760625 - Conversation - New Vrindaban, USA

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

760625R1-NEW VRINDAVAN - June 25, 1976 - 93.34 Minutes

(Conversation and Reading from Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12)

Devotee (1): These are publicity for the Ratha-yātrā. This is the article about the building, how it's the most attractive real estate near Cleveland. It's in the paint and flowers and gardens.

Prabhupāda: This year's?

Devotee (1): Yes. People would drive by the temple, Prabhupāda, and just look. They would drive by and look once, drive a little further and look twice and three times.

Prabhupāda: But San Francisco we haven't got our temple.

Devotee (1): What's that?

Prabhupāda: We haven't got any temple.

Devotee (1): No. We used the photograph. We made a publicity notice, a news release, and they printed it directly. It was easier for them. The picture is of San Francisco, but the festival was in Cleveland.

Prabhupāda: There is no date? Hmm?

Devotee (1): Maybe not in that one article. Other articles, there are dates.

Prabhupāda: Is this Cleveland?

Devotee (1): Yes. There are many skyscrapers, tall buildings. There are many tall buildings, and people were looking out at the Ratha-yātrā cart and at Lord Jagannātha.

Prabhupāda: (looking through articles) Here, the date, time is.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: We have found, Śrīla Prabhupāda, when the buses are going to many of these cities, they have never seen our devotees, because when we go, we are dressed like they are, for distributing the books. So now the boys are going again in the streets with a kīrtana party once a week downtown, and they have all done front-page newspaper articles, because although they have been reading the books, they have never seen the devotees in many years. I think festivals like this . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: . . . in all these cities would be very advantageous, and all the book distribution . . .

Prabhupāda: And therefore I said that introduce Ratha-yātrā in every city.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Every city.

Prabhupāda: At least wherever we have got our centers. Bring Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa. They have received some testimonial from Indian . . .

Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. Indian reviews?

Prabhupāda: You can open this fan. (fan turned on) I don't want, but . . .

Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, how should we have these Ratha-yātrā festivals? Should they be big? Should they be big festivals? Should I plan on having three carts next year, or just one, or a small cart?

Prabhupāda: As you can afford. Minimum one cart. Otherwise, three carts. In India the Ratha-yātrā festival is going on, according to rough estimate, for the last two thousand years, and the crowd never diminishes. One secretary of Parliament or something like that . . .

Hari-śauri: Śrī R. Subramanian, M.A., Deputy Director Research, Lok Sabha Secretariat, National Parliament, New Delhi. Should I read it? "A strange feature of the modern world is that in spite of vast advances in science and technology and the establishment of a good number of institutions for human welfare, mankind has not found true peace and happiness. Knowledge of material sciences and arts has increased tremendously in recent times, and millions of volumes on each fill the libraries the world over. People and leaders in every country are generally well versed in these arts and sciences, but despite their efforts, human society everywhere continues to be in turmoil and distress. The reason is not far to see. It is that they have not learned the science of God, the most fundamental of every other art and science, and fail to apply it to the facts of life. The need of the hour is, therefore, to do it if mankind is not only to survive but flower into a glorious existence. To teach this science of God to people everywhere and to aid them in their progress and development towards the real goal of life, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the most eminently fitted. In fact, this great ancient work of Vyāsa will fill this need of the modern times, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society. His Divine Grace Śrīla A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, the founder-ācārya of the ISKCON movement, has taken it upon himself, in addition to his ceaseless travels and other multifarious activities in the service of the Lord, the stupendous task of translating this Sanskrit work into English in about sixty volumes for the welfare and happiness of mankind. It is really astonishing how he is able to do this single-handed, and when one comes to think of this, apart from his other great literary works, one is tempted to wonder if he is not the same Vyāsa Muni reborn today to adapt his own old work (devotees respond enthusiatically) into a universal language of this age for the spiritual upliftment of the modern man.

"So far eight volumes . . ." this should be "eighteen volumes," I think, "eighteen volumes of this most beautiful literature on God have been brought out by ISKCON, and the rest are under preparation. Needless to say that in keeping with the excellence of their other publications, the publishers have seen to it that the printing, get-up and pictures in these volumes are also of the highest quality, as though to serve as an ornament to the divine contents of the books. This is a rare opportunity to people and leaders of every country, race and community in the world to know and understand the glorious science of God and work for their perfection. I would say that this encyclopedia of spiritual knowledge is more important and fundamental than the encyclopedia of any other branch of knowledge and should, therefore, find a rightful place not only in the public and private libraries, big and small, of educational and other institutions, as also of every household, but above all in the hearts and minds of every man and woman." That seems to be it.

Prabhupāda: Now read.

Pradyumna: First Canto, Chapter Five.

sūta uvāca

atha taṁ sukham āsīna

upāsīnaṁ bṛhac-chravāḥ . . .

Prabhupāda: You can keep it here.

Pradyumna:

devarṣiḥ prāha viprarṣiṁ

vīṇā-pāṇiḥ smayann iva

(SB 1.5.1)

Synonyms also? Read synonyms also?

Prabhupāda: No, just text.

Pradyumna: "Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada . . ."

Prabhupāda: Where is your son?

Devotee (2): He is at Pennsylvania, the gurukula, for now.

Prabhupāda: Your wife?

Devotee (2): She is here. She wanted to see you.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Devotee (2): She can come in? She can come in for a minute; she has the baby with her.

Prabhupāda: All right, let her in.

Devotee (2): This is made with wheat from the farm.

Pradyumna: He's on the Pennsylvania farm, with Paramānanda.

Prabhupāda: Paramānanda is there?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are doing well?

Devotee (2): Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Hear, now.

Pradyumna: "Thus the sage among the gods, Nārada, comfortably seated and apparently smiling, addressed the ṛṣi amongst the brāhmaṇas, Vedavyāsa."

Purport: "Nārada was smiling because he well knew the great sage Vedavyāsa and the cause of his disappointment. As he will explain gradually, Vyāsadeva's disappointment was due to insufficiency in presenting the science of devotional service. Nārada knew the defect, and it was confirmed by the position of Vyāsa."

Text number two.

nārada uvāca

pārāśarya mahā-bhāga

bhavataḥ kaccid ātmanā

parituṣyati śārīra

ātmā mānasa eva vā

(SB 1.5.2)

Translation. "Addressing Vyāsadeva, the son of Parāśara, Nārada inquired: Are you satisfied by identifying with the body or the mind as the objects of self-realization?"

Purport: "This was a hint by Nārada to Vyāsadeva regarding the cause of his despondency. Vyāsadeva, as the descendant of Parāśara, a greatly powerful sage, had the privilege of having a great parentage, which should not have given Vyāsadeva cause for despondency. Being a great son of a great father, he should not have identified the self with the body or the mind. Ordinary men with a poor fund of knowledge can identify the body as self or the mind as self, but Vyāsadeva should not have done so. One cannot be cheerful by nature unless one is factually seated in self-realization, which is transcendental to the material body and mind."

jijñāsitaṁ susampannam

api te mahad-adbhutam

kṛtavān bhārataṁ yas tvaṁ

sarvārtha-paribṛṁhitam

(SB 1.5.3)

"Your inquiries were full and your studies were also well fulfilled, and there is no doubt that you have prepared a great and wonderful work, the Mahābhārata, which is full of all kinds of Vedic sequences elaborately explained."

Purport: "The despondency of Vyāsadeva was certainly not due to his lack of sufficient knowledge, because as a student he had fully inquired about the Vedic literatures, as a result of which the Mahābhārata is compiled with full explanation of the Vedas."

jijñāsitam adhītaṁ ca

brahma yat tat sanātanam

tathāpi śocasy ātmānam

akṛtārtha iva prabho

(SB 1.5.4)

"You have fully delineated the subject of impersonal Brahman, as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. In spite of all this, why should you be despondent, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu?"

Purport: "The Vedānta-sūtra or Brahma-sūtra compiled by Śrī Vyāsadeva is the full deliberation of the impersonal absolute feature, and it is accepted as the most exalted philosophical exposition in the world. It covers the subject of eternity, and the methods are scholarly. So there cannot be any doubt about the transcendental scholarship of Vyāsadeva. So why should he lament?"

vyāsa uvāca

asty eva me sarvam idaṁ tvayoktaṁ

tathāpi nātmā parituṣyate me

tan-mūlam avyaktam agādha-bodhaṁ

pṛcchāmahe tvātma-bhavātma-bhūtam

(SB 1.5.5)

"Śrī Vyāsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one, Brahmā, who is self-born, without mundane mother and father."

Purport. "In the material world everyone is engrossed with the idea of identifying the body or mind with the self. As such, all knowledge disseminated in the material world is related either with the body or with the mind, and that is the root cause of all despondencies. This is not always detected, even though one may be the greatest erudite scholar in materialistic knowledge. It is good, therefore, to approach a personality like Nārada to solve the root cause of all despondencies. Why Nārada should be approached is explained below."

sa vai bhavān veda samasta-guhyam

upāsito yat puruṣaḥ purāṇaḥ

parāvareśo manasaiva viśvaṁ

sṛjaty avaty atti guṇair asaṅgaḥ

(SB 1.5.6)

"My lord! Everything that is mysterious is known to you because you worship the creator and destroyer of the material world and the maintainer of the spiritual world, the original Personality of Godhead, who is transcendental to the three modes of material nature."

Purport: "A person who is cent percent engaged in the service of the Lord is the emblem of all knowledge. Such a devotee of the Lord in full perfection of devotional service is also perfect by the qualification of the Personality of Godhead. As such, the eightfold perfections of mystic power, aṣṭa-siddhi, constitute very little of his godly opulence. A devotee like Nārada can act wonderfully by his spiritual perfection, which every individual is trying to attain. Śrīla Nārada is a cent percent perfect living being, although not equal to the Personality of Godhead."

tvaṁ paryaṭann arka iva tri-lokīm

antaś-caro vāyur ivātma-sākṣī

parāvare brahmaṇi dharmato vrataiḥ

snātasya me nyūnam alaṁ vicakṣva

(SB 1.5.7)

"Like the sun, Your Goodness can travel everywhere in the three worlds, and like the air you can penetrate the internal region of everyone. As such, you are as good as the all-pervasive Supersoul. Please, therefore, find out the deficiency in me, despite my being absorbed in transcendence under disciplinary regulations and vows."

Purport: "Transcendental realization, pious activities, worshiping the Deities, charity, mercifulness, nonviolence and studying the scriptures under strict disciplinary regulations are always helpful."

Text 8.

śrī nārada-uvāca

bhavatānudita-prāyaṁ

yaśo bhagavato 'malam

yenaivāsau na tuṣyeta

manye tad-darśanaṁ khilam

(SB 1.5.8)

"Śrī Nārada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Personality of Godhead. That philosophy which does not satisfy the transcendental senses of the Lord is considered worthless."

Purport: "The eternal relation of an individual soul with the Supreme Soul Personality of Godhead is constitutionally one of being the eternal servitor of the eternal master. The Lord has expanded Himself as living beings in order to accept loving service from them, and this alone can satisfy both the Lord and the living beings. A scholar like Vyāsadeva has completed many expansions of the Vedic literatures, ending with the Vedānta philosophy, but none of them have been written directly glorifying the Personality of Godhead. Dry philosophical speculations even on the transcendental subject of the Absolute have very little attraction without directly dealing with the glorification of the Lord. The Personality of Godhead is the last word in transcendental realization. The Absolute realized as impersonal Brahman or localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, is less productive of transcendental bliss than the supreme personal realization of His glories. The compiler of the Vedānta-darśana is Vyāsadeva himself. Yet he is troubled, although he is the author. So what sort of transcendental bliss can be derived by the readers and listeners of Vedānta, which is not explained directly by Vyāsadeva the author? Herein arises the necessity of explaining Vedānta-sūtra in the form of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by the self-same author." If it hasn't been ex . . . if he has not said it, so how can they know it from Vedānta-sūtra?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: If he has not said it, so how can they know it?

yathā dharmādayaś cārtha

muni-varyānukīrtitāḥ

na tathā vāsudevasya

mahimā hy anuvarṇitaḥ

(SB 1.5.9)

"Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles, beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, Vāsudeva."

Purport: "The prompt diagnosis of Śrī Nārada is at once declared. The root cause of the despondency of Vyāsadeva was his deliberate avoidance of glorifying the Lord in his various editions of the Purāṇas. He has certainly, as a matter of course, given descriptions of the glories of the Lord (Śrī Kṛṣṇa), but not as many as given to religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and salvation. These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference. And still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely . . ."

Prabhupāda: Why not go there? You can go there.

Hari-śauri: In the big room? Yes. It's better. It's too crowded here.

Prabhupāda: Let us go there. (break)

Devotee (1): . . . trying to retire here in one year when he's through with his duties as a director of a mental hospital.

Prabhupāda: Which community?

Devotee (1): He plans to come here to retire in one year.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, everyone should retire and join us.

Devotees: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: At least those who are above fifty years old. That is Vedic civilization. Pañcasordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. One who is over fifty years of age, vanaṁ vrajet. So vanaṁ vrajet means completely retired from family responsibilities and take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is compulsory according to Vedic civilization. Hmm.

Pradyumna: "These four items are by far inferior to engagement in the devotional service of the Lord. Śrī Vyāsadeva, as the authorized scholar, knew very well this difference, and still, instead of giving more importance to the better type of engagement, namely the devotional service of the Lord, he had more or less improperly used his valuable time, and thus he was despondent. From this it is clearly indicated that no one can be pleased substantially without being engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā this fact is clearly mentioned. After liberation, which is the last item in the line of performing religiosity, etcetera, one is engaged in pure devotional service. This is called the stage of self-realization, or brahma-bhūta stage. After attainment of this brahma-bhūta stage one is satisfied, but satisfaction is the beginning of transcendental bliss. One should progress by attaining neutrality and equality in the relative world. In passing this stage of equanimity, one is fixed up in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This is the instruction of the Personality of Godhead in the Bhagavad-gītā. The conclusion is that in order to maintain the status quo of the brahma-bhūta stage, as also to increase the degree of transcendental realization, it is recommended by Nārada to Vyāsadeva that he, Vyāsadeva, should now eagerly and repeatedly describe the path of devotional service. This would cure him from gross despondency."

na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo

jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit

tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā

na yatra haṁsā niramanty uśikkṣayāḥ

(SB 1.5.10)

"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows."

Prabhupāda: Just like the modern newspaper. Huge bundle of newspaper every morning, huh? So it is, as it is said here, the place of enjoyment for the crows. Hmm? What is that?

Pradyumna: Vāyasaṁ tīrtham.

Prabhupāda: Vāyasaṁ. Vāyasaṁ means crows. The crows, they take pleasure in a place where all rubbish and refuses are thrown. They take pleasure. So what is this newspaper? All rubbish things, they are collected together. Nobody likes it to read. They just glance over for a few minutes, and then it is thrown away, rubbish. And even it is thrown there, nobody touches it. So they are spending huge, so many newspapers. Each newspaper several editions in a day, huge establishment, but there is no substance of life. That is being described. Na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo. Read it.

Pradyumna:

na yad vacaś citra-padaṁ harer yaśo

jagat-pavitraṁ pragṛṇīta karhicit

tad vāyasaṁ tīrtham uśanti mānasā

na yatra haṁsā niramanty uśikkṣayāḥ

(SB 1.5.10)

"Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there."

Prabhupāda: Purport.

Pradyumna: "Crows and swans are not birds of the same feather because of their different mental attitudes. The fruitive workers or passionate men are compared to the crows, whereas the all-perfect saintly persons are compared to the swans. Crows take pleasure in a place where garbage is thrown out, just as the passionate fruitive workers take pleasure in wine and women and places for gross sense pleasure. The swans do not take pleasure in the places where crows are assembled for conferences and meetings. They are instead seen in the atmosphere of natural scenic beauty, where there are transparent reservoirs of water nicely decorated with stems of lotus flowers in variegated colors of natural beauty. That is the difference between the two classes of birds.

"Nature has influenced different species of life with different mentalities, and it is not possible to bring them up into the same rank and file. Similarly, there are different kinds of literature for different types of men of different mentality. Mostly the market literatures which attract men of the crow's categories are literatures containing refuse remnants of sensuous topics. They are generally known as mundane talks in relation with the gross body and subtle mind. They are full of subject matter described in decorative language full of mundane similies and metaphorical arrangements. Yet with all that, they do not glorify the Lord. Such poetry and prose on any subject matter is considered decoration of a dead body. Spiritually advanced men, who are compared with the swans, do not take pleasure in such dead literatures, which are sources of pleasure for men who are spiritually dead. These literatures in the modes of passion and ignorance are distributed under different labels, but they can hardly help the spiritual urge of the human being, and thus the swanlike spiritually advanced men have nothing to do with them.

"Such spiritually advanced men are called also mānasa, because they always keep up the standard of transcendental voluntary service to the Lord on the spiritual plane. This completely forbids fruitive activities for gross bodily sense satisfaction or subtle speculation of the material egoistic mind. Social literary men, scientists, mundane poets, theoretical philosophers and politicians who are completely absorbed in the material advancement of sense pleasure are all dolls of the material energy. They take pleasure in a place where rejected subject matters are thrown. According to Śrīdhara Swami, this is the pleasure of the prostitute hunters. But literatures which describe the glories of the Lord are enjoyed by the paramahaṁsas who have grasped the essence of human activities."

When you said that transcendentally spiritually advanced men are called mānasa, that means "with the mind," because they are always thinking of?

Prabhupāda: Yes, always. Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa.

Pradyumna:

tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo

yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api

nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ṅkitāni yat

śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ

(SB 1.5.11)

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of pastimes of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etcetera, of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

Purport: "It is a qualification of the great thinkers to pick up the best even from the worst. It is said that the intelligent man should pick up nectar from a stock of poison, should accept gold even from a filthy place, should accept a good and qualified wife even from an obscure family, and should accept a good lesson even from a man or from a teacher who comes from the untouchables. These are some of the ethical instructions for everyone in every place without exception. But a saint is far above the level of an ordinary man, and he is always absorbed in glorifying the Supreme Lord, because by broadcasting the holy name and fame of the Supreme Lord the polluted atmosphere of the world will change, and as a result of propagating the transcendental literatures like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, people will become sane in their transactions.

"While preparing this commentation on this particular stanza of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we have a crisis before us. Our neighboring friend China has attacked the border of India with a militaristic spirit. We have practically no business in the political field, yet we see that previously there were both China and India, and they both lived peacefully for centuries without ill feeling. The reason is that they lived those days in an atmosphere of God consciousness, and every country over the surface of the world was God-fearing, pure-hearted and simple, and there was no question of political diplomacy. There was no cause of quarrel between the two countries of China and India over land which is not very suitable for habitation, and certainly there was no cause for fighting on this issue. But due to the age of quarrel, Kali, which we have discussed, there is always a chance of quarrel on slight provocation. This is due not to the issue in question but to the polluted atmosphere of this age. Systematically there is propaganda by a section of people to stop glorification of the name and fame of the Supreme Lord. Therefore there is great need for disseminating the message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam all over the world. It is the duty of every responsible Indian to broadcast the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the world to do all the supermost good, as well as to bring about the desired peace in the world. Because India has failed in her duty by neglecting this responsible work, there is so much quarrel and trouble all over the world. We are confident that if the transcendental message of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is received only by the leading men of the world, certainly there will be a change of heart, and naturally the people in general will follow them. The mass of people in general are tools in the hands of modern politicians and leaders of the people. If there is a change of heart of the leaders only, certainly there will be a radical change in the atmosphere of the world. We know that our honest attempt to present this great literature conveying transcendental messages for reviving the God consciousness of the people in general and respiritualizing the world atmosphere is fraught with many difficulties. Our presenting this matter in adequate language, especially a foreign language, will certainly fail, and there will be so many literary discrepancies despite our honest attempt to present it in the proper way. But we are sure that with all our faults in this connection, the seriousness of the subject matter will be taken into consideration, and the leaders of society will still accept this, due to its being an honest attempt to glorify the almighty God. When there is fire in a house, the inmates of the house go out to get help from the neighbors, who may be foreigners, and yet without knowing the language, the victims of the fire express themselves and the neighbors understand the need, even though not expressed in the same language. The same spirit of cooperation is needed to broadcast this transcendental message of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam throughout the polluted atmosphere of the world. After all, it is a technical science of spiritual values, and thus we are concerned with the techniques and not with the language. If the techniques of this great literature are understood by the people of the world, there will be success.

"When there are too many materialistic activities by the people in general all over the world, there is no wonder that a person or nation attacks another person or nation on slight provocation. That is the rule of this age of Kali, or quarrel. The atmosphere is already polluted with corruption of all description, and everyone knows it well. There are so many unwanted literatures full of materialistic ideas of sense gratification. The people in general want to read. That is a natural instinct. But because their minds are polluted, they want such literatures. Under the circumstances, transcendental literature like Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will not only diminish the activities of the corrupt minds of the people in general, but also it will supply food for their hankering after reading some interesting literature. In the beginning they may not like it, because one suffering from jaundice is reluctant to take sugar candy, but we should know that sugar candy is the only remedy for the jaundice. Similarly, let there be systematic propaganda for popularizing reading of the Bhagavad-gītā and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which will act like sugar candy for the jaundicelike condition of sense gratification. When men have a taste for this literature, the other literatures, which are catering poison to society, will then automatically cease. We are sure therefore that everyone in the human society will welcome Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, even though it is now presented with so many faults, for it is recommended by Śrī Nārada, who has very kindly appeared in this chapter."

Prabhupāda: So what other literatures say? There is not one. In our Society we do not read even newspaper, is it not? Do we? Huh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Only in context to our preaching work.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But generally . . . we do not derive any benefit from those. People read it, especially in the Western county. If there is no newspaper it is hell. I told you this story? Yes. You can repeat that.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: The preacher was preaching to the coal miners that if they were not good, they would go to hell, and in hell it was very cold. So they were thinking, "So it is very cold in the mine." Then he was saying that it is very dark in hell. "But it is very dark in the mine." Then he said, "And there are no newspapers." "Oh, how horrible! What a horrible place that must be."

Prabhupāda: When they heard in the hell there is no newspaper, then came to the idea, "Oh, it is horrible." Otherwise, cold, dark, "Oh, this is our custom. We are already accustomed to these habits, we are working in the mine. So don't make any distinction between hell and our present residential quarters. But if there is no newspaper, certainly that is hell."

Pradyumna:

naiṣkarmyam apy acyuta-bhāva-varjitaṁ

na śobhate jñānam alaṁ nirañjanam

kutaḥ punaḥ śaśvad abhadram īśvare

na cārpitaṁ karma yad apy akāraṇam

(SB 1.5.12)

"Knowledge of self-realization, even though freed from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the infallible God. What then is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the devotional service of the Lord?"

Purport: "As referred to above, not only ordinary literatures devoid of the transcendental glorification of the Lord are condemned, but also Vedic literatures and speculation on the subject of impersonal Brahman when they are devoid of devotional service. When speculation on the impersonal Brahman is condemned on the above ground, then what to speak of ordinary fruitive work, which is not meant to fulfill the aim of devotional service. Such speculative knowledge and fruitive work cannot lead one to the goal of perfection. Fruitive work, in which almost all people in general are engaged, is always painful, either in the beginning or at the end. It can only be fruitful when made subservient to the devotional service of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also it is confirmed that the result of such fruitive work may be offered for the service of the Lord, otherwise it leads to material bondage. The bona fide enjoyer of the fruitive work is the Personality of Godhead. And thus when it is engaged for the sense gratification of the living entities, it becomes an acute source of trouble."

atho mahā-bhāga bhavān amogha-dṛk

śuci-śravāḥ satya-rato dhṛta-vrataḥ

urukramasyākhila-bandha-muktaye

samādhinānusmara tad-viceṣṭitam

(SB 1.5.13)

"O Vyāsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless, you are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness, and thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage."

Purport: "People in general have a taste for literature by instinct. They want to hear and read from the authorities something about the unknown, but their taste is exploited by unfortunate literatures, which are full of subject matter for satisfaction of the material senses. Such literatures contain different kinds of mundane poems and philosophical speculations more or less under the influence of māyā, ending in sense gratification. These literatures, although worthless in the true sense of the term, are variously decorated to attract the attention of the less intelligent men. Thus the attracted living entities are more and more entangled in material bondage without hope of liberation for thousands and thousands of generations.

"Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi, being the best among the Vaiṣṇavas, is compassionate on such unfortunate victims of worthless literatures, and thus he advises Śrī Vyāsadeva to compose transcendental literature which is not only attractive but can also actually bring liberation from all kinds of bondage. Śrīla Vyāsadeva or his representatives are qualified because they are rightly trained to see things in true perspective. Śrīla Vyāsadeva and his representatives are pure in thought due to their spiritual enlightenment; fixed in their vows, due to their devotional service; and determined to deliver the fallen souls rotting in material activities. The fallen souls are very eager to receive novel informations every day, and the transcendentalists like Vyāsadeva or Nārada can supply such eager people in general with unlimited news from the spiritual world. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the material world is only a part of the whole creation, and that this earth is only a fragment of the whole material world.

"There are thousands and thousands of literary men all over the world, and they have created many, many thousands of literary works for the information of the people in general for thousands and thousands of years. Unfortunately . . . (break) . . . effect of liberation from the pangs of material civilization, which is eating the vital parts of the human energy. The Bhagavad-gītā, which is the spoken message of the Lord Himself recorded by Vyāsadeva, and the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is the transcendental narration of the activities of the same Lord Kṛṣṇa, which alone can satisfy the hankering desires of the living being for eternal peace and liberation from miseries. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is, therefore, meant for all the living beings all over the universe for total liberation from all kinds of material bondage. Such transcendental narrations of the pastimes of the Lord can only be described by liberated souls like Vyāsadeva and his bona fide representatives, who are completely merged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Only to such devotees do the pastimes of the Lord and their transcendental nature become automatically manifest by dint of devotional service. No one else can either know or describe the acts of the Lord, even if they speculate on the subject for many, many years. The descriptions of the Bhāgavatam are so precise and accurate that whatever has been predicted in this great literature about five thousand years before is now exactly happening. Therefore the vision of the author comprehends past, present and future. Such liberated persons like Vyāsadeva are not only perfect by the power of vision and wisdom but also in aural reception, in thinking, feeling and all other sense activities. A liberated person possesses perfect senses, and with perfect senses only can one serve the sense proprietor, Hṛṣīkeśa, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is therefore the perfect description of the all-perfect Personality of Godhead by the all-perfect personality, Śrī Vyāsadeva, the compiler of the Vedas."

tato 'nyathā kiñcana yad vivakṣataḥ

pṛthag dṛśas tat-kṛta-rūpa-nāmabhiḥ

na karhicit kvāpi ca duḥsthitā matir

labheta vātāhata-naur ivāspadam

(SB 1.5.14)

Hari-śauri: Bring that chair forward.

Prabhupāda: No, that's . . . (indistinct)

Pradyumna: "Whatever you desire to describe which is separate in vision from the Lord simply reacts with different forms, names and results to agitate the mind, as the wind agitates a boat which has no resting place."

Purport: "Śrī Vyāsadeva is the editor of all descriptions of the Vedic literatures, and thus he has described transcendental realization in different ways, namely by fruitive activities, speculative knowledge, mystic power and devotional service. Besides that, in his various Purāṇas he has recommended the worship of so many demigods in different forms and names. The result is that people in general are puzzled how to fix up their minds in the service of the Lord. They are always disturbed to find out the real path of self-realization. Śrīla Nāradadeva is stressing this particular defect in the Vedic literatures compiled by Vyāsadeva, and thus he is trying to emphasize describing everything in relation with the Supreme Lord and no one else. In fact there is nothing existent except the Lord. The Lord is manifested in different expansions. He is the root of the complete tree. He is the stomach of the complete body. As such, pouring water on the root is the right process to water the tree, as much as feeding the stomach supplies energy to all parts of the body.

"Śrīla Vyāsadeva should not have compiled any Purāṇas other than the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, because a slight deviation from that may create havoc for self-realization. If a slight deviation can create such havoc, then what to speak of deliberate expansion of the separatist idea from the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead? The most defective part of worshiping demigods is that it creates a definite conception of pantheism, ending disastrously in many religious sects detrimental to the progress of the principles of the Bhāgavatam, which alone can give the accurate direction for self-realization in eternal relation with the Personality of Godhead by devotional service in transcendental love. The example of the boat disturbed by whirling wind is suitable in this respect. The diverted mind of the pantheist can never reach to the perfection of self-realization, due to the disturbed condition of the selections of object."

jugupsitaṁ dharma-kṛte 'nuśāsataḥ

svabhāva-raktasya mahān vyatikramaḥ

yad-vākyato dharma itītaraḥ sthito

na manyate tasya nivāraṇaṁ janaḥ

(SB 1.5.15)

"The people in general are naturally inclined to enjoy, and you have encouraged them in that way in the name of religion. This is verily condemned and is quite unreasonable. Because they are guided under your instructions, they will accept such activities in the name of religion and will hardly care for prohibitions."

Purport: "Śrīla Vyāsadeva's compilation of various Vedic literatures on the basis of regulated performances of fruitive activities as depicted in the Mahābhārata and other literature is condemned herewith by Śrīla Nārada. The human beings, by long material association life after life, have a natural inclination by practice to endeavor to lord it over material energy. They have no sense of the responsibility of human life. This human form of life is a chance to get out of the clutches of illusory matter. The Vedas are meant for going back to Godhead, going back home. To revolve in the cycle of transmigration in a series of lives numbering 8,400,000 is an imprisoned life for the condemned conditioned souls. The human form of life is a chance to get out of this imprisoned life, and as such the only occupation of the human being is to reestablish his lost relationship with God. Under the circumstances, one should never be encouraged in making a plan for sense enjoyment in the name of religious functions. Such diversion of the human energy results in a misguided civilization. Śrīla Vyāsadeva is the authority in Vedic explanations and the Mahābhārata, etcetera, and his encouragement in sense enjoyment in some form or other is a great barrier for spiritual advancement, because the people in general will not agree to renounce material activities, which hold them in material bondage. At a certain stage of human civilization such material activities in the name of religion, as sacrificing animals in the name of yajña, were too much rampant. The Lord incarnated Himself as Buddha and decried the authority of the Vedas to stop animal sacrifice in the name of religion. This was foreseen by Nārada, and therefore he condemned such literatures. The flesh-eaters still continue to perform animal sacrifice before some demigod or goddess in the name of religion, because in some of the Vedic literatures such regulated sacrifice is recommended. They are so recommended to discourage flesh eating, but gradually the purpose of such religious activities is forgotten and the slaughterhouse becomes prominent. This is because foolish materialistic men do not care to listen to others who are actually in a position to explain the Vedic rites.

"In the Vedas it is distinctly said that the perfection of life is never to be attained either by voluminous work or by accumulation of wealth or even by increasing the number of population, but it is so attained only by renunciation. The materialistic men do not care to listen to such injunctions. According to them, the so-called renounced order of life is meant for those who are unable to earn their livelihood because of some corporeal defects or for persons who have failed to achieve prosperity in family life. In histories like the Mahābhārata, of course, there are topics on transcendental subjects along with material topics. The Bhagavad-gītā is there in the Mahābhārata. The whole idea of the Mahābhārata is culminated in the ultimate instructions of the Bhagavad-gītā, that one should relinquish all other engagements and should engage oneself solely and fully in surrendering unto the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But men with materialistic tendencies are more attracted to politics, economics and philanthropic activities mentioned in the Mahābhārata than to the principal topic, namely the Bhagavad-gītā. This compromising spirit of Vyāsadeva is directly condemned by Nārada, who advises him to directly proclaim that the prime necessity of human life is to realize one's eternal relation with the Lord and thus surrender unto Him without delay. A patient suffering from a particular type of malady is almost always inclined to accept eatables which are forbidden for him. The expert physician does not make any compromise with the patient by allowing him to take partially what he should not take at all. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that a man attached to fruitive work should not be discouraged from his occupation, for gradually he may be elevated to the position of self-realization. This is sometimes applicable for those who are only dry empiric philosophers without spiritual realization, but those who are in the devotional line need not be always so advised."

vicakṣaṇo 'syārhati vedituṁ vibhor

ananta-pārasya nivṛttitaḥ sukham

pravartamānasya guṇair anātmanas

tato bhavān darśaya ceṣṭitaṁ vibhoḥ

(SB 1.5.16)

"The Supreme Lord is unlimited. Only a very expert personality retired from the activities of material happiness deserves to understand this knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore those who are not so well situated due to material attachment should be shown the ways of transcendental realization by Your Goodness through descriptions of the transcendental activities of the Supreme Lord."

Purport: "Theological science is a difficult subject, especially when it deals with the transcendental nature of God. It is not a subject matter to be understood by persons who are too much attached to material activities. Only the very expert, who have almost retired from materialistic activities, by culture of spiritual knowledge can be admitted to the study of this great science. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly stated that out of many hundreds and thousands of men, only one person deserves to enter into transcendental realization, and out of many thousands of such transcendentally realized persons, only a few can understand the theological science specifically dealing with God as a person. Śrī Vyāsadeva is therefore advised by Nārada to describe the science of God directly by relating His transcendental activities. Vyāsadeva is himself a personality expert in this science, and he is unattached to material enjoyment; therefore he is the right person to describe it. And Sukadeva Gosvāmī, the son of Vyāsadeva, is the right person to receive it.

"Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, and therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses. Because it contains the transcendental activities of the Lord, there is no difference between the Lord and the literature. The literature is the factual literary incarnation of the Lord so the laymen can hear the narration of the activities of the Lord. Thereby they are able to associate with the Lord and thus gradually become purified from material diseases. The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotee in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activities, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His subsequent followers exhibited expert dexterity in this connection. By following the same method one can bring the materialistic men of this age of quarrel into order for peaceful life and transcendental realization."

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: About 7:20, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Should we take your leave?

Prabhupāda: Any question regarding this?

Pradyumna: Says "Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the topmost theological science, therefore it can react on the layman as medicinal doses"?

Prabhupāda: If they simply hear, it will act as medicine.

Devotee (1): Vyāsadeva is called tri-kala-jñā—he sees past, present and future. How is it that he sees the future, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: (indistinct—microphone rattling) Just like common business. Bring that black Bhāgavata. Five thousand years before Bhāgavatam was written, and so many foretelling are there, and they are arguing (microphone rattling—indistinct). If you like, you can keep it open. (referring to door)

Devotee (2): I was looking just now to see if my wife had . . . (indistinct) . . . can come in . . . (indistinct) . . . thought to open the door.

Prabhupāda: Twelfth Canto, Third Chapter.

Pradyumna: Tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ?

Prabhupāda: Hmm, before that.

Pradyumna: That is first chapter.

Prabhupāda: Read it, tataś cānu-dinam, it is third chapter.

Pradyumna: This is second.

Prabhupāda: First chapter, by the end, what it is written?

Pradyumna:

tan-nāthās te janapadās

tac-chīlācāra-vādinaḥ

anyonyato rājabhiś ca

kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ

(SB 12.1.41)

Prabhupāda: (microphone rattling—indistinct) What is the last verse you read?

Pradyumna: Yes, this is the last verse. It says everyone is rājabhiś ca kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ.

tan-nāthās te janapadās

tac-chīlācāra-vādinaḥ

anyonyato rājabhiś ca

kṣayaṁ yāsyanti pīḍitāḥ

(SB 12.1.41)

Prabhupāda: What is the note?

Pradyumna: (Śrīdhara Svāmī's commentary) kiṁ ca, tan nāthas te nātha yeṣaṁ te jana-pada deśa-vartino manuṣyas tac-chīlācārādinas teṣam iva śrīlamācāro . . .

Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-natha, śīlācārya. Śīlācārya is their behavior. If the politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will . . . (indistinct) . . . that's all. Go on, second chapter.

Pradyumna:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ

satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā

kālena balinā rājan

naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ

(SB 12.2.1)

Prabhupāda: Note?

Pradyumna: Says that, er, kali-dharmān prapañcayati-tataś cetyādinā.

Prabhupāda: That's all?

Pradyumna: Yes. He doesn't say.

Prabhupāda: How things will deteriorate, that is explained here. Tataś cānu-dinam?

Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucam . . .

Prabhupāda: With the progress of the Kali-yuga . . . the Kali-yuga has begun from the . . . after the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. So five thousand years ago. The whole duration of life of Kali-yuga is thirty-two hundred thousands of years. Thirty-two hundred thousands of years, out of which we have passed only five thousand years. Still, the balance is twenty-seven hundred thousands of years. So with the progress of this age, these things will happen. What is that? Tataś cānu-dinam?

Pradyumna: Dharmaḥ satyam.

Prabhupāda: Dharmaḥ. People will gradually decrease in their sense of religiosity, dharmaḥ. Then?

Pradyumna: Satyam.

Prabhupāda: They will be untruthful, hardly, because there is no training of brahminical culture how to become truthful. People think that "What is the wrong there, I shall speak something untruth?" So that means the value of truthfulness will decrease. And the importance of religion will decrease. This is the symptoms of Kali-yuga. Then?

Pradyumna: Śaucam.

Prabhupāda: Śaucam, cleanliness. People will become unclean more and more. Then?

Pradyumna: Kṣamā.

Prabhupāda: Kṣamā. Formerly saintly persons and leaders, they used to excuse. Now that, the sense of excusing, "All right, this man has done something, excuse him," that will decrease. The sense of religiosity, truthfulness, and . . .?

Pradyumna: Truthfulness, cleanliness, śaucam.

Prabhupāda: Cleanliness.

Pradyumna: Kṣamā.

Prabhupāda: And kṣamā, kṣamā means pardon. Then?

Pradyumna: Dayā.

Prabhupāda: Dayā, mercifulness. People will have no mercy. It has already begun. If somebody is attacked, being killed, nobody takes care; he goes in his own way. There is no mercy. There is no mercy to the animals. Now there is no mercy even to one's child; one's own child, they are killing. Just see how degraded, dayā. What to speak of no dayā, no mercy for the animals—all right, you are not so advanced—but the mother's mercy to the child will be diminished. This is foretelling. This is called tri-kala-jñā. Who expected that mother will kill the child? But Vyāsadeva, five thousand years ago, said, "Yes, mercy will be reduced." Then?

Pradyumna: Āyur.

Prabhupāda: Āyur, duration of life. The maximum duration of life in Kali-yuga is hundred years, but who is living hundred years? It is being reduced, and it will be so reduced that if a man would live twenty years, he is an old man. It will come to that stage. Now it is reducing, from hundred years to ninety years to eighty years.

Hari-śauri: The average is seventy-three years now.

Prabhupāda: Seventy, then sixty then fifty. In this way, if a man lives from twenty to thirty years he will be considered grand old man. (laughter) These are the symptoms, āyur. Then?

Pradyumna: Balam.

Prabhupāda: And bodily strength. Bodily strength . . . in India we, in our childhood, I have seen when British rule was there, all the Europeans were coming, very strong and stout and strong. Now such Europeans are not coming. Even bodily strength reduced. Then?

Pradyumna: Smṛtiḥ.

Prabhupāda: And memory. It will reduce. Just see, compare everything—religiosity and the power of mercifulness, pardoning, truthfulness, cleanliness, bodily strength, duration of life—they're all reduced. Now who can say it is not reduced? Can you say? This is called tri-kala-jñā. Tatas, what is that? Cānu-dinaṁ rājan?

Pradyumna:

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ

satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā

kālena balinā rājan

naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ

(SB 12.2.1)

Prabhupāda: Kālena, in due course of time, all these items—there are eight items—it will be reducing, reducing, reducing. Reducing, reducing so much. So what is that?

Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now compared to five hundred or six hundred years ago.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee (3): They say that men are living longer now. The scientists, they say that there's less disease. They say that a hundred years ago people had more disease than . . . now they live longer.

Prabhupāda: That these rascals say. We do not say. We have seen in our childhood that my grandmother, she died at the age of ninety-six years. There was no disease. The scientists say that there was disease, now there is no disease?

Devotee (3): They say there is less disease now. They say that . . .

Prabhupāda: Less disease—everyone suffering from cancer.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They are building more hospitals.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Not less.

Prabhupāda: Just see. They're increasing number of hospitals, and there is no disease?

Devotee (3): They say that a child has more of a chance of living now than . . .

Prabhupāda: "They say," but what is the practical? They say all, as I repeatedly, pagale ki na bole chakole ki na khaya. A madman, what does he not say, and a goat, what does he not eat? So they are all madmen. (laughter) They can say all everything.

Devotee (1): They are experimenting, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with genes now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): You say that we are losing the qualities of memory, strength, but they are experimenting where they can isolate genes of persons who have those qualities and then put on . . .

Prabhupāda: But we have to see actually what is happening.

Devotee (4): They are also transplanting livers and hearts, increasing the duration of life.

Prabhupāda: So whatever they may do, things will happen like this. This is a fact. Can they increase the duration of life? People, can they make any scientific discovery that no man will die less than hundred years? Is there any such discovery?

Hari-śauri: The only discoveries they have made so far are how to kill people quicker.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Is there any discovery that here is a pill, you go on taking it, you'll not die before hundred years? Is there any discovery? Then what is the use of talking nonsense? They are reducing their life, that's a fact. And so far as mercy is concerned, we see how much it is reduced. The mother is killing child. Where is mercy now? So they may say anything like madman, but we see practically what is happening. Then?

Pradyumna:

vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ

janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ

dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ

kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi

(SB 12.2.2)

Prabhupāda: So vittam, money. Money is the criterion, not family. Formerly, there was family, respectable family, aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, kṣatriya family. All these things are gone now. If you accumulate some money some way or other, then you are respectable, never mind what you are. That is Kali-yuga symptom: their position in society, if you want to be respectable man, you somehow or other gather money. Never mind how we have gathered, what is the method. It doesn't matter. Get some money and you become respectable. Vittam eva hi.

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Ah, janmācāra. First of all, janma, the family, heredity, was taken into consideration, but that is now forgotten. Get money. Just like in England that the British Empire policy was that you bring money from outside and deposit in the government treasury and you become lord. Is it not? Bring money, some way or other. So that was going on, exploiting. They used to go to the foreign countries and somehow or other accumulate money. Just like Lord Clive. He was a street boy, but he made some policy. In this way, diplomacy, he entered into Bengal and got some money, and Lord Clive, he became Lord Clive. So money is the criterion. Some way or other, bring money, that's all. That's a fact. These are the symptoms. Just try to understand.

Pradyumna: Vittam eva kalau nṛṇāṁ janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: If you have money, then you are aristocratic; then whatever you do, it is all right. Janmācāra, then?

Pradyumna: Guṇa.

Prabhupāda: Guṇa. You are most qualified man. You may be a drunkard, you may be a prostitute hunter, whatever you may be, but because you have money you are a qualified man. Then?

Pradyumna: Janmācāra-guṇodayaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: Dharma-nyāya-vyavasthāyāṁ kāraṇaṁ balam eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Dharma-nyāya. Now, if you want justice, you can get it according to your desire, justice, if you have got money. That is going on, that if you bribe to the court's men and even to the judge or magistrate, you get justice accordingly. That is going on. Dharma ācāra. Then?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur.

Prabhupāda: Hmm? Dāmpatye?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye abhirucir, hetur . . .

Prabhupāda: Abhirucir, yes. Now formerly marriage was a religious ceremony. Marriage was, this boy and this girl should be married, it is a religious function where the father and mother will see their horoscope and see if they are compatible, they will agree, they will live peacefully. So many things are there. Still, in India such things are calculated by the parents of the boy and the girl. Now, in this Kali-yuga, you see, dāmpatye abhirucir. Abhirucir means the boy and the girl, if he likes, if he says, that's all. No other calculation. And then, after three days after marriage, they will divorce. (laughter) Because abhirucir, abhirucir: "I like, I don't like," that's all. Now I like, and after three days don't like, finished, business. In Chicago I saw a newspaper. One girl, within three weeks she has divorced two husbands. (laughter) Yes, I saw it in the newspaper. So this . . . formerly the father, mother used to see that this boy and girl is going to be married. So by horoscope, by other circumstances, by family, cultural . . . (indistinct) . . . by education, so many things, whether they will live peacefully. That was the understanding. Husband-wife means, a man requires a woman, a woman requires a man. They should be combined in such a way that they can live peacefully. If there is no disturbance of the mind, then they can make further progress in spiritual life. Therefore marriage is also necessary, and that must be properly done. This was the . . . now there is no such consideration. The boys and girls are free, and if one likes the other . . . dāmpatye . . . what is that?

Pradyumna: Dāmpatye 'bhirucir hetur.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Ruci. Ruci means liking. Then?

Pradyumna: I think it is māyaiva vyāvahārike.

Prabhupāda: Ah, māyaiva vyāvahārike. In ordinary dealings there is cheating. This is Kali-yuga. Ordinarily, even when gentleman-gentleman, so-called gentlemen talking, he's trying to cheat him, he's trying to cheat him. By talking. And ordinarily. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. To talk with gentleman-gentleman, it is ordinary thing, but still there will be so many untruthfulness. Māyaiva vyāvahārike. Then?

Pradyumna: Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir vipratve sūtram eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. And woman is nice, man is nice, this should be considered by sex power. Strītve puṁstve ca hi ratir. Then?

Pradyumna: Vipratve sūtram eva hi.

Prabhupāda: Vipratve sūtram eva hi. And there is a brāhmaṇa—what is the proof that he is a brāhmaṇa? He has got a sacred thread, that's all. Or thread. It may not be sacred; purchased from the market. So at least we try to give a sacred thread by ceremony. But anyone can purchase a thread from the market, two-paisa worth or one-cent worth, and become a brāhmaṇa. "You are a brāhmaṇa?" "Yes, you see my sacred thread?" (laughter) Finished. "What you are doing?" "Never mind." Don't be such brāhmaṇas, at least in our camp. You must follow the rules and regulations. Don't show that "I am now doubly initiated, sacred thread." Don't cheat in that way. Vipratve sūtram eva hi. Then?

Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama-khyātāv.

Prabhupāda: Liṅgam evāśrama-khyātāv. There are āśramas—brahmacārī, sannyāsī, gṛhastha. So they have got different dresses. So Kali-yuga, simply by dress he becomes a brahmacārī, he become a gṛhastha, he becomes a sannyāsī. Simply by dress. What he is acting, nobody cares, that's all. Then?

Pradyumna: Liṅgam, eva.

Prabhupāda: Liṅgam means the external feature. This is the dress of a sannyāsī, this is the dress of a gṛhastha. Just like daṇḍa. Daṇḍa is the symptom that he is a sannyāsī. Then?

Pradyumna: Liṅgam evāśrama-khyātāv anyonyāpatti-kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Then?

Pradyumna: Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam.

Prabhupāda: Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam. If you have no money, then you cannot get justice.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Cannot get . . .?

Prabhupāda: Justice. First of all you have to pay government so many percentage of money. Suppose somebody owes to you some money and he's not giving you. So if you want to go to the court, first of all you have to spend so much money. And if you have no money, then you cannot get your justice, money back. You have to pay this lawyer's fee, the stand duty, and so on, so on. But if you say, "I have no money," then forget justice. That's all. Avṛttyā nyāya-daurbalyam.

Pradyumna: Pāṇḍitye cāpalaṁ vacaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Paṇḍita: if you can speak very vehemently any subject matter, people may or may not understand, and they will certify you, "Oh, this man is very learned." "What you have learned from him?" "Oh, I could not understand, but he spoke very nicely. He spoke very nicely." What is that nicely? That cāpala. (Prabhupāda speaks some gibberish) You go on speaking like that, (devotees laugh) and people will appreciate, "Oh, he's a big speaker!" What have you learned from him? Then?

Pradyumna: Then anadhyataivasādhutve sādhutve dambha eva tu.

Prabhupāda: And if you are poor man, then you are not honest. That is the criterion. "Oh, here is a . . ." When the poor man comes, you'll not give place at your place. If he wants to stay, you'll refuse: "No." Because he's poor, he's immediately accepted as dishonest. He may be honest or dishonest, but poverty is a sign for accepting a man as dishonest. Then?

Pradyumna:

anāḍhyataivāsādhutve

sādhutve dambha eva tu

svīkāra eva codvāhe

snānam eva prasādhanam

(SB 12.2.5)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage will go on simply by agreement, not by qualification. Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Snānam eva prasādhanam. And if you take bath, then all bodily cleanliness is finished, that's all. Then?

Pradyumna: Dūre vāry-ay . . .

Prabhupāda: Vāry-ayanam.

Pradyumna: Oh. Dūre . . .

Prabhupāda: Dūre vāry-ayanaṁ tīrtham. Tīrtham. If you go . . . Just like there is Vṛndāvana and here is New Vrindavan. But if you spend ten thousand dollars and go to Vṛndāvana, then it is pilgrimage. And here is Vṛndāvana-candra—so that is not very important. Dūre vāry-ayanam. You have to go far, far away, (laughter) then it will be pilgrimage. In India, there is Ganges in Calcutta. But they go to Hardwar. Then it is pilgrimage. (laughter) The same Ganges, coming from Hardwar. Then?

Pradyumna: Dūre vāry-ayanaṁ tīrthaṁ lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dhāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Lāvaṇyam, now you know very well in the Western country. Beauty increases by having long hair. (laughter) I was just trying to recite this verse only, and now see how it is current. Who expected that this foretelling is there in the Bhāgavatam? To increase beauty, have long hair. Is it not? Now just see. How five thousand years this thing was foretold? That is the proof. There was no hippie movement then. (laughs) But Vyāsadeva foretold that in the Kali-yuga, if one keeps long hair he will think himself as very beautiful. There are so many things.

So ultimately, with the advancement of Kali-yuga you'll have no food. Food means there will be no food grains, there will be no milk, there will be no sugar—like that. No fruits. If you get fruits, there will be no pulp; it is simply seeds. These things are there. You get a mango, but a mango means simply the big seed, that's all. So how can you check it? If nature's way things are going to happen like that, what the scientists will do? If there is no rice, no wheat, will the scientists . . .? They can say replace with a pill, but they cannot produce wheat or rice or ḍāl or milk, sugar. That is not possible.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? They have fashioned a way for the spacemen that they can drink their own urine and eat their own stool.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the most scientific improvement. (laughter) Yes. That they can do. (laughter) By scientific improvement, they can drink their own urine, very tasty. That is possible.

Devotee (1): With all these disqualifications, how can the general mass of people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only remedy. That is stated there. You'll find this verse,

kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann

asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ

kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet

(SB 12.3.51)

It is, the Kali-yuga, it is an ocean of faults. How . . .? Suppose all over your body there are boils. So where you will apply ointment? You just dip down. (laughter) (end)