and since then I am dancing. I do not know. I got mad. Perhaps I have been caught by some ghost. So I do not know." So Svarūpa Dāmodara, just to pacify him, "Yes. I am just driving away ghoul, I mean to say, ghost. Don't worry. Where is that fish? Let me see it." And when he saw that fish was caught in the net, and it was Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Hayagrīva: Now the second scene here, this is when Caitanya on the seashore, this is when He would walk around saying: "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" Is that right? "Where is Kṛṣṇa" He would . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. He was seen on the seashore within the net after being caught by the fisherman. And when He fell on the sea, that is not seen. You can make a scene that Caitanya Mahāprabhu is coming, "Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare . . ." and fall down in the sea. Then He was caught by the net of the fisherman.

Hayagrīva: And what is the second scene?

Prabhupāda: This is the second scene I have described. First scene and second scene.

Hayagrīva: The first scene also.

Prabhupāda: They are all. First, second scene, they are all ecstasies. Yes. And the third scene, similarly . . .

Hayagrīva: Wait. He must be around . . . in His forties now. This is in His forties.

Prabhupāda: Yes. These ecstasies were going on daily from His age thirtieth to forty-eighth year.

Hayagrīva: Thirty-eight to forty-eight, every day.

Prabhupāda: Not thirty-eight. Thirtieth.

Hayagrīva: Thirtieth.

Prabhupāda: Thirty to forty-eight. Eighteen years. Sometimes He was chanting, sometimes He was falling, sometimes He was going there. That was His business all eighteen years.

Hayagrīva: Every day?

Prabhupāda: Every day. Especially at night. (Hayagrīva laughs) Simply . . . the whole program was the whole day He would see the visitors. And so many visitors were coming. In the evening He'll chant and dance in the temple. And at night, instead of sleeping He was doing all these . . . sometimes falling in the sea, sometimes here, sometimes there. That was His business.

Hayagrīva: I see. Now this third scene.

Prabhupāda: Third scene. In the same way, one day when He was forty-eight years old, He entered the Jagannātha temple . . .

Hayagrīva: And disappeared.

Prabhupāda: Disappeared. His friends outside waited and waited, and He never come back. That's all.

Hayagrīva: They never knew what happened to Him. They never found . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they knew that He was Kṛṣṇa; He has merged into the existence of Jagannātha.

Hayagrīva: He left. Took off. All right. Now no more. That's the end.

Prabhupāda: Now you write and I shall make some addition or alteration when you write. This is the synopsis and framework. Now you can proceed. (end)