730907 - Lecture BG 18.41 to Uppsala University Student Assembly - Stockholm

Lectures by Date, 1973

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

730907BG-STOCKHOLM - September 07, 1973 - 62:02 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

brāhmaṇa-kṣatriya-viśāṁ

śūdrāṇāṁ ca parantapa

karmāṇi pravibhaktāni

svabhāva-prabhavair guṇaiḥ

(BG 18.41)

I shall try to explain the social structure of the human society as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā. In previous chapters Śrī Kṛṣṇa has explained: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By quality and by work, there is, or there must be, four divisions of the social structure. Cātur-varṇyam: first class, second class, third class and fourth class. That is very natural. Just like in your body, my body, is divided into four divisions.

The head, head department. In every, I mean to say, unit, there is head department, the first-class department, the second-class department. So we can understand from our own body, there is head department, there is arms department, there is belly department and there is the leg department. So head is first class. Because if the arms, belly and legs are there and head is cut off, then everything is useless. If the head is there, arm is cut off, you can go on with your business. So there is four divisions everywhere. Kṛṣṇa says:

na tad asti pṛthivyāṁ vā

divi deveṣu vā punaḥ

sattvaṁ prakṛti-jair muktaṁ

yad ebhiḥ syāt tribhir guṇaiḥ

(BG 18.40)

Kṛṣṇa says that either on this planet or in other planets in the outer space, or anywhere, the three qualities or three modes of material nature is working—the modes of goodness, the modes of passion and the modes of ignorance. Everywhere you'll find these three classes of living entities. Not three classes, four classes—the first class, goodness; second class, passion; third class, mixed passion and ignorance; and fourth class, ignorance. And below the fourth class, all fifth class, pañcama.

So according to these three modes of material nature, there must be division of the society. The first-class men are called brāhmaṇa, most learned scholar. Learned scholar means, as I was explaining, one who has complete knowledge of God. That is learned scholar. Otherwise, to know how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse and how to defend, this, these knowledge is also there in the animals. They know how to eat. There is no need of university for teaching how to eat or how to sleep or how to have sex life or how to defend. These are animal necessities. But actually human being should be still more advanced in knowledge. That knowledge is not comprising only eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That knowledge is to understand the Absolute Truth, God. That knowledge.

Therefore the Vedānta-sūtra philosophy, that begins with the word athāto brahma jijñāsā. Now, this life, this human form of life, is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Brahma means the Absolute Truth. So that should be the subject matter for studying in human form of life. So Bhagavad-gītā is the right book to understand about that Brahman, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or the Absolute Truth, whatever you call. The Absolute Truth is known in three phases: Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

(SB 1.2.11)

The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized from three angles of visions. Some of them are realizing the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman, some of them are realizing the Absolute Truth as the localized Paramātmā, and some of them are realizing the Absolute Truth as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absolute Truth is one, but because we are under different modes of material nature, we are understanding the Absolute Truth in three modes of material nature.

So Kṛṣṇa says that these three modes of material nature is current all over the universe, even in the topmost planet down to the lowest planet. Therefore he says, na tad asti pṛthivyāṁ vā divi deveṣu vā punaḥ. Pṛthivyām means on this earth, or in the other higher planetary system or even the heavenly planets. Everywhere. Sattvaṁ prakṛti-jair muktam. Nowhere anyone is free from the influence of these modes of material nature. Sattvam means existence. Sattvaṁ prakṛti-jaiḥ. Prakṛti-jaiḥ means by the material nature, guṇaiḥ, means the modes, this goodness, passion and ignorance. Yad ebhiḥ syāt tribhir guṇaiḥ.

Everything, everywhere, even amongst the plant life, beast life, there these three guṇas are working. Just like some trees, they're useless—neither produce any nice fruit nor flower. That is third class, in ignorance. And in animals also. Just like cows, they are first-class animal, in the modes of goodness, supplying so valuable, nutritious food, milk. But the cats and dogs, they are third-class animal. This is the calculation of the three modes of material nature. Either human being or animals or trees, birds, everywhere, Kṛṣṇa says, or in the higher planetary system, everywhere these three modes of material nature is working.

Therefore, in the human society, because there are three modes of material nature, the classification should be made scientifically, according to these three modes of material nature. And that is explained by Bhagavān, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), four classes of men: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men who can understand even up to the knowledge of Brahman, brahma jānāti iti brāhmaṇa. And the second class are the kṣatriyas, or the administrative class of men, and the third-class are the mercantile class of men, industrialists, traders, agriculturalists. Everything will be explained. And the fourth-class men means workers. They have no intelligence, but they find out some good master and get some money. That's all. So there are four classes. So here Kṛṣṇa says:

brāhmaṇa-kṣatriya-viśāṁ

śūdrāṇāṁ ca parantapa

karmāṇi pravibhaktāni

svabhāva-prabhavair guṇaiḥ

(BG 18.41)

According to the modes of material nature, the brāhmaṇa should be selected, the kṣatriya should be selected, the vaiśyas, or the mercantile people, should be selected, and the śūdras, the worker class, should be selected.

Then Kṛṣṇa says that how the brahminical class should be educated. This should be taken very seriously by educational department of all countries. And it is the duty of the government to see that every man according to his quality is working, is employed. Not that . . . secular state does not mean they should be callous about the quality and work of the citizens. There must be department of practical psychology to see the students, in which class he belongs to.

Either he belongs to the first class, brāhmaṇa class, or second class, the kṣatriya class, administrator class, and the third class, mercantile, or business man, and the fourth class, śūdras, worker. If education is given according to the quality and position, then there will be complete system in the whole human society. Take the same example: Just like in your body, if your head is working nicely, if your hand is working nicely, if your stomach is working nicely, if your leg is working nicely, then the whole body is to be considered as healthy and working nicely. If any part of this body, either head, leg or arms or belly, does not work nicely, then the whole body becomes diseased. So that is the instruction of Kṛṣṇa, Bhagavad-gītā. That . . .

Not that . . . now there is a hobby that "classless society." Classless society cannot be. That is not possible. So long you are in the material world there must be classes. By nature, there is. Just like even in the birds, there are a class of birds known as the crows and there is a class of birds which are called the swans. The swans will try to reside in a place where there is very clean water, flowers, good trees, nice arrangement parking. So they will flock there. "Birds of the same feather flock together." And the crows, they will flock . . . in your country you don't find many crows, but in India there are many crows. They go to the place where all garbages are there. They'll enjoy there.

So there is division actually, taste. But one thing is, that the human form of body, although there is natural such division, but one can be raised to the higher position by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So far material body is concerned, you cannot change the quality. This is already. One has got the particular type of body by nature's arrangement according to the quality. According to the quality. Now, if you want to change him to the better quality, then you have to accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because Kṛṣṇa consciousness is on the spiritual platform. It has nothing to do with the material platform. From the material platform you cannot change anyone's quality.

For example, I can tell you, practical example, in United States, America, the government is spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication habit, LSD habit. Many responsible government officers, they have given us certificate. But they could not control. But in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, anyone who is coming, even though coming from the LSD-addicted society, still, as soon as he comes to our Society he gives up not only LSD or any intoxication, he gives up even drinking tea, coffee and smoking cigarette.

You can at once check. Because our principle is—anyone who wants to join seriously this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, just like these boys, they have joined, our first condition is that one must give up these four prohibited things: no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. So that is being possible. Although they are habituated to all these things from their very beginning of life, but as soon as they take to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness activities, they give up these habits very easily.

So if, practically, the world wants classless society, then one has to take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Then there will be classless society. We have got in our Society boys and girls from various parts of the world. There are Africans, there are Indians, there are Canadians, Englishmen, American, Australian, but they have forgotten that he is Englishman or American or Australian or black or white or Indian. No. They have forgotten. They are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the importance of the movement. If you want classless society, actually pure, without any contamination of these material modes of nature, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the prime movement.

That is the definition of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam, hṛṣīkeṇa (CC Madhya 19.170), ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanaṁ bhaktir uttamā (CC Madhya 19.167). Bhakti, devotional service, first-class devotional service, can be achieved when one is freed from all designation. So long one feels designated, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am German," "I am black," "I am white," and . . . no. You have to feel yourself. Not feeling; practically training that, "I am spirit soul. I am eternal part and parcel of the Supreme Lord." When you come to this position, this is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, freed from all designation.

These are, the bodily identification, is designation. Just like you are sitting here, so many boys and girls in different dress. Some is dressed in black coat or some in white coat or red coat. If I ask you what you are, if you say, "I am black coat," or somebody says: "I am white coat," that is not your identification. Similarly, we living entities, we are neither American nor Indian nor African nor Englishman. We are all spirit soul. That is our position. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. This is perfect knowledge. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul." When you come to this understanding, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam, then your position will be different from this material understanding. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54).

Prasannātmā means jubilant. You'll find all our boys and girls, they're always jubilant. Unless they are jubilant, they cannot dance in this way. It is not dancing dogs. They are not dancing dogs. They're feeling jubilant, and therefore they are dancing. This is the position of brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Prasannātmā, unless one is very satisfied, he cannot be jubilant. He should be morose. He cannot dance, he cannot chant. That's a fact.

So this is sign of brahma-bhūtaḥ: without any material designation. Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you study carefully you'll understand everything. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati. How one is jubilant? When one is freed from all anxieties. What are these anxieties? Anxieties mean if I lose something, then I will lament, and if I haven't got anything, something, then I hanker after it.

So far we are concerned, we have no business, we have no profession. We do not know what we shall eat tomorrow, or in the evening. We are in such a position. But we have no anxiety. You can see practically. We have no anxiety that, "What shall I eat in the evening? What shall I eat tomorrow? There is no bank balance. There is no money." No. There is no anxiety. We know certain that as soon as we go, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will send us everything. That is actually a fact. If you study our activities, you'll see practically it is so. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. We have no hankering, no lamentation. Suppose you have got thousand dollars, and somebody takes away. It happens so. Somebody comes, mixes with us and takes away some money. So we are not very much sorry for that. We think: Kṛṣṇa gave us, and Kṛṣṇa has taken away. It doesn't matter. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati.

Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). Equal to all living entities. Our philosophy is not like that, that we give protection to the human being and send the cows to the slaughterhouse. No. That is not our philosophy. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. We think on this subject matter that if a man is killed, as he's put into so difficult position for being killed, the animal also. They also feel. It is nonsense to think that animal has no soul. No. Everyone has got soul. There are 8,400,000 species, or forms of life. Everyone has got soul. Even the ant has got soul or the elephant has got soul, what to speak of other animals. Everyone, even the trees, birds, beasts, plants, everyone has got soul. And in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya

sambhavanti mūrtayaḥ yāḥ

tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma

ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā

(BG 14.4)

The part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, or God, the soul, is there everywhere. Don't think that simply human being has got soul. This is not very good philosophy, that the animals have no soul. They have got soul. You can practically examine. What is the symptom of possessing soul? First of all try to understand. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaṁ tatam (BG 2.17). The presence of soul can be perceived when there is consciousness on the body. This is the proof.

When you pinch my body, I feel pain; when I pinch your body, you feel pain; when I pinch an animal's body, he also feels pain. Even I pinch even the tree's body, he feels pain. It is scientifically proved. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved by machine that when you cut a tree, it feels pain and it is recorded in this statistic machine. So everyone has got the soul. So how you can think . . .? When you take the animal to the slaughterhouse for killing, he cries. Why? Because he's feeling pain. He knows that, "I'm going to be killed." So there is soul.

So soul is there. You don't think that soul is not there. Soul is there. Therefore, a Kṛṣṇa conscious person who has realized God, he is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, he's equal to all living entities. He'll feel pain even for cutting a tree. He'll pain feel . . . he'll feel pain even he traverse over an ant. There is a story that one hunter, he was killing in the forest all kinds of animals, and he was killing them half. So they were suffering too much severe pain. So Nārada Muni was going in that way. He saw that "These animals have been half killed, and they are so much suffering. Who is doing that?"

So he searched out the hunter. He requested, "Sir, you are killing the animals. Why don't you kill them all at a time? Why you are killing half? They are suffering. You'll have to suffer in that way." The hunter did not know that killing animals is sinful and he has to suffer again. So he said: "Sir, I am trained like this by my father. This is my profession. I do not know what is sin. But this is the first time I am hearing from you that killing this animal, especially in this way, is very much sinful."

So because he saw a saintly person, he got his sense. He asked him that, "How I can get rid of this sinful life?" So Nārada Muni suggested that, "I shall give you the way how you can become free from this sinful life." So he made him a disciple and asked him to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and sit down on the bank of the Ganges, and the hunter said: "Sir, where shall I get my food?" Nārada Muni said: "I'll send you, don't bother. I'll send you food." So the village people, when they understood that the hunter has become a saintly person, so everyone used to come and see him. Somebody was bringing some rice, somebody wheat, somebody some sweets, some fruits, some flower. So huge quantity of foodstuff was coming. So in this way, he became a perfect saintly Vaiṣṇava.

Later on, when Nārada Muni came to see him, he was coming to receive the spiritual master, jumping over the road. So when the hunter, now he became Vaiṣṇava, so Nārada Muni and his friend Parvata Muni asked, "Why you are jumping?" He said: "Sir, there are so many ants, so I was trying to save their life." The same hunter who was killing animals one time half-dead and was enjoying is no more interested to kill even an ant. This is called saintly life. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Samaḥ, equal to all living entities. Not that simply protection should be given to the human being.

And the Communist philosophy also, there are so many defects. They also think of equal rights for everyone, but why not for the animals? What right you have got to kill the animals? Similarly, the animal also kill you. So this is not organized society. The organized society should be that there should be first-class men, brāhmaṇa. They would give advice to the second-class men, the administrators. And the administrator class of men, they will see that everyone is following the religious principles. And the third-class men, or the mercantile class of men, they should produce food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). You'll find here, I'll read it.

So, in this way, there must be classification. Not that everyone is one. No, that cannot be. By nature's division . . . just you try to understand from your body. The nature's division is there. Why nature has not made only the head—no leg, no arms? No. They are required. But they should cooperate. It doesn't matter that one is brāhmaṇa, one is kṣatriya, one is śūdra. Just the same example of the body: The head is there, very important department of this body, but the leg is not unimportant. Although the leg is not as important as the head, still leg is also required. There is necessity. You cannot avoid the leg. Similarly, there should be first-class intelligent men, administrative class of men, mercantile class of men and the worker class of men, but they should cooperate.

Just like in this body, the head, the arms, the belly and the legs, they are cooperating for the proper upkeep of the bodily health. Similarly, if we actually want the human society should be organized, then the intelligent class of men, the administrative class of men, the mercantile class of men and the worker class of men, they should cooperate for understanding Kṛṣṇa, or God. Then there will be harmony in the human society. Without God consciousness, everyone will think, "I am very important; others are not important. I should be given only protection, not others." No. As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, as soon as you become brahma-bhūtaḥ, then you'll see samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Samaḥ. Samaḥ means equality to all kinds of living entities, not only human being. How many human beings are there out of 8,400,000 species of life? A few only. Only 400,000 species. This information we get from the śāstras, Vedic literature. Bhagavad-gītā is the summary of all Vedic literature.

Therefore, it is advised here that how the first-class men should be trained up, how the second-class men should be trained up, how the third-class men should be trained up and how the fourth-class men should be trained up. Not that everyone should become first class. Even everyone is not first class . . . because there is cooperation, there is no distinction between first class and third class or fourth class. The same example: Just like if there is some disease on my leg, it does not mean that I shall neglect, I shall take care of the head only. No. I spend more money to cure the disease of the leg. May not be I don't spend any money for the head. So no part of society is unimportant, provided there is cooperation. But there must be division, first class, second class, third class, fourth class. There must be division. Without division . . . as there is division anywhere you go, in office, there are the head department, the directors; they are working in a different atmosphere. (break)

There must be division. There is already division; you cannot avoid it. Because the material nature is working in three modes of material nature. So anyone who is in the modes of goodness, he's not equal to the person who is in the modes of ignorance. That is not possible. There is difference, but they should be trained up in such a way that they can cooperate to understand this Absolute Truth. That is first-class society. That is real perfect human society. So here it is said:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

If you want to train the first-class men, then they should be qualified like this. Śamaḥ, śamaḥ means controlling the senses. Controlling the senses, śamaḥ. Damaḥ, controlling the mind. These are very disturbing elements. Our senses are very disturbing elements. My eye is dictating, "Please take me to see that naked dance." Yes. "Yes, come on. I'm going." So the eyes are dictating some way, the tongue is dictating some way, the ear is dictating some way. Therefore one should be trained up not to be dictated by the senses, but he must be master of the senses. That is called śamaḥ.

And damaḥ, mind is dictating something. You should not be carried away by the dictation of the mind, but mind should be carried by your dictation. That is called damaḥ. These are the qualities of the first-class man. Not that because I have got some degrees and I'm dictated by my mind and senses. He is not first-class man. He's not first-class. Because he's the servant of the senses. How he can be first-class man? One must be the master of the senses. Then he is first-class man.

In our . . . there is one Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he was a great politician. Perhaps those who have gone to India, New Delhi, there is a Chanakyapuri, where all the ambassadors and foreign diplomats are situated. That Cāṇakya Muni, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, he was a great learned brahmin and politician. He gave his instruction. So he gives the formula, "Who is a learned scholar." Who is a learned scholar, he has given three formulas. What is that?

mātṛvat para-dāreṣu

para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat

ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu

yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ

(Cāṇakya Paṇḍita)

Who is a learned man. He said: "A person who can see all the women of the world, except his wife, as mother." Mātṛvat-para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. If one has learned this art how to see others' wife as mother, and para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, and others' riches, possessions, as garbage in the street. Just like you don't touch the garbage, similarly, others' property, others' riches, one does not touch or even see to it. And he thinks all woman as mothers except his own wife. And ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu, and treating everyone equally, as he wants to be treated himself. If by pinching your body or giving pain to your body, if you feel pain, you should not give such pain to any living entity. If one has learned these three things, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu, then he is learned scholar.

It is not that one has got this degree from this university, then he has got. That degree will not help us. Unless one is God consciousness, he cannot have any good qualification. That is the Vedic injunction. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). As I have given the example of the hunter: before becoming God conscious, he was a cruel hunter, and after being God conscious, he was not ready to kill even an ant. This is the result. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām. Then he's entered in the devotional service of the Lord. Not abruptly one can become devotee. The symptoms must be there, the qualities must be there. Suppose if somebody comes and says, "I am very rich man." So I shall have to see his symptoms, whether he has got a nice car, nice dress, or . . . there are so many symptoms. Similarly, simply by speaking that, "I am God conscious" will not do. These are the symptoms:

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā

na śocati na kāṅkṣati

samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu

mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām

(BG 18.54)

Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). The God can be realized only by the devotees who have got all these good qualities. These good qualities already mentioned, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is God consciousness. God consciousness does not mean that I shall be protected, I shall be happy, and let others be unhappy; let them go to hell, never mind. No. That is not God consciousness. Therefore, in order to become perfectly God conscious, the first-class men must be there in the society. And that first-class man is described here, śamo damas tapaḥ: he is able to control the mind, he is able to control the senses; tapaḥ, he has undergone austerities, tapaḥ. Śaucam, he is always clean, outside and inside; śaucaṁ kṣāntiḥ, always peaceful; ārjavam, simplicity; and jñānam, full of knowledge; vijñānam, practical application of knowledge in life; jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam, and firmly convinced about the existence of the Supreme Lord. These are the qualification of the first-class men. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. These are the qualities.

So there should be educational department to create first-class men by all these qualities: how to become controller of the mind, how to become controller of the senses, how to become cleansed, bāhyābhyantaram, inside clean and outside clean, śaucam; titikṣā, how to become tolerant, tolerant. One should be not agitated by a single cause. Tolerant, and similarly, simplicity simply . . . he should be so simple. It is said simplicity: even the enemy inquires from him some secret thing, he'll say, "Yes, it is like this." Simplicity.

And jñānam, full knowledge. Full knowledge: what is this world, what I am, what is my relation with this world, what is God, what is my relation with God. Everything full knowledge. And vijñānam. Vijñānam means completely application of the knowledge of life. And āstikyam, āstikyam means full faith in transcendental literature, that is called also āstikyam, and full faith in the existence of the Supreme Lord. Āstik . . . these are the brahminical qualification. So those who are claiming to become first class, learned men in the society, they must have all these qualification. This is Bhagavad-gītā's teaching.

The second-class man, what is that?

śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtir dākṣyaṁ

yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam

dānam īśvara-bhāvaś ca

kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.43)

Administrator class. Kṣatriya, kṣatriya means those who are in the governmental power. They should be śauryam, very powerful, and very influential. Śauryaṁ tejaḥ. Nowadays, without seeing these qualification, a third-class, fourth-class man is voted, and therefore we find out that Mr. Nixon, he's attacked now so many . . . because he has no kṣatriya qualification. These are the kṣatriya qualification, administrator. Śaucam . . . śauryaṁ tejo dhṛtiḥ. He must be determined; dākṣyam, he must very expert; yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam, and he should not flee away from fighting.

When there is . . . nowadays, the politicians and diplomats, they sit down very safely in their room, and poor people, they are, by force, sent to fight. This is not kṣatriya; this is not administration. The kṣatriya is, he must come forward first of all. Then others will follow. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. And dānam, he must be very charitable. That is another qualification of the administrator. Īśvara-bhāvaś ca, and the governing spirit. These are the kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. Similarly, this is second class.

The third class means kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Third class means mercantile traders. They should produce food, enough kṛṣi, agricultural products, and go-rakṣya. Now we see instead of go-rakṣya . . . go-rakṣya means protection to the cows. Instead of protection to the cows, they are killing the cows. How you can have perfect society? Cows must be protected. It is so important animal. It is giving you the nectarean food, milk, and from milk you can save your children, you can save your diseased person. And how it is that you take the cow's milk and send it for slaughterhouse?

Oh, this is not . . . not at all human civilization. Here it is said go-rakṣya. You should give all protection to this important animal. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you should protect the pigs and hogs or other animals. He especially meant the cows, because cow is very important animal to the human society. If there are meat-eaters, they can kill other animals, but they should not kill the cow. This is, if you want actually perfect society. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). And these persons, they let them produce enough food grains, and where there is no . . . there is scarcity of food grains, let them supply there. That is called trade. Vāṇijyam. Vāṇijyam.

But at the present moment, there are so many countries, they can produce profuse quantity of food grain. Sometimes they do it and throw it in the ocean for economic, what is called, balance. This is not good. Everyone should produce enough quantity of food grains, and if there is shortage, they should send there. Send there. In this way, the whole world should cooperate. There is United Nation, but what they are doing? Let them study Bhagavad-gītā how to make United Nation. That will be perfect. Not these short-sighted men with politics and diplomacy within the heart, they can bring all the nations united. That is not possible. Let them discuss Bhagavad-gītā. Let them discuss how perfect society can be established. Then there will be peace. And vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam.

And paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And those who are not intelligent, to be trained up as a brahmin or a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, the fourth-class men, let them work these three other classes. Let them work. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdrasyāpi svabhāva-jam. In this way the human society should be divided into four divisions, they should cooperate, and they should be trained up. Not a single man should remain unemployed. He must be engaged in some employment as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a śūdra or as a vaiśya. Otherwise, idle brain will be devil's workshop. Therefore, in spite of so much educational propaganda in the Western countries, the young men are coming to become hippies. Because there is no proper training. Here is the hint, Bhagavad-gītā gives you. You train the students in that way, then there will be perfect society.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

(break)

Haṁsadūta: Point is that everyone strives to become first-class men then ultimately everyone will be first-class and sitting around no one will produce food and what will happen?

Prabhupāda: Why everyone should be first-class men? That I have already explained, the third class men is . . . some fourth class men, is also required.

Guest: But sir you also.

Prabhupāda: But there should be cooperation.

Guest: Sir . . . (indistinct) . . . in your society by . . . (indistinct) . . . of Kṛṣṇa consciousness then there will be no class distinction.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Guest: Now if you are willing to say that there is no class distinction.

Prabhupāda: What do you mean that? We are not working? Do you mean to say that we are not working?

Guest: I'm not saying that sir, that's what you said.

Prabhupāda: Ah, no, our in Kṛṣṇa consciousness society because it is transcendental platform that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate. (BG 14.26)

Guest: Yes but you are very . . . (indistinct) . . . of the mantra sitting by the riverside waiting for food to come to him . . . (indistinct) . . . you depend on . . . (indistinct) . . . you depend on society . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We are talking . . .

Guest: (indistinct) . . . Paris city apartment.

Prabhupāda: So long you are not in the spiritual platform there should be such division. First class, second class, third class, fourth class but when you come to the spiritual platform everyone being on the same platform they can work but there is no such distinction. As brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Guest: So what does a brāhmaṇa do?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Everyone is engaged actually everyone is brāhmaṇa because everyone is engaged in this devotional service of the Lord, that is their business.

Guest: But the brāhmaṇa does not produce wheat.

Prabhupāda: Why not? For Kṛṣṇa we can do everything.

Guest: But you just said.

Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya, kṣatriya, Arjuna was fighting but at the same time he was a devotee. A devotee although acting as kṣatriya, or brāhmaṇa or śūdra he is above this platform.

Guest: But should we not sir . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So the devotees can do anything for Kṛṣṇa it doesn't matter if it is a śūdra's work or brāhmaṇa's work.

Guest: But why we should have this distinction? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Haṁsadūta: Why we should have . . . then why are we having this distinction? This . . .

Prabhupāda: These things are so long you are not devotee you must have these distinction. There is already the distinction.

Guest: But why? . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Why. Because there is, there is third class fourth class men first-class men there is. How you can say, why?

Guest: Because people must survive and . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Do you think that everyone is first class men? Do you think?

Guest: No but I'm just saying that . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore a first-class man should be like this, a second class man should be like this. There is already first-class second-class third class fourth class.

Guest: You never give people time to speak sir, you claim to be a first class man, yes?

Prabhupāda: I am the fifth class man, I don't claim anything.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Because I am servant of everyone. I am servant of the fourth class man also.

Guest: Now you are brāhmaṇa a first class man.

Prabhupāda: Now you may say first-class man but I think I am the fifth class man.

Guest: Your . . . (indistinct) . . . first-class man . . . (indistinct) . . . living in London. You are now speaking . . .

Prabhupāda: What is your point, I cannot understand?

(aside) what's his point?

Haṁsadūta: What's your point?

Prabhupāda: What is your point?

Haṁsadūta: You have to come to the point before we can answer your question.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Formulate your question then you will get an answer.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: So you want to sit then?

Guest: No, I just want to know.

Haṁsadūta: Now don't be envious you can sit there and give . . . (indistinct)

Guest: I'm not sitting I want a request . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Then what is your question?

Guest: The question is this, the Vaiṣṇava's want to kill . . . (indistinct)

(applause)

Guest: (indistinct) . . . program . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Haṁsadūta: His point is that the flowers have been killed to decorate the vyāsāsana.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Haṁsadūta: So you compare this to animal killing as the same thing?

Guest: Well yeah.

Haṁsadūta: You think that plucking a flower is the same thing as killing a cow in the slaughter house?

Guest: But you said so.

Haṁsadūta: So you're not taking any meat, you don't take any fish, eggs.

Guest: I do. I do.

Haṁsadūta: Okay, then what is your point?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: You are yourself not practising.

Guest: Yes.

Haṁsadūta: Then what do you call them?

Guest: What I'm saying, he is, he is being treated like . . . (indistinct) . . . Buddhist yet practices.

Haṁsadūta: Offering flowers. Kṛṣṇa says: "You offer me with love, a little fruit, a flower and water I will accept it." That's the difference between killing animals and a flower. Kṛṣṇa accepts the fruit, flower a little water but he doesn't accept any cow slaughter house killing.

Guest: How you can make this distinction?

Haṁsadūta: That is Kṛṣṇa making the distinction.

Prabhupāda: We are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness as Kṛṣṇa making distinction we are making that. We are not manufacturing our own idea, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Guest: Yes you . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You are thinking that the killing . . . or the . . . this is not killing.

Guest: What is it?

Prabhupāda: But whatever. According to you it is killing, do you think this killing this flower and killing you is the same thing?

Guest: It is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If I kill you, if somebody kills you that killing and this killing is the same?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The same? You think like that?

Guest: In your opinion . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, we don't use such opinion.

Guest: You did.

Prabhupāda: No, then you have misunderstood, you have misunderstood.

Guest: You said . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, our, our preaching process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam toyam, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati, anyone who gives me a little flower, a little fruit, a little water, like that I accept that. So we offer this flower to Kṛṣṇa, we don't use independently. We take the remnants of foodstuff or anything which is used by Kṛṣṇa that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

We do not take anything directly, that is our principle, that is our philosophy. So if Kṛṣṇa says that He can accept meat, then we can accept also meat but He does not say that. He says: patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalam toyam, yo me bhaktyā prayacchati. So we have to follow our principle as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We cannot take any dictation from others. That is not possible.

Haṁsadūta: Any other question?

Guest (2): Yeah, what do you think of the democracy?

Prabhupāda: Well, democracy means anyone gives vote to anyone, so the man who takes the vote he may not be trained up, so there is danger in democracy. Just like in America it is now failed. You know such an exalted person president Nixon he is now charged with so many faults. You know that. So this is the defect of democracy, by simply votes you may elect somebody then again you will charge him with so many faults. Therefore the administrator class of men must be trained up, satyam, śaucam, titikṣā, like that. If he is not trained up, simply by votes if one is exalted in a post then again the reaction will be that Nixon was voted again he is charged with so many faults, that is the defect of democracy.

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . train.

Prabhupāda: Eh? The University will train, what for this Educational Department, this should be the process of training. The first class men should be trained like this, second class men should be trained like this, third class men should be trained like this.

Guest (2): By whom?

Haṁsadūta: By whom?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Haṁsadūta: Who shall do the training? Who shall.

Prabhupāda: But here the direction is in the Bhagavad-gītā, take the direction and educational directors may take help and do that.

Guest (2): Can I . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: No the educational directors should take the instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā and apply them to themselves and to the students.

Prabhupāda: The direction is already there you can take and you can educate.

Guest (2): What was . . . (indistinct)

Guest (3): But anybody can be trained . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes anyone can be trained up first thing is training must be there. Training must be there.

Guest: What do you think . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Without training how you can be educated? That is wanted.

Guest: Can I ask, what makes you think that Kṛṣṇa is the Lord?

Haṁsadūta: His question is, what makes us think that Kṛṣṇa is God?

Prabhupāda: Yes if you know what is God then you will accept God. If you know these are the qualification of God then you will accept God. Do you know what is the qualification of God?

Guest: The qualification of God.

Prabhupāda: You know?

Guest: (indistinct) . . . it is beyond me.

Prabhupāda: If you know just like we find out a physician if I know what is the qualification of physician then I can understand he is the right physician.

Guest: Without . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Similarly if you know what is the qualification of God then you understand Kṛṣṇa is God. It is not difficult, everything is, if you know what is gold then you can understand what is gold. If you do not know then you may accept iron as gold.

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . excuse me. Can you?

Haṁsadūta: If, the point is, if you know what is the qualification of God then you will be able to understand who is God or in other terms if you know what is gold then you will know. If you know the qualifications then you will know but if you don't know then you may accept iron as gold. So similarly we understand Kṛṣṇa according to the qualification, God is understood according to the symptom or qualification.

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . logic.

Haṁsadūta: Excuse me?

Guest: Is it pure logic on His behalf?

Devotee: Is it pure logic?

Guest (2): . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Oh, is it logic, is it.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Haṁsadūta: Is it logic. That you understand God by logic? What is that.

Prabhupāda: So how do you understand? Let me know? How do you understand God?

Guest: I agree, I don't.

Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of God, you don't understand God, why you are talking of God?

Guest: But you . . . (indistinct) . . . I'm asking you.

Prabhupāda: If you understand God, then you talk.

Guest: Right then . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If you say that I do not understand God then how can you talk of God?

Guest: No, I ask you how you understand God? Did you understand your logic . . . (indistinct) . . . through logic. Can you just answer that one question? . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: The question is, how do we understand God, through logic or how?

Prabhupāda: What is your method to understand God?

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (Chuckles) answer him.

Guest: (indistinct) . . . you say . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: So foolish.

Guest (2): (indistinct) . . . then said something else.

Haṁsadūta: You have to understand God from the authorised scripture.

Guest: Did he say that?

Haṁsadūta: Or by his own.

Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Haṁsadūta: Explanation's. God is himself explaining himself in Bhagavad-gītā, in this way you have to understand.

Guest: No use. I'm not talking to you . . . (indistinct) . . . I want to speak, he is not speaking to them. I only want to speak to him not to . . . (indistinct) . . . so please give me some answers.

Haṁsadūta: . . . (indistinct)

Guest: You believe in logic, you said power, what is power? That's illogical there is no such thing.

Prabhupāda: Do you want to understand without logic? You want to understand God without logic?

Guest: I don't believe in logic to understand God but . . .

Prabhupāda: Then if you don't believe then how can I make you understand? If you don't accept logic, you don't accept authority then how can I make you understand?

Guest: I didn't say that I didn't accept logic. logic plays a role . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Now you tell me this is the process of understanding God, first of all you tell me what is your process of understanding God?

Guest: That's what I'm asking you?

Prabhupāda: Then you're asking me, then you learn from me what I say.

Guest: Yes please, I'm listening.

Prabhupāda: Yes, then I say Kṛṣṇa is God, take it.

Audience: (laughter) (claps).

Prabhupāda: All right have chanting.

Devotee: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)