701231- Lecture SB 06.01.45-50 - Surat

Lectures by Date, 1970

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

701231SB-SURAT - December 31, 1970 - 72:55 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

dharmo veha samīhitaḥ

sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte

tathā tāvad amutra vai

(SB 6.1.45)

So as you have understood that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19) . . . dharma, it is explained further what is meant by dharma. Dharma means natural characteristics. Dharma does not mean something sentiment. No. The people are taking sentimental value—"I believe in this." "I believe in Hinduism," "I believe in Christianism," "I believe in Muhammadanism." But dharma is not like that. Now today you are Christian; you can change to Hinduism, or a Christian can turn into Muhammadanism.

So you can change it, so after all you can change—that is not dharma. Try to understand this important point. That is not dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). You cannot change anything which is made by the Supreme Lord. Just like, take for example, the sun is rising from the eastern horizon. You cannot say, "Let the sun be rising from the western horizon." That you cannot say.

You cannot improve with any law of God or nature. That is not possible. Supreme dharma is sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. If it is the order or the injunction of the Supreme Lord, how you can change it? The dharma which you can change, that is not dharma. And dharma is eternal to Kṛṣṇa: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). That is dharma. And all others, cheating. That is . . . I am not speaking these strong words; it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Cheating.

Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2), the cheating religion is completely swept away, projjhita . . . (indistinct) . . . just like one uses broomstick to drive away all the garbage things from the room, similarly, the Bhāgavata says dharmaḥ projjhita, the garbage cheating process of religious system is completely thrown away. And that garbage system of religion is also remarked by Śrīdhara Svāmī as mokṣa-vāñchā, desperation of becoming liberated. That is also cheating. So dharma cannot change.

Now I have decided to inform you in your city I have seen two temples, they are known as Rāmānandī, and there is no Rāma.

(audience chuckles)

Prabhupāda: You see? This cheating is going on, and you are accepting. There is no Rāma, there is no Rāma Deity worship, and the main . . . (indistinct) . . . is to see Rāma. Just see. And people are so foolish, they do not take care. This is going on. In Indore I have been in the Gītā Bhavan, and so many nonsense things are going on. Another, I . . . make a Gītā committee; there is not a single figure of Kṛṣṇa. It's . . . (indistinct) . . . in the name of dharma.

Ah . . . last night the boy was informing me that some Bhagavad-gītā is going to be distributed, made by some svāmī. But according to Bhagavad-gītā that svāmījī is a fool number one. According to Bhagavad-gītā. And he is distributing Bhagavad-gītā, and people are accepting, "dhanyavat svāmī." This is going on.

So it is a very serious situation all over the world that in the name of dharma so many other nonsense, in the name of dharma. But the point is, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma is made of the injunction by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How it can be changed according to your whims? You cannot change the law of God.

Yesterday I gave you the example, nobody can change. The big, big ocean is there. I was . . . when I was in California, especially in Los Angeles, I was going every day on the seashore, big ocean, Pacific Ocean. Big, big waves, but it cannot transgress the line, the beach, I have seen. I was just walking, say, a few yards from the sea, and the waves were coming, but they could not touch even my shoe. But it can, if the waves like, easily immediately they can engulf the whole city. Sometimes it does so, that's a fact. But no, it is order of Kṛṣṇa, "You cannot do it. You cannot do that."

So similarly . . . (indistinct) . . . seer of these material activities you will find that the rising of the sun, by . . . at night, and by calculation the sun rises at such-and-such time, 5.30 here. You cannot change it before 5:30 nor after 5:30. It is so strict. And the astronomical calculation of the earth is so many that they can divide one minute into some thousand parts, and still we find that everything is exactly in the same part, same position. That is the law of God. You cannot check. Otherwise, what is the meaning of God? Eh? But they are claiming that, "I am God, Rāma." Everyone becomes Rāma, everyone becomes Kṛṣṇa. This is going on.

And people do not ask it that, "If you are Rāma, show something. Rāma constructed bridge over the ocean. What you have done first rate? Kṛṣṇa, at the age of seven years old, He lifted one big hill. What you have done?" But when these things are there, they say it is fiction, it is legend, and actually nonsense of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. This is going on. And they will have to suffer, as here it is stated that yena yāvān yathādharmo dharmo veha samīhitaḥ (SB 6.1.45).

As it is stated what is dharma and adharma, in the Vedas. Sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte: one has to enjoy or suffer according to the injunction. Tathā tāvad amutra vai. If somebody assumes, "Just let me have adharma . . ." just like Cārvāka Muni, atheist philosophy is like that. They don't care for dharma and adharma. Their philosophy is, yāvaj jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet: so long you live, hedonism, you live your best sense gratification process. Yāvan jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet, ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet. Living in India, ghee is a very luxurious food, so everyone wants to eat ghee. But if you have no money, he says, ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet ("Beg, borrow, steal—eat ghee.").

But according to karma, if you have many debts and if you do not repay, then you will have to suffer, according to karma. That is atheist will say, yāvan jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet ṛṇaṁ kṛtvā ghṛtaṁ pibet: "Then if I cannot repay my debts, then I will have to suffer? Oh, this is all nonsense." Bhasmī-bhūtasya dehasya kutaḥ punar-āgamano bhavet: "Oh, when your body will be burned down, who will come and take it away?" This is the situation. They don't believe in the transmigration of the soul, they do not believe in the śāstras, they don't believe in the Vedas, they don't care for God. This is going on.

But here it is said that sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte tathā tāvad amutra vai (SB 6.1.45). Not only here . . . just like here also it is said here that, "I am a debtor, and if I do not pay, I will be arrested or I will be punished by the courts, by the law." And there it is said that sa tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte, that as you cheat, as you suffer in this life, similarly, tathā tāvat amutra vai, similarly one has to suffer in the next life.

Because life is eternal, and we are changing our body, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). These things are not discussed amongst so-called educated person, that life is continuous; we are changing bodies every moment; therefore we have to change this body and have to accept another body and another accept another body. Suppose I am sitting in this room, if I change this room I go to another room, that does not mean that I have become free from all my obligations.

These theories are going on. Tāvat, tathā tāvat amutra vai. Now if the Cārvāka Muni is asked that "Where do you get this statement?" He will say: "It is my opinion," and the people will accept it. But what you are? Why your opinion should be accepted? They do not know. "I think it is like this," and write volumes of books, nonsense, inferior subjects. This is going on.

And especially in this day and age, Kali-yuga, this system is very, very prominent, and therefore people are suffering. Most suffering in this age, Kali-yuga. Prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ (SB 1.1.10) . . . (indistinct) . . . certainly it means their duration of life is reducing daily. You can see it: your forefather lived for hundred years, ninety years, and now it is very difficult to find a man who is living for ninety years or eighty years.

Their memory is reducing; their, I mean, capacity to give in charity, that is reducing. Just like I enquired from the president of . . . (indistinct) . . . we requested that if he can become a Life Member, but they cannot; they have no sufficient money. And they say that, "We are the most intelligent men." The intelligent men means he is the poor, poorer. That is Kali-yuga.

Upadrutāḥ. Manda-bhāgyāḥ. This age of Kali is mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). These are the symptoms of the persons in this age. First of all they are mandāḥ, they are very, very slow. Just like in this human form of life we have got so many responsibilities, self-realization, but they don't care for it. Just like animals, simply they are serious about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that's all. They have no other responsibilities, they think. These are . . . the symptoms are there in the Bhāgavatam, dākṣyaṁ kuṭumba-bharaṇaṁ (SB 12.2.6). If one man can maintain his family, his wife and two, three children, he is understood to be a very great man.

Dākṣyaṁ. There is no question of performing sacrifices, charity; these are forgotten things. Simply if one is married and has, I mean, able to maintain his wife and children, "Ah, he's very prosperous." This is the standard of prosperity in this age, and therefore we find there is no marriage, no family. I have traveled these European countries; mostly, eighty-five percent, there is no marriage, no family.

This is the position of the Kali-yuga. No home. There are many persons who have . . . who are thinking . . . actually they are rich; they have got very big income, they are getting very big money, but they do not know how to live. As soon as they are getting money, they are injuriously purchasing some liquor bottles.

So this is the position of the . . . mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). And religious means that religious: some false religious principal such as one who is teaching people will . . . (indistinct) . . . if somebody says, "No, it is sinful," "Oh, what is this? This is all wrong." Children. But he does not know, as it is stated here: sa eva tat-phalaṁ bhuṅkte tathā tāvad amutra vai (SB 6.1.45). It is not that . . . he is suffering in this life; he will have to continue in the next life.

yatheha deva-pravarās

trai-vidhyam upalabhyate

bhūteṣu guṇa-vaicitryāt

tathānyatrānumīyate

(SB 6.1.46)

Hypothesis. Hypothesis, just as I was explaining just the other day: the man is dying; so you can conjecture that this man is going to have such-and-such body by the direction of the śāstras. By the direction of the śāstra. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva . . . yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). If you worship these demigods . . . that is the statement in the śāstra, Vedic literature, that if you want such-and-such material benefit, then you have to worship such-and-such god.

They are not . . . (indistinct) . . . they are . . . (indistinct) . . . but now they are claiming that, "I can worship any demigod, the result will be the same. I can do anything and everything; it has nothing to do with religion," and these things are being preached by big, big svāmīs. You see? Big, big svāmīs.

So here it is stated . . . it is stated that yathā iha deva-pravarāḥ. The Viṣṇudūtas are addressed in a very respectful way, deva-pravarāḥ, "the best of the demigods." Because their bodily features were just like Nārāyaṇa, so they are addressed as devatā. Trai-vidhyam upalabhyate. Trai-vidhyam. Trai-vidhyam means the three, how you say, modes of material nature. Everyone is under the material nature.

Just like animal. Animal is under the modes of ignorance. They do not know that, "I am standing on the road. The motorcars, they come and drive me with very . . ." I mean to say, without any anxiety it is standing there. That is animal. The danger . . . just like in the slaughterhouse, one animal is being killed, and the other animal, he is engaged in eating grass. I've seen it, not in the slaughterhouse but in the temple . . . Goddess Kālī temple. There were two goats standing, one was being killed and another goat was eating grass. This is animal, that next danger immediately, but he does not know. This is animal life.

So why this trai-vidhyam? Because he is under the modes of material nature, as acknowledged. Those who are in the modes of passion, they are a little . . . (indistinct) . . . and those who are in the modes of goodness, they can see what is going on—what is going on in my this life; what I am going to have next life . . . (indistinct) . . . everything is illusion. Trai-vidhya. Trai-vidhya means three classes of men, and next first class, three, the men in goodness, men in passion, men in ignorance and men in mixed.

So these things are going on. Here it is said that trai-vidhyam upalabhyate bhūteṣu guṇa-vaicitryāt. There are varieties of the modes of material nature, guṇa-vaicitryāt. And we are claiming that "Everyone is God. Everyone is the same. Why this man should be like that, this man . . ."

But they . . . they do not know that every one of us is under the control of the material nature, daivī hy eṣā (BG 7.14), prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). Guṇaiḥ, the guṇa, if you associate with the good . . . modes of goodness, then you can change the guṇa. That is also possible. Otherwise, what is the use of this sat-saṅga? If one is serious about changing his position, then he has to change his present quality to the higher quality.

Just like these boys. Their quality, previous, before, was different; now their quality is different. That can be done. That I have explained already, that . . . (indistinct) . . . just like a diseased man can be cured, provided he undergoes the discipline system prescribed by the physician. He can be cured. It is not that he cannot . . . it is uncurable. Curable. Everything is there. The śāstra is there, the treatment is there, then everything is there; it can be done.

This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that it can cure all kinds of . . . (indistinct) . . . all kinds of diseases. That is a special . . . kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya. That is also stated in the śāstra: simply by chanting Kṛṣṇa's name, mukta-saṅga, he becomes freed from all the three qualities of this material nature.

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

It is so nice. Simply by taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . . and practically you can see that. It is not story. Our Indian people rejected, "You have stolen our religion," like that, but you can see practically how it is being effective in the Western countries. It can be changed.

bhūteṣu guṇa-vaicitryāt

tathānyatrānumīyate

(SB 6.1.46)

All various varieties of living entities under the influence of three kinds of material modes of nature. Similarly, in the next life also you can understand, anumīyate, you can get conjecture or you can imagine that next life he is going to have such-and-such body, such-and-such . . . there is evidence, any intelligent man. How it is done, that is also . . . example is given here:

vartamāno 'nyayoḥ kālo

guṇābhijñāpako yathā

(SB 6.1.47)

Kālaḥ, time . . . (indistinct) . . . evaṁ janma . . .

evaṁ janmānyayor etad

dharmādharma-nidarśanam

(SB 6.1.47)

All . . . (indistinct) . . . conjecture, that in the such-and-such period, such and such . . . (indistinct) . . . will take place. It is not astrology, but according to science, according to the reaction of the modes of material nature, things have to . . . just like in winter season anyone can say that in New York or . . . (indistinct) . . . there will be snowfall between such-and-such months.

It is not astrology, but everyone knows that when the modes of material nature will react in such-and-such time, it will be effective in such-and-such way. It is not very difficult; everyone knows, anyone can suggest also. They become, I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . that, "Now the snowfall is coming down, and we have to make arrangements for the tire, make arrangement for the . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Here it is stated like that:

vartamāno 'nyayoḥ kālo

guṇābhijñāpako yathā

evaṁ janmānyayor etad

dharmādharma-nidarśanam

(SB 6.1.47)

As you can suggest that in such-and-such period, such-and-such things will happen and they take place, similarly, one who is following strictly the codes of dharma and one who is not following the codes of dharma . . . following the codes of adharma . . . you can, I mean any of us, you can suggest that this person will have such-and-such body, this person will have such and such. It requires little intelligence, that's all. It is not blind, but people have lost their intelligence; they cannot judge.

That is the position of . . . mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). Sumanda-matayo. Mandāḥ, mandāḥ means slowest in everything: in age, duration of life, in intelligence, in compassion. That has been broken in this age. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo.

evaṁ janmānyayor etad

dharmādharma-nidarśanam

(SB 6.1.47)

manasaiva pure devaḥ

pūrva-rūpaṁ vipaśyati

anumīmāṁsate 'pūrvaṁ

manasā bhagavān ajaḥ

(SB 6.1.48)

So as we have already mentioned that there are many witnesses in the laws of nature, similarly, the Paramātmā is sitting within your heart, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 18.61). He's also witness, He is also witnessing your activities, and according to your activities, according to your desire, according to your reaction of activities, you will have a type of body. You will have a type of body.

That is also stated in the Third Canto, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). You are working. You are working, but you are working for your next body. Similarly, if you work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your next body is going to be Kṛṣṇa conscious . . . (indistinct) . . . that is in Vaikuṇṭha. That is the opportunity. You can do that in this human form of life. It is not possible to be done by the animals.

Manasaiva pure devaḥ. Pure devaḥ, devaḥ, devaḥ means the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Yamarāja. Yamarāja has got such power that he can see in everyone's heart what kind of psychological reaction is going on. As the devaḥ, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Paramātmā, He can know, similarly Yamarāja also can know. And pūrva-rūpaṁ vipaśyati . . . (indistinct) . . . apūrva, pūrva. Pūrva means the body which you had previously. This is called tri-kāla-jñā. Those who are advanced very much, they can see tri-kāla.

There is an astronomical calculation called Bhṛgu-saṁhitā. In the Bhṛgu-saṁhitā, if you have consulted the Bhṛgu-saṁhitā, you will find the calculation of your three lives, what you were in your previous life, what is going to happen in this life, and what is going to happen in the next life. So the previous life is called pūrva, pūrva-jiva . . . and the present is called cakṣur- jiva, and what you are going to have, that is called apūrva-jiva. Apūrva means you have . . . (indistinct) . . . such body.

This body, suppose you are Mr. Such-and-such, your bodily constitution is such; this is finished in this life. You will never get such body again. Therefore it is called apūrva. You get once a chance for having a particular type of body, and when this is finished, then you cannot imagine that you will get another body like . . . exactly like that. That is not possible.

So the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Paramātmā, and Yamarāja, he also knows what kind of body has to be offered to this man. Apūrva.

manasaiva pure devaḥ

pūrva-rūpaṁ vipaśyati

anumīmāṁsate 'pūrvaṁ

(SB 6.1.48)

Anumīmāṁsate. Now anumīmāṁsate, this man is working like this, so he has to accept a body like this. This is called apūrvam anumīmāṁsate. Manasā bhagavān ajaḥ.

yathājñas tamasā yukta

upāste vyaktam eva hi

na veda pūrvam aparaṁ

naṣṭa-janma-smṛtis tathā

(SB 6.1.49)

But so far we are concerned, as we have forgotten what was my previous body, even in this life . . . suppose when I was a baby on the lap of my mother. Several things happened that I do not know what it is. Is it not? I cannot remember what I was doing, how I was acting when I had that body, that small body, baby.

But because it has left. So as in this life you cannot remember, how you can remember about the body of your previous life? Similarly, you cannot answer, conjecture, that what is going to happen in your next life. Yathājñas tamasā yukta. Ajñaḥ, you are born foolish, abhodha-jātaḥ (SB 5.5.5), everyone ajñaḥ. Yathājñas tamasā yukta. Why ajñaḥ? Why this foolish?

(disturbing sound) (aside) What is that noise?

Devotees: . . . (indistinct conversation)

Prabhupāda: I see.

yathājñas tamasā yukta

upāste vyaktam eva hi

na veda pūrvam aparaṁ

naṣṭa-janma-smṛtis tathā

(SB 6.1.49)

Naṣṭa-janma-smṛtis. As soon as we . . . just like in dream also. When we dream that I have got a body which is flying, at that time you cannot remember that "Actually I am not this body. I'm dreaming," and that, "I have got a body that is lying on the bed." But you cannot remember. Just try to understand. As soon as you dream, you get a body, you forget this body, so how you can remember your past body? Dream also changes, just like this is also another dream. You are thinking that you are awakened, but so long you are covered by the modes of material nature, surely you are dreaming.

This is another kind of dream. As you dream at night while sleeping, the so-called awakening is also dreaming, unless one is in full knowledge that upāste vyaktam eva hi, and we have to act according to that.

pañcabhiḥ kurute svārthān

pañca vedātha pañcabhiḥ

ekas tu ṣoḍaśena trīn

svayaṁ saptadaśo 'śnute

(SB 6.1.50)

Evam bhutas ca avidyā sa jīvas ya ca samsara yātanā ta samsiddhi. This is commentation, you see? He says, evam bhutas ca avidyā etadri, eh, jīvas ca, saṁsāra . . . (indistinct) . . . how the living entity under the influence of ignorance, avidyā . . . avidyā karma saṅga: anyone who has come to this material nature, under the control of this material nature. The material nature means it will keep you in avidyā. In the . . . (indistinct) . . . this Durgā is described, yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidrā-rūpeṇa saṁsthitā (Devi-Mahatmyam). This material nature's business is to keep you in ignorance. Avidyā means ignorance.

Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidrā-rūpeṇa. Nidrā-rūpeṇa, just like at night you are sleeping, you are thinking you are sleeping very nicely. If somebody comes to you, chop off your head, you do not know. Nidrā-rūpeṇa. You do not know. Saṁsthitā. But one thing is very prominent: this ear. If somebody cries, "Oh, Mr. Such-and-such, you are sleeping. Get up! Get up! This man is coming to kill you!" Then we can awaken.

So this ear is very important sense you can utilize. Similarly, as you are sleeping under the influence of material nature, as though you are acting, you are similarly acting . . . (indistinct) . . . in this, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). Material nature is doing; you're just acting. You're being forced to act according to your attitudes and all the different varieties of material nature. Therefore, as in this sleeping condition, your ear does not sleep, it gives you help to rise up, similarly, even in this material condition of life, if you hear from the right person, from the Vedas, then you can rise up again. Therefore Vedas is complete.

So actually this is our sleeping condition, ignorance. Therefore our this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the first prescription is śravaṇam: hear, hear. Hearing, hearing, hearing, you will come to your sense. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). And if you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa, then automatically you become purified, and you will know your constitutional position and you become free . . . (indistinct)

Jāgṛta. Uttiṣṭhata jāgṛta prāpya varaṁ nibodhata (Katha Upanisad 1.3.14). That is the injunction of the Vedas, "Get up! Get up!" Uttiṣṭhata jāgṛta: "Be awakened." Prāpya varaṁ nibodhata. You have got this human form of life. If you understand it and make your life free from the clutches of the material nature, modes of material nature . . . and that is simplified by Lord Kṛṣṇa:

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

"Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he is immediately liberated to become free from the influence of māyā," māyām etāṁ taranti te.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa advises:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja

(BG 18.66)

That is the only advice. You have to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa and be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is your only business. There is no other business. Is that all right? Or you have got anything to say? Hmm? Tell me. You have no other alternative . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now that you have to study, how you can say? How you can say? But this is the position. If you are serious, you bring this Vedas also.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You have to understand the defects of law by law book. Is it not? When you contact with a lawyer, it should be like this. But that you have to speak by the law books. Similarly, you can understand that svāmī by reading the svāmī's own books. But you . . . but that requires intelligence. Ordinary man cannot detect that.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is adharma. That is adharma. Just like I told you, they have two temples, they are called Rāma temples, Rāma Mandir, and there is no Rāma. Maybe perhaps I'm the first man to ask, "Where is your Rāma?" So they said that "We don't like to meet you." Then why do you say that you belong to the Rāma temple there? Why do you say? Why do you cheat people that you belong to the Rāma, Rāma temple there? Everywhere you find there is Deity worship.

Just like we are Gauḍīya-sampradāya, our Deity worship is essential. I am serving the Deity wherever I go all over the world, and this kind of Deity worship is going on. But they are atheists. They don't believe in the form of the Lord, but unless in many of the temples of Rāma and the . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the business. So the Rāma Mandir is devoid of Rāma mūrti. So did you not ask? You do not know?

Indian man: (coughs) . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What kind of fool? This is blind faith. This is blind faith. You do not know what is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is blind faith. That is called dharma-adharma.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is a common thing, that you call it a Rāma Mandir. We are invited (to) Rāma Mandir, but when I went there I don't find any Rāma Deity. And if they say that, "We don't worship mūrti because . . . (indistinct) . . ."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: But Mahārāja . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is cheating. This is cheating.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's it, if you want . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise it is cheating. In the name of religion cheating is going on . . . (indistinct)

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan

nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu

kṛṣṇaḥ svayaṁ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo

(Bs 5.39)

This is śāstra. Rāmādi-mūrti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is in so many forms. Why do they say that God has no form? Why God should not have a form? Why? What is the reason? I have got a form because my father has got a form. If God is supreme father, how He can be without form? What is the reason? What is the argument?

If we are sons of God, everyone . . . Kṛṣṇa also says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). The Christians also believe that God is the father, the supreme father, and similarly if the son has got the form, how it is that the father has no form? Are you born of a father who is formless? What is this argument, "The supreme father has no form"? And śāstra says:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

(Bs. 5.1)

Vigraha means form. How God can be formless? What is the argument? And why He should be formless? If He is the creator, He is creating all these forms, and how He can be formless?

Indian man: Nirākāra.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Nirākāra, what is that?

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . Arjuna . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: It is unthinkable. We cannot see. It is beyond us.

Prabhupāda: Ah. But you are thinking that He is formless; that is thinking. Why do you say unthinkable? You are thinking that He is formless, but why do you say that He is unthinkable?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say that He is unthinkable, but you are thinking that He is formless. So how do you say that He is unthinkable? That is your thinking. That is only your thinking; that is not a fact. Therefore argument. You are thinking, you say unthinkable, but you are thinking. That is a false statement, "unthinkable." You can think. In your present capacity you can think, reason . . . (indistinct) . . . duality, because you are accustomed to seeing in duality. However, there must be form. Why there must be form? Relative. Therefore as soon as it is stated that God is unthinkable, you say that He is formless. That is another side of your thinking. That is not the fact. Is it not?

"Unthinkable" does not mean that you can change on the opposite side, then it is good, the business is solved. You are thinking in the opposite side only. You are thinking just like I have got form, you have got form, and when in the Vedas it is said nirākāra, you're thinking that He is formless. If I've got ākāra and He is nirākāra and He is . . . (indistinct) . . . that is your thinking. The actual fact is, as it is stated in the śāstras, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1): He has got a form, but that form is not this form. That is the statement.

Therefore you have to accept the knowledge from the Vedas, not by your thinking that nirākāra means "I have got some ākāra, then God must be without ākāra." That is your thinking. But the actual fact is that His form is not exactly like your form. Therefore it is stated, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Now you can consult, sac-cid-ānanda. Your form is not sat; it is asat. Sat means that it exists. Asat means which does not exist. So your form does not exist, but His form exists. That is the difference.

Therefore He is not exactly like your ākāra. But you have no idea that any form can exist, because you have got experience that any form . . . (indistinct) . . . that does not exist. Sac-cit. Cit means knowledge. He is full of knowledge, but so far our body is concerned it is full of ignorance. And His body full of ānanda, and your body full of nirānanda, all miseries, because your body is not sac-cid-ānanda, but His body is sac-cid-ānanda.

Therefore you can . . . (indistinct) . . . nirākāra this form which you think of is of a different nature. Just like in Vedas it is said, apāṇi-pādo javano grahītā paśyaty acakṣuḥ (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 3.18). Paśyaty acakṣuḥ. These things are there. He sees, but He has no eyes. That means His eyes are different from your eyes. You can see when . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. That also not in darkness. That is the value of your eyes. But He can see everywhere.

Sarvataḥ pāṇi-pādas tat, sarvataḥ cakṣuṣā, He has got His eyes everywhere. So His eyes, His form, His hands, His legs, they are of different quality or different nature. Therefore He is sometimes called nirākāra. This appears contradictory, paśyaty acakṣuḥ: He sees, but He has no eyes, because His eyes are not like our eyes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni (BG 7.26), in the . . . (indistinct) . . . "I know the present, past, future—everything." So He reminds Arjuna that "Both you and Me, we took birth many, many times. You have forgotten; I've not." That is His verdict.

So His knowledge, His bodily construction, His bliss of life is different completely. Therefore we . . . (indistinct) . . . not that He has no form. This nirākāra has no form, that is all material. That is material thinking. God has no form, but it is said . . . they think that if you have form, then He must be formless. No. He has got form, but not exactly like this form.

Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11): "Just like although I am dressed just like a human being, the rascals and fools deride as if I have accepted a material body." Mūḍhā. They have been called mūḍhā. Avajānanti. God has form, but His form is completely different from your form. That is understood by avajānanti, not this ākāra, but he has got ākāra, different ākāra.

Indian man: Is it possible to . . . (indistinct) . . . birth and rebirth?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: Is it possible to think that . . . (indistinct) . . . birth and rebirth . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very scientific and very easy to understand, it requires little intelligence. Just like so many people are saying that they have forgotten their babyhood form. So you had, when you were a baby, say ten months old, you had a form. Now you have forgotten. But that does not mean previously you had no form.

As now here it is said, anumīyate. As in the past you had form, you have got now form, therefore you can conjecture that in the future you will have a form. If in the past you had form, then time is divided into three: past, present and future. So in the past you had a body, in the present you have a body, why not in the future?

Indian man: Because . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That you have to take from the Vedas:

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

(BG 14.18)

This is just what we were discussing, anumīyate. Just as the seasons are changing. Now we are in the winter season, but you can say that, "In the summer season this will happen." That is the future. Anyone can say. Similarly, you can say what kind of body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25): if you are addicted to the different demigods, then you will be promoted to the region of that demigod.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Everything is there. It requires little intelligence, and therefore I am requesting to you to learn knowledge, particularly, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva niścayate (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12). One must approach a bona fide spiritual master to understand this transcendental knowledge. Everything is there; simply you have to learn from the authorized personalities, then you can learn . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You have distributed prasadam?

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, because He knows

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. That difference between Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa means God and the living entities. That is the difference.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But they are claiming that. That is rascaldom. There is always the difference between God and the living entities. But they are falsely claiming that "I am God."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: The difference is always, aṇu and vibhu. Vibhu means all-pervading and aṇu means . . . just like consciousness. You have got consciousness, but that consciousness is distributed in a limited spot within this body.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa consciousness all-pervades. He knows what is going on within His heart, within your heart, within my heart and everyone's. That is His consciousness. Kṣetra-jñāṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). My consciousness indi . . . but the individual person has got individual consciousness. But these Māyāvādī philosophers, they say that because the consciousness is distributed everywhere, therefore I belong to that consciousness.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. Your consciousness is always limited; that consciousness is always unlimited. He is vibhu and you are aṇu, that's all. But you have got consciousness, He has got consciousness. In that way you are equal, sāṅkhya. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13): He is the chief of the conscious personalities amongst all conscious personalities. And because you are thinking in the wrong way, therefore Kṛṣṇa says it, "Please surrender."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then you feel it.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you want to change it, surrender.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Just like father says . . . (indistinct) . . . son, "First of all you agree that you shall abide by my orders, then I shall help you," and he got the help.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Is not that? Yes. If the son says: "Yes, my dear father, I have done wrong; now I surrender. Whatever you say, I . . ." "All right, come on."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, the son is always present in the father. The son is always present, natural, that is natural. The father wants to give everything to the son, that is natural, but when he sees rejection, "Oh, I'm not going to give you service." Reciprocated.

Indian man: He rejects . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is the . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, that is of this age, of this age, you see? And I say my soul will be transferred. That a Punjabi was bringing some earth to . . . for selling in the market, Delhi. So he was carrying all this earth on the back of ass, as they used to, in those days. So he was selling on the road also. There were two sides in the van, it was loaded.

So one side, you could see that he was balancing the load by putting some stones on the other side. So one intelligent man, he was going to . . . (indistinct) . . . side, he said that, "Why you are doing like this? Why not when one side is finished, make another earth . . . (indistinct) . . . put in this way, put in this, and in this way it will make balance."

You see? He is an intelligent man. He could see he is an intelligent man, he was . . . (indistinct) . . . so then he asked himself, "If you are so intelligent, what you're doing?" He replied, "Yes, I passed my B.A. examination, M.A. examination. I went to Delhi, but I could not get any service, so I am going back home." "Oh, you have no occupation? Then I am not going to accept your service. You are unfortunate."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: "Then despite having so much education, you cannot get a service? Ah. Then you are unfortunate. I am not going to accept you. So I shall go on like this." That's a shame, you see? But that is happening. However educated person of the present moment means he's . . . suppose you are a big technologist.

You cannot work independently, you have to find out some Birla. Otherwise studying. But you have got intelligence, that is a fact, but it is no use unless you get money. In spite of your intelligence, daridra-doṣo guṇa-rāśir nāśī, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, "In spite of your all good qualities, if you are poor, then it's all finished."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's all it comes to.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That the Lions Club is full of intelligent persons, they could not pay for our membership. That we are getting membership from ordinary merchants, so many. They are supposed to have no intelligence.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian man: (indistinct) . . . they were telling that "We are not . . . (indistinct) . . ." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Just see. They have no time even, because the same as if . . . still they are poor. But still they are poor. They are telling they have no money.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is not a fact. But bhakti is not depending on a rich method of . . . ahaituky apratihatā yayātmā suprasīdati (SB 1.2.6). Any poor man can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Any poor man. Kṛṣṇa is not for a particular type of man or society.

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

(BG 9.32)

Anyone can. They should know how to become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that's all.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Overpopulation?

Indian man: That is my opinion.

Prabhupāda: Overpopulation means . . . suppose you are now human being. Ah? If you do not take your liberation, then you remain in the cycle, then again you come. Just like in the station you picked up . . . (indistinct) . . . then . . . (indistinct) . . . it. (laughter) That does not mean population has increased. They are not being liberated, but still they tried it. Therefore it is your duty to become liberated, to be strong enough, than described this situation. (laughter) Otherwise suffer.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: As Kṛṣṇa says: immediately. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Simply understand Kṛṣṇa by this process and you are not coming back again. There is no more scientific cure. Why don't you do that? (laughter)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Why do you like to remain in this . . . (indistinct) . . . state?

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. He likes to make himself, therefore he comes to describe his miserable condition of life. That is the effect of kṛṣṇa-bhajana.

yad gatvā na nivartante

tad dhāma paramaṁ mama

(BG 15.6)

But if you want your repetition of birth and death here, you will be sometimes in this condition, that condition, that condition.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you read Bhagavad-gītā, everything you will find our line. And if you read Bhagavad-gītā promoted by some rascal, then you are useless. That's all.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You also become a rascal.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You are already rascal, and somebody makes you still more rascal. Just like one student comes to ask the teacher, "What is the meaning of darga?" He says, "Darga means . . . (indistinct) . . ." So the meaning becomes full of . . . (indistinct)

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you are sure that darga means dog, that would have been simpler. But instead of saying something simpler, you make the whole thing turned around. Darga and darge, so you have to again go to another teacher, "What is the meaning of this?" This is going on.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said:

dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre

samavetā yuyutsavaḥ

māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva

kim akurvata sañjaya

(BG 1.1)

Dharma kṣetre kuru-kṣetre. Kurukṣetra is a place, which is dharma-kṣetre, still. But somebody says that dharma-kṣetre means this body, and the Pāṇḍavas means these senses, indriya. Wherefrom these semantics? And everyone is openly commenting in his own . . . (indistinct) . . . directly contradictory. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā:

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru

(BG 18.65)

And one big scholar says: "No, no, it is not up to Kṛṣṇa."

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: This is going on. Their only business is how to avoid that, that's all. That is the whole scheme.

Indian man: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Kaṁsa's policy. Kaṁsa, he was always scheming how to kill Kṛṣṇa. But he is . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa will say, charge you, that Kaṁsa that ultimately be killed by Kṛṣṇa, although he was very sure how to kill Kṛṣṇa. The Kaṁsa's policy will not . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa's policy you will be purchasing; therefore take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31).

Alright. Thank you very much.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . (end)