760622 - Conversation B - New Vrindaban, USA
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
(Garden Conversation)
Devotee (1): . . . shortage of brain, then we have to make some scientific solution, that to say God is acting, that is not acting, that is not practical. We must make some solution, like irrigation or . . .
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: God helps those who help themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring slogans now. Now answer this question.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, people are falsely thinking themselves to be independent of God.
Prabhupāda: No, what is his question, try to understand first of all. The question is intelligent.
Hari-śauri: Actually, it's not a fact that by relying on science one can solve one's problems when you are dealing with . . .
Prabhupāda: No, what they have solved? What they have solved first of all.
Hari-śauri: They haven't solved anything.
Prabhupāda: Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's just like, say here's a field, and it's full of woods, so a farmer comes and he cuts down the trees and then he plants grain, and then it comes up as wheat. So he'll say, "Well, God did not do it; I did it." So his proposal is that under such circumstances, how is the idea of God practical?
Prabhupāda: So then practical is if God would not have given you this land, then where is scheme of tilling it? Can you till in the sky, in the air? So who has given you the land? Hmm? You are very practical, but where you get the . . .? Can you manufacture this land? Can you? Then God comes, immediately. Where you get this water? Can you manufacture water? Where you get this air? Can you manufacture? Where you get this fire? Everything, there is God.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then he may say, "But what is the use, because someone who is atheist and someone who is God conscious, sometimes it is found that the atheist . . ."
Prabhupāda: The atheist will suffer. Just like anyone who is outlaw, does not believe in the government's law, he'll suffer. If somebody says, "I don't care for government laws," then he'll suffer. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). He's a rascal. He may say so, like madman, that "I don't care for government and government laws," but naturally he'll be punished. He'll be put into jail and suffer. That he cannot check. He may, with empty words, he can say, "I don't care for government," but does it mean that he can escape the government laws? That is not possible. Government will see that "Here is a lunatic rascal. Put him into the jail," that's all. Is it not? Is it not practical?
Devotee (1): He can say also that, "What is the difference? You are also . . . you have to farm . . ."
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, you and me, but we are talking of government laws. Whether you'll be punished, I'll be punished, that is different thing. Anyone will be punished. There is no question "I" and "you." It is not that I am very favorite and you are not favorite. Anyone who will violate the government's laws will be punished. Who can deny it? It is not the question of "I" and "you." Anyone. How you can become independent of the laws? That is not possible. You have to accept God.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Christians say that God is very merciful.
Prabhupāda: That mercy depends on Him. You cannot dictate Him. If I am merciful, that will depend on me, whether I can show you mercy or I can condemn you. That is . . . depends on me. Simply on the basis of "God is merciful," I can do all unlawful things, this is not practical proposal. Merciful means it depends on me. Whether I shall show mercy or I shall be very strong and strict, that is my will, freedom. I may show you mercy; I may not show. You cannot force me, that "You must become merciful." That is not mercy. God is really merciful. Otherwise, how He's supplying this . . . in the morning if a fog, so God mercifully has asked sun, "Now give them some sunlight." So we are enjoying. He is merciful. When there is sunshine you see the sinful man and the pious man, both enjoy. That is His mercy. When He bestows His mercy, it is for all of them, either you are sinner or you are pious. That is God's mercy. Just like the cloud, when it pours water, it does not make any discrimination. On the sea there is also rainfall; on the rocks also there is rainfall, where there is no necessity of rain. Suppose there is . . . (indistinct) . . . rainfall on rocks. What is the use? There is no use. It is simply waste. So God also wastes: "All right, you take. You don't require; you also take." In the ocean there is no need of water, but when . . . the cloud pours water on the ocean also. Only on the land we can utilize, but God is so merciful, exactly like the raincloud, He is so merciful, where there is no necessity they are also getting rain, "Take rain." That is merciful. Without any discrimination, whether you want or not want, "Take it." That is mercy. You can show your mercy when there is scarcity water—you can bring some tanks of water from other places and put here—but how long you'll do it? But when the God is merciful, He'll pour rain so in large quantity that everyone will benefit. That is God's greatness. You'll have to spend so much money, labor, to bring a few buckets of water from other place. Beyond that, you cannot do anything. But God is so powerful, so great, that within a twinkling of . . . within a few minutes only, immediately He can overcast with cloud and overflood the whole tract of land. That is God's greatness. You have to understand God's greatness in that way.
If the sinful . . . number of sinful men are great, God immediately starts one war, and within few years, all finished. Russia finished, America finished, everyone. That is greatness of God. In this way try to understand how God is great in every activity. In mercy He's great, in cruelty He's great. If He wants to show cruelty, He's the greatest cruel. No discrimination; all finished. Never mind women, children or cats, dogs—all finished. That is cruelty, greatness of cruelty. Similarly greatness of mercy. So that is greatness. So you study, in God, the greatness, how great He is. At night you have so many lights for illuminate your city, home, and so many electric powerhouse going on, and God is so great that one sun—immediately, all light. There is no need of powerhouse, there is no need of matches, there is no need of this light, that light. Take sunlight. That is His greatness. And within a second. When night is going on, we have seen.
Hari-śauri: On the airplane.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately sun comes out, all darkness gone. That is His greatness. Do that like that. Then you compete with God. Can you do it? Then how can you avoid God? (laughs). Rascals only—mūḍha, narādhama. They cannot appreciate the greatness of God. Mūḍha. They're asses. Anyone who does not appreciate the greatness of God, they're asses, mūḍha. As good as the ass. And lowest of the mankind, narādhama. And their so-called scientific knowledge, useless. If by so-called scientific knowledge they want to defy God, then they are mūḍha, narādhama, useless.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say a country takes full advantage of this slogan, "In God We Trust."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say a country takes full advantage of this slogan.
Prabhupāda: That is my question. Where is that full advantage? They are remaining in the darkness. Why do you trust, first of all? Why do you trust? So many questions there are. Why you are prepared to trust in God? If I ask, you must answer. If you cannot answer, then you are ass. It is good, even without knowing; but when the slogan comes from the government side, there must be full knowledge. Otherwise, the government is as good as common man. The government should be full of intelligent men. Why vote is there? You select an intelligent man. Otherwise, anyone can go. Cats and dogs, they also can go. Why the voting system? That you select some intelligent man. So if you cannot answer your slogan, then you are not intelligent; you are unfit.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They've made the platform that the man himself can solve all the problems.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you trust in God? Don't trust in God, like the Communists say: "We don't trust in God. We shall do it ourselves."
Kulādri: But the forefathers who made up our slogan "In God We Trust," they were very unintelligent, they were very backwards.
Prabhupāda: But you are intelligent. Why you are putting the forefather's words? You avoid it. That means you are cheating people. You do not believe in, but you still write it. That means cheating. Why do you write such things in which you do not believe? That means cheating. Hmm? What do you think? If you write something which you do not believe in, are you not cheating? That means cheating. You take word, you are giving a piece of paper, and it is written there, "one thousand dollars." That means you are cheating, in the name of God, he will accept you, that's all. If you say, "No, I don't want paper. Give me gold dollar," then you are finished. (laughter) Your currency will be finished. Immediately there will be revolution, that "The government is cheating us." Actually it is cheating. What is the proof, value, of this paper, little paper? Simply "I promise to pay, governor and this . . ." But it is on trust only: "Yes, government will pay me." They'll never pay, but so long the government goes on, it will go on, that's all; cheating will go on. And as soon government fails, you throw in the street, nobody will care for it. It has been practically proved in the last war, in Germany. There was scarcity of food, and those who had bunch of currency notes, they went for one piece of bread, so many thousand marks, "Give me." Nobody supplied. So the paper has no value, but if we believe, it has value. That's all. Otherwise what is the meaning of this paper, one thousand dollars? So it is a kind of cheating. "We trust in God; we are very good men. You trust on me."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can this practically be applied, though, to American society, this idea of trusting God? How would things change?
Prabhupāda: By this Kṛṣṇa conscious movement's propaganda. That is not for America—for everyone.
Kīrtanānanda: How can you trust God if you don't know anything about Him? First you have to know something about God before you can trust Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is sense. If you do not know about somebody and you trust him, what is this? Yes.
(pause)
Rakṣaṇa: Through the distribution of your books, through the . . .
Prabhupāda: That is distribution of knowledge. Our distribution of books means distribution of knowledge to these rascals, lowest of the mankind, bewildered. This is the distribution of knowledge. Who was talking about that there is secretly, there is, our books are being read?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was in East Germany.
Hari-śauri: Harikeśa.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That was in East Germany. They have lists, and they pass Prabhupāda's books around. One person has it for one night or three nights, like this, and it keeps going around. Because they are very much in want of this. They can't get enough.
Prabhupāda: Just see how forcefully they are being kept into ignorance, and we want to give knowledge, they don't . . . won't allow. This is government. So anyway, it is good news that our books are being read in that way. That means people are very eager. But they are being suppressed by the so-called government. What is the wrong there, that they cannot read these books publicly, because there is God? What is the wrong? When I was in Moscow airport, as soon as they found Bhagavad-gītā, they called police, the Customs checking. (laughter) The foolish man was kind enough, he said, "Not serious offense. Don't send him in the concentrative camp." They can do. In Russia, even if you are foreigner, they can immediately send you to the concen . . . without any knowledge. They don't care for your embassy or your . . . such a rascal state, there is no civilized method. They send their own men, such an important man like that Kruschev. He was sent into oblivion; nobody knows where he is. Just see. Such a rascal government. Very difficult to deal with. People are . . . simply under terrorism the government is going on. In that sense your American government is so nice. Everyone has got the liberty. What is that nonsense government—terrorism.
Kulādri: But even in our government the President Kennedy was killed, and his brother was killed.
Prabhupāda: That . . . in politics, that is going on. Our Bhagavad-gītā begins on the killing ground, Battle of Kurukṣetra. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre (BG 1.1). Kurukṣetra was a battlefield, but it is still dharma-kṣetre. Why don't you see that? Now the first word is dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting. So why they have gone to the dharma-kṣetre for fighting? So killing, fighting, is not always irreligious. It is religious. Otherwise, why should go to dharma-kṣetre?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Someone may say, though, "How the fighting is religious? After all, it is a family feud."
Prabhupāda: That is your ignorance. But the beginning is dharma-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting. Two parties, they, actually, the two parties . . . Pāṇḍava, pāṇḍavas māmakaḥ caiva kim akurvata. Every word is significant. Fighting can be executed even in dharma-kṣetre. That they cannot understand. Gandhi misunderstood. "If it is dharma-kṣetre, how there can be fighting?" He wanted to prove nonviolence artificially. How it is possible? Kṛṣṇa is instigating him to fight, and how can you make it nonviolence? That is artificial. And if you want to explain something artificially, how long you'll do it, it will be failure. So Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolence and reading of Bhagavad-gītā went with him. Nobody is interested in that kind of explanation. And we are explaining Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it is increasing. It is increasing. There is no artificial way.
Devotee (2): What hope is there for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in these countries like Russia and China, where they are so rascal they won't . . .
Prabhupāda: Everyone will be benefited. Simply you have to preach. You have to preach in the same way that where there is no necessity, there also the preaching will go on. You have to become like cloud. Therefore you sing every day, saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam. Ghanāghanatvam means deep cloud. You have to become deep cloud and pour water. This blazing fire will be extinguished. When there is blazing fire in the forest, the small fire brigade or bucketful of water will not help. It requires cloud, ghanāghanatvam, to pour water—finished. You have to do like that. Vande guroḥ sri . . . one who can do this, he is guru.
- saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka
- trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam
How one can become so? Prāptasya kalyāṇa, one who has received mercy of the Supreme Lord, he can do it. A cloud is formed by receiving mercy of the ocean. Cloud is never formed by receiving the mercy of tap water. You can say, "Here is also water." Not that water; the ocean water. What you will gain by receiving the mercy of tap water? (laughs) We have to receive the mercy of the ocean, prāptasya kalyāṇa-guṇārṇavasya. Guṇārṇava. Arṇava means ocean. So it will be possible. If the cloud is there, bona fide, he can pour water, finish all blazing fire. Somebody was asking me question? Yes.
Devotee (3): The so-called intelligent people in this country, like the professors in universities, they sometimes argue that the progressive value of life is to search for knowledge, the quest of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes, here is the ultimate knowledge, what is God. You do not know. You are still professing as professor, as learned scholar, but you do not know what is God. Also you write, "In God We Trust." What is this nonsense? Where is your professorship? You explain God. Suppose I am a layman. I am asking, "Why you have written in the bill? Please let me know what is God." Do you know? Then where is your knowledge? Hmm?
Devotee (3): But they say they are looking for it.
Prabhupāda: That means you are not in knowledge, and still you are a professor. You become a student like me. Why you are occupying the post of a professor? That means you are cheating. You are calling yourself as professor, the teacher, and you do not know? Give up this post; come to my position.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Immediately revolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Talk like sensible man. Don't cheat others, that you have no knowledge and still you say: "I am professor." Why you are cheating people?
Kīrtanānanda: They say that real knowledge is to know that there is no such thing as absolute knowledge but simply this process of searching for knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No. That is ignorance. As knowledge you are receiving . . . just like I've come to you, I'm a layman, I've come to you for knowledge. Unfortunately, you have not received knowledge from that source. Therefore you are useless. I cannot have knowledge from you. Knowledge means to take it from higher personality. That is knowledge. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Knowledge means you have to receive it from a superior person. Otherwise, there is no knowledge.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So, for example, if one is learning how to count or how to read . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has to learn it from the teacher. "Two plus two equal to four." One, two, three, four, like that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But actually one can understand the Absolute Truth without such knowledge.
Prabhupāda: There is no such man. It is a nonsense, another non . . .
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Without being able to count?
Prabhupāda: Nobody can count unless he learns it from the teacher.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, but . . .
Prabhupāda: So therefore knowledge, you have to go to a proficient man or person, that is knowledge. Why do you go to a school and college? Be in knowledge at home. If you want to steal even, you have to learn it from a professional thief, how to cheat, how to steal. That is also another kind of knowledge. You cannot steal unless you become expert by learning how to steal from an expert thief. So knowledge means you have to receive it from higher authority. That is knowledge.
Kulādri: What if one has material desire? How does he gain the desire for spiritual knowledge?
Prabhupāda: That means you are cats and dogs. The dog has no inquisitiveness. Therefore you are no better than the dog. The dog never comes to a spiritual master, "Give me some knowledge." Therefore you are as good as the dog. That is your qualification.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So all different aspects of material knowledge . . .
Prabhupāda: You have to learn from a superior person.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But now there is distinction between two types of knowledge. If knowledge means understanding . . .
Prabhupāda: No, no. Any knowledge, if you want to get it, you must receive it from a superior person. That is the law. That I already explained. If you want to steal, if you want to become a thief, you have to learn it from an expert thief. So any knowledge. Knowledge means you have to learn it from superior person. And what to speak of the knowledge of God? That is the ultimate knowledge. Yesterday we were speaking that Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja learned how to make samosās. Now that knowledge is distributed. So every knowledge, you have to learn it from an expert. That is called guru. Guru means expert, heavy—whose knowledge is heavier than your scanty knowledge. You have to learn in this way. Guru means heavy. Therefore Vedic injunction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You must. Abhigacchet, this word is used when the sense is "must." Not optional, that I may go or I may not go. No, you must. This is Vedic injunction.
Devotee (2): We can see practically, everyone understands that if they want to be a chemist, they study under another chemist, or a doctor goes to study from some doctor. Why they don't approach a spiritual master for religious knowledge? Why do they think they can do it by themselves?
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness.
Kīrtanānanda: That idea has been encouraged by rascals.
Prabhupāda: Just like if you want a son, you must have a wife. If one says, "No, without wife, I'll get a son," this is nonsense. Is it possible?
Kulādri: But Śrīla Prabhupāda, without any desire we have been given the heaviest guru. How is that possible?
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Without any desire?
Kulādri: Without our knowing about Kṛṣṇa, having any desire to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, still we have been given the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: I don't follow.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's saying that by Kṛṣṇa's mercy we're here, we've taken.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. No. Anyone who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is the duty to distribute it. It is his duty. You may . . . when I came here, I never came here because American boys or people wanted me. They did not feel any need of my presence. But I came here, because it is my duty. My Guru Mahārāja ordered me. So one may think there is need or no need—it is the duty of Kṛṣṇa conscious persons to spread it. Just like the example I have already given. The cloud . . . the mountain does not want rain, the sea does not want, but the cloud throws water everywhere.
Devotee (3): If no one was thinking that they needed your presence, then how is it some have come and some have not come? What is the difference?
Prabhupāda: Difference is it is Kṛṣṇa's desire. He wants that "Don't remain like cats and dogs. Be intelligent and come back to Me." Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So it is the duty of a devotee of Kṛṣṇa to spread this knowledge so that they may take to Kṛṣṇa. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand, but those who are two-legged cats and dogs, (laughs) they can understand. That is the advantage, because they have got two legs. And so long they had four legs, (laughing) they could not understand. So here is a chance, two-legged, so give them some opportunity. That's all.
(long pause)
Prabhupāda: You grow bitter melon also here?
Kīrtanānanda: We tried to this spring to grow it, but we can't get the seed to sprout. Is there some way . . .
Prabhupāda: You can get it from Māyāpur.
Kīrtanānanda: We got seed, but it won't sprout.
Prabhupāda: Oh, due to the climate.
Kīrtanānanda: We don't know. It is a very hard seed.
Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, perhaps the material scientists could help us make the seed sprout.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Devotee (4): I was thinking earlier how a farmer can put the seed in the ground, but he cannot actually make the seed grow if it is not the will of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The situation is not favorable. That is the proof that everything is a living entity. If you put the seed . . . the seed is not the tree, but when you put the seed on the ground, if the situation is favorable, the particular living entity who has to take the form of that tree, he comes, and then it grows. That is the proof. Just like sex. It is not the secretion of the man and the woman. It creates a situation so that the soul may come and live there, and then there is pregnancy. It is not the matter. This is the proof.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Does that mean to some extent that the soul is dependent on a material condition?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi (BG 13.22). Find out this verse, puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi.
Hari-śauri: Just like when the body is no good, the soul has to leave.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the proof there is soul.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa:
- puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
- bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
- kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo-sya
- sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
- (BG 13.22)
"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Purport: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter . . ."
Prabhupāda: This is transmigration. As soon as the situation . . . he is to accept a dog's body. Now a dog is having sex, and the mixture of the two secretions creates a favorable situation, and the living entity is there, and he gets a dog's body. This is the truth. He is destined to get a dog's body. So he's taking the opportunity that "Here is a suitable . . ." Nature is bringing him. If here it is refused, then he'll go to another place. Therefore contraceptive method is sinful, going against the law of . . . the situation is created for getting the body by another living entity, but he is transgressing. Then he'll be punished. So many subtle things are there. What do they know? Read it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress."
Prabhupāda: This is transmigrating. He's put into this circumstances, so he gets this body. (break) . . . in our Society, he's living in a room, but if he has got some difficulty, he says . . . then the authority gives him another room, "All right, you go there." This is transmigration. He must get a place according to his capacity, according to his quality. Go on reading.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such . . ."
Prabhupāda: If he wants to remain in this material world, creates a situation and continues his desire, then he has to take. And when he understands that "To live in this material condition is very troublesome. Why shall I live here?" then he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and he goes back to home, back to . . . and so long he desires, "No, why not? If I remain in this situation, I'll be happy," then he'll have to get a body. Nature will give him all chances: "Get this body." If one is very pleased to take raw flesh, "All right, why artificially? Take this body, tiger." That's all. Nature is . . . God is so kind. Before we were talking of God's mercifulness, so if you are thinking that it is very happy life to eat, without any discrimination, anything, so immediately God orders nature, "You give him body of a pig. He can eat anything, even up to stool. Give him this body." Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This yantra, this vehicle, this body, is given to him: "Yes, now you can eat anything, up to stool." And he is very pleased. He wanted it. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He does not hesitate or feel any inconvenience. God is there, even within the heart of the pig: "My dear pig, you wanted a body like this. You have now got it. Now eat. Here is stool, you eat." And he enjoys.
So the living entity in this material world, he wanted to enjoy: "I am the monarch of all I survey." So God gives him all facility: "Whatever you want, you do." Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad yoni-janmasu. He wanted it; therefore he gets different types of body. That is transmigration. But still He comes and teaches, "Rascal, why you are suffering in this way? Give up this plan; surrender to Me immediately." But he is making plan only. Just like in your country, there is everything opulent. The hippies are making plan, "We shall be happy in this way." What can be done? Everyone has got little independence. Let him do. So, so long we shall make plan to enjoy this material world, God will give us all facility, "All right, enjoy." Not enjoy—suffer. But because He is compassionate, kind, merciful, that is His . . . still He comes and begs, "You rascal, why you are making plan? Give up this. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). Then you'll be happy." So if anyone is intelligent, he takes God's direct instruction and he becomes happy. Otherwise, go on making plan. He'll give you facility. That is God's kindness. (sounds of birds chirping nearby) They are enjoying. The birds of the same feather flock together. They keep together, they fly together. They enjoy. They think it is enjoyment. Go on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Due to his desire to lord it over material nature he is put into such undesirable circumstances."
Prabhupāda: This is not wanted. He is spirit. He has nothing to do with this material world, but he wanted it. Or the real thing is that he wanted to enjoy by becoming the master. He is servant. Sometimes servants desire it, that "Why I become servant? Why not master?" That is natural. But the natural position of it is he is servant. If he remains servant of Kṛṣṇa, then he's happy always. But because he desired to become master, so he cannot become master in the spiritual world, because in the spiritual world the master is one. So he is given the chance, "All right, go to the material world and become a master." But that is a falldown. So he's trying struggle for existence, and everyone is trying to become master. Even one is in this spiritual knowledge that "I am spirit soul," still he's trying to become master. That is Māyāvāda. They have understood that "I am not this body, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, but I am the Supreme Brahman." The same disease is there—master. Therefore they are condemned, arūhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padam tataḥ (SB 10.2.32). Because the mentality to remain master is continuing. Even they are in the Brahman, merge into the Brahman, the mastership mentality is there; therefore he falls down again. Because mastership exhibition can be done in this material world. So many Māyāvādī sannyāsīs, they give up, "This world is false," and they merge, so-called merge, but the mastership mentality is there. But in the void, simply spiritual light, he cannot do any mastership; therefore again falls down in this false world, and he wants to be by becoming a leader of hospital, and school, college, a Christian missionary. And our Vivekananda also imitated that.
So this, this is the material disease. He is actually servant, but he wants to become master. That is the defect. So he has to give up this mentality, mastership, then he'll be making real progress. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170), that "I am not master, I am servant." When he's fixed up on this platform, then he's liberated. Or in other words, when he feels pleasure, transcendental pleasure, remaining the servant, that is liberation. But as soon as he continues the mentality that "I want to be master," then he's in the māyā. That mentality he has to give up. Or he has to understand that "I'm not master; I am servant." That is liberation. What is . . .? Go on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod."
Prabhupāda: This is material desire, to try to become master. This is the root cause of material desire. Go on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Under the influence of material desire the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all circumstances the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the . . ."
Prabhupāda: Even in the stool, the worms in the stool, he's also thinking, "I have got so much stool to eat." This same mastership. "I am the monarch of all I survey. I have got so much stool." And you just take the worm from the stool, put it here: "No, no, no, here is my enjoyment. I shall do it" This mastership mentality is there in Brahmā, and the mastership mentality is there in the worm of the stool. This mentality you have to give up. Then you become liberated. That is liberated. The bondage is that mastership mentality. He's servant, but he's thinking falsely that he's master. Just like your President Nixon. He thought, "Now I have become master of America, I'm president." He forgot that he's servant. As soon as the people wanted, dragged him down. That he forgot, that "I'm servant of the people."
So everyone is servant, but falsely thinking "I'm master." That is material disease. The best thing is that if I have to remain servant, why not become servant of Kṛṣṇa? That's all. That is perfection. That is perfect life. Even by becoming a false master of the whole American country, I was not happy, I am now dragged down as a common man, Mr. Nixon, then what is the use of becoming master? It is all false. Let me become servant of Kṛṣṇa; then it is perfect. Instead of becoming a false master of the American country, let me be a real servant of Kṛṣṇa. That is liberty, liberated. Because any stage of my life, to become master is false. That is not possible. He has to be convinced that he cannot be master. Your constitution is to remain servant. If you prefer to remain servant of a big populace in America . . . but you are servant; don't think you are master. That is sane. And soon as commit mistake as master, immediately he's in trouble. Is it not? Just see. You give up this false notion that "I am master." Then your all welfare is there. We teach that ask a Godbrother, "prabhu." Don't become master, but become servant. Prabhu means "my lord." So everyone, if you address each other "prabhu," that mastership mentality will be less, if you remember that "I am not master. I am servant." Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to . . ."
Prabhupāda: Just like to eat anything and everything. It is different association. You go to the restaurant, you eat the intestine of pig. I've seen it. Is that anything eatable? But you have learned it on account of association. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). And if he remains with this Kṛṣṇa conscious, he eats kachorīs, samosā, prepared by Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. (laughter) It is due to association. By bad association he'll have to eat up to the stool. Go on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception."
Prabhupāda: That is material desire, how to become master. From different types, he's trying to become master. Just like in the morning the dogs are barking. He's also thinking master: "Why you are coming here?" Whatever little power he has got, he's asserting his mastership: "Don't come here." The same mentality. Hmm. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "The best change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here."
Prabhupāda: This is the authoritative source says: that you are not master, you are servant. Cultivate this knowledge. Don't try to become a master, falsely. That will never be successful. Remain servant of Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy. That is the business of spiritual master. He gives the right information; therefore he is respected so much, because he does not cheat. "Yes, you can become master, even God you can become"—this is cheating. The real spiritual master says that "You can never become master. You are always servant." And therefore he's worshiped. He gives the right information. Therefore he is honored so, because he does not cheat. The so-called spiritual master is cheating, that "You take this mantra and give me some money and you become God." This cheating is going on. Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives the right information. That is his credit. Guruṣu nara-mati (Padma Purāṇa). Therefore one should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, he'll cheat you, or he'll give some information, he's cheating. But a guru, real guru, he'll not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good . . . God does not cheat you. Therefore guru should not be taken as ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-mati. "I see that he is like ordinary man. His son is calling him 'father.' His wife is . . ." That's all right, but because he's giving the right information, he is not ordinary human being. Therefore he should be worshiped as good as God. He does not cheat. That is the test of guru. He'll never say that "You give me some bribe and you'll become God by meditation, transcendental." He'll never say that. This is cheating. Why father is respected? Because he never cheats the son. Father is also a man, another man. Why father is . . .? Because he's always wishing welfare of the son; he does not cheat, sincerely teaches him the reality. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal, blissful life."
Prabhupāda: All right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
- 1976 - Conversations
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