730515 - Morning Walk - Los Angeles

Morning Walks by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730515MW-LOS ANGELES - May 15, 1973 - 44:51 Minutes

(Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course)

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: (introducing recording) Prabhupāda's morning walk, recorded May 5th, 1973, at Cheviot Hills Park, in Los Angeles.

Prabhupāda: . . . difficulty for the scientist to understand God? What is their difficulty? We understand God very easily.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They find it very hard to see the spirit, the soul in . . . it is very doubtful, they say.

Prabhupāda: No, no, spirit you see or don't see, that is dif . . .

Umāpati: He studies matter.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, once they see the spirit soul, they can detect somehow, then they are definitely convinced.

Prabhupāda: So how you can see? It is . . . the measurement is given, 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair. So where is your seeing power?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still they want to sense it by some . . .

Prabhupāda: Sense, that is . . . any rascal can sense that here is living energy. That is spirit soul. Just like if you inject one grain of poison and immediately he dies, does it require how he dies? That one, not one grain. Even one hundredth part of one grain, venomous poison, how it acts? So even nobody can see it, when the snake bites, nobody can see where is that . . . how he dies?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will explain that by . . . it blocks some of the metabolic paths . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but it is acting. That is my point. You can explain in your nonsense way, this, so many things. But I see that because that very little portion of poison is there, immediately he dies. Why don't you see the action?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like taking cyanide. Cyanide, they say cyanide blocks the . . .

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but the thing, we have to see by the effect. Similarly, if the small particle of . . . therefore our knowledge is perfect. We take it from Vedas. The small particle of soul, because it is present there, you will see the whole thing is going on nicely.

Karāndhara: But they say the soul is subject to material conditions. They are seeing the body as the soul; so they say because it is subject to material conditions, therefore it's not eternal.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Maybe material conditions, that is . . . but soul you have to accept there is soul.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Once they accept the existence of the soul, then there is not much difficulty. Once they accept this, then automatically they have to accept.

Prabhupāda: No, they have to accept. They have no explanation. All they explain foolishly. How the man is living, how there is consciousness, he cannot explain. Avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam. Consciousness, because the soul is there, if I pinch here, immediately I feel, I am conscious. Throughout the whole skin, I am conscious. As soon as the soul is not there, if you cut it, chop it, nobody protests. Why this simple thing they do not understand?

Paramahaṁsa: That's the soul, Prabhupāda, but what about God? . . . they . . . they . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh? First of all let us understand the soul. Soul is the, a small God, sample God. If you understand the sample, then you can understand the whole thing.

Umāpati: Some scientists are claiming that just because they haven't yet discovered how to create life, they are soon to, and . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Umāpati: They are in the process of trying to create life.

Prabhupāda: That is rascaldom. That we kick out. That we kick on their face. You show what you have got just now. That we don't accept that, "We are trying." A rascal will say: "I am trying to be millionaire." When you become millionaire, then talk. Now you are a poor vagabond. That's all. That we shall accept. What . . . you are trying. Everyone will say: "I am trying." What you are now? That is our proposition.

Paramahaṁsa: At the present they know how to kill very good.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Nonsense. "We are trying." That any nonsense will say: "I am trying." What is this? That is not a scientific proposition.

Umāpati: Well, the argument that has been presented is that, "Well we don't have it now, but soon we're to have it. So . . ."

Prabhupāda: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say that, "I am trying to . . ." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You . . . as you don't trust because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you?

Umāpati: Give them a lot of credit.

Karāndhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past . . . they have accomplished so much in the past.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?

Paramahaṁsa: Helped death.

Prabhupāda: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done?

Karāndhara: Now we have aeroplanes.

Prabhupāda: You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help?

Umāpati: The same scientists will point to India and say: "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."

Prabhupāda: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?

Umāpati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?

Umāpati: Well, I am not doing this.

Prabhupāda: No no, you are . . . your men. Those who are not Indian.

Paramahaṁsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now.

Umāpati: Yes they are afraid.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only.

Umāpati: That's their new religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest that, "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will . . .? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill."

That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says: "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?

Umāpati: Sense gratification.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Violating.

Paramahaṁsa: They have lost respect as well.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business?

Umāpati: Somehow they think they have an answer.

Prabhupāda: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question . . . yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate . . . all, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as I put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?

Umāpati: No.

Prabhupāda: The earth was flat. They believed that the world is flat. So how much imperfect knowledge they have got. So imperfect knowledge, how long it can go? Just like we are going to challenge all these rascals that life is grown out of matter. We are going to challenge. It is not a fact. So how long you can cheat people? For hundred, two hundred, thousand years, but you cannot cheat for all the time.

Umāpati: It has been going on from time immemorial.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Umāpati: . . . cheating, it has been going on from time immemorial. I guess they figure they can just keep going on for time immemorial.

Prabhupāda: No time immemorial. You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all. Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two hundred years. That's all.

Umāpati: Oh, really?

Prabhupāda: So you are being cheated for the last two hundred years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another fifty years, everything will be finished.

Karāndhara: Yes, they say now there is an anti-intellectual movement.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karāndhara: People are rebelling to science and modern progress.

Prabhupāda: What is that science? That is not science. That is ignorance. Ignorance . . .

Umāpati: They go to another extreme, they go to the . . . (indistinct) . . . extreme.

Prabhupāda: Simply ignorance. Ignorance is going on as science. Irreligion is going as religion. So how long it will go? People are becoming intelligent.

Paramahaṁsa: In Newsweek Magazine-it's the largest magazine in the United States . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Paramahaṁsa: . . . there was an article about the degradation of Christianity, and they summarized it with a cartoon, a picture of the devil, you know māyā. This is their image of māyā. And he was causing earthquakes. There was a very large earthquake in South America. It killed many thousands of people. So they attribute this to māyā. And right next to them was a picture of Richard Nixon, because he is a very famous, you know . . . he presents himself as a follower of Christ. And he's bombing Southeast Asia.

Prabhupāda: "Thou shalt not kill."

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said: "It's hell keeping up with Christians."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3).

If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā—you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati: "By knowing Kṛṣṇa only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy . . . now, our question was that we say that the man . . . I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say: "The man is made after God." Is it not?

Umāpati: "In the image . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Paramahaṁsa: "In the image of God."

Prabhupāda: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God."

Umāpati: The most ideal image of a human being is God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). So you take a perfect man. Just like Kṛṣṇa, you take a perfect man, take him as man, you see that He is God. He has got all the perfections. Even if you take him as a man.

Paramahaṁsa: No competition.

Prabhupāda: Ah no competition.

Umāpati: That is Bhagavān . . .

Prabhupāda: That is Bhagavān. Bhagavān means . . . we are giving this definition. Bhagavān means a perfect man. That's all . . . now, just like man wants to wife, to have wife. So why there is, what is called, adulteration? He wants more than one wife. Just see, perfect Kṛṣṇa, He has got sixteen thousand wives, which you cannot imagine. Here is perfection. You cannot say that a man has no inclination to have more than one wife. That is there. So that propensity is, in perfection, is there in Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He is God.

Umāpati: They refer to it as the Don Juan complex.

Prabhupāda: Juan complex, what is that?

Umāpati: It's a character in Spanish history, fictional history. The perfect lover, the image that all men would like to be, the perfect lover.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So who can be perfect lover than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa, He loves everyone. Where is that man, he loves everyone? The so-called patriot, they love their countrymen, but kill their animals. Why? Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen. Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, oh why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Kṛṣṇa is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Rādhārāṇī also. That is perfection.

Devotees: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: That is perfection. Kṛṣṇa talks with birds. These are there. One day on the bank of Yamunā He was talking with a bird. One old lady saw and said: "Oh, He's talking with a bird?" That is perfection.

Paramahaṁsa: He sounded like this? He talked like that, like the birds talk?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Therefore Kṛṣṇa's another quality is bahūdaka, He can speak in any language.

Umāpati: Birds have language? Animals have their language?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Oh yeah everyone has language. Everyone . . .

Umāpati: Father, how is it that, we can enjoy this energy we are in, Kṛṣṇa's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Kṛṣṇa's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Kṛṣṇa's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk.

Prabhupāda: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is māyā. That is māyā. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter)

Paramahaṁsa: (laughter) Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Prabhupāda: (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is māyā.

Umāpati: Just like the doctor's . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is māyā. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice."

Similarly, all these gṛhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Forty drops.

Prabhupāda: Just see. And how many, how much drops of semen he is discharging . . . that means he's spoiling his blood. But he is thinking, "I am enjoying." Would you like to, by giving your blood to enjoy? Would you like?

Umāpati: No, I don't think I'd like.

Prabhupāda: But you are doing that, every night. And that is called māyā.

Umāpati: I'm a brahmacārī . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you are.

Devotees: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: I am giving an example. This is going on. He is going to die. He has adopted a process by which he will die, and he thinks that he is enjoying. This is called māyā. Māyā means things which is not, māyā. Mā means not, yā means this. "What you are thinking, it is not that." That is called māyā. So they are in māyā means, they are thinking, these rascals, they are thinking, improving, becoming happy, advancing this māyā word will finish everything, mā, yā: "Not this."

Bhāgavata says that, "You are thinking you are becoming victorious, but you are being defeated." Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. These rascal, abodha-jātaḥ, born fools and rascal, they are becoming defeated in every step. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he does not inquire about his self, "What I am," he is simply being defeated. That's all. This is the verdict.

Umāpati: Walking further into the cave.

Prabhupāda: He's working foolishly like animal. He does not know what is soul, what he is, nothing of the sort. He is working hard day and night and he is thinking, "I am becoming victorious." This is called māyā. What victory? Have you won victory over birth, death, the real problem? "No. We have won victory. We can now, without horse, we can go with a car." So what is that? With a horse or without horse, you cannot go anywhere else. You will be here within this world. That's all.

Paramahaṁsa: There is a poem, Prabhupāda . . .

Prabhupāda: Just like these rascals, now they have invented car. You know that? Formerly they were walking.

Karāndhara: Yes. Now he is pulling car.

Prabhupāda: That's all. What is that? That within these . . . that golf area.

(Apparently, a man is mowing grass on a machine in the background)

That's all. (laughing) You know the cow? The cow is stuck up with a pole in India and long rope, and he's thinking, "I am free."

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: They have made a longer rope.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And he is thinking, "I am so free." Is it not? This rascaldom is going on.

Paramahaṁsa: The one who wrote Paradise Lost, Milton, he also wrote a poem which said that, "A working man is nothing but a devil's slave."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.

Paramahaṁsa: "He works so hard for his money, but not his life can he save."

Prabhupāda: No, what he will do with the money? He will satisfy his senses, that's all.

Paramahaṁsa: So he sells his life.

Prabhupāda: So he's servant of the senses.

Umāpati: He sells his energy . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Umāpati: Kṛṣṇa's energy that is in him, māyā's energy.

Prabhupāda: Hare Krishna . . . (break) . . . transmigration of soul. Suppose this time I am very great scientist, and next life I become a tree like this. What is my advancement? Stand up for ten thousand years. What is the advancement?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Going backwards.

Prabhupāda: Yes. not . . . going to hell, that's all. We are trying to be naked; nature will say: "Yes, you stand here naked for ten thousand years." Yes. That is the punishment for being naked. Human life is not meant for becoming naked. That is according to Vedic civilization a great sin. You see. So their, their propensity they are increasing to become naked like our George . . . what's his name? Lennon, Lennon. So next time he is going to be tree, stand up. Otherwise where from the trees come? They cannot explain. You become tree. That's all. Just like the Nalakūvara; they were taking bath naked without caring for Nārada. All right, you become naked for one hundred years.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among the trees also, there are different grades of trees, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Cows.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya.

And that cow killing is going on in the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religious? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All . . . and especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason? Eh?

Umāpati: Uncontrollable tongue.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now what is that bird who is killed in Christmas?

Devotees: Turkey.

Prabhupāda: Turkey, you see . . . Christmas, God's Christmas, Jesus Christ. He said: "Thou shalt not kill." But his birthday is observed by killing, killing, killing, killing, killing.

Paramahaṁsa: And ham, ham. Ham is also cow, isn't it?

Karāndhara: Pig.

Paramahaṁsa: Pig. Pig and turkey they have.

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Actually, they kill the turkey on Thanksgiving, which is the day that they acknowledge and give thanks to the Lord.

Umāpati: For this great country.

Prabhupāda: For giving them opportunity to kill? And where is the opportunity? The Lord said, "Thou shalt not kill." Where do they get the opportunity of killing? That is another blaspheming. Where do they get this opportunity? They manufacture.

Śukadeva: In Seattle not only do they eat cows, but they run out of cows and they start eating horses . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śukadeva: . . . I said they have stopped eating cows in Seattle.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Śukadeva: It is very famous now to buy horsemeat. They have horse steaks instead of cow steaks. They have become so degraded now that they are eating horses.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Paramahaṁsa: They ran out of cows . . .

Śukadeva: They ran out of cows . . .

Paramahaṁsa: Cows cost too much.

Śukadeva: So now they are killing horses.

Prabhupāda: So now they will eat their old father. Yes. No price. Homemade. (laughter) Homemade concession.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think it's quite wet, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this side.

Paramahaṁsa: Maybe drier over that way.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Anywhere you go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This side is better, actually.

Paramahaṁsa: Not only did Christ tell them not to kill, but he also, he himself said that all his disciples were like sheep and animals and he was their herder. So he gave the example that we are all like, innocent . . . we should be like innocent animals. So many examples he gave like that.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember this in Pittsburgh last year Śrīla Prabhupāda, in that meeting with the bishops, there was a Christian father, a Catholic father. So the question raised that Śrīla Prabhupāda said: "Thou shalt not kill," in the Bible, in the Commandments.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I was invited by some Christian priest in Melbourne, very good gathering. I said also the same thing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think his answer was "When the Bible was written, Christ didn't mean this way." That was his answer.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he's expert. He has found out. The rascal simply beat him with shoes . . . that what Christian . . . Christ could not find out, you have found out. You are so great. Thank you very much. (laughter) You are more intelligent than Christ. Oh. So why Bible. Why not write your Bible? Let us follow.

Paramahaṁsa: They are doing there is now something like 451 different translations. Just like the Gītā. They interpret in so many ways.

Prabhupāda: No Gītā, or . . . many translations, but the original Gītā is perfect.

Paramahaṁsa: Yeah. Well they are not even sure that the Bible is now . . . as a matter of fact it's a known fact that so many of the excerpts from Christ's disciples were, how you say, censored. There were parts taken out.

Prabhupāda: Some Bible authorities say that there is no soul of the animal. St. Joseph or something.

Devotees: St. Thomas.

Karāndhara: . . . theology . . . (indistinct) . . . so hard to find . . . that was St. Augustine.

Prabhupāda: Just see. How great fool he was. And he's a saint. You see.

Karāndhara: Well the reasons are there in his book he presented . . . well he said if there is soul in the animal, then we can't eat the animal by the same concept he said.

Prabhupāda: No, no eat or not eat, he can eat that is . . .

Karāndhara: Well this was his logic.

Prabhupāda: But how you can say that they have no soul? Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One life is the food of another.

Prabhupāda: Another. That is not the question. That is also science. And this is also science that every living entity has got soul . . .

Umāpati: St. Augustine . . . (indistinct) . . . philosophy on the basis for killing animals it is also . . . (indistinct)

Karāndhara: . . . kill the animals that means there is also soul in plants so . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karāndhara: . . . so if there is a soul in plants

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karāndhara: . . . if we eat, we have to eat something.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You eat. That I have already said, you eat but how you can deny this science? That proves your foolishness.

Karāndhara: (indistinct) . . . somehow they did it at the same time.

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . how you can kill the science . . . you kill your father, your mother, anything you can kill, that is another thing but how can you say: "My father has no soul, my mother has no soul." That you cannot say, that is most unscientific.

Karāndhara: I think people take it for granted.

Prabhupāda: You eat, that I have already said, you have to eat but why do you say something which is not fact?

Umāpati: They say, "what is the difference between animal and plant?"

Prabhupāda: Eh? There maybe difference. Between difference between you and me that difference you will find amongst all souls we are all different but that does not mean that we have no soul. Everyone of us has soul . . . (indistinct) . . . must be there. Every living entity has s(oul). That is science.

Paramahaṁsa: The Bible also has. There is a part where. Where . . . (indistinct) . . . is instructing humanity saying herbs shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . and the fruits of the trees . . . (indistinct) . . . seems so degraded that one must eat.

Prabhupāda: Well . . . (indistinct) . . . object. How you should drop science?

Umāpati: There is a big . . . (indistinct) . . . plants . . . (indistinct) . . . should be authorised.

Prabhupāda: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26) so if there is any responsibility for killing it is Kṛṣṇa's. We take prasādam, therefore we have no responsibility. We have no responsibility . . . why so many players today? (refers to golf course)

Paramahaṁsa: All the doctors have a holiday Tuesday. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Then they must be lawyers. (laughter)

Karāndhara: (indistinct) . . . now.

Prabhupāda: Ha.

Karāndhara: (indistinct) . . . so must pay at least twenty dollars . . . (laughter)

Umāpati: (indistinct) . . . of course the value of money has gone down accordingly . . . (indistinct)

Karāndhara: Same as when you go to India

Umāpati: (indistinct) . . . money . . .

Karāndhara: Well unofficially yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . Hari-nāma, hari-nāma . . . so write this book.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Really? . . .

Prabhupāda: You've understood reality . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I've understood . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: . . . Śakti . . . acintya, means . . . cintya means within your perception . . . (indistinct) . . . and there is . . . (indistinct) . . . and there is . . . in your process if you want to send the water up, you have to pump it. There must be pump . . . (indistinct) . . . this is acintya. So there is no pipe, so how you can . . . (indistinct) . . . pumping machine without any pump . . . (indistinct) . . . this is acintya . . . far away . . . (indistinct) . . . energy, do you follow? So how you can explain . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because of the hormones.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Why do they not go here? . . . not a rascal. Go here. Effective . . . (indistinct)

Umāpati: The still haven't done it.

Prabhupāda: This is a part of my body you have to accept that, how it is happening? . . . (indistinct) . . . very small particle that acintya śakti is there. Find out, where? . . . (indistinct) . . . don't try to . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They explain that their method is correct but it is something else.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . theory. The fishes go (laughter) talks (laughter) and the answer is why (laughter) everything is correct (laughter) all scientists . . . (indistinct) . . . these kind of talks . . . (indistinct) . . . Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Similarly . . . (indistinct) . . . it is no use . . . (indistinct) (end)