730226 - Conversation B - Jakarta

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730226R2-JAKARTA - February 26, 1973 - 70:01 Minutes

Guest (1): Aj subah subah yehi socha, apse pehle darshan karke piche jaunga. To mai ek do pehle upar aya, yaha dekha hi nahi. Nahi, mai kariban dus minute pehle aya tha. (Early in the morning, it came to my mind to take your darśan before going back. So I came upstairs twice but I could not see you . No, I came approximately ten minutes before.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. Hum to idhar hi tha. (Oh I see. I was here only.)

Guest (1): To shayad maine udhar dekha, fourth floor par bhi. Dekha ap nahi to mai . . . (So maybe I looked up there on the fourth floor also. When I did not see you . . .)

Guest (1): No, I came to beg namaskār.

Amogha: Very soon the man from department of religion will be coming.

Guest (1): Minister of religion.Mera ek minnati hai, agar ho sake, do din ap aur thehriye. (I have a request, please stay here for two more days.)

Amogha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nahi, kya kaam hai karu? Keval theherne se kya . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (No, is there any work that I can do? Simply staying back . . .)

Guest (1): Nahi, humare bhaiyo ki bohot chal rahe hai. Bhaiyo ki bohot . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. Meri wife abhi adha ghante me, dus minute me ayengi. Meri ek ladki hai. Usko janma se polio trouble hua hai. (No, too many things are going on for my brothers. My brothers have a lot of . . . (indistinct) . . . my wife will come within half an hour or ten minutes. I have a daughter. Since her birth she has got polio trouble.) She can walk slowly, can talk slowly, now she is about 30 years age. To meri wife ne bola tha ki mai ek dafa ladki ko lekar ke yaha apke pas ayenge, ashirvad dena aur kuch nahi. Ki dekho na, ye to janmo ki bat hoti hai na. Humne to kafi koshish kiya. Bohot doctor kafi dikhaya, uske bad bola ye polio trouble hai, isko kuch training, jo physical training se, to abhi to thik hai. Lekin phir bhi ye polio trouble to mushkil deta hai. (So my wife said that she will come here with my daughter to take your blessings. As you see, it depends on her birth. We tried a lot, and took her to many doctors. Then they said that it is polio trouble. With some physical training, she is now okay but this polio problem is very troublesome.)

Prabhupāda: Kya polio trouble, kya hota hai? (What is this polio trouble?)

Guest (1): Ye hota hai na . . . (It is kind of . . .) just like a paralysing. Same as paralysing. Bhai, dhir dhire chalna, pao aur hath me itna takat nahi hoti hai. (Walking slowly, not much strength in hands and legs.) Very weak. Apko to pata hoga ye polio bimari hoti hai na, baccho ko ye mostly, jaisa langda-lula admi . . . ye ho jata hai. To ve bola tha ki mai jaungi aur ladki ko lekar ke thoda ashirvad lena . . . Maine bola ki, " Thik hai, tum lake jana." Ye hota hai ki ma ke andar me beti ke liye . . . sach-much hum log to bohot bhagyashali hai apse mile. (You might know that this polio disease mostly affects children, just like lame and handicapped persons. This is what happens. So I told her, "You can come with your daughter". Actually, this is how a mother feels for her daughter . . . really we are very fortunate to meet you.)

Prabhupāda: Kal meeting me ap tha? (Were you there in the meeting yesterday?)

Guest (1): Mai tha usme. Lekin space thoda chota tha, garmi bohot thi. Aj jo space hai ye, vo bohot bada hai. Isme, isse bhi kitna admi a sakta, baith sakta hai upar. (I was there. There was not much space and it was very hot. Today, the space is very large. How many people can sit here?)

Prabhupāda: Hindi samajh me aya? Hum to Hindi me zyada . . . (Did you understand my Hindi? I don’t speak much in Hindi . . .)

Guest (1): Uska microphone itna thik nahi tha lekin mai bohot nazdik baitha tha aur phir uske bad me hum uthke apke pichadi ake khada ho gaya, bahar me. (indistinct) . . . sabke pichadi hum khada tha. Wo pankha chala raha tha na, hum bola . . . (indistinct) . . . ki bhai tum thoda dhir karo . . . ha, mithai hai? Barfi . . . (indistinct) . . . barfi, yes . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (The microphone was not working properly but I was sitting very close. Later, I got up and stood behind you, outside . . . (indistinct) . . . I was standing behind everyone. He was fanning you, I said . . . (indistinct) . . . please wait a little . . . is it a sweetmeat? Burfi . . . (indistinct) . . . burfi, yes . . .) very good, very good . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Kal vo vyakti jo tark karne ke liye khada ho gaya, uska argument kya hai jo ek boond pani samudra ke saman. (Yesterday, that person who stood up for arguing, his argument was that one drop is equal to the whole ocean.)

Guest (1): Mai aisa sunta hu ki kai log aisa bhi hota hai na jinka sirf khyal hota hai puchne ka. (I have heard that there are some people who just like to ask questions.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, koi bhi hoye. Argument ka to kuch value hona chahiye. Hum bola jo jiva jo hai . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. Bhagavan kehte hai mamaivamso. Humara ansh hai. To ek boond pani samundar . . . (indistinct) . . . Wo jo ek boond hai, wo chemically . . . (No, whoever he may be . . . the argument should have some value. I said that the living entity is . . . (indistinct) . . . God says mamaivāṁśaḥ (BG 15.07). He is My part and parcel. So one drop of water and the ocean . . . (indistinct) . . . that one drop of water, that is chemically . . .) qualitatively one. Ye ek boond pani samundar ka saman kaise ho sake? Ye jo argument hai, ye to koi sane man ka argument nahi hai. (How one drop of water can be equal to the ocean? This is not a sane man's argument.)

Guest (1): Mai yehi bolna tha ki ye log hota hai na, unko sirf saval puchne ka maza ata hai lekin khud janta nahi. Khud janta nahi. (I was saying that these people only enjoy asking such questions but they themselves don't know the answer. They don't know themselves.)

Prabhupāda: Koi intelligent saval pucho, gadha ka jaisa bolne se kya labh. Aur sabha me gadha ho jana. (Ask some intelligent questions, what is the use of talking like an ass. Just to become an ass in the whole assembly.)

Guest (1): Nahi, ye admi age bhi suna tha, kal, kal hi humne suna tha ki kabhi kabhi aisi koi mahapurush ate hai na, to uska aisa adha-tedha saval kar leta hai. Saval karne ke bad me khud wo sunta nahi ki maine saval kya kiya? (No, I heard about him previously, only yesterday I heard that whenever some saintly person comes here, he asks such twisted questions. After asking the question, he does not listen any more.)

Guest (2): Ye jo admi utha kal, Arya-samaji tha. Wo humesha aisa hi . . . (That man who got up yesterday, he was an Arya-samaj member. In this way, he always . . . )

Guest (1): Uska nature hota hai kabhi kabhi . . . (His nature is that sometimes . . .)

Prabhupāda: Taki usko to . . . to gadha ban jata hai. Ek boond pani samundar ke saman. Yehi to unka bolna tha. Ye kaise ho sake? (So that he . . . he becomes an ass. One drop of water is equal to the ocean, that's what he wanted to say. How is this possible?)

Guest (1): Ye log zyada me zyada aisa bolna chahiye ki bohot agyani hai. Ye discussion ke andar mag jate hai. (These people can at best be described as grossly ignorant. They enjoy getting into such discussions.)

Prabhupāda: Bohot agyani. Arey ye sab ate hai . . . wo bhi yehi samajhte hum . . . so'ham. Bas, wahi Bhagavan hai hum. Ye samjha deta hai unko. Ye ajkal khub chal raha hai je hum Bhagavan hai. Kyu? (Very ignorant. These people come . . . they simply think themselves . . . so'ham. That’s it, I am the Supreme Lord. This is what they are made to understand. This is going on a lot nowadays, that I am God. Why?)

Guest (2): Ye, hum bhi ek satsang kar raha hai, udhar bhi aisa hi kehte hai . . . (indistinct Hindi) . . . (I also go to a satsang, where they say the same thing . . .) same thing, same thing.

Prabhupāda: Uska kehne ka kya argument hai? Tum Bhagavan kaisa ho gaya bhai? Tum to din bhar me bis juta kha rahe ho. Tum Bhagavan kaisa ho gaya? Janta hi nahi Bhagavan kya chiz hai. (What is their argument? How did you become God? You are getting beaten with shoes twenty times throughout the day. How did you become God? They don't even know what God is.)

Guest (1): (indistinct Hindi) . . . prarthana . . . (indistinct) . . . maine apke samne apna arji rakha hai, do din aur bhi thehriye, jaldi nahi jana. Mera arj hai, minnati hai ki do teen din aur bhi thehro. Do tarikh ko nahi jana (. . . prayers . . . (indistinct) . . . I have kept a request before you, stay here for two more days, don’t leave so early. My request is please stay for another two, three days. Don’t leave on the 2nd.)

Prabhupāda: Kya chiz hai? Nahi, kaam paye to theher sakega. What is it? (If there is work, I can stay.)

Guest (1): Phir apko kaam bhi bata denge. Humare bhaiyo ke uddhar ke liye, inko acchi tarah se samajhna chahiye ki Rama nama ki kirtan ki shakti kya hoti hai. (Then we will give you some work also. For the deliverance of my brothers, they should properly understand the power of chanting Lord Rama’s names.)

Prabhupāda: Wo to Rama nama karne se shakti svayam hi parichay de dega. (By taking the name of Lord Rama, that power will automatically manifest itself.)

Guest (1): Isliye Maharaj vinti kiya . . . (That’s why Maharaja, I requested . . .)

Prabhupāda: Abhi jaisa ap mithai le aye, mithai khane se kya fayda hota hai? To dur se . . . (indistinct) . . . karne se khake dekho kya fayda hota hai. (Just like you brought the sweets right now. So what is the benefit of eating sweets? So instead of arguing from a distance, eat it and find out the benefit.)

Guest (1): Much, much karne ka zarurat nahi, khake dekho. (Stop hesitating, just eat it and find out.)

Prabhupāda: Jo, mithai me jo shakti hai, khao. Khane ke liye diya hai, khao tum. Aur usko malum ho jayega . . . (The amount of energy provided by that sweet, eat it. It has been given for eating, you eat and then you will get to know . . .) there is no need of asking.

(aside) Aiye, aiye. Baithiye. (Please come, please come. Please have a seat.)

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Shall we go there so that we can sit comfortably?

Devotee: Well, there are the same amount of chairs whether we're here or there.

Prabhupāda: No, there are no more chairs . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: Oh there is . . . (indistinct) . . . enough yes, I guess that's best.

Prabhupāda: People are coming, so will you kindly take the trouble to . . . inside sitting?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, thank you very much.

(to guest) You don't take charge of that.

Amogha: We will take. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Vasudeva make introduction of these gentlemen.

Amogha: Yes. This is Mr. Ivy Mastra, and he is in charge of the Hindu and Buddhist Department of the Department of Religion. And this is his next-in-command, director-general, Mr. G. Puja. He was educated in India also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, really. Which city?

Mr. G. Puja: Benares in the University.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Benares University. That's nice.

Amogha: Actually, they have arranged, by giving a letter, that we can stay in the country. They simply say: "We do not object," and then the immigration gives us a good visa. They especially like your books.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. You have read some of my books?

Mr. G. Puja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are not my books, I am simply translating. They are written by Vyāsadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is that government must be responsible for proper execution of religious system. It doesn't matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Muhammadan or Buddhist—it doesn't matter—but it is the government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu, whether he's executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government duty.

Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that, "You may go on with your so-called religion; we don't care for it." No. That is not government. Government's duty is to see.

Just like, for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, "Thou shall not kill." It is the government's duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, "Why he's killing?" Immediately he should be punished, that "You are professing a Christian and you are killing." This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see.

And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test. Because religion means it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process is quest of God: What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we . . . what we are?

What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human being? If simply eating, sleeping and sex life and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat, they also sleep, they have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their nails and claws. The different spirit is there.

So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life—this opportunity's given by nature to have a human form of life—is to understand God. Nobody can deny, unless he is a crazy fellow, the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn't matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion. Now there may be difference of processes, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government . . .

(someone enters) Hare Kṛṣṇa.

(pause) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya

But formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising whether citizens are properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department?

Mr. Mastra: Excuse me, my English is very poor. I would like Mr. Kunti to translate, Indonesian. (Indonesian)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . kya aap ja rahe hain? Thoda sa prasaad le lo. (Are you leaving? Take a little prasadam.)

Amogha: He would like to have him translate English to Indonesian.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Guest (2): He is the director of the university of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of . . . (indistinct) . . . religion and expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions, whether it's Christians . . . because we have also in-charge for the Christianity, we have also in-charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in-charge for the Catholic, and we have also in-charge for other . . .

Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice.

Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions, they're called practically worshiper. So the government have to . . . (indistinct) . . . so the government have to lead the people how actually, to supply also, in the field of their materials for readings, and facilities for their . . . prosecuting their religions. This is the actual . . . (indistinct) . . . the government, to have that religions department.

Prabhupāda: So this is the idea which I was explaining, that . . .

Guest (2): Besides that . . . (Indonesian) As a matter of fact, also that we are looking from the Hindu and Buddhist religions' point of view, how to get books this department, especially because we are feeling of lacking of materials because no of our books actually here, written in ancient Indonesian language, which are translated from Sanskrit or re-writed.

Prabhupāda: Ancient English . . .?

Guest (2): Ancient Indonesian language.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. (Okay.)

Guest (2): And now, actually, most of the Sanskrit texts, also, are not available anymore. Of course, we have some few can be available from . . . (indistinct) . . . society, and that is why, actually, to develop this Hindu religions, as well as Buddhist religion, which have a lack of material for reading. Now the government also tried to rewrite into Indonesian Bahasa, and as one of the aspects, for example, that Bhagavad-gītā has been translated into Indonesian.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Guest (2): So in this we are expecting that this Bhagavad-gītā should be available in the English . . . (indistinct) . . . and also, matter of fact actually, most of English readers can understand, and they have the ideas of the Mahābhārata and Rāmāyaṇa, and the essence of the Bhagavad-gītā. Now the problems, at least the department has faced a lot of facing difficulties to supply the materials that are actually needed by the people, is we are lacking of materials. So how, actually, we have to solve this problem actually.

We are actually, from the government point of view, we are always looking and how we can try to get international relationships between various countries to solve the problems. As the same case also, how to educate Indonesian peoples to study more about the Hinduism in order they can teach the Hinduism, because in our country religious instruction is compulsory in our . . . any institution. So we felt, actually, in our lack of material as well as also lack of institution to develop this Hindu religions. And I, from our government, actually, we are expecting your visit here that it will be beneficial, both for our side, from the government point of view, and as well as for here and as well in your country.

Prabhupāda: So I think your problems can be solved if you kindly cooperate with us.

Guest (2): Yes. That's why we are looking for that. Because . . .

Prabhupāda: We can give you correct idea of religious principles as well as our philosophy.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Religious idea without philosophy is sentiment, and philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They should be combined. Religious idea supported by philosophy, then it is correct. And philosophy without religious idea is simply mental speculation. They should be combined. That combination of religious idea on philosophy you'll find in the Bhagavad-gītā, provided you accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. If you interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way, then you'll miss the point. Just like in our country, in India, Bhagavad-gītā has been interpreted in so different ways that people are now bewildered. They do not know what is actually Bhagavad-gītā.

Take, for example . . . just like in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). I think you know Sanskrit. Samavetā yuyutsavaḥ māmakāḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva kim akurvata sañjaya (BG 1.1). Even a great leader, political leader, he has interpreted kurukṣetra as this body. So where is the dictionary where kurukṣetra means this body? But because he's a big political leader, that Gītā is going on: "Kurukṣetra means this body; pāṇḍava means the five senses." In this way interpreting. Of course, they cannot pull off. I may tell you frankly.

Just like Mahatma Gandhi, he wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and how he can prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gītā? Then he has to drag some interpretation out of his own way. But because he's a big leader, the people are misled. Similarly, all . . . at present moment in India the Bhagavad-gītā has becoming a plaything, that anyone can interpret in his own way and do all nonsense.

But I'll request you, because you are so much interested, and you have already approved Bhagavad-gītā, you have translated, amongst the leading personalities, you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is and spread it, it will have immediate effect. That is already experimented. Just like in the Western countries, before me, hundreds and thousands svāmīs and yogīs went there. But not a single person could understand what is Bhagavad-gītā and what is Kṛṣṇa. Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa—everywhere—Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees like them. So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gītā nicely.

So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African. God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form . . . the form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in different way. But we are not talking to the dress; we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā—you know—paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne

brāhmaṇe gavi hastini

śuni caiva śvapāke ca

paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ

(BG 5.18).

Because paṇḍita does not see the outward dress. Paṇḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone.

That is my . . . not opinion, that is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear. When things are not very clear, not easily understood . . . there is example in Sanskrit grammar, gaṅgāyāṁ ghoṣa-pāli: "The neighborhood of ghoṣa family is on the Ganges." Now, on the Ganges—Ganges is water—how there can be a village? Now, here interpretation required. When the matter is . . .

(break) . . . on the water, but on the bank of the Ganges.

So when the meaning is not clear, then you can interpret. But when the meaning is clear . . . just like Bhagavad-gītā: dharmakṣetre kurukṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Now Kurukṣetra is still there, in . . . about ninety miles away from Delhi. Perhaps you have been there. The station is there, Kurukṣetra. Now how one can interpret that kurukṣetra means this body? This is going on. In spite of clear understanding, they will interpret in their own way so that they have got their own philosophy, they want to support it. This is going on.

So if you kindly avoid this misleading interpretation, and if you take Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you get the science of God, science of religion, which is applicable either to Indonesian or Indian or African or American—everyone. The science is appreciated everywhere. "Two plus two equal to four," this mathematical science is applicable everywhere. It doesn't matter whether one is a Christian or Hindu or Muslim. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā is the science of religion, science of God.

So if you take this book seriously and try to spread this knowledge among your countrymen, I think you'll be very much benefited. And it can be . . . we are preaching that. We are the . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for one God, one scripture, one mantra, like that, for all people of the world. And we are happy that people are accepting it in that way, very nicely. And it is very easy. It is very easy. So Mr. Director, he has read Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest (2): Yes. He has read it.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Guest (2): And I think many Indonesian people, actually, have read this Bhagavad-gītā, because we have translated that Bhagavad-gītā in 1966.

Prabhupāda: I see. Very nice. So have you read our this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Do you like it?

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . because when I was in India, that's when . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So religion must be there. Without religion the human society is animal society. There must be religion. And religion means to know God. That is religion. What is your explanation of religion?

Guest (2): Actually it's a very small thing to define in . . . (indistinct) . . . Religion has to be defined as a Vedic . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that . . . (indistinct)?

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . to understand religion is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be the same. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the course, or the laws, given by God. Just like law means the law given by the state. I cannot manufacture law. The citizen cannot manufacture law. The law is manufactured by the legislative assembly of the government. Similarly, religion means the order given by God.

Now we have to understand who is God and what is His order, and how it is applicable to everyone. That is the system of religion. We cannot whimsically give some rituals as religion. The principle of religion is to obey the orders of God. Therefore the first principle is to know who is God. Unless I know what is God, then how I can know what is His order?

So in the Bhagavad-gītā, the religion is given that . . .

(aside) You are feeling sleepy, you can go.

The Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is religion. We have manufactured so many types of religion, and here God says that, "You give up your manufactured religion. You just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Religion means to surrender. A good citizen means to surrender to the government laws. Similarly, a religious person means who has surrendered to God.

Nowadays it has become a regrettable fashion that everyone is God, when we surrender to one. And this false prestige that, "I am God. I haven't got to surrender to anyone. I am God. What surrender?" this atheism is going on and spoiling the whole human society. God has become so cheap thing, any nonsense can claim, "I am God." That is the defect of the modern society. There is a great necessity to understand God. If everyone is God, then where is the necessity of religion? If everyone is president, then where is the necessity of lawmaking? So this is going on. This is very unfortunate situation. What is your idea?

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . translator in our Hindu text, for example, that when it's expressed ahaṁ brahmāsmi, so . . .

Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi is the Vedic version, that is all right. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi means "I am spirit. I am not this body." So 'ham means "I am the same quality as God." But they are misinterpretation: so 'ham means, "I am God." This is nonsense. This is going on.

Guest (2): That's misleading.

Prabhupāda: Misleading, and people have become nonsense. (conversation between the two Indonesian guests in Indonesian) You have published Bhagavad-gītā with commentary or simple translation?

Guest (2): With commentaries.

Prabhupāda: So whose commentary you have followed?

Guest (2): We try to take from various books, and we try . . . at first we have to understand clearly their positions, and then we put them in a simple way that everybody can understand it clearly. Only the part that's very difficult to realize.

Prabhupāda: So now here, Bhagavad-gītā, in the Fourth Chapter it is said, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1).

(to devotee) You can open this Fourth Chapter.

Guest (2): First thing, Swāmī, that according to our opinions that religion is something that true living.

Prabhupāda: Something?

Guest (2): Something that we should live truly.

Prabhupāda: True living. Yes. True, just like good citizens . . .

Guest (2): That's right.

Prabhupāda: Good citizenship means living under the direction of the government. That is good citizenship. Similarly, human life means to live nicely under the direction of God. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. But the human life . . .

(pause)

Now where is Fourth Chapter I don't see.

(aside) That first verse:

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

(BG 4.1)

So what is your explanation of this verse?

Guest (2): You want to explain this into, er . . . do you want to explain this?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

(BG 4.1)

Guest (2): Yes. This actually is explaining the origins of the law, ancient law, that's obeyed by the man. It's the law given from the . . .

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (2): Yes. Kṛṣṇa . . . (indistinct) . . . and coming to Ikṣvāku and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that . . . (indistinct) . . . means, that means this knowledge should be received from the authority.

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like . . .

Guest (2): So actually they have acquired it from one source.

Prabhupāda: Yes. One link. So that is being deviated. What Kṛṣṇa said to Vivasvān, to the sun-god, now everyone is speaking in his own way, not in that way.

Guest (2): That's right.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is deviated. The Bhagavad-gītā, the Chapter, Fourth Chapter, explains that you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation. You must follow the instruction of the original speaker of Bhagavad-gītā. The original speaker is Kṛṣṇa. So what Kṛṣṇa says, they have to follow it. Then it is Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise, if you interpret it in a different way, then it is not Bhagavad-gītā.

Now, what Kṛṣṇa says, we have to understand it philosophically, ethically, scientifically, any way, any angle of vision. That is . . . that you can do. But you cannot change the version of Bhagavad-gītā. You cannot change. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan, in the Ninth Chapter, when Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), Dr. Radhakrishnan says: "It is not to the Kṛṣṇa person."

But Kṛṣṇa person says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "You just always think of Me." And he's deviating his readers, "Not to Kṛṣṇa." How much harm he's doing. This is going on. Why? It is said, Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, "Just think of Me. Just become My devotee." What right he has got to say that here it is not to Kṛṣṇa? This is going on.

So if we interpret in that nonsense way then we shall not be able to understand Bhagavad-gītā. We shall miss this . . . science does not mean that you have to change according to your whims. "Two plus two equal to four." You cannot make it "five" or "three." That is not possible. Then it is not science; no longer the scientific value of this "two plus two" remains. We follow that principle, and that is the only principle.

So if you're actually serious about Bhagavad-gītā—I do not know what is your commentary—I request you, "Try to follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. Don't interpret in your own way." Then it will be missing. Everyone has got . . . (indistinct) . . . all over the world. Therefore we are selling this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is very nicely. Our publisher is Macmillan Company, and their trades manager's report is that our Bhagavad-gītā is increasing daily, sales; other decreasing. That is the report.

And in October they published 50,000 copies, it is already finished. Now they have to plan it for the second edition. People are very much, now, eager to read Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. So, imitating us, somebody's, another (chuckles) man, he said: "Bhagavad-gītā As It Was." (laughs with everyone) Like that. So that will not harm our cause.

(Indonesian with other guest)

Guest (2): One thing Mr . . . (indistinct) . . . would like to have answer from you, that, according to different view, objective reply, the object of religion is . . . (indistinct) . . . life.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest (2): The objective of religion is to be prosperous in this world and hereafter.

Prabhupāda: No. This is . . . (indistinct) . . . prosperous . . . that is also stated, how you can become prosperous. That . . .

Guest (2): The problems work like this . . .

Prabhupāda: No. That is stated . . .

Guest (2): Whether this question also . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. This is there . . .

Guest (2): This what it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find this verse.

(aside:) Find out. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram.

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

(BG 5.29)

This is the śānti, prosperity. They are . . . Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the Supreme Enjoyer. I am the sole proprietor of everything." Sarva-loka-maheśvaram. Sarva-loka: not only of this planet, but other planets also. Loka. Loka means planet. Sarva-lokam. So bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "I am the most," I mean to say, "well-wisher friend of everyone." Jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati.

If one understands these three things only: that God is the Supreme Enjoyer . . . we are not enjoyer, but God is enjoyer. That God is the proprietor of everything, not we are proprietor. We are subordinate. In the Vedas also, it is stated, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). The description of God is like that—He's eternal amongst the eternals. We are also eternal, we living entities, and God is also eternal. Nityo nityānāṁ . . . cetana: He's the vital living force among all living forces. Here all living forces, and He's the chief living force.

Then what is the distinction between this singular number nitya and the plural number nityas? The distinction is that that singular number nitya is maintaining these plural number nityas. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). That is the distinction. Otherwise, God is also a living entity like us, like one of us, but He's the chief. Just like father and children. Father is the chief man in the family, and he's providing all necessities to life for the children, for the wife's families. Although the father is also living entity and the children are also living entities, but the father is providing the children, and the children are being provided by the father.

So this is the understanding. Unless we understand this, there cannot be any peace. That is the Vedic version. Anyone who understands this, he gets peace. Otherwise there's no possibility of peace. If I think that I am the proprietor, if I think that I am the enjoyer, or, in other words, I am God, then you'll never get peace. That is not possible. That is a false. If one of the children thinks that, "I am the independent," then naturally father will say, "All right, if you're independent, do your own business." This is an example.

So if you want peace, then, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, you have to learn these three things. It is not very difficult: to accept God as the Supreme Enjoyer, and God is the sole proprietor of everything, and He's the best friend of everyone. Then you have peace. Anyone can appreciate this. Anyone can adopt this principle and he'll be in peace. And so long one will falsely think that, "I am God. I am enjoyer. I am this, I am that," then he'll suffer. False notion will never make him happy. He must come to the true, factual idea.

Now then, you can examine that Kṛṣṇa says that, "I am the Supreme Enjoyer." Now let us understand this one fact, how Kṛṣṇa's the enjoyer. Now suppose here is some banana fruits. Who has created this banana fruit? You are not manufacturer, I am not manufacturer. Somebody has created. We accept God has created, and that's a fact. Then who should be the enjoyer? I shall be enjoyer or God shall be enjoyer? Anything you create, you become the enjoyer. Anything I create, I become the enjoyer. So if God has created this banana fruit, then who should be enjoyer? God or I?

Guest (2): God. It should be God. God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our business is, we should offer this banana to God: "Sir, it is Your creation, it is Your thing. First of all You taste it, then we take it." Then you become in peace. And if you falsely think that, "I have created this banana tree. I have worked so hard. Now the fruit is there. Now I am the enjoyer," then you are mistaken. Then next statement is, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka maheś . . . (BG 5.29), "I am the proprietor of everything in the world." Now, beginning of this world, bhūmi, land, this land, they're claiming this land Indonesian, this land American, this land Indian. But has the Indonesians or the Africans or the Indians created this land? Who has created this land?

Guest (2): God.

Prabhupāda: God. Then He must be proprietor. But we are falsely claiming, "I am the proprietor." So how you can be in peace? Suppose you steal something, somebody's property, and falsely claim, "I am proprietor," you'll never be peace, because it is not your thing; you have stolen it. So in this way, if you philosophically study that God is the Supreme Proprietor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ (ISO 1), you can simply use what is given to you. You cannot claim other's property. Just like in animal life, animal life, they do not claim "This is my country." The birds, they do not claim, but they live very peacefully. There are crows, there are spa . . . what is called? So many birds, they live anywhere, everywhere, but they do not claim, "Oh, this is my country. This is my place." They do not claim. Therefore they are free to move everywhere.

So we have created a situation, godless situation; therefore we are not in peace. So therefore, if you want peace, you must accept God, first of all. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29). This is the way of śānti. You cannot create your śānti in your own way. That is not possible. Just like the citizens, if they create their own way of śānti, there cannot be peace. If they abide by the orders of the government, by the laws of the government, there will be peace. This is crude example. Similarly, if we do not accept God in the center as the Supreme Proprietor and the Supreme Enjoyer and the Supreme Friend, then there is no peace. This is the problem, I have given in the . . . what is that? Read it?

Devotee:

bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati

(BG 5.29)

Translation: "The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, obtain peace from the pangs of material miseries."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Devotee: "The conditioned souls in the clutches of the illusory energy are all anxious to attain peace in the material world. They do not know the formula for peace, which is explained in this part of the Bhagavad-gītā. The greatest peace formula is simply this—Lord Kṛṣṇa is the beneficiary in all human activities. Men should offer everything to the transcendental service of the Lord because He is the proprietor of all planets and the demigods thereon. No one is greater than He. He is greater than the greatest of the demigods, Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā."

"In the Vedas the Supreme Lord is described as param īśvarānāṁ paramaṁ maheśvaram. Under the spell of illusion, living entities are trying to be lords of all they survey. But actually they are dominated by the material energy of the Lord. The Lord is the master of material nature, and the conditioned souls are under the stringent rules of material nature."

Prabhupāda: That is the defect. Lord is the master of material nature, and we are conditioned by the material nature, and still we are claiming, "I am God." Then?

Devotee: "Unless one understands these bare facts, it is not possible to achieve peace in the world, either individually or collectively. This is the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Lord Kṛṣṇa is the supreme predominator, and all living entities, including the great demigods, are His subordinates. One can attain peace . . . perfect peace only in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

"In the Fifth Chapter is the practical explanation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, generally known as karma-yoga. The question of mental speculation as to how karma-yoga can give liberation is answered herewith. To work in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to work with the complete knowledge that the Lord is the predominator. Such work is not different from transcendental knowledge."

"Direct Kṛṣṇa consciousness is bhakti-yoga, and jñāna-yoga is the path leading to bhakti-yoga. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to work in full knowledge of one's relationship with the Supreme Absolute, and the perfection of this consciousness is full knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

"A pure soul is the eternal servant of God as His fragmental part and parcel. He comes into contact with māyā, illusion, due to the desire to lord it over māyā. And that is the cause of his many sufferings. As long as he is in contact with matter he has to execute work in terms of material necessities. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, brings one into spiritual life even while he is within the jurisdiction of matter, for it is an arousing of spiritual existence by practice in the material world."

"The more one is advanced, the more he is free from the clutches of matter. The Lord is not partial toward anyone. Everything depends on one's practical performance of duties in an effort to control the senses and conquer the influence of desire and anger. And attaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness by controlling the above-mentioned passions, one remains factually in the transcendental stage of brahma-nirvāṇa."

"The eight-fold yoga mysticism is automatically practiced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness because the ultimate purpose is served. There's a gradual process of elevation in the practice of yama, niyama, āsana, pratyāhāra, dhyāna, dhāraṇā, prāṇāyāma and samādhi. But these only preface perfection by devotional service, which alone can award peace to the human being. It is the highest perfection of life."

Prabhupāda: Therefore in another place it is stated, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19): "After many, many births, when actually becomes wise, jñānavān, māṁ prapadyate, he surrenders unto Me." That is the perfection of knowledge.

So this is . . . this Bhagavad-gītā is the only source of scientific knowledge of God and our relationship with God. I am very glad that you are already very serious about understanding Bhagavad-gītā. But I request you only that try to understand Bhagavad-gītā without any our man-made interpretation. That will be my request.

Guest (2): What is one thing that I would like to . . .

Prabhupāda: And we are always ready to help you in this.

Guest (2): Yes, thank you for this. What I wanted, that Gurujī will be able to help us . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Guest (2): . . . in establishing, for example, that Gītā meeting for some . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes . . . (indistinct) . . . our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is practically preaching the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā as it is. And it is coming fruitful. It is coming very fruitful.

(conversation in Indonesian between guests)

Prabhupāda: Please translate.

Guest (2): (Indonesian) He said, as a matter of fact, this Hindu religion in Indonesia, actually, most of them practicing Bhagavad-gītā. So Bhagavad-gītā has been a part of their life. But as a matter of due course, in practicing this Bhagavad-gītā, not all complete path has been practiced, but only part by path which is very necessary for the adjustment with the condition in Indonesia. And some of them, of course, they can memorizing the verses for their benefit in their practices . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So we are always prepared to help you, anytime you require our help. We shall try, we shall very much try to explain Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Guest (2): Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Jaya . . . (indistinct) . . . (end)