761114 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

761114R2-VRNDAVAN - November 14, 1976 - 81.06 Minutes

(Conversation with Alex Kulik)

Guest: Yehi hai jaisa ki apne kaha ki Bharatvarsh rishi-muniyo ki sthan hai aur yaha ki parampara rehi hai ki wo humesha hi sansar ko margdarshan yaha ke rishi-muni dete rahe hai lekin aj ke samay me dekhte huye ye prashn bada grihastha ke liye khatakta hai aur wo ye hai ki jo kaam ek sadhu-sannyasi bade aram se kar sakte hai, wo grihastha ke liye bada mushkil ho jata hai. (As you rightly said, India is the land of sages who have been giving proper guidance to the whole world but in the present situation, a householder cannot practice those things that a renunciant can do very easily. Practical life.) Kehne ke liye sab dharma grantha yehi kehte hai ki satya bolo, par-stri ko mata samjho . . . (All the scriptures say the same thing, that one should be truthful, one should respect every woman other than his wife as mother . . .)

Prabhupāda: Aisa koi shastra me hai nahi. Aisa to koi shastra me bola nahi ki stri ko mata bolo. (No, there is no such scripture which says that every woman should be treated like a mother.)

Guest: Lekin jab practical life me ata hai to kitna admi satya bolta hai aur kitna . . . (But in practical life, how many people actually speak the truth or . . .)

Prabhupāda: Lekin stri ko mata bolna, ye to pagal koi bolta hai. (But only a madman will treat every woman as his mother.)

Guest: Par-stri ko. (Other's wives.)

Prabhupāda: Par-stri haa. (Yes, other's wives.)

Guest: To mere kehne ka matlab ye hai ki grihastha ke liye aj ke jivan me kisi siddhant pe jamna bada muskhil ho jata hai. Rog, sarkar ke kanuno se to wo vanchit reh nahi sakta. Kyuki jo sadhu-mahatma hai, use to keval apni fikr hoti hai. Din-bhar Ramayana padh sakta hai, Mahabharat padh sakta hai, Gita padh sakta hai aur use na sarkar se matlab hai, na dhandhe se matlab hai, na kisi chiz se matlab hai. Lekin ek grihasthi ke liye ye apka kathan bilkul satya hai ki jitna ho sake utna kiya jaye, satya bola jaye, accha vyavahar rakha jaye lekin hum grihasthiyo ke liye kya aise samay me karna chahiye jaha ki jhuth ka vyapar chal raha hai, jhuthi pratishtha ke liye sarkar me daur rahe hai admi aur in vakilo ka jo dhandha hai, wo to ap jante hi hai ki teen se do ka agar mukadma a jaye to chahe party ne usko katl kiya hai ya nahi kiya hai, wo to ye kehte hai ki hum bacha denge. To jhuth bolna sikhana ye to inka pesha hai. To matlab ye hai ki aj ke jivan me ye satya kaise bole? (No, what I mean to say is that a householder cannot stick to one particular philosophy of life because he has to deal with the government, state laws and bodily diseases. Great saints have renounced everything so they can sit all day long and read Mahabharata, Ramayana, Bhagavad-gītā etc. They have nothing to do with mundane business or the state government. But what you have recommended for a householder is perfect, that they should try to cultivate good behavior and honesty as much as possible. So my question to you is how should a householder like me follow these things when there is widespread corruption and political turmoil? You know very well how the lawyers are ready to accept bribes and save anyone, irrespective of whether or not they have committed the murder. So their profession is to turn people into liars. In such a situation, how is it possible to speak the truth?)

Prabhupāda: Iska karan hai ki usko Bhagavad-gītā sikhaya nahi jata aur Bhagavad-gītā gyan ke vishay me sab murkh hai. Bhagavan kehte hai sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ . . . usko mante nahi. Aur jaisa grihasthi ka baat apne bataya hai to Arjuna to grihastha hi tha. Unko Bhagavan samjhaya aur wo military man, koi Vedantist nahi the na to brahmana the. Ksatriya, ladai karne wala, grihasthi. Aur ladai me upasthith tha jo rajya unse chin liya gaya tha, to usko uddhar karne. Ye sab jhanjhat thi. Ye to ap manenge. Wo kaisa Bhagavad suna aur Bhagavan kyu usko certificate de, bhaktosi priyosi me, bataiye? (This is because they have not been given the knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā. The Lord says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ . . . they will not accept that. And as far as householders are concerned, Arjuna was also a householder and a warrior. He was not any Vedantist or brahmin but Lord Kṛṣṇa explained this science to him. Arjuna was in the midst of a deadly battle for regaining his lost kingdom. At least, you will accept that his life was completely chaotic. But still he listened to Bhagavad-gītā and Lord Kṛṣṇa certified him as a devotee with the words bhaktosi priyosi me.

Wo to koi sadhu-sannyasi, vedantist, brahmana, ye sab to nahi the. Wo ladai ka pehle, wahi jo the grihastha, politician aur ksatriya, ladai karne wale aur Bhagavad-gītā sun karke wo to sab chodh-chadh ke sannyas to nahi liya. Wahi raha, wahi ksatriya raha, wahi ladai karne wala raha aur wahi politics me raha to phir bhakt kaise ban gaya, bataiye? Jisko Bhagavan khud certificate de rahe hai, bhaktosi priyosi me. Iska matlab yehi nikalta hai jo vastavik grihastha hote huye bhi, kis tarah se Bhagavan ka bhakta ho sakta hai, wo hum log jante nahi, na to lete hai. Bhagavad-gītā me sab bataya hai. Hum log chahte hai hum murkh banke rahe isliye ye mushkil hai. Caitanya Mahaprabhu kehte hai, jab Ramananda Raya se, unse baatcheet ho rahi thi, to Ramananda Raya the apka Madras ka governor aur jati me, karan jati jisko ki hum log kayastha kehte hai, koi brahmana wo bhi nahi. Aur Caitanya Mahaprabhu uttam brahmana ghar se aye the aur sannyasi, vidvan, sab chiz . . . wo unko puch rahe the jo Ramananda Raya batao kya chiz hai. Mane, Ramananda Raya ko guru ka post diya aur khud chatra ka post liya. To Ramananda Raya thoda sankoch bodh kar rahe the, "Hum to grihastha hai aur aisa koi uccha koti jaat me bhi hum paida nahi hai aur governor hai, politician, humko Prabhu puch rahe hai, ye thik nahi hota. Humko chahiye puchna, Prabhu se javab lena." Ye sankoch jab bodh kar raha tha, us samay Caitanya Mahaprabhu shant karne ke liye bataya," Why? He was not any mendicant, vedantist or brahmin. He was a householder, a warrior and a politician before the war but after listening to Bhagavad-gītā he did not renounce everything. He still remained the same warrior, politician and householder. Then, how come he became a devotee of the Supreme Lord who Himself certified Arjuna with the words, bhaktosi priyosi me. That means, we don't have the knowledge how even a proper householder can become the greatest devotee although it is nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Our problem is that we want to remain as fools forever. Ramananda Raya was the governor of Madras and belonged to the kāyastha community, not even a brahmin. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great scholar, renunciant and He was born in a high-class brahmin family, in spite of which He asked Ramananda Raya to instruct Him. That means He Himself took the position of a disciple and gave Ramananda Raya the position of a spiritual master. So Ramananda Raya was a little hesitant, "I am a householder, born in a low-class family and a politician so it is not proper for me to give instructions to the Lord. I should take instruction from Him instead." Then Caitanya Mahāprabhu pacified him by saying: "Look here, don't be hesitant."

Dekho ji tum sankoch na karo. Siddhant yehi hai, kibā śūdra, kibā vipra, nyāsī kene naya yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya." Ye Caitanya Mahaprabhu saf keh diya ki sannyasi hoye, chahe brahmana hoye, chahe shudra hoye, chahe grihastha hoye, jo kuch hoye, isse koi jata ata nahi. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. Jo Krishna-tattva ko samajhte hai, science of Krishna, wo guru hai. To Krishna science ko samajhna to koi mushkil nahi hai. Bhagavad-gītā me svayam Bhagavan apne vishay ko samjha rahe hai aur Arjun sun rahe hai aur unko certificate bhi diya Bhagavan, ki bhaktosi priyosi me. To uska agar hum log anusaran kare, anukaran nahi, anusaran. Ki kis tarah se Arjun Bhagavan se certificate le liya, bhaktosi priyosi, kis tarah se Bhagavan ka priya ho sakega, kis tarah se bhakta hone ka mauka milega, ye science malum hona chahiye. Wo science hum log nahi jante aur wo science maujud hai, Bhagavad-gītā. Usko hum log thik se padhte nahi na to acharan karte hai isliye mushkil hai. Nahi to bhakta banna, Bhagavan se sampark banana . . . (The principle is that kibā śūdra, kibā vipra, nyāsī kene naya yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya." Caitanya Mahāprabhu made this perfectly clear that it doesn't matter whether someone is a renunciant or a householder or born in a low-class family, high-class family etc. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei guru haya. One who knows the science of Kṛṣṇa can become a spiritual master. Knowing the science of Kṛṣṇa is not very difficult. In Bhagavad-gītā, the Supreme Lord is speaking about Himself and Arjuna is listening to Him. In the end, the Lord gave Arjuna the certificate, bhaktosi priyosi me. So, instead of imitating Him we should learn from Arjuna how he earned the certificate of a dear devotee of the Lord. This science is present in the Bhagavad-gītā but we are reluctant to understand it and behave accordingly. This is the difficulty. Otherwise to become a devotee and establish a relationship with the Lord . . . it does not depend on becoming a sannyāsī, gṛhastha or śūdra.)

Ye sab koi nahi. Shastra me batata hai kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. Bhagavan svayam batate hai, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye pi syuh papa yonayah. Grihastha ka baat chodh dijiye. Agar koi paap yoni bhi hai, wo agar Bhagavan ka ashray grahan karte hai thik thik, mam hi partha vyapasritya . . . te pi yanti param gatim. Usko para gati labh ho jata hai. Asal me hum log chodh diya. Bhagavan khud sikhane ko aye hai, wo shikshan hum log lete nahi isliye hum puzzled ho gaya. Ab Bhagavad-gītā ka shikshan lijiye, us prakar acharan kijiye. Usme koi bhed nahi hota brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, shudra aur grihastha, vanaprastha . . . nahi koi bhed nahi. (There is nothing like that. In the scriptures it is stated that kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ. The Lord Himself states that māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. Let alone householders, even the most sinful people can take complete shelter of God and . . . te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. They attain the supreme abode. Actually, we have left this process. The Lord came Himself to teach us this transcendental science but we don't accept it and consequently we get bewildered. Now take this knowledge of the Bhagavad-gītā and behave accordingly. There is no discrimination between brahmin, kṣatriya, śūdra, gṛhastha, vānaprastha or sannyāsa. You must know the science.)

Aj tak bhi hai, koi doctor banta, koi engineer banta, uska koi puchta nahi, "Aap kaun jaat hai?". Aap engineer hai, bas engineer hai. Usi prakar aap Krishna science ko samajh lijiye, aap chahe grihasth me rahiye ya sannyas, sab thik-thak. Wo science ko hum log lete nahi. Usme gadbad karte hai. Two plus two equal to four, usko nahi lete, two plus two equal to three koi bolta, koi bolta panch hota hai. Ye badmashi hai. Isi me kaam nahi ban pata. (Even today, if someone becomes a doctor or engineer then no one asks him about his caste. He is an engineer, that's it. Similarly, if you understand the science of Kṛṣṇa, then it doesn't matter whether you are a householder or a renunciant. We are reluctant to accept that science. Therein lies the problem. Two plus two is equal to four but we won't accept that. We will either say two plus two is equal to three or equal to five. This is rascaldom. This is why nothing fruitful happens. Two plus two is equal to four. If you take instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā, and if you apply it in your life, then you're perfect. Never mind whether you are gṛhastha or sannyāsa.)

Guest: Mai . . . (indistinct) . . . prarthana karunga . . . (I will . . . (indistinct) . . . pray . . .)

Prabhupāda: Rahiye udhar, rehne ka jagah bhi hai . . . (You can stay there. We have accommodation for . . .) (break)

Hari-śauri: So this is a . . . in the battle between the demigods and the demons.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: The verse was,

teṣāṁ padāghāta-rathāṇga-cūrṇitād

āyodhanād ulbaṇa utthitas tadā

reṇur diśaḥ khaṁ dyumaṇiṁ ca chādayan

nyavartatāsṛk-śrutibhiḥ pariplutāt

(SB 8.10.38)

"Because of the impact on the ground of the legs of the demons and demigods and the wheels of the chariots, particles of dust flew violently into the sky and made a dust cloud that covered all directions of outer space, as far as the sun. But when the particles of dust were followed by drops of blood being sprinkled all over space, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky."

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: Purport: "The cloud of dust covered the entire horizon, but when drops of blood sprayed up as far as the sun, the dust cloud could no longer float in the sky. A point to be observed here is that although the blood is stated to have reached the sun, it is not said to have reached the moon. Apparently, therefore, as stated elsewhere in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the sun, and not the moon, is the planet nearest the earth. We have already discussed this point in many places. The sun is first, then the moon, then Mars, Jupiter and so on. The sun is supposed to be 93,000,000 miles above the surface of the earth, and from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam we understand that the moon is 1,600,000 miles above the sun. Therefore the distance between the earth and the moon would be about 95,000,000 miles. So if a space capsule were traveling at the speed of 18,000 miles an hour, how could it reach the moon in four days? At that speed, going to the moon would take at least seven months. That a space capsule on a moon excursion has reached the moon in four days is therefore impossible." (laughs)

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) So my reason is all right?

Hari-śauri: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Modern scientist ke challenge kora, eta amar ekta . . . (To challenge modern scientists is one of my . . .)

Guest: . . . ki korche? Bhagavad-gītā te pradyuta gyan ache je planet e jawar chesta korche, ki hobe? Nijeder destruction . . . (what are they doing? In Bhagavad-gītā, it is asked, "What is the use of trying to visit other planets?" One's own destruction . . .)

Prabhupāda: Kichu to holo na. Chere diyeche. (Nothing was gained. They have given up. What about going to Mars? Finished.)

Hari-śauri: Yes. They don't put anything about it now.

Guest: Chande pa du teen gelo, kon dike? Eto boro chand, tar to ekta jaygay. Shudhu ekta konay jay . . . (Going two or three steps on the moon . . . such a big moon and they visited only a corner . . .)

Prabhupāda: Na, tao gelo kothay? Keo to jete pare na. (No, where did they go? No one can go like that. Grapes are sour. Full of sand.) Sand ta elo kotheke? Sand, jal na ele sand ashe na, nadir dhare sand ashe. Eshob katha keo question i kore na. Sand ta hoye samudra theke. Salt jeta ache na, sheta ekta process er dara sand e porinata hoye. Eta scientific. To sand jakhon holo takhon jal thakbe. Ar bolche jal nei. Mane ora kon khane jocchuri korche, sheta dhora pore jacche . . . (Where did the sand come from? Without water there is no possibility of sand, just like the river bank which is full of sand. Nobody asks these questions. Sand is formed from seawater. The salt is transformed into sand by a natural process. This is scientific. So when there is sand, there must be water but they are saying there is no water. This is exposing their fraudulent behavior . . .) (break)

Alex Kulik (devotee businessman from Laguna Beach): (describing plans for new San Diego temple) . . . thirty-six thousand students, so it's in a very, very nice area, just for the type of people we'd like to reach, you know, intelligent. And also it's a . . . actually, what it is, it's a motel that's had its, you know, it has no business there. It's surrounded by other more expensive . . .

Prabhupāda: So there is one building within the land?

Alex Kulik: No, it's like . . .

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Alex Kulik: Okay, here's a diagram here, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: This is the street right here, and you enter here, and there's buildings here, you know, for a restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: Right here. We're going to make a . . .

Prabhupāda: That is already there.

Alex Kulik: Yes. We're going to make an extension of Govinda's Restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: And here you have the offices, where you can make an apartment, and here we have thirty units, small, about the same size as the rooms upstairs . . .

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Alex Kulik: . . . which is good for, like, āśrama, you know.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Alex Kulik: It's not luxurious, it's just small rooms. And here we have a small swimming pool.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: It's not too big. And all these are fully grown trees with . . . there's some palm trees here. And then in the back . . .

Prabhupāda: Who cares for the trees are here.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, did you see the tree? Okay. In the back here, this is, we have fruit trees, different types of fruit trees like a . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, very, very good.

Alex Kulik: . . . pomegranate, you know, and some peaches and plums.

Prabhupāda: Pomegranate is a very nice fruit.

Alex Kulik: Yes. And this area right here is more or less empty and available for . . . these are small bushes here. These are small bushes. So we are proposing to construct a temple right about in here, then use the rest of the land for farming and growing flowers for Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are destroying these trees.

Alex Kulik: Well, see these trees, they're not real tall all the way, there's . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, this is green also.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, this is greenery around here, and occasionally there's a big tree, and then along the back here's . . .

Prabhupāda: Big trees are this side.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, exactly, and also in here around this area and around in here. And in the back here we have like a small desert garden with cactus and different things.

Prabhupāda: It is desert?

Alex Kulik: No, it's not a desert, but that's the way this rear portion has been landscaped, you know.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Alex Kulik: It's made to look like a desert, but it's actually very lush, and it looks a lot bigger than two acres.

Prabhupāda: Where things you cannot grow, you can keep cows. Eh?

Alex Kulik: I'm not sure if we can keep cows in there, because it's inside of the city, and sometimes they don't allow the cow within a certain zoning. And now the only problem we might run into with this is that it's not zoned right now for a church or a temple, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't say "temple."

Alex Kulik: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: You say "community project."

Alex Kulik: Community project?

Prabhupāda: Community project.

Alex Kulik: Oh, community project. Well . . .

Prabhupāda: Don't say church.

Alex Kulik: Okay. But the thing is if . . . the first thing that it can be rezoned for is a church and a temple.

Prabhupāda: There is no need of rezoning, because we are Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa community. So wherever we live, we worship Kṛṣṇa. It is not a public show; it is our own private worshiping Deity. I can keep Deity in my home, just like Christian deity, Mary, Jesus Christ, in the room. There is no objection.

Alex Kulik: I don't think there's any objection to that, but according to Guṇagrahi . . . see, they had a similar problem in San Diego, like the government there doesn't approve too much of them, and each time they try to buy a nice piece of land, you know, somehow or other . . .

Prabhupāda: That's why I say: "Don't call it temple."

Alex Kulik: Don't call it temple.

Prabhupāda: No. "Community project."

Alex Kulik: Community project.

Prabhupāda: Project. That's all.

Alex Kulik: Okay. I can tell them that. But he says . . .

Prabhupāda: We are just establishing a community project. But because we are Hare Kṛṣṇas, so wherever we live, we worship Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Don't say temple.

Alex Kulik: Don't say temple.

Prabhupāda: No.

Jagadīśa: A problem may come if they say: "But you invite people to come."

Prabhupāda: Friends I must invite, for feast. This is our community project.

Hari-śauri: Once you're in there, then it's . . . in Melbourne we told them that it's just strictly private—it was going to be like a monastery, there was just going to be a few monks who were going to do our worship, like that. And then when we were in, we just had the Sunday Feast and everything, and everything was fine.

Alex Kulik: Well, actually, the way . . .

Prabhupāda: Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret. That is that if the other is cheat, you become cheat. Why you should be honest? Śaṭhe śāthyaṁ samācaret.

Alex Kulik: Well, in this case, actually I don't think there will even be a problem if we said temple. Because . . .

Prabhupāda: That is your . . . I say: "Don't declare it a temple." It is our community, living quarters, residence, that's all. We live like this; our style of living is this. How you can . . .?

Indian guest: Just like the usual person was doing something at home.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't say it is temple. That's all. (chuckles) Kill law by law. (Aine phaki . . . (Bypassing the law . . .) and safest position is that you don't say it is a temple.

Alex Kulik: Well actually we're not coming on to them like we are, you know, Hare Kṛṣṇas or anything like that. We are going in karmī clothes.

Prabhupāda: No, no, there are many communities, gṛhastha, in our Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. We don't say . . .

Alex Kulik: According to the escrow we say that we want to build like some sort of a church. Now in the zoning laws for that particular area . . . now if you want to rezone, the only thing that's allowed to rezone for is for churches and temples. They have it written.

Prabhupāda: You can take help from Detroit. He knows very well. That was rezoned. You did it.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows everything. That was a residential quarter. Now we have made it a temple.

Alex Kulik: So we . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the process?

Jagadīśa: Well, we had . . . because we were dealing with Ford, the grandson of Henry Ford, because he was wealthy, he had a lawyer friend who had a connection in the zoning board, so . . .

Prabhupāda: Influence.

Jagadīśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But what was the law point? You cannot influence by . . .

Jagadīśa: No, we . . . the point was that that particular property was secluded. By making it a multi-residential dwelling with a public worship facility there was no inconvenience to the neighbors. That was the main thing. We went around to all the neighbors in the neighborhood. We got them to sign a petition saying they had no objection to our holding meetings there and having multi-residential, and that was our strongest . . . besides our connection with this lawyer, having the neighborhood support was our strongest weapon. And the neighbors all were very warm.

Prabhupāda: The black people, they are simple. They are not so . . . (indistinct) . . . if they are satisfied . . .

Jagadīśa: We gave them prasādam and a little chanting, and they were satisfied.

Alex Kulik: Actually the neighbors around here, all along here are businesses on either side.

Prabhupāda: Then they'll suffer?

Alex Kulik: Then there's no . . . actually, even if we ask for rezoning, they cannot refuse us because according to their laws the only thing that this particular land can be rezoned for, number one on the list, is churches and temples. But . . .

Prabhupāda: No, you do it, but if there is doubt you can say: "No temple."

Alex Kulik: Right, right.

Prabhupāda: Don't take the name of a temple.

Alex Kulik: Right. This is a minor problem in this case. It used to be a major, but it's minor now.

Prabhupāda: Community project. That's all. We are Hare Kṛṣṇa community; it is our project. We live together, that's all.

Alex Kulik: Jaya. Well, I'll pass that along to Guṇagrahi.

Prabhupāda: I think I went to San Diego.

Alex Kulik: Yes, about two years ago.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So . . .

Alex Kulik: You see . . .

Prabhupāda: There is a big park, San Diego.

Alex Kulik: Balboa Park. You had one lecture there.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. So how far it is from the park?

Alex Kulik: About ten or fifteen miles. You see it is more in, away from the ocean, and it's located right in the middle of this college community where most of the residents are students of the university, and the university has 36,000 . . .

Prabhupāda: So you can get the chance of attracting students.

Alex Kulik: Oh, yes, yes, of course. This is . . . a main thing there of the location is in being around the student community.

Prabhupāda: San Diego seaside, I went. There are so many swimming clubs.

Alex Kulik: In La Jolla?

Prabhupāda: The underneath, under, within water they're swimming.

Alex Kulik: Skin-diving, underneath the water.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian guest: Jayga tar naam ki? (What is the name of that place?)

Prabhupāda: San Diego.

Indian guest: San Diego . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Jagadīśa: It's in California. San Diego, California.

Prabhupāda: No, what's . . .

Alex Kulik: See, at the present moment the San Diego temple, they used to have two buildings, and they have been more or less evicted from the main building and they had to move the Deities to the residential quarters, and they had to move all the brahmacārīnis out to another building.

Prabhupāda: Oh, they have left that building?

Alex Kulik: Yeah, they left that building, the main building, and now the Deities are in the one over, the, which used to be the residential quarters, and it's just in a small room and it's very . . .

Prabhupāda: Inconvenient.

Alex Kulik: Very inconvenient.

Prabhupāda: So start this temple.

Alex Kulik: So this is in escrow now. It's already started. And it will take ninety days, and it all depends on the rezoning.

Jagadīśa: The zoning has been applied for?

Alex Kulik: Yes, it's been applied for, and the chances of them refusing us is very slim.

Jagadīśa: When is their next meeting?

Alex Kulik: I really couldn't say. I don't know, but it will be soon. There's one boy who's working on it. I forgot what his name is. I have a bad memory for names. But anyways, I and some friends of mine would like to construct a temple right here.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Alex Kulik: Right there, just . . .

Prabhupāda: Do, according to your choice.

Alex Kulik: And we were thinking about a design like a large dome.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: You know, and then on each corner, kind of like . . . what do you call those?

Jagadīśa: Cornice?

Alex Kulik: You know, with a little thing. And then right in the middle of the dome, we want to put like a big gold—not real gold, but you know, gold-colored—thing with flags.

Prabhupāda: Flags.

Alex Kulik: Put flags on the top. Right. Exactly. This was our initial idea.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you make a temple like this? You see?

Devotees: (indistinct) . . . attractive point.

Prabhupāda: But then you cannot deny that it is not a temple.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, that's true. Actually . . .

Prabhupāda: Best thing is this type temple.

Alex Kulik: Like here. With three domes. Well, see, it all depends on the cost. I have some cost estimates here that . . . we figured out it's somewhere between thirty and forty dollars per square foot to build.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: Now if we build a temple that's 6,500 square feet, which is quite a large size, that would come out to $260,000, and on down to 3,600 square feet, which would be about $144,000. I've collected about $100,000 on my own, and I have another person who promised somewhere between fifteen and twenty-five. And by the time that three or four months is up . . . actually, we couldn't build until about six or seven months anyways, so by this time . . .

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will give. Don't worry, He will give money.

Alex Kulik: Also another thing, this is . . . you may remember when you were in Los Angeles last time, Kṛṣṇa-kāntī and Mangalānanda asked you if they could do this contemporary-style music with Kṛṣṇa lyrics. So this is the very first copy. Actually, there's not much to see, it's just like any other album. This is the first test pressing.

Hari-śauri: He has a cassette which you can listen to sometime if you want.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I can listen. Play it.

Alex Kulik: You would like to hear something?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Hari-śauri: It's done to like modern, popular music.

Prabhupāda: Mmm.

Hari-śauri: With the lyrics about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you keep one record player?

Hari-śauri: Well, record players are a bit bulky to carry. They have it on cassette.

Prabhupāda: No, this time anyone comes, ask them to bring one record player. Japanese record player is very cheap.

Alex Kulik: Yeah, I think that's a good idea to have, because all these albums are coming out now.

Hari-śauri: But you can get them all on cassette The problem is . . .

Prabhupāda: Between fifteen dollars, sixteen dollars.

Hari-śauri: . . . we can't carry it all. We've got so much baggage we couldn't possibly carry all . . .

Alex Kulik: Actually, cassette is more practical.

Hari-śauri: These cassettes we can get. We can have everything on cassette.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Alex Kulik: Okay, this is . . . actually, they're probably sent by . . . (indistinct) . . . this is quite nice, too. ("Change of Heart" starts to play) -

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct discussion in background) Now if this album is played . . . (indistinct) (break) Yes.

Hari-śauri: This is a small swimming pool and palm trees. (background discussion)

Prabhupāda: Kya prasad khilaya tha? (What prasādam did they give?)

Guest: Halwa, puri, shak, do tarah ki mithai thi aur pehle samosa aur wo sab chize khub bata tha, khub karke. (Halwa, puri, shak—two varieties of sweets and samosa in the beginning . . . they distributed in large quantity.)

Prabhupāda: Tab to accha tha. (Then it's fine.)

Guest: Aur phir itna prasad, jitne devotees reh gaye the, le aye the sab ke liye. (Then they brought the leftover prasād for those devotees who had not taken yet.)

Prabhupāda: Accha. (Okay.) The epidemic is not going to stop.(laughs)

Alex Kulik: No. Prabhupāda, I've been given a cow, in America.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Alex Kulik: This Yamunā, Yamunā-devi?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: One of her cows, Premadhana. She's given it to us. We've had it now for five or six months, and we have built a nice area for her. We have ten acres of land for her to roam around on. She's very happy, very happy.

Prabhupāda: So take your country in your hand, Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then surely we shall get the government. This is the prediction of a politician: "Kṛṣṇa conscious, the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading like epidemic. That I'm afraid within ten years they'll get the government."

Alex Kulik: I know.

Prabhupāda: If the young men joins—immediately.

Hari-śauri: If they find out that that's our actual plan they will . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you should not be? It must have. Hare Kṛṣṇa party. They have got Democratic Party, Republican Party—another party, Hare Kṛṣṇas. Bās.

Alex Kulik: Prasādam party.

Prabhupāda: No, Hare Kṛṣṇas. That will be nice. At least they will criticize Hare Kṛṣṇa and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) That's all. We want helāya śraddhā. It is said that, helāya śraddhā. If we respect chanting, it is very good; even by neglecting chant, that is also good. Just like Ajāmila, he chanted. He never meant "Nārāyaṇa." He meant his son, but he got result. Ante nārāyaṇa smṛtiḥ (SB 2.1.6). He never meant that he's calling for Nārāyaṇa. He did not follow up bhakti. But Nārāyaṇa took care of it that, "Now anyway he's chanting 'Nārāyaṇa.' He must come to Vaikuṇṭha."

Alex Kulik: This is what . . . (indistinct) . . . in San Diego.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Sixth Canto. Hmm?

Jagadīśa: I think that's Sixth. (devotees discuss whether Fifth or Sixth)

Prabhupāda: First verse.

Devotee: (enters) . . . (indistinct) . . . retired inspector of the schools, wants to do translation, Hindi. He wants to stay here. He wants to be . . .

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Devotee: He has come.

Prabhupāda: Hah?

Devotee: There is one gentleman, Mr. Saxena. He is retired inspector of schools from Rajasthan.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has come?

Devotee: Yes, shall I call him?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: He wrote me a letter. He met one of our traveling parties in India, and he heard that I was here, and he was interested to . . . in our educational program. So I invited him to come here, perhaps to teach Hindi, and so he's here.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Alex Kulik: Prabhupāda, this is some honey; this is from my wife. And this is from Viśakha, Yadubara's wife, from Los Angeles. She asked us to . . . (indistinct) . . . and this is from all the devotees in San Diego. This is ghee.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Indian guest: Cow ghee?

Alex Kulik: Yes. They heard that you were in need of some ghee, so they have . . .

Prabhupāda: Anyway . . .

Alex Kulik: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Nice.

(pause)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Boliye Saxena ji. Aapko udhar bhi dekha. (So Mr. Saxena, I think I saw you there.)

Mr. Saxena: . . . function.

Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Baithiye. Abhi kidhar rehte hai? (Please sit. So where are you staying nowadays?)

Mr. Saxena: Abhi to Bharatpur se aya hu mai . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaipur . . . (indistinct) . . . Bharatpur me mera ek ladka doctor hai, (Right now I am coming from Bharatpur . . . (indistinct) . . . Jaipur . . . (indistinct) . . . my son is a doctor in Bharatpur, an eye specialist. He's in charge of the eye department.) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu: you cannot teach others if you are not fixed also. Otherwise it will be useless. It is useless. Āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikāimu. If you are fixed up in principles, then you can teach others that principle. That will be effective. If you smoke, and if you tell others that "Don't smoke," that is useless. That is useless. (break) . . . first of all give up this habits, bad habits, then you can teach, it will be effective.

Mr. Saxena: Purity of life.

Prabhupāda: (aside) You can prepare little that dāliya, that's all.

Bhagatji: Daliya khayenge? (Will you take a little daliya?)

Prabhupāda: Thoda sa. (Very little.) Unfortunately, they do not try to understand the science of Kṛṣṇa.

Mr. Saxena: Vidhi. Vidhi jitna malum ho . . . (Process. The process should be known . . .)

Prabhupāda: Vidhi, nahi. (No, not just the process.) One must know . . . vidhi, that practical and theoretical. So vidhi, mostly theoretical, and when you practice it, it is jñāna, vijñāna. Jñāna, vijñāna. So jñāna means theoretical knowledge, and vijñāna means practical application.

Mr. Saxena: Is religion a practical knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Religion means . . . that I was discussing. Religion means the law given by God. That is religion. They do not know it. They do not know what is God, they do not know what is the words, or order, of God. Whole world is like that. They profess some religion, but religion means the law of God. But if they do not know what is God, then how he'll understand the law of God? That means there is no religion. All cheating. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo (SB 1.1.2). The Bhāgavata rejects all kinds of so-called religious system, accusing that they're all cheating. Cheating, all cheating. If you do not know God, what is the meaning of their religion? It is simply cheating. If you have accepted a style of religion without any understanding of God, then it is simply you have been cheated. And that is going on.

Mr. Saxena: Everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Ye dharma, wo dharma, wo dharma . . . aap usko puchiye jo dharma kya hai, God kya hai, wo bol nahi sakega. To phir uska kya matlab? (This religion, that religion . . . you ask someone what is religion, what is God . . . they will not be able to tell you. Then what is the use of that?)

Mr. Saxena: I have been to all these four corners of India—Badarikāśrama, Rāmeśvaram, Jagannātha Purī and Bet Dvārakā—and I have seen so many what they say, Viśvaguru Śaṅkarācārya, he's in Purī Śaṅkarācārya, and . . . ashrama me hai na, isme Lakshman Jhula me hai, Svargashram . . . (there is this monastery, in Lakshman Jhula, Svargashram. Then there is Paratmaniketan.) Paramanandi hai waha ke, Mahamandaleshwar hai . . . (There are the Paramanadis, Mahamandaleshwar . . .) and about 800 rooms in that Paratmaniketan.

Prabhupāda: Eight hundred?

Mr. Saxena: Eight hundred rooms. Very big temple, and the daily income is about more than 1500 rupees per day, donation. I stayed there for three months. His speech is at nights, their sannyāsīs. But if you see there practical life, awful. You realize all this tīrthas, what you call? They are no more tīrthas now. All in most case I use that word shopping centers, what we call. I have been to the Sivananda Ashram. Some Cidanandajī is there. Sivanandajī is no more. When I went to Yoganiketan, there is one Yogesvarananda . . .

Prabhupāda: Cidananda.

Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Saxena: He is a disciple of Swami Sivananda, Divine Life Society.

Prabhupāda: He is dead now?

Mr. Saxena: No, Sivananda is dead.

Prabhupāda: Not.

Mr. Saxena: Cidananda is the in-charge of that institute, Divine Life Society. There is another, Yogesvarananda. There is Yoganiketan trust. They are having three years' course for regular yoga. And there is some . . . (indistinct) . . . Mahesh Yogi, Transcendental Meditation . . . (indistinct) . . . samādhi. I lived there for fifteen days, tried to get something out of that. Everywhere I found there is no . . . we are after peace. There is no peace there.

Alex Kulik: Prabhupāda, you say that religion is the law of God. So that means there can only be one religion.

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is one . . . (indistinct) . . . for everyone. Yes.

Alex Kulik: So all others are just contaminated.

Prabhupāda: No, if they follow the rules, God, God said that "You just surrender unto Me."

Alex Kulik: So natural laws.

Prabhupāda: This is the religion. God says that, "You surrender unto Me." This is religion. So if one does not know what is God and where to surrender, then where is religion? Is it wrong for God to say that "You surrender unto Me"? Can you say like that?

Mr. Saxena: How? How can you say?

Prabhupāda: If God is the supreme, He has the right to say like that.

Mr. Saxena: Of course. Of course.

Prabhupāda: Just as the government can say that, "Must obey." So if the government can say this, the head of the supreme government, if He says that "You surrender," what is wrong there?

Mr. Saxena: Nothing wrong.

Prabhupāda: And that is clear. Simple—two words. Unfortunately, they want to deny God. They take the place of God, all these Māyāvādīs. Ānandam, mostly. So that is rascaldom. How you can take the position of God?

Mr. Saxena: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But they want to take the position of God. "Everyone is God. I am God, you are God." This is they are claiming.

Mr. Saxena: Bhagavan Rajneesh.

Prabhupāda: So many rascals. Why Rajneesh? There are many other.

Mr. Saxena: There are others, Satya Sai Baba, and so many others.

Prabhupāda: This is going on. What? People also do not ask, that "How you become God?" That's also so foolish. They accept any rascal as God. That Rajneesh, what he is? He advertises "Bhagavān," and there are many rascals, they accept him. What he has done? Yehi sab mislead karte hai. (These are the people who are misleading.)

Mr. Saxena: How to stop it, then?

Prabhupāda: Stop, but unless you are intelligent, how it can be stopped? If the people are not intelligent, the cheaters will cheat. It is very . . .

Mr. Saxena: But Swāmījī, mostly educated persons, Ph.D, D.Litt., M.A., postgraduates, they are the followers of this.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā (BG 7.15). They are supposed to be very learned, but actually they're fools, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. These so-called educated, they are bereft of knowledge. They have no common sense. That I was asking this debauch, as God. That also ignorance. He does not know what is God.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, because education is no education now.

Prabhupāda: He does not know. We have got the definition of God:

aiśvaryasya samāgrasya

vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ

jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva

ṣaṇṇaṁ itiṅgaṇa bhāga

(Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)

Aiśvaryasya samāgrasya, that one who is in possession of all the wealth; vīryasya, all strength; all faith, yaśasaḥ; all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation, that is God. Now so far Kṛṣṇa is concerned, He showed all these things. Aiśvaryasya . . . for example, Kṛṣṇa married 16,000 wives, and for each wife a different palace. And for each wife, ten sons. Woman requires very nice accommodation, sons, husband. That is their ambition that He fulfilled, although He married 16,108 wives. This is aiśvaryasya samāgrasya vīryasya. This so-called rascal Bhagavān, who has shown this? Why shall I accept this cheap God? Show me something that you are God. Seven-years-old Kṛṣṇa, He lifted the Govardhana hill. Isko panch man ka . . . (He can't lift a 5 tonne . . .)

Mr. Saxena: Patthar . . . rock . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . koi utha sakega. Ye gadhe log ko kyu Bhagavan mante hai, ye mere ko ye . . . wo to janta hi nahi Bhagavan kya hai. Mayapahrta-jnana. Murkh hai . . . (indistinct) . . . Bhagavan ka . . . (nobody can lift. Why do people accept these donkeys as God? This is something that . . . they have no idea what God is. Māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. They are foolish . . . (indistinct) . . . about God . . .) idea there is, but they have no knowledge to compare with the idea of God. So far knowledge is concerned, Bhagavad-gītā, left by Kṛṣṇa, it is adored all over the world. Especially nowadays we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, and millions of copies we are selling. Now we are advertising . . . where is that picture? Million, 1.5 million.

Alex Kulik: 1.5 million copies.

Prabhupāda: . . . 1.5 million, the Kṛṣṇa book we have sold.

Jagadīśa: Kṛṣṇa book is taken from the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, summary study.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, up to date since 1970, we have sold 1.5 million.

Alex Kulik: And every day we sell more.

Prabhupāda: Hah, yes. All these Kṛṣṇa consciousness books, we are selling daily five to six lakhs of rupees. All over the world. I have estimate. That religious book . . . naam sunne se hi, are nahi sir, religious book. Aur philosophy class to sab bam-bhola hai . . . (as soon as they hear that it is a religious book, they run away. And in philosophy class, they are completely absent-minded. It is full of religion and philosophy, still they are selling.)

Mr. Saxena: That is an achievement.

Prabhupāda: We have got, not only in West . . . outside India—in India we have got standing order from all universities, libraries and many other places. Complete standing order value is 40,000 rupees.

Mr. Saxena: This is one aspect, of course, appreciable, but another aspect is that of teaching. That should be . . .

Prabhupāda: Teaching is going on.

Mr. Saxena: I mean for teaching, too. As far as books . . .

Prabhupāda: Several centers, hundred centers.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, there should be centers too, could give right interpretation to all these things. Because interpretation means . . . everybody is not in contact with Sanskrit.

Jagadīśa: But in the books Śrīla Prabhupāda has given elaborate purports.

Prabhupāda: Word-to-word meaning. You have seen our books?

Mr. Saxena: I have not seen this.

Prabhupāda: Show him. Now it is already there in the book. This is Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.

Mr. Saxena: Now you prepare us to go out.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Mr. Saxena: He prepares to give us some inspirational power so that we may go out and teach all these things to those persons. First we should be able enough.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: (showing book) Sanskrit, English transliteration, word for word.

Mr. Saxena: I see.

Jagadīśa: Translation and purport, so anyone who doesn't know Bhagavad-gītā can read. "Bhagavad-gītā is the widely read theistic science . . ."

Mr. Saxena: Thank you, thank you, thank you. We must have also this missionary spirit.

Bhagatji: Kuch aur khayenge, sivay daliya ke? (Will you eat something else, like sivay of daliya?)

Prabhupāda: Bas thik hai. Samosa le aye, samosa? (No that's alright. Have you brought a samosa?)

Bhagatji: Samosa to nahi laye. (Samosa is not there.) (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Tab? (Then?)

Bhagatji: Laun waha se? (Shall I bring from there?)

Prabhupāda: Kaha se? (From where?)

Bhagatji: Dukaan se. (From the shop.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi. (No.)

Bhagatji: Bana le? Kuch namkeen banaye? (Shall I make it then? Shall I make something salty?)

Mr. Saxena: So I am at your disposal now.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You give him one single room. So we have given word-to-word meaning, translation, purport. This book also we are selling, millions.

Mr. Saxena: I see.

Prabhupāda: We have published the small book and big book, eighty-four.

Mr. Saxena: Eighty-four. In that film I saw that how those foreigners, they are working in the press and preparing all those books and sending abroad. I have seen that film. The only request is this, that you once make us away from this saṁśaya. Saṁśayātmā vinaśyati. There should be no saṁśaya, and we people who are . . .

Prabhupāda: If you increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa, then it will automatically. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). There is a verse of Rūpa Gosvāmī that one gopī is warning another gopī that:

smerāṁ bhaṅgī traya-paricitāṁ sāci-vistīrṇa-dṛṣṭiṁ

vaṁśīnyastādhara-kiśalayāmujjvalāṁ candrakeṇa

govindākhyāṁ haritanumitaḥ keśitīrtho 'pakaṇṭhe

mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava sakhe yadi 'sti raṅgaḥ bandhu-saṅge

(CC Adi 5.224)

"There is govindākhyāṁ haritanum, standing in keśitīrtho 'pakaṇṭhe, with flute and smiling, and with the moonshine it has become . . . he has become very, very bright. So, but don't see, don't see." "Why?" "Provided you have the desire no more your association with so-called society, friends. If you have got desire to enjoy society, friendship and love of this world, then don't see." The purport is that anyone who sees Kṛṣṇa actually, he loses interest in this. So therefore we must increase our interest in Kṛṣṇa, then automatically . . .

Mr. Saxena: Log kehte hai na, wo ras mil gaya to sab ras phika padh jata hai. (There is this popular saying that once you start getting the higher taste, then all other lower tastes become insignificant.)

Prabhupāda: Mā prekṣiṣṭhāstava yadi sakhe bandhu-saṅge 'sti raṅgaḥ. If you want to enjoy the company of your society, friendship and love, then don't see. It will be finished. For this reason they are now bringing charges against us that we are spoiling these young men by brainwash. There is great opposition in the United States to our movement, that we are spoiling these young men by giving some speculation, controlling over their mind, and simply injecting some ideas in their brain—brainwash.

Mr. Saxena: Kabir ne ek doha likha hai, "Kabira, man to ek hai, bhaume jaha lagaye, bhaume Hari ki bhakti kar, bhaume vishay kamaye" Man to ek hai na, sansar me lag gaya to usme kaise lagega. To yehi ek hai, hum ko udhar se divert karna hai. (Kabir has written one couplet saying that we have only one mind with which we can either remember Lord Hari or remember material things. So we have to divert our mind from the material world.)

Prabhupāda: Baki . . . (Then . . .) whose verse is this, "Patthar pujke hari mile, to mai puje pahar." ("If by worshiping a stone one can get Lord Hari then I will worship a mountain." Is it this?)

Mr. Saxena: Kabir? Patthar puje Hari mile, mai puju pahar . . . (indistinct) . . . (By worshiping a stone, one gets Lord Hari, so I will worship a mountain . . . (indistinct) . . .) other couplets. Rest of it . . .

Prabhupāda: Who said this?

Mr. Saxena: I don't remember.

Prabhupāda: Then it is a very popular phrase.

Mr. Saxena: Patthar puje Hari mile . . . (By worshiping a stone one gets Lord Hari . . .)

Prabhupāda: To mai puje pahar. (Then I will worship a mountain.)

Mr. Saxena: Phir uska dusra couplet aur hai shayad kuch. (There must be some other lines in this.)

Prabhupāda: Ha aur hai. (Yes there are other lines.)

Mr. Saxena: Usme usne kuch reflect kiya hai. (So the author must have reflected upon something in those lines.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi. (No.) The thing is anyone who may accept, that means he did not believe in the Deity worship. That is a fact. So how a real devotee can condemn Deity worship?

Mr. Saxena: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Nārakī-buddhi. This has been described, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti buddhir (Padma Purāṇa). Nārakī-buddhi.

Mr. Saxena: Nārakī.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Mr. Saxena: I think now you require rest. I hope I've not strained . . .

Devotee: Very very required.

Mr. Saxena: (indistinct) . . . unjustice to put into so much strain during your rest hours. Thank you Swamiji. I will know the timetable?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: I will give you.

Mr. Saxena: Yes, you will give me. So I'll keep this one for my room.

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot keep. This is a sample.

Mr. Saxena: Acchā.

Prabhupāda: Pictures you can get, not . . .

Mr. Saxena: Ah yes, yes, it makes no difference. Your preachings are more than pictures.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Jaya . . . (indistinct)

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've been considering . . . you told me to think about ways to . . . (break) (end)