730718 - Conversation - London

Conversations by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730718R1-LONDON - July 18, 1973 - 55:54 Minutes

Prabhupāda: So what is that origin of all things?

Malcolm:

(pause)

You ask me something for which I have no words.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Our searching is . . . not searching. We take the origin of everything: Kṛṣṇa. In the Bhagavad-gītā . . .

(aside) Call Paṇḍitjī. Find out the verse, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate.

Just like in this orange, there is water, very nice, tasteful. How it generated?

(pause)

(Pradyumna enters, offers obeisances)

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

Pradyumna: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

Prabhupāda: This, origin. So as a scientist, what is your opinion upon this?

Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Malcolm: It is not for me to speak.

Prabhupāda: You don't speak?

Śyāmasundara: He's a little humble. He . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can take it from us, from the Bhagavad-gītā, that God is the origin of everything: earth, water, air . . .

(child sounds)

(aside) Come on. He can eat?

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Give him one.

Mother: (to child) You want some orange?

Prabhupāda: Take one.

Śyāmasundara: Orange.

Prabhupāda: Come on. Come on. Yes, yes, yes. Come on. Thank you. (laughter)

Mother: Ta.

Śyāmasundara: He's the youngest one I've ever seen.

Prabhupāda: How old he is? One year?

Malcolm: One year.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. He has got teeth?

Mother: A few.

Prabhupāda: Few.

Mother: Four.

Prabhupāda: God is the source of everything. The vast water has come from the body of God. Just like from your body a little quantity of water comes out, perspiring. Does it not? So we are limited. So one ounce, two ounce, we can produce. But God is unlimited. He can produce by perspiration millions of oceans.

This is our understanding. God is unlimited; we are limited. We are also producing so many things through our body. Similarly, God is unlimited. His body has got unlimited potency. So everything comes from the body of God. This is our simple understanding. God is the origin of everything.

ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo

mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate

iti matvā bhajante māṁ

budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ

(BG 10.8)

One who understands this philosophy, he becomes a devotee. Budha. He's in full knowledge.

(aside) This is from our tree? No. These apples.

Paramahaṁsa: No, Prabhupāda. They're very . . . somewhat bitter still.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Paramahaṁsa: They're somewhat bitter.

Śyāmasundara: Ours are still green. Not yet ripened. In September they'll be ready.

Prabhupāda: Oh, I see.

Paramahaṁsa: If you want, I can clean it and cut it.

Prabhupāda: No. Just I am asking.

(to child) Take. Come on.

(pause)

Another gentleman was to come here?

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, there's one man coming later.

Prabhupāda: When?

Mukunda: He's expected in about five minutes.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, at seven.

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to ask you that in your lectures you continually speak of the ten saṁskāras that children should have.

Prabhupāda: Well, that is not possible. (laughs)

Paramahaṁsa: Oh.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. It is very difficult. One saṁskāra, that initiation saṁskāra, and marriage saṁskāra—two, three saṁskāras can be done, not the ten. It is not possible. Now the circumstances will not allow. It is very difficult.

Śyāmasundara: One thing that Malcolm and I were talking about before was that he was lamenting that our educational system nowadays in the West, material education, practically spoils the child to understand spiritual life.

Prabhupāda: Why in the West? Everywhere.

Malcolm: More in the West because the child is more constrained in his molding.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole defect is that we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we do not know how to conduct business with the goal of life. At the present moment, in every field, they are missing the goal of life.

Malcolm: They seem oppressed by the weight of number, that there are too many.

Prabhupāda: No, goal is one.

Malcolm: No, people.

Prabhupāda: No, people do not know the goal. That is the defect of modern civilization. Not modern; that is the defect of material existence.

Malcolm: But a number of people over a certain size make a goal by the number of people.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? What is that?

Pradyumna: When a number of people think in a certain way?

Malcolm: No. The number of people make the goal not of them, but of the number.

Paramahaṁsa: Mass. Mass opinion usually forms society.

Malcolm: Not . . . no, not mass opinion. Not the . . . not the involvement of the people, but the number of the people.

Prabhupāda: The millions and trillions number . . .

Śyāmasundara: By unanimous opinion, by unanimous pursuit of some goal, that becomes the common goal.

Paramahaṁsa: Fashion. Fashion?

Prabhupāda: No, therefore I say . . .

Malcolm: No, no. Number . . . (wife whispers something) I know, I . . . that when a number of people become beyond a certain size, that in order for that size to maintain, there becomes a code of written law whose existence is to preserve the number, and it becomes the goal of the people, and it is the goal of number and not of the people. And the people I see . . .

Prabhupāda: The people are numberless. Therefore the goal should be numberless? People are numberless. We cannot count. It is not possible. Therefore the goal should be also numberless?

(pause)

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us that actually the amount of people in the world has nothing to do with the form of education. Simply the . . . for example, if everyone in the world was Kṛṣṇa conscious, then where would there be a question of overpopulation? Because there would be harmony throughout society, because the center of the society would be Kṛṣṇa. But unfortunately, due to the overpopulation, we have so many different goals, different interests, and therefore there's continual clash. So there's nothing against overpopulation as long as people are raised in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Malcolm: Is overpopulation, then, a more important problem?

Paramahaṁsa: Well, for example, even in animal society, there is more animals, there's more insects, there's more birds than human society. But there's no question . . . they have no starvation. They have no nuclear warfare. Because they live as they're . . . as Kṛṣṇa has meant them to be, as their karma dictates. But in our situation we are meant to understand Kṛṣṇa.

This, the goal of human life, is to use our developed consciousness to serve God. But unfortunately, since we misuse this for selfish motives, therefore we have descended lower than animals. Therefore we have not even the simple harmony that animal life has. Therefore we have mass warfare. Therefore we have greed, economic distress and pollution. All these things are caused simply because we have not used our human life for understanding Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: I think what you are saying, in a sense, is that generally the people are innocent. They grow up, and the goals of life are forced upon them, sort of, and actually that is not . . . the real goal is still missing.

Malcolm: They would say, yes, that there is . . . the number is too many.

Śyāmasundara: The number of goals?

Malcolm: No, the number of people to support a system of return.

Śyāmasundara: Return to the real goal.

Malcolm: To the real goal. They feel oppressed into supporting the number system because it's . . .

Śyāmasundara: Due to a larger number of people, is it possible to return all these people to the real goal?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. As there is medicine for certain disease, if, in that particular disease, the prescribed medicine is given, then the disease will be cured. Is it not? Medical science, they have discovered medicine for a certain type of disease. So if the diseased man takes that medicine, particular, then he'll be cured. Similarly, if people take what is the actual goal of life by philosophy and logic, then their goal of life will be one. He must agree to take it, just like the diseased man must agree to take the medicine. Then he's cured.

Malcolm: If a man reaches his maturity of years and leaves a Western school, and he has the words which say: "Know thyself," may he reject his family ties?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of rejecting or accepting to understand the goal of life. The goal of life is meant for everyone. May be a family man or without family, it doesn't matter. Just like eating. Eating is for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's a family man or not family man. It is his essential. Similarly, the goal of life is also essential to know for everyone. It doesn't matter whether he's family man or not family man. It doesn't matter.

Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Malcolm: Is the medicine in the seeking?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Some are seeking, but the medicine is there.

Śyāmasundara: Is looking for the medicine part of the medicine?

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no necessity of looking for it. The medicine's already there, goal of life. So we have to take information from authorities what is the goal of life. Just like this child. The child, he knows that, "My father is goal of life" or "My mother is goal of life." He may walk all over the room, but he knows that, "Ultimately, my father is goal." Similarly, our goal of life is the supreme father.

Now, if this child is taken away from this room, he'll cry. He'll not be able to express that he wants the goal of his life, his father and mother. He'll simply cry, missing. Similarly, our goal of life is the supreme father. But because we are missing, we are crying here, throughout the universe, throughout the creation. We are simply crying. This is called struggle for existence.

But the real goal of life is . . .

(aside referring to child) There is fire. Don't allow him to go there. There is fire.

Now, he doesn't remain there; he comes to the mother, the goal of life. Similarly, we have got our goal of life, a supreme father. We are missing that. Simply one has to know that, "This is our goal of life. We were searching in vain for so many other goals of life." Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). The goal of life is the Supreme Lord, Viṣṇu. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ.

They have missed the goal of life on account of their propensity to become happy within this material world. And that is the missing point. He cannot be happy without reaching . . . the same example: this child cannot be happy without being in the association of the father. If this child is taken away and he's given nice food, he'll cry. He'll cry, because the goal of life is missing. Similarly, we are missing the goal of life. Therefore we are not satisfied in any way in this material world. Therefore Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). This struggle for existence is going on because they do not know that the goal of life is God, Kṛṣṇa, or Viṣṇu.

Malcolm: If the child is taken from the parents, he will cry, but he will stop.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Malcolm: But he will stop when time is past.

Prabhupāda: Again cry. Again cry.

Malcolm: When time in years pass, he will forget, and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. That forgetfulness is forced. He's . . . he's not happy.

Malcolm: If he would then, when he is a grown person, recapture or re-feel the link to his reason for being, he must go back in his experience or thought to the point at which he cried to feel again the feeling of being lost. Now, the Western youth seem to have been forced to accept their position, and the position that they have accepted gives them no freedom to go back and find the point at which they felt the experience of the thing they had lost.

So in their minds they would say: "There is something missing. There is no God. But there is a God. Yet I must find him with my mind." And then they know through the search that it is only through going back through their own years of experience to the point at which they had lost that they will find it. But for the Westerner, it clashes with his total Western heritage, the thing imposed upon him by his senses, which is that he may not isolate himself from his community in order to go down. And the young people cannot move, because this point holds them.

Prabhupāda: No. The young people, they are moving. They are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no check. Because they are Western boys, there is no check. Just like they're all Europeans, Americans. So how they are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It doesn't matter whether Western, Eastern. Natural propensity is the same, either in the East or the West. So it doesn't matter. That is not impediment. Anywhere, the science is . . . just like your physical science. It is as good as in the West and in the East. For the East, there cannot be a different physical science. The same science can be taught in the East and the West.

Malcolm: And the same . . .

Prabhupāda: Any science does not depend on East and West understanding. Science is science.

Malcolm: No. I'm talking not of science, but of education, which . . .

Prabhupāda: No, education is different. Education may be wrong or right, but science is always the fact. "Two plus two equal to four"—that is equally good in the East and West, not that in the Western countries, two plus two will be five. So similarly, any scientific knowledge, it does not depend on East and West understanding. It is good for everywhere. Similarly, to understand the science of God, it does not depend on the Western culture or Eastern culture. One must be serious to understand. Then it is equally available.

Ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). These material impediments cannot check progress in the science of God. Cannot. Apratihatā, without any checking. That we are experiencing, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness did not checked anywhere. We have got branches all over the world. Any country, there is no language difficulty. Wherever we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, they join, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no checking.

Even Africa, they are also chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even this child will chant. They clap. You have seen that a small child is . . .? I think he . . . about six months old. So there is no checking. For spiritual understanding there is no checking. The child, six-months-old child, clapping, that means he's joining with the system. He's not sophisticated. He's new child, but automatically . . . so there is no checking.

(pause)

Śyāmasundara: If the science is available to everyone without impediment, then there must be the proper teacher, isn't it? There must be a teacher of the science . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: . . . where people learn. That has been a difficulty here. There's been no real teachers until . . .

Prabhupāda: No, everyone gives his own opinion. Everyone will say . . . he'll not dare to say that he's speaking right, scientifically. He'll say: "It is my opinion." To avoid any difficulty, he'll say: "In my opinion it is this." I think he's speaking of that, (that) there are so many people, and they have got so many opinions.

Śyāmasundara: How do we know, then, what is the real fact?

Prabhupāda: We have to understand it from a real man who knows it. Upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ.

(aside) Find out that. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā.

So we have to approach the real person who has seen. Then you'll get the right goal of life.

Pradyumna:

tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

(BG 4.34)

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

Prabhupāda: So we have to approach a person who has seen the truth. It is not difficult. Just like if you are suffering from some disease, you have to go to a doctor who knows how to treat. It is same thing, like that.

Śyāmasundara: How do we know he's a good doctor or not? By his credential, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: No. That also . . . therefore it is called sādhu-śāstra-guru-vākya. Three things there are for knowledge: sādhu, saintly person; śāstra, scripture; and guru. So one statement we have to corroborate with other statement. If you accept somebody as guru, then you have to corroborate it whether śāstra says that he is guru or any saintly person says that he is guru. This is the way. Similarly, when you take a scripture, you have to know it from the spiritual master whether that is actually scripture, whether it is accepted by the saintly person, sādhu. Similarly sādhu also, whether guru says: "Yes, he is sādhu," whether śāstra says: "Yes, he is sādhu." There are three things, sādhu-śāstra-guru. So to accept one, you have to take the opinion of the other two. Then you'll get the right way.

Just like who is a guru? That is stated in the śāstras. Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham, śāstra says. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12): "One must approach a guru." Then the same question comes, "Who is guru?" That is also stated, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: "He's well versed in Vedas, knowledge of Vedas, and fully Kṛṣṇa conscious." He is guru. Just like how do you know that, "Here is a medical practitioner"? Before going for treatment, you find out. How do you find out?

Śyāmasundara: Some friend, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, you have to take information. Similarly, guru, according to śāstra, who is guru, he must be confirmed by sādhu, saintly person, by śāstra. Then he's guru. Sadhu-śāstra, guru-vākya, tinete kariyā aikya.

Haṁsadūta: What's the difference between a sādhu and a guru? Sadhu means authorities like Vyāsa?

Prabhupāda: Guru . . . he must be a sādhu.

Haṁsadūta: It means the previous ācāryas.

Prabhupāda: A sādhu means:

titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ

suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhutānām

ajāta-śatravaḥ śāntāḥ

sādhavaḥ sādhu-bhūṣaṇāḥ

(SB 3.25.21)

Everything, there is definition, who is sādhu, who is guru . . .

Haṁsadūta: Yes.

Prabhupāda: . . . what is śāstra. Everything is there. You have to know it. What is avatāra. That is my business, how to know. But there is. Everything's there. What . . . everyone can know it. Sādhavaḥ. Sādhu. Sum and substance of sādhu means devotee. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). "He's sādhu."

Who? Ananya-bhāk: "Without any diversion of attention, he's completely engaged in My devotional service. Even if he has got some minor defects, still, because he is completely surrendered and engaged in My service, he's sādhu." Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ. So this is the test of sādhu. Sādhu means he must be a devotee. Sādhu does not mean having saffron color and long beard and doing all nonsense. No. Sādhu means . . . first test is that he is unflinching, without any deviation. Api cet sudurā . . . bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Ananya-bhāk means he does not know anything except the service of the Lord. That is the qualification of sādhu.

So similarly, in other places also, the definition of sādhu is there. Sādhu means titikṣavaḥ: he's very tolerant because a sādhu has to face so many opposing elements, and sometimes very offensive, but he has to tolerate. Titikṣavaḥ. At the same time, kāruṇikāḥ, very merciful. The same man who is torturing him, torturing him, he is trying to convince him about Kṛṣṇa. That means very merciful. He's not rejecting. Although he's torturing him, but he's trying to convince him, Kṛṣṇa.

Therefore kāruṇikāḥ. And he is not friend of any particular society or man. Suhṛdaḥ sarva-dehinām: he is well-wisher of all living entities. It doesn't matter whether he's Indian, American or black and white. No, no conception. Or even human being or animal. He is kind to everyone; friend, well-wisher of everyone. Ajāta-śatravaḥ. He does not create any enemy. Such . . . these are the qualification of sādhu.

Śāstra means the transcendental literature, not ordinary writings. That is śāstra. Just like Bhagavad-gītā is śāstra, Veda is śāstra, or Bible, śāstra. Scripture means given by God or His authorized representative. That is śāstra. So sādhu-śāstra-guru. And guru means who is completely devotee of Kṛṣṇa, without any material motive. This is sādhu-śāstra-guru. Anyābhilāṣitāśūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167).

(baby sounds)

Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated that, you were lecturing, that, and unless one performs the proper saṁskāras for the children, they will become degraded. They will not follow the regulative principles and such . . . they become unwanted population?

Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world we have got so many obligation.

Paramahaṁsa: For example, in devotee families, if we perform the proper principles in raising children . . .

Prabhupāda: No, your, your, your function is very simple—you become Kṛṣṇa conscious and train your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.

Paramahaṁsa: But there's always a chance that they may not, as well.

Prabhupāda: That chance is also to you also. Māyā is always there. But our duty should be like that. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and raise your children to that standard. Then it is all right. Just like we are teaching in Dallas. There is nothing extraordinary. The children are there; they're learning how to read, how to write, at the same time rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārātrika, joining in the saṅkīrtana, playing mṛdaṅga, dancing, taking prasādam.

(aside) That's all right.

By such training, automatically they'll be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then all your duties are complete. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your duty is finished.

Malcolm: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious without believing yourself?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Can you make a child Kṛṣṇa conscious if you yourself don't believe in Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: If you do not believe? If the father does not believe, you mean to say?

Malcolm: If the father does not feel.

Prabhupāda: Yes, well, everything is individual. Father is individual and child is individual. Just like Hiraṇyakaśipu.

Malcolm: Yes, but can a father impose on a child something which he does not believe himself?

Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is transcendental position. Once one gets a little touch with Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he'll make progress. Just like the wick in a firework. Firework, a big, what is called? Potacker?

Haṁsadūta: Firecracker.

Prabhupāda: Cracker. The long wick, you just set fire: (makes sound) tli-tli-tli-tli-tli-tli, and when it comes: tung! (laughter) It is like that. You just set up the fire, and then one day he'll become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: So the knowledge is absolute. It works with anyone.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even if he does not complete, whatever he has done, that is complete. Because it is spiritual; it is not material. In material world, suppose if you want to do something, you have to make the background. And while doing the background, if you could not make further progress, everything is finished. But spiritual work is not like that. From the very beginning, whatever you are doing, that is asset. That is to your credit. Nothing is lost. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt (BG 2.40). Even a little done in spiritual consciousness, that can save you from the greatest danger.

(pause)

Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you are going?

Indian guest: It'll take me about two hours to reach there.

Prabhupāda: I see. I see.

Indian guest: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Do you have any questions to ask?

Malcolm: No, I may have questions to ask, but they're not very good questions.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Śyāmasundara: So the man has come?

Devotee: No, prasādam is ready.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. They're bringing prasādam? Oh, that's nice.

Prabhupāda: So how such big men, minister, could accept such position of a mendicant and live? Now, gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau . . . so they got a better thing. They dipped into the ocean of the gopīs ecstasy. They were always thinking of the gopīs activities with Kṛṣṇa. Gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur, vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau (Śrī Sad-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka, verse 4).

So unless one gets a better thing, he cannot give up the less important thing. So when . . . unless one gets that better thing—better humor, better mellow—they cannot give up these material engagements. Therefore, to get that better thing, it is advised that part of your hard labor you offer to Kṛṣṇa. This is called karma-yoga. You remain in your karma, but nirbandhe . . . nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe, be touched with Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and spend at least fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa. Then gradually, you come to the . . . just like the Gosvāmīs came. So this is the policy. Otherwise, for Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no need. Everything Kṛṣṇa will supply.

Mādhavendra Purī installed a Deity. Now, for months, years together, only festival was going on.

(pause)

And another good example is that if somebody is in business and if he spends for Kṛṣṇa, that is a very good example for the karmīs. Because everyone is not going to stop their karmī mentality. So this will be an example that, "You are engaged in material. Now spend like this." That is another preaching. Loka-saṅgraha. This is called loka-saṅgraha, to collect ordinary men for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like Janaka-rāja, he was a king, but great saintly person.

Paramahaṁsa: Lord Rāmacandra's father?

Prabhupāda: No, father-in-law.

Paramahaṁsa: Father-in-law.

Prabhupāda: The great mahājanas, out of the twelve, Janaka-rāja is one.

svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ

kapila kumāraḥ manuḥ

janaka bhīṣma prahlāda

balir vaiyāsakir vayam

(SB 6.3.20)

These twelve. Brahmā, Svayambhūḥ; Nārada Muni; Śambhuḥ, Lord Śiva; svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilaḥ (SB 6.3.20), Kapiladeva; kumāra, catuḥsana-kumāra; manuḥ, Manu; then Janaka, Bhīṣma, Prahlāda, then Śukadeva Gosvāmī, Bali Mahārāja and Yamarāja, vayam. So these are eight mahājanas. Out of them, Nārada is brahmacārī, Brahmā is gṛhastha . . . svayambhūr nāradaḥ . . . Śambhu is gṛhastha. Then Kapila, brahmacārī, Kumāra, brahmacārī. Then Manu, gṛhastha; Janaka-rāja, gṛhastha; Bhīṣma, brahmacārī; then Śukadeva Gosvāmī, brahmacārī; then Bali Mahārāja, gṛhastha; Yamarāja, gṛhastha.

So there are gṛhastha, brahmacārī, it doesn't matter. Everyone can become mahājana by his example of service to Kṛṣṇa. It doesn't matter. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also never said that a . . . one has to become brahmacārī. No. He Himself was gṛhastha. So there is no difficulty. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ kapilaḥ kumāro manuḥ . . . (SB 6.3.20).

(pause)

(prasādam is brought in) You take.

Śyāmasundara: His argument in the newspaper by other people complaining against Zaehner's argument. Not members of our movement, but other people, Englishmen. "Zaehner is a fool," this and that.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, they have called. He is a fool.

Śyāmasundara: We'll bring them up. They're in the Times today, Letters to the Editor.

Prabhupāda: And we have directly called him fool, rascal.

Śyāmasundara: Other people are also criticizing. They find other things in his argument that are not . . . they say he has to realize Bhagavad-gītā before he can criticize anything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not realize. He does not know anything. You can read this letter. (chuckles) It is very interesting.

Śyāmasundara: To Zaehner, this one? Or to . . . Alistair Hardy.

Prabhupāda: General, general. Reply. (laughter)

Mukunda: We've also invited him to come here.

Śyāmasundara: No one defended him in the newspaper, Observer.

Prabhupāda: So other protests have been published in the paper?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I'll bring them up to you. (end)