701213 - Conversation B - Indore

Conversations by Date, 1970

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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701213R2-INDORE - December 13, 1970 - 54:17 Minutes

(The text previously on the page is now: 701214 - Conversation C - Indore)

Prabhupāda: (japa) You have heard about our philosophy? You have heard about our philosophy?

Guest (1) (Indian man): Whatever I have read. But, you see, I don't believe what I have read. I believe only whatever I have talked to you, whatever you have said person to person.

Prabhupāda: No, no, that is another thing. But still, what is your conception of our philosophy? What is that teaching?

Guest (1): Whose? Mine?

Prabhupāda: No, as we are?

Guest (1): No, I have understood what I have heard from you. What is your conception of God I have not understood.

Prabhupāda: Our conception of God is that He is a transcendental person. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Īśvara means Lord. The Supreme Lord is a person. As you are person, He is also person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityānāṁ. He is the leader, and we are all led. Or He is the master; we are the servitors. That is our self-realization, to understand that "I am eternal servant of God."

In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ jīva-loke sanātanaḥ (BG 15.7): "Eternally all the living entities are My parts and parcels." So as the part and parcel of anything is to serve the cause of the whole, similarly, all living entities, their only business is to serve the Supreme. That is our.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, there is one dispute that the ultimate Gītā, as they say, (indistinct) only seven ślokas. The rest of the Gītā is . . . I don't know; this is the concept of . . . amongst the people. Rest of the Gītā has been written by . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the concept amongst the people. Well, if Gītā is written afterwards by Śrī Vyāsa, then . . .

Prabhupāda: Then what?

Guest (1): Then just to prove that ultimate . . . (indistinct) . . . suppose it is my doubt. There was a time for Lord Kṛṣṇa to free Arjuna. All these things. According to me, when Lord Kṛṣṇa was . . . (indistinct) . . . Arjuna got into a trance. If we say that Lord Kṛṣṇa has given the eyes to Arjuna, but those who have not been so much accused, those who have (indistinct). As a matter of fact, Arjuna went to the trouble . . . (indistinct) . . . that trance, what shall we call it? . . . (indistinct) . . . when ātmā goes into the trance, the mind goes into the trance, and into the śuddha-sattva, then he gets the vision of all—past, future and present.

Prabhupāda: First thing that you said that Bhagavad-gītā was given in seven verses, and later on, Vyāsadeva has expanded. Now, suppose accepting that Vyāsadeva has expanded, do you find any difference between Vyāsadeva's explanation and the original seven verses?

Guest (1): No. Of course, that is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then, accepting even that Vyāsadeva has expanded, so there is no difference. Therefore, even if we take the Bhagavad-gītā as it is presented by Vyāsadeva, so there is nothing to be said against it.

Guest (1): Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us only eight verses, Śikṣāṣṭaka. But our Gosvāmīs, they have written volumes of books on that eight verses. But there is no difference of the writings of the Gosvāmīs and the original eight verses. That is not very important thing.

Guest (1): One more, sir. Lord Kṛṣṇa has never asked Arjuna to sit and do this bhajana. He said, uttiṣṭha mām anusmara yuddhya (BG 8.7): "Get up and remember me and fight! And fight! And fight! That fight, that is your right." That is . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. So fight with whom?

Guest (1): "Fight with your enemy."

Prabhupāda: Who is your enemy?

Guest (1): Even physical, bodily, whatever it is, whatever it is. But you must know who are your enemies first. Your enemy may be my friend . . . (indistinct) . . . or my friend, my enemy, your friend. So . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's nice proposal. Unless you find an enemy, how you can fight? (laughs) So of course, we do not say . . . we Vaiṣṇavas do not say that there is no need of fighting. We never say. When there is need of fighting we must fight. Rather, somebody in New York, some Goldsmith, he was, "Why Kṛṣṇa is advising Arjuna to fight, to become violent?" So somebody protests like that.

But there is no meaning of protesting against the action of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is our view. So we Vaiṣṇavas, we are chanting. It does not mean that when there is need of fighting with avaiṣṇava we shall lack in strength. We can fight. One gentleman inquired from me that "Vaiṣṇavism makes one dull. He cannot act." and, "No. You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava." In the two fightings, great fighting, the Rāmāyaṇa and Mahābhārata, the hero was Hanuman and Arjuna, and they fought.

Guest (1): They fought.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And who can be better Vaiṣṇava than them?

Guest (1): Nobody.

Prabhupāda: So Vaiṣṇava does not mean he is dull. No.

Guest (1): No, that is well proved. If there is need . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our present fighting is atheism, against atheism. They say: "There is no God," "God is dead." "I am God. You are God." We are fighting against these principles. So our fighting is very strong. You don't think that we are keeping idly. I have come here to fight with these atheists, you see, and we go everywhere.

We are fighting with atheists all over the world. So we are meeting so many opposing elements. You see? They say: "God is dead." In America, when I first went, they were popularizing theory that, "God is dead." But they again accepted and: God is not only dead, but He is here with Swāmījī." They accepted.

So these atheistic theories that, "Everyone is God," "I am God," "You are God," "God is dead," "There is no God," "God is not person"—we are fighting against these principles. We say: "God is Kṛṣṇa. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa. He is a person, and He is not dead." This is our preaching. Therefore it is a fight.

Guest (1): He is not dead. He is not dead.

Prabhupāda: How He can be dead? How you can think of like that, that God is dead? That is foolishness.

Guest (1): If you say God is dead, that means you are . . . that is your own ignorance . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So we are fighting against this ignorance, so many ignorance. And at the present moment so many theories and religious principles have sprung up unnecessarily. You see? But we are sticking to the principle that the only religion is to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is real religion: surrender.

Guest (1): Complete surrender. Complete surrender.

Prabhupāda: Complete surrender. That is real religion. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityjya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are Kṛṣṇa's words. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Prapadyate—that is surrender. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). These words are there.

Guest (1): I like only the last ślokas (indistinct), where Lord Kṛṣṇa analyzes and then Arjuna . . . (indistinct) . . . but to bring that mind and your ātmā together, that process is called yoga.

Prabhupāda: But you know that Kṛṣṇa said, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntarātmanā (BG 6.47): "Of all the yogīs, one who is always thinking of Me within his mind, he is first class." Do you accept this?

Guest (1): Of all the yoginām?

Prabhupāda: Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of all the yogīs . . ." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. That is the last verse of the yoga chapter, sāṅkhya-yoga chapter. Yoginām . . . when Arjuna said that "This practice of aṣṭāṅga-yoga is not possible for me."

Guest (1): No, of course not.

Prabhupāda: No, he said. When he said like that, Kṛṣṇa answered, "Yes, but if you practice, it can be possible. But still, anyone . . ." He summarized the whole yoga process, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: "Of all yogīs, anyone who is thinking of Me always, he is the first-class yogī."

Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Why do you say karma-yoga? Where you get this?

Guest (1): "Whatever you do." "Whatever you do." It is not written that you should do the aṣṭāṅga-yoga.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that "Anyone who is always thinking . . ." Karma-yogi also always thinks of Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Kṛṣṇa within his mind. Premāñjana-cchurita . . . that is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā.

Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). This kind of practice of yoga can be done by a unalloyed devotee. Premāñjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is . . . that is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ātmā, are you not? That's not correct. Mind is not ātmā.

Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ātmā. No. Whatever you say, the ātmā and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, mind fixed up in ātmā. That's nice. But mind is not ātmā.

Guest (1): No, no.

Prabhupāda: Mind is matter, subtle matter.

Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws. It can be destroyed.

Prabhupāda: Mind is kind of fume of the ātmā. So mind becomes . . . changes the color of the fume according to the state of the ātmā. If the ātmā is in pure state, then mind is pure. If the ātmā is impure state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our disciples, satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ (BG 9.14), always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ.

Guest (1): Satataṁ kīrtayanto yo māṁ . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Dṛḍha-vratāḥ: "One who is always chanting about Me and endeavoring with great determination to reach Me, he is mahātmā."

Guest (1): As you have said, nāhaṁ tiṣṭhāmi vaikuṇṭhe yogināṁ hṛdayeṣu vā mad-bhakteṣ . . .

Prabhupāda: Tiṣṭhāmi. That's it. Therefore a devotee's position is sublime. Kṛṣṇa comes as a devotee also. Actually this happened. Haridāsa Ṭhākura, he happened to be a Muhammadan, Lord Caitanya's devotee. So in those days, five hundred years ago, there was some Hindu-Muslim . . . still that is going on.

So he did not, went to Jagannātha temple to create some disturbance. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also did not ask him that, "You go to Jagannātha temple. Who can check it?" Of course, if Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, he would have gone. Neither he wanted to go, neither Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, "You must go." Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to come to him. Tatra tiṣṭhāmi nārada yatra gāyanti mad-bhaktāḥ. This is the practical. He came to the devotee where he was chanting.

So instead of approaching God, if you chant, God will approach you. That is a fact, we see. Instead of Haridāsa Ṭhākura going to Jagannātha, Jagannātha Himself was coming to him. Every day Lord Caitanya would come and ask and sit down, "How you are feeling? What you are doing?" Then He would go to take bath in Samudra. Daily.

It was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's . . . and when Haridāsa Ṭhākura expired, He personally took the body and cremated on the bank of the Samudra, and He performed the funeral ceremony. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was so . . . and he was given the title nāmācārya, "authority of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra."

Very nice that you are cultivating this knowledge. It is very nice. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). This cultivation of spiritual knowledge means perfection of life. But people do not try for it. Therefore Gītā says, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: "Out of many thousands of men, one may try to cultivate knowledge for spiritual advancement." And yatatām api siddhānāṁ (BG 7.3): "Out of many such persons who are cultivating spiritual knowledge, hardly one can understand what is Kṛṣṇa."

Guest (1): Very correct. Very correct. To understand Him is a lot.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is liberation. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). To understand Kṛṣṇa . . . nobody can understand Kṛṣṇa, but still, to such an extent if one can understand Him, then he immediately becomes liberated. Immediately. And not to speak of developing his love of Kṛṣṇa, simply by knowledge, by real knowledge if one understands Kṛṣṇa, oh, that is sufficient to make him liberated. And those who are devotees, for them liberation is very insignificant. Muktir mukulitāñjaliḥ sevate 'sman (Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura).

Guest (1): On the first day of this inauguration, I was there, and there were definitions about karma-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the governor. (laughter) Just see. He is speaking of karma-yoga. Slaughtering ten thousand cows, that is karma-yoga. This nonsense speaking of karma-yoga.

Guest (1): So I shall present . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: The governor became little perturbed. (chuckles) He wanted to go immediately. You were present? And when the other men began to speak all hodgepodge . . .

Guest (1): I like your one sentence that day, "Whatever is according to the śāstras is the karma, that is correct. I agree to it." Nobody says that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.

Guest (1): That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: Karma done does not mean that you manufacture something and it becomes a karma.

Guest (1): It is written, whatever, in śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was just going to explain all this karma, vikarma, akarma.

Guest (1): What does he know? (laughs)

Prabhupāda: In India, the land of sages, land of Kṛṣṇa, land of Lord Rāmacandra, land of Mahārāja Parīkṣit, without any restriction cow slaughter is going on. And they are speaking of karma-yoga. Just see the fun.

Guest (1): I don't know where this India is going to, the land of Kṛṣṇa is going to.

Prabhupāda: Well . . . no, we should try our best.

Guest (1): We have to fight these habits. It is our duty.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. So you are a military man. I request you to fight against this nonsense.

Guest (1): Swāmī, I wish you could come sometime. I will gather section of some people, and do some . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll go. I'll go. Where? Just fix up some time.

Guest (1): Because I am very near to temple, only 100 yards, 200 yards.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That Takat? Takat?

Guest (1): No, not Takat . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see, oh. We are thinking of having a branch near that Takat, in that Takat colony. What is your idea? Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness center. Is that a good locality?

Guest (1): I'll tell you. I will fight Tukori . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: All right. No, no. Think twice before doing.

Haṁsadūta: Tuesday morning, December 15th?

Guest (1): Tuesday morning? Morning, I have to go to a village somewhere.

Prabhupāda: You give them after seven.

Guest (1): Ah, no, whenever opportunity.

Prabhupāda: All right, then make . . .

Haṁsadūta: Evenings are all engaged.

Prabhupāda: Oh, evenings are . . . but evenings up to which date?

Haṁsadūta: Seven to nine p.m . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Tuesday?

Haṁsadūta: Up to the sixteenth.

Prabhupāda: Up to the sixteenth?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Then probably on the seventeenth we may go. Nothing fixed up, but there is chance. Every chance, because we are thinking of an appointment with the Prime Minister in Delhi by the eighteenth, so if that is fixed up, then we have to start.

Haṁsadūta: How about in the afternoon?

Guest (1): (discusses date for engagement with Haṁsadūta)

Prabhupāda: Is there any engagement, for . . .?

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: When?

Haṁsadūta: (discusses date for engagement with guest) How about Tuesday afternoon. Three to four.

Guest (1): Tuesday afternoon.

Yamunā: Fifteenth is the disappearance day of His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

Prabhupāda: Fifteenth is disappearance day? Oh, then we have to perform.

Haṁsadūta: What shall we do? Fast?

Prabhupāda: We shall fast up till twelve and then offer puṣpāñjali and then chant, as far as we can supply.

Guest (1): So Tuesday afternoon from three to four.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You write his name.

Haṁsadūta: May I have your name?

Guest (1): Major Ghun N. Suley.

Haṁsadūta: Major . . .

Guest (1): Ghun N. Suley.

Prabhupāda: You are Maharastrian.

Guest (1): Yes . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Telephone?

Prabhupāda: Maharastrians, they are fighting nation.

Haṁsadūta: Telephone? Telephone? Telephone? You have telephone?

Prabhupāda: Telephone? Telephone?

Guest (1): Telephone, no, I haven't got. My office telephone is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Maharastrian spirit and Bengali spirit, almost . . .

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . (indistinct)

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. These boys also, from their childhood they are addicted to so many things. Gave up immediately.

Guest (1): That's nice.

Prabhupāda: Immediately on my word they gave up.

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Meat-eaters, they have been described by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita in a verse. I . . .

Guest (1): Though we are kṣatriyas, but nobody takes meat in our house.

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas are allowed to take meat by hunting, not by slaughterhouse. Not all, but some of them.

Guest (1): When you can't get anything to eat, then only you can do that. You are (indistinct) or not?

Prabhupāda: I have been . . . (indistinct) . . . not in my sannyāsa stage. Long ago accepted sannyāsa.

Guest (1): Which year?

Prabhupāda: Some times in 1945.

Guest (1): Are you going there now this month?

Prabhupāda: No, I can go everywhere if the arrangement is . . . Aiye.

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct)

Yamunā: Janaka Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Cāṇakya, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. He was a great politician and Brahmin.

Yamunā: Was he in Lord Caitanya's time?

Prabhupāda: No, no. He was five thousand years ago. Not . . . three thousand years.

Haṁsadūta: He was a great devotee?

Devotee: No.

Haṁsadūta: No?

Guest (1): He was politician. He was a mathematician, greatest.

Prabhupāda: He was very learned scholar, Brahmin, rigid Brahmin. That's all.

Guest (1): He was insulted once in boyhood by something of Mahātmānanda.

Prabhupāda: Nanda.

Guest (1): Then he took oath that, "All right, today I turn my (indistinct), and one day I will dethrone you from here. Then you can call me Cāṇakya," and he went away . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Great determination.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yamunā: He wasn't a great devotee?

Prabhupāda: No.

Yamunā: So he's not authority.

Prabhupāda: No, no, he was not authority in the spiritual sense. He was a politician—moralist, politician. That's all. Worldly man.

Haṁsadūta: How many people will be there?

Guest (1): Swāmījī, you were telling something?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I don't find . . . (break) . . . vanaṁ sattvaṁ na durjante, sattva vasanti, tad eva ca durjanas tu pade pade. This is another verse.

Guest (1): (Sanskrit)

Prabhupāda: So we made some Life Member. Is there any possibility of getting . . . enrolling some Life Member? That . . .?

Guest (1): Life Member for . . .?

Prabhupāda: For this institution. We want some Life Members. Otherwise, how we can conduct this institution? . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Telegram, shall I open it?

Prabhupāda: Telegram? New telegram? Or reply?

Haṁsadūta: I think it was a return. A reply about . . .

Prabhupāda: Who sent?

Haṁsadūta: Gita Bhavan Sect, Gita Bhavan Marg, Indore. "Please advise definite arrival time Surat. Very anxious. Janwal, care of . . . (indistinct) . . ." That's how he replied.

Prabhupāda: So there we are already engaged. We cannot go Surat immediately. Let us follow that.

Haṁsadūta: We don't . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his version. Version.

Haṁsadūta: (indistinct) . . . I think we can send at no cost.

Prabhupāda: There is no cost. No. You simply, you present the . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: So what is the program here?

Prabhupāda: Never mind. "Due to heavy engagement, cannot go Surat immediately. Letter follows."

Devotee (2): Motorcycle . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Oh, yes?

Prabhupāda: Are you sure, that motorcycle? That? To go and come back here for attending meeting here? By train? How far it is?

Haṁsadūta: About fifteen minutes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. That's all.

Haṁsadūta: So we'll be back by 10:30. No, no, we won't take any prasādam that day. We are fasting till noon because it is the appearance day of our Guru Mahārāja's spiritual master.

Yamunā: Disappearance.

Haṁsadūta: Disappearance? Oh. We won't be taking anything at all. Nothing.

Prabhupāda: Up to twelve we don't take. Fast.

Guest (1): (indistinct) . . . in my house?

Prabhupāda: Whatever arrangement you do, that's all right. But if some of you members become our Life Members, that will be . . .

Haṁsadūta: Have you seen our books? Would you like to see?

Prabhupāda: So shall I explain? (break) . . . the footprints of liberated predecessors like Manu and others. So they are conditioned. Therefore their rules and regulation are not perfect. It cannot be perfect.

Haṁsadūta: Here is our monthly magazine, Back to Godhead. These are our . . . (indistinct) . . . this is in Washington, D.C. This is in Berkeley, California. That magazine is being printed in six languages: Hindi, English, French, German and Japanese and Bengali . . . Bengali is not yet out, but it's coming. Then Prabhupāda started presenting these books when he was still in India.

And this book was published in 1965. This was printed in India, the First Canto of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The First Canto comprises three volumes like this, the First Canto. And then the following cantos are being printed by our own press in America, in Boston, like this, chapter by chapter, so that people can take advantage of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and read it at their convenience instead of being . . .

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: And here, Kṛṣṇa book, is the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Prabhupāda calls it, Kṛṣṇa: The Supreme Personality of Godhead. And it's full of illustrations which are done by his American students. Just see how beautiful. There are eighty-four full-color illustrations that show the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa.

So the people in the Western world, for the first time in the history of the world, will get an idea of who God is, what He looks like, what He does, where He's residing. This is the Kṛṣṇa book and this is in two volumes. This is volume number one and this is volume number two. This is just a blueprint. We haven't got the printed copy yet. Then Prabhupāda has presented these Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Caitanya-caritāmṛta, which you must be familiar with, in the form of the teachings of Lord Caitanya. And there are also illustrations, although they're not color; they're black and white.

Guest (1): Śrī Tukārāma is disciple of Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: He also went through in Maharastra by His chanting, kīrtana.

Guest (1): . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: And most important, Prabhupāda has presented Bhagavad-gītā. He calls it Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. He explains in the introduction that till now there's been so many Bhagavad-gitas printed in all languages, and all of them are misrepresenting. They have not presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They are trying to present Kṛṣṇa . . . or Bhagavad-gītā without Kṛṣṇa. They want to leave out the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā and put themselves forward. So Prabhupāda has presented Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and therefore this movement has taken such hold, because the real thing is being presented.

This is in San Francisco, California. And then, the Nectar of Devotion, Rūpa Gosvāmī's book Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, also there with illustrations. This book is the law book of devotional service. Then Īśopaniṣad, mantras and transliteration, word-for-word translation, then the complete English translation and purport by His Divine Grace. So these books are . . . (indistinct) . . . bhakti-yoga . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . (indistinct) . . . explaining the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

So we have so much literature. And in India we've introduced a program, our membership program, so that we can go on distributing these literatures. And that membership program, there are four memberships, types of membership. One is Life Membership. Life Membership means the member is entitled to all the books that we have printed, plus all the books we will print in the future, plus a lifetime subscription to our magazine, Back to Godhead. And the member is entitled to stay at any one of our branches throughout the world free, and if he happens to travel abroad. Or in India we will have our branches. So that Life Membership fee is 1,111 rupees.

And then we have Donor Membership. The Donor Member is entitled to all the books that have been printed, a lifetime subscription to our magazine, but he does not get the books in the future. That is 555 rupees. And Subscriber Membership, lifetime subscription to our magazine, which is 222 rupees. And ordinary membership, yearly subscription to our magazine. In this way we're trying to recruit members that support our movement. This movement is being supported just by literature.

And in this way we can flood the whole world with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and then there'll be a change. If we want to see a change in the world, then we have to distribute knowledge of Kṛṣṇa in this way. You are welcome to become a member. And also your friends. Tell them about our membership programs.

Guest (1): Swāmījī, open a center here also.

Prabhupāda: I wish to. I wish to open a center.

Guest (1): No, no, now?

Prabhupāda: Not yet.

Guest (1): And how many centers in India?

Prabhupāda: Practically, three.

Guest (1): Swami, did you come across these Brahma-kumārīs? They preach something else.

Prabhupāda: That is something else. Everyone knows it.

Guest (1): Once they . . . I was in . . . (indistinct) . . . so they were passing through, teaching some Kṛṣṇa or something, and their Bhagavad-gita was something else. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That is going on. (break)

Guest (1): Bhajans, kīrtana and, er . . .

Prabhupāda: There may be musical performance, but here it is by the pure devotees. That is different thing. Now, here don't you see in the Gītā Bhavan? When others perform kīrtana, nobody takes part. And they cannot continue that kīrtana more than five minutes. But we can continue our kīrtana for five hours without any . . .

Haṁsadūta: If we stayed there for five hours, everyone would chant. (indistinct conversation with guest)

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, mahā-mantra they can also do, but it will not be effective, because they are not pure. Here is the secret. We have . . . our devotees, they are anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11), they have no other business than to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. They perform kīrtana to take something from Kṛṣṇa. Everyone goes to some dharma-saṁsthāna just to take something. But our proposition is to give everything for Kṛṣṇa, and that is far different.

Haṁsadūta: And everyone is pleased with the devotees. Everybody.

Guest (2) (Indian man): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That when you do, I shall tell you. (laughter) Now why do you waste your time in that way? That's all right; you are not doing. So you have no business.

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . of course, I am not doing, but . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . everything has meaning. This is called vṛddha. This is called yoni. This is madhyama. This is anāvṛtta and this is kaniṣṭha. (indistinct conversation with guests) We have done it . . . (indistinct conversation) . . . hmm. Curtain now closed?

Haṁsadūta: 4 O'clock.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So he has gone to Calcutta. (break) . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)