761226 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

761226R2-BOMBAY - December 26, 1976 - 66.52 Minutes

Prabhupāda: He's taken so much labor. Through English?

Hari-śauri: Romanized devanāgarī. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . books, but they are not selling with . . . where is my spectacle?

Hari-śauri: No, there's hundreds and millions of books in India, all . . . so many, and no one buys them. (Prabhupāda laughs)

(long pause)

Hari-śauri: The man's not very intelligent. He's showing a diagram here showing how the languages evolved through the ages. So he's put that the original language was spoken in Stonehenge, and he shows a man wearing a bearskin. (laughs) (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . some central point of unity. But the disunity is increasing.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And the real platform of unity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our members, although they speak different languages from different countries, but still they are united.

Hari-śauri: Purpose is the same.

Prabhupāda: Language does not make united. This Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. They write Bengali. But why they are separate? America and England, they speak the same language. Why Washington declared independence? Australia, they have also declared independence from England, just a piece of land. So there cannot be unity on any platform unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is it not?

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only thing that encompasses everything.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is false idea that by language, linguistic unity, there will be unity. There are so many different examples. Pakistan, they speak Hindi also. Yes, they speak Hindi. And why there is separation? Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. Why they are separated from West Bengal? The linguistic unity is not . . . any material platform, there cannot be unity. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). (break)

Hari-śauri: It's the white one. It's on my bed. (break)

Devotee: Hari-śauri is asking if you can take . . . (break)

Jagadīśa: Well, that doesn't mean I can. (indistinct background conversation between devotees—tape static) (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrī Bhaktivedanta Swami, who represents . . . (break)

Indian lady: In our schools and college . . .

Prabhupāda: Ati chalaker golay dori. (Over intelligent people are the ones who get hanged.) She'll understand Bengali. Ati chalaker golay dori. (Over intelligent people are the ones who get hanged.) That explains. Jo zyada chalak hai, usko phasi me chadhata hai. (Over intelligent people are the ones who get hanged.)

Indian lady: Why don't they teach this in our schools and colleges?

Prabhupāda: Because they won't take it. They'll take this unauthorized interpretation.

Indian lady: I remember, I come from Sindh, and before Partition we were taught all these religious books in our schools. But now . . .

Prabhupāda: Simply reading will not do. You have to learn from the right person.

Indian lady: By reading, reading, we learn.

Prabhupāda: No, if you read as it is, then you will be benefited. But if you read these rubbish commentaries, then . . . (speaks to another man) You inquired about that land? He wants to avoid the land.

Karttikeya Mahadevia: We have met the court, and the land is still available. Depends on your convenience at how things go.

Girirāja: Yes, we'll take a look at it.

Devotee: When can we go?

Girirāja: Tuesday?

Karttikeya: Or Wednesday would be even better.

Devotee: Morning?

Karttikeya: We can pick him up or meet him there. (devotees talk briefly with Indians) Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is another request from Mrs. . . . (indistinct) . . . and she would like to invite you and other devotees to show the film and other things, and they can arrange a good . . . (indistinct) . . . over there . . . (indistinct) . . . about three years. And they have got a very good school over there. So anytime can be given within this or after going to Kumbha-melā?

Prabhupāda: After, it would be . . . (indistinct)

Karttikeya: During the 7th of January or . . .

Prabhupāda: I may be going away by the 3lst, and there visit the Kumbha-melā. (everyone talking at once, discussing dates)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Devotees will be going there, starting from the 5th, by installments.

Karttikeya: We can keep it after 20th, after 20th of January, when the Kumbha-melā celebrations are over.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kumbha-melā will be over . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the 24th, I thought.

Karttikeya: Twenty-fourth, last weekend.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our only request is that you read Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You'll be benefited. And if you interpret whimsically, then you'll rot, spoil. There is no benefit by eating spoiled foodstuff. Kṛṣṇa says . . . (guest enters) Jaya. Jaya. Prasāda, give.

Indian lady: . . . come and . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, you are welcome always. Whenever you find time. Tomake to koto bar bollam je eita niye bhalo kore . . . (indistinct) . . . tomar yogyata ache. Kintu oi jinish ta as it is nite hobe. Janle tomaro upakar, jaderke bolbe tadero upakar hobe. (I told you so many times to accept this and practice nicely . . . (indistinct) . . . you have the qualification. But you have to accept it as it is. Then it will be useful for you as well as for those to whom you preach.) Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). This is Caitanya. First of all, make your life successful. That successful means yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128), to understand Kṛṣṇa thoroughly. Then you become guru. When you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are janma sārthaka. And then you can speak para-upakāra. Otherwise, it is not possible. Without Kṛṣṇa tattva-jñāna, if we become leader, that will not take. Yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya. What is that?

Devotee: I got a different vase.

Prabhupāda: This is spoiled. Oh. Another.

Devotee: This is a different.

Indian lady: But through chanting also you get . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the easiest process. Now the previous . . . dab jal (. . . coconut water) was spoiled and it was not clear. So it is spoiled. But now it is clear, it is nice. Not clear means something added.

Indian lady: Adulterated.

Prabhupāda: Something adulteration. Adulterated things are not good. Pure thing, that is good. Why do they not accept? Let us discuss something. Why these people interpret? What is the reason to spoil it?

Indian lady: To gain the leadership?

Prabhupāda: But with that leadership, if you cheat others, does it mean leadership?

Indian lady: Or importance. Or the ego, which they, "I have got so many followers. Whether I'm wrong or right, everyone thinks I'm right."

Prabhupāda: So what is the meaning of these followers who are all . . .? What is called? Just like sometimes the . . . what is called? You take so many lambs, what is that called?

Devotee: Shepherd?

Prabhupāda: Shepherd. Yes. The shepherd has many followers. But does it mean any meaning?

Indian lady: We are the sheep. Without any understanding we blindly follow. The public, I mean.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that does not mean that that man is very important, the shepherd, because you follow. What is the meaning of . . .

Indian lady: But the sheep has no sense of herd. What poor sheep can do?

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Because thousands of sheep following one shepherd, does it mean the shepherd is an important man?

Indian lady: One sheep thinks that, "So many sheeps are following, with me . . ."

Prabhupāda: That's all right. I say the shepherd is an important man because there is . . .?

Indian lady: No, not that. No, no.

Prabhupāda: No. Then why you take that? That is explained the Bhāgavatam, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The shepherd may be followed by so many sheep, but that does not mean he's an important man. That is the . . . that is the, going on. The so-called leaders, they are just like shepherd, and we are like sheep. But that does not mean the shepherd is an important man.

Kārttikeya: Then what is alternative of that? Can we not change? Suppose I am a sheep . . .

Prabhupāda: You can change immediately. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). You can change immediately, within a second.

Karttikeya: Within a second.

Prabhupāda: But because you are sheeps, you'll not do.

Indian lady: But we'll change only when there is a gurukṛpā.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says . . . you are taking Bhagavad-gītā, the leader is taking Bhagavad-gītā, and he's speaking nonsense. So we are human beings; we should know what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). The paramparā—whether he's speaking paramparā or he's speaking whimsically, that much sense we must have. Otherwise, I am the same sheep. Then why you are speaking which is not in the paramparā? At least you should be . . . now this movement is started because on this principle, that why these rascals are speaking not in the paramparā? That is my seed of starting this movement. I must start the movement. That is the impetus of this movement, that they must speak according to the paramparā. And someone allowed them to speak otherwise. Therefore I wrote this book, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Don't make interpretations. And by the grace of Kṛṣṇa it has become to some extent successful. That is the impetus. Why they should talk nonsense? It is clear that evaṁ paramparā prāptam (BG 4.2). Paramparā means . . . that is also explained.

imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ

proktavān aham avyayam

vivasvān manave prāha

manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt

(BG 4.1)

So if that paramparā is lost, now you take the next paramparā, as Kṛṣṇa says, and speak that purātana-yoga. (aside) Find out this: sa evāyam . . . yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ evāyaṁ te.

Pradyumna:

sa evāyaṁ mayā te 'dya

yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ

bhakto 'si me sakhā ceti

rahasyaṁ hy etad uttamam

(BG 4.3)

Prabhupāda: "I'm just talking to you the same old yoga system." There is no change. Purātana. Why they make new interpretation? Kṛṣṇa is saying the purātana, and these people are presenting new interpretation of Bhagavad-gītā. Just see. How much misuse has been done, try to understand. No effect.

Indian lady: I'm asking a question, how to stop this which is going on only if we chant God's name, this poor activity . . .?

Prabhupāda: This is also chanting. If you speak Bhagavad-gītā as it is, this is also chanting.

Indian lady: Preach to everybody as it is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Present Bhagavad-gītā as it is.

Indian lady: You must know what is in Gītā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian lady: Then nobody can fool you. And you know in our so-called Guru Baba's speeches, without gurukṛpā you can't get anything. They want to enter . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all we . . .

Indian lady: Without gurukṛpā we can't get. You can't achieve the goal.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you have to ask whether are you guru.

Indian lady: That sense you must have. You must know what is what.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You are not guru, you are goru.

Indian lady: Goru?

Prabhupāda: Goru means cow. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. (laughter) You are not guru. You are speaking against Kṛṣṇa, so you are not guru. Guru is Arjuna. Because a confidential instruction is given to Arjuna, so we accept Arjuna as guru. Or one who is following Arjuna, he is guru. Arjuna has accepted Kṛṣṇa, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). You accept Kṛṣṇa as Paraṁbrahma. You want to become Paraṁbrahma. You are cheating people. You do not say Kṛṣṇa is Paraṁbrahma, but you are replacing Him. Then you are cheater, you are not guru. That has to be done. So organize this. Very plain thing. Very plain thing. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu did. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bās. You become guru.

Indian lady: He said wherever you go, you say Kṛṣṇa's kathā. That is your duty.

Prabhupāda: You become guru.

āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa

yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa

(CC Madhya 7.128)

(indistinct) . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu is guru. He says that, "On My order you become guru." But He does not say that "What I am teaching." He says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He could say: "What instruction I have given." No.

Indian lady: Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, you have said, now the gurus are saying. That "What I am saying, you preach," He doesn't say. He said: "What Kṛṣṇa said."

Prabhupāda: That is guru. One who says like that, he is guru.

Indian lady: . . . ekti matra chele, invalid (. . . I have only one son, that too invalid.) Actually, you must work and achieve bhakti . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You can live with your son, husband, you can live. I can give you a room like this. So you haven't got to live underneath a tree. We have got up-to-date. Vrindavan to dekhi hai. (You have seen in Vṛndāvana.)

Indian lady: You must go to Vṛndāvana, everyone.

Prabhupāda: We are offering best facility.

Indian lady: No, she is saying, she wants to . . .

Prabhupāda: Similarly, you have seen our Navadvīpa also?

Indian lady: Mayapur dekhechi. (I have seen Māyāpur.)

Prabhupāda: Māyāpur, yes. So we are giving, as far as possible, comfortable life. Because modern man, he cannot go to the forest and live underneath a tree. That is not possible. Therefore by begging, begging, spending blood, we are getting money all over the world and spend it like this. For me, I can live anywhere. And I can collect one or two roṭi anywhere. It is not for me; it is for you. I have invited, "Come here, stay and preach this cult, Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." That I want. People are being cheated all over the world shamelessly.

Indian lady: What about this Guru Grantha Saheb. The philosophy which Guru Grantha Saheb has, what is that about?

Prabhupāda: Well, why you are going here and there? Why don't you take one Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian lady: Inquisitive mind asks that question.

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is Guru Grantha Saheb, but I know Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. I am not so learned scholar that I have to read this, that, that. I simply know what Kṛṣṇa has said, and I know Caitanya Mahāprabhu advises, yāre dekha tāre kaha. That I have done. That's all.

Karttikeya: You have six o'clock in the morning same thing, six o'clock in the evening same thing. No change. In the morning I was also there. No change. I've brought this gentleman and this lady, they want to come here and stay and work for the institution. He's seventy-four years old, and she's also very active and she knows very good cooking.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, very good.

Karttikeya: They cannot speak in English. That's the whole difficulty, they are speaking Hindi and Gujarati. They are very . . . feeling very shy. And he's very great expert in growing this wheat grass which has become very popular.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Karttikeya: Wheat grass. Everybody likes very much. Your devotees are also liking. He's an expert in this. He's a very good music teacher, he is a very good tape recordist. Puppeteer also, he's making these puppet for last twenty years. He's expert in making puppets. We can make kṛṣṇa-kathā puppets also for our theater. And he can train our young boys for the same thing. Video tape and everything, he knows about this audio-visual communication . . .

Prabhupāda: Everyone has got some talent. So svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya (BG 18.46). That is wanted. Whatever talent you have got, you can utilize for Kṛṣṇa.

Karttikeya: And I want to utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I know him for last twenty-two years.

Prabhupāda: Mai to zarur unko invite karunga. Wo jagah mil gaya hai to udhar bij sab . . . (I will surely invite them. If we get that land then the seeds . . .) this grass.

Karttikeya: That is a very good . . . that was wanted by . . . (indistinct) . . . he is thinking every day.

Prabhupāda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all varieties of work can be utilized.

Indian Lady: Kirtane khub effective hoy dekhechi. (Kīrtan is really very effective.)

Prabhupāda: Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). Jodi kirtan o thik shuddha hoye tahole bhalo. (If kīrtan is done very purely, then it's good.) Abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Kīrtan. He got perfection, Vaiyāsaki, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, simply narrated. Narration is also kīrtana. Recitation of Bhāgavatam. By reciting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam he became perfect. Abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane (Padyāvalī 53). Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit. Parīkṣit Mahārāja simply listened. There are navadhā-bhakti, nine kinds of bhakti process. Any one of them you be expert and you'll be perfect. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). So, where his family?

Karttikeya: He has got one son and daughter. His family is in Bombay. One son is expired earlier. Now he is living with the daughter. He is in Dadar, Shivaji Marg. And he has got good talent of teaching Hindi, music and tape recording, agriculture work. And he knows cooking, very good cooking.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if she gives cooking direction.

Karttikeya: She is also quite expert in cooking.

Indian man (2): Main to kirtan bahut karte hai. (His main interest is in doing a lot of kīrtan.)

Prabhupāda: Kirtan karne ka to mauka idhar khub milega, din raat. (laughter) Tired na ho jaye. (He will get plenty of opportunities to do kīrtan here, day and night. (laughter). I hope he doesn't get tired.)

Karttikeya: He plays very good harmonium.

Indian man (2): All musical instruments.

Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to introduce harmonium.

Karttikeya: No, I know. That is what he's teaching at the moment. He's doing it out of force, not . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Zyada . . . (Too many) musical instrument, if he plays, his attention will be diverted in musical instrument, not to chanting: "We have to see melody, whether it is going on nicely." But that is not good. Our concentration should be hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is . . . that is bhakti. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, simply this karatāla, khol, that's all. In those days, of course, there was no harmonium, but many stringed instruments were there—sitar, esarāja. But these things were not used. Sometimes we do use to attract, but it is not required. Eder baritei achen naki? (Are you staying in their house?)

Indian lady: Na ajke eder bari kirtan chilo. Bandra. Khub ananda holo. Onek lok eschilo. Apni ashirbad korun . . . (No, there was a kīrtan at their home today. Bandra. It was really blissful. Many people had come. Please give your blessings . . .)

Prabhupāda: Bhakta. Eta bhalo kore . . . (indistinct) . . . koro. (Devotees. Practice this nicely.)

Indian Lady: Yesterday I was thinking that the way it was for me, prema-bhakti. Through music it is very easy. Krishneri lila shob. (These are all pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa.) You have to take rest now?

Prabhupāda: No, I have to take prasādam . . . (indistinct)

Karttikeya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I've got some good quality . . . (indistinct) . . . Chyawanprash. If you like it, you can get more. It is made by Zandu Pharmacy. Very good quality. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . by saintly person. Such men should understand. Rājarṣi. Not ordinary king. Ṛṣi. Ṛṣi-tulya. So if one is religious, then he is ṛṣi-tulya. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the big, big leaders, politicians, they accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then others will follow. Unfortunately, the leaders, they have their own interpretation. They won't accept Bhagavad-gītā. That is the difficulty.

Karttikeya: Prabhupāda, how about opening one temple in Andaman?

Prabhupāda: Why not? We are opening everywhere, why not in Andaman? Good idea. I want to open centers in every village, in every town.

Karttikeya: That is very good, but to begin with, if such centers . . . I was discussing with Girirāja just the other day.

Prabhupāda: Is there any chance of opening?

Karttikeya: Yes. In Andaman? Why not? There is no obstruction. The Christians have now opened up two centers. Arya-samaj has opened one. So there is no restriction. And these areas, like Andaman or in some of these African countries where people have still no inclination or no knowledge of one particular kind of religion or particular thing, they are open to anything which is given to them.

Prabhupāda: There must be preacher, good preacher.

Karttikeya: Preacher of their language. But language is . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Language can be managed if there is good preacher.

Karttikeya: But in these areas they don't require that intelligent preachers. Intelligence is required in cities, where people are full of logic and want to argue right or wrong. And where they're determined to prove that "You are wrong, I am right," there you require . . .

Prabhupāda: That will not help. If they are . . . that is my propaganda. If they are induced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa . . .

Karttikeya: That's all. So for that, very big preaching is not required. Sincerity is required.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Karttikeya: It is the personal sincere influence which one . . .

Prabhupāda: America, I simply began this chanting and few minutes' speaking.

Karttikeya: But Andaman, if one or two centers are open, it will do very well.

Prabhupāda: Ap log sab aiye retire karke . . . (All of you can retire and join me . . .)

Karttikeya: Retire to aise to hone wale hai nahi, man se to hai hi. (That is not possible but in our minds we are already retired.)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, (No,) this preaching, jisme . . . (where . . .)

Karttikeya: Preaching ata nahi hai na karna. (We don't know how to preach.)

Prabhupāda: Hum log ke liye uchit hai, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. (The right instruction for us is pañcaśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet.)

Karttikeya: The trouble is, we don't know how to preach.

Prabhupāda: Preaching koi mushkil nahi hai. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu jaise bataye hai. (Preaching is not at all difficult if we do the way Caitanya Mahāprabhu has told us.) Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You simply repeat, recite, the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That is preaching. That is preaching. And we are doing the same thing. We are doing. We are not introducing any new interpretation. Whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, bās, finished. And that is becoming effective. We haven't got to manufacture anything.

Karttikeya: Prabhupāda? Jīva Gosvāmī was the guru of Mīrā?

Prabhupāda: No. I do not know who is the guru of Mīrābāi. But Mīrābāi, from the childhood, she was a devotee.

Karttikeya: She was a devotee, but . . .

Prabhupāda: But I do not hear anyone as her guru.

Karttikeya: No, but who was living in Vṛndāvana? Was Jīva Gosvāmī living in Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Six Gosvāmīs. Rūpa, Sanātana, Bhaṭṭa Raghunātha, Śrī Jīva, Gopāla Bhaṭṭa, Dāsa Raghunātha. Six Gosvāmīs, they were immediate disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They were entrusted to develop Vṛndāvana. And they did it. Modern Vṛndāvana means this is the contribution of the six Gosvāmīs. (break)

Karttikeya: . . . it says that when she went there and . . .

Prabhupāda: So that may be, whatever is there, but Rūpa Gosvāmī had no reason to refuse seeing a woman.

Karttikeya: No, but that's what I said. Which Gosvāmī?

Prabhupāda: No, any Gosvāmī. Because the Gosvāmīs were so popular that amongst the villagers, when there was some disagreement between family members, they used to come to him and say to him, "Bābā, ap jo bol dijiye, (Bābā, whatever you say that's final.") Bas, Baba jo bol diya. (Whatever Bābā says, that is final.) That means in that way he had to see many women many times. Why he should refuse? And what is the meaning of refusing if one, anybody . . . even Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not refuse, but women used to offer their respect from little distance, not very near. That was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's restriction. But in our succession there is no such thing as refusing anyone the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). He does not make any . . . and so far my institute is concerned, we do not make any such thing. Everyone should be given chance. But we have restriction that we should mix with women very cautiously. You should not have any illicit sex. These things are there.

Karttikeya: No, that is of course . . .

Prabhupāda: But why a woman should be refused? This is not authentic. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī should refuse her? They were bhikṣu, madhukarī. So when one goes for bhikṣā, so how he can check that he will not see any woman? How it is possible? He has to go to the householder, "Mātājī, ek cāpāṭi dijiye, (please give me a cāpāṭi) Or he'll stand. Generally woman comes to give cāpāṭi. So how it is possible to restrict the eyes? That is, he does not . . . I think I cannot accept this, that Rūpa Gosvāmī refused. Why he should refuse? Vaiṣṇava is kind. But we must mix with women cautiously. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He never says, "Only to the men."

Karttikeya: But this body designations are not necessary in this preaching.

Prabhupāda: As far one who is paṇḍita, in the position of Rūpa Gosvāmī, for him, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).

Karttikeya: He'll see woman and man equal.

Prabhupāda: There is no difference. And if he makes such distinction, then how he's paṇḍita? Then he's not paṇḍita. But it is etiquette, mātrā svasā duhitā vā. One should not very closely sit down even with mother, sister or daughter. That restriction is there. But that does not mean that one should not see even a woman. So we are following that principle. Never mind, man or woman, she can offer her respect, but not very near. That restriction must be there. (break) We have support from very high circle. Scholar, priest, even father, mother, parent. Many old gentlemen come to congratulate me, "Swāmījī, it is our great fortune that you have come to this country." In Los Angeles they have been very nice. Many parents used to come. Uska baad phir ap gaye the ki nahi? (Did you go there afterwards?)

Karttikeya: Nahi, ma nahi gaya tha. (No, I did not go there.) Now Girirāja is going about with this school work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But the building is not yet sanctioned. You have seen inside temple?

Karttikeya: Yes. I come here once a week. (break)

Prabhupāda: This is . . . of course, I gave him the idea. But Saurabh's design. He's Dutch. He's Dutch boy. The Vṛndāvana is also his.

Karttikeya: How is the Kurukṣetra going?

Prabhupāda: Kurukṣetra, the government has not yet decided to give us land.

Karttikeya: The Hyderabad gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Hyderabad land we have got.

Karttikeya: Gurukula.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice place, Hyderabad. I was going interior. I liked it very much.

Karttikeya: Prabhupāda, there is a place here, near . . . (indistinct) . . . that's about sixty, eighty miles from here about which mentioned to you before to have a school . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: That's what they're eating, that lamb's flesh.

Karttikeya: Now, Prabhupāda, even Jains eat meat.

Prabhupāda: Jain?

Karttikeya: Jains.

Prabhupāda: Where is ?

Kārttikeya: They eat meat.

Indian man (2): Doctors are recommending it during a seminar.

Kārttikeya: No, no, no.

Prabhupāda: Who cares for them? In Gujarat they are eating fish?

Karttikeya: No, eggs. They have started eating two lakhs of eggs in Ahmedabad.

Indian man (2): Ahmedabad is a very big meat-eating center.

Karttikeya: No, meat-eating . . . because there are muslims also.

Indian man (2): No, no, no. Pakka Bharatiya Gujarati. (Perfect Indian Gujarati.)

Karttikeya: No, I agree that everybody is changing. I am not saying no to you.

Prabhupāda: In Surat I was guest of that Jariwala. So on the morning walk I went to the riverside. So I saw so many fisherwoman carrying the big basket. So I asked the driver, he was Muhammadan, "Why these fisherwomen here?" He said: "Nowadays, all Gujaratis, they're eating fish."

Karttikeya: I tell you, Prabhupāda, very, very old . . . before 1937, in Bhavnagar, Saurashtra, we had our office in '37 . . . '35 we had. I was in Karachi. We sent one manager from Peshawar, twenty-year man. So he used to eat meat and fish and everything, and a young man he was . . .

Prabhupāda: A young man.

Karttikeya: Thirty year. Hindu brāhmaṇa. But there the brāhmaṇas also eat meat. Kashmiri brāhmaṇas eat meat. So he was about 25, 24 years old at that time. When he reached Bhavnagar, he could not get a house. There were so many "To Let's" but wherever he went he was told no. So after all he got fed up, he inquired what is the reason. He said: "You are a non-Katyawari, non-Saurashtri. You are from the frontier, so you must be eating meat and eggs. So we'll not give you our house." So ultimately, one of his business friends—because he was the manager of the office after a month or so—one of the business friends, he said: "All right, I'll get you a house if you give a written undertaking that you'll not eat meat." So he said: "Okay, thank you. I'll write undertaking that I'll not eat meat."

One year passed. But when he used to come back from office, in front of a particular shop he used to see . . . in those days even a crowd of twenty persons in front of a shop was a big thing. So he would see ten, fifteen people and eat what is stop in a shop and take a small tiffin box, drop off a small tiffin box and walk away. So one day he also stopped there, and he asked the shop-wala for this tiffin box. "What you are giving in there?" "That," he said: "is not for you." "What it is?" He said: "It's not for you. You'll not get it." Then he visited that fellow five, six times, then ultimately that man said, "Look here, why you want to know all about that? It's not meant for you, and you'll not be able to use it." He said: "What is? Can you tell me?" Then he brought it, gave it to him, he opened it. It was minced meat. "But it's meat." "How do you know it is meat?" He said: "I have been living in Punjab for all of my life. I know what is meat." He said: "Now don't shout. Go away from here. They are my customers." "They are your customers? They are the very people who have been refusing me a house!" The same people.

Prabhupāda: Ah. (laughs) Meat-eating is now worldwide. I have seen now in the aeroplane one Marwari gentlemen, he was eating the intestines of the hog.

Karttikeya: Not one. In our relationships, not one. They are competing with each other.

Indian man (2): What is the motivation?

Prabhupāda: They have learned it.

Karttikeya: No, no. Fashion. Now one thing is they can hold off the rich people in India. That is not now, but about, put it back to 1944–45, during the war time, British time. That hold has become stronger. If we do not eat West, particularly America, then we are called "uncivilized." So to prove that I am civilized, there are three things: I must speak English, my children must go to missionary or convent schools, we must adopt Western customs and etiquette, and we must, being all that, adopt their eating habits. Now if I'm not accepted in the American society . . . even the British is now called uncivilized comparatively. If I'm not accepted by the Americans that, "Yes, I know the standards and I live like them or even better than them," then I am supposed to be common. This is the conception of civilization amongst the Marwaris and the Gujaratis of the richer class. Previously it used to be, as they say of ancient India, that if one did not speak Sanskrit he was supposed to be uncivilized. So now that has come out . . .

Prabhupāda: In our childhood, my father's generation, in Calcutta, if a gentleman does not keep a prostitute extra, he is not a respectable man.

Karttikeya: That was in Delhi? That was during the Mogul time in Delhi? Even after the Mogul time? Not only keeping. In Delhi one of my very . . . my father's very close friend, Lala Shriram from Delhi . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, Shriram is a famous man.

Karttikeya: No, not that millionaire. Another Shriram. And they were from Delhi. Just I'm talking only about 1939, 40. In Karachi he came. He said every boy, before marriage, his marriage, he was supposed to go and take training from a prostitute for a month or so.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Karttikeya: If a boy was not trained there, he could not find a good wife.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Karttikeya: That was a part of his qualification to get a good wife.

Prabhupāda: Now how it is marr . . . because the bride and bridegroom is selected by the parents.

Karttikeya: Yes, the parents would not select that boy.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Karttikeya: Because parents, as they inquire today, "How much you are educated?" these things, that was one of the qualifications.

Prabhupāda: So what is the purpose?

Karttikeya: (laughs) I don't know. But to learn all these etiquettes of mehfils . . . (cabaret . . .) when you are in a sabhā, in a mehfil . . . these cabarets and all the . . . that type of cabaret, how you should behave.

(pause)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We will leave at 7:25, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. What is the time?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Fifteen minutes. Fifteen, twenty minutes.

Prabhupāda: What will be about the light?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They are fixing it up now. I don't know why it goes out. I've told the construction department to look into it, to fix it. I don't know why it goes out again.

Prabhupāda: In our area only?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Just here, the top floor of this building. Just your apartment and the next apartment.

Prabhupāda: Other buildings, they are . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, yes. Even our buildings other side have it. Just this one.

Karttikeya: Some emergency light needs to be connected here, so automatically the light goes out it will . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana they have got that generator.

Karttikeya: That is very good, but . . . (indistinct)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't need it in Bombay, because in Bombay it never goes off.

Karttikeya: . . . (indistinct)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's going off because something is wrong with the wiring in this apartment.

Prabhupāda: Here.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, there's no reason. Like on our side it doesn't go out at all.

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana it takes only two minutes to change. Similarly, we have in Māyāpur also.

Karttikeya: So can I know the reason why you are restraining the use of gobar gas now? Last time? Because I could not understand actual technical difficulty. Is there any difficulty?

Prabhupāda: No, we can utilize the gobar in different way.

Karttikeya: No, but gobar gas is not good, that's why I was . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, not good. But we have to arrange for this plant, generate gas. So why not direct?

Karttikeya: No, but the fuel is achieved, but the fertilizer is lost. Gobar, there are two elements. One is a methane gas and one is fertilizer. If you burn it, you are burning the fertilizer, which is very, very important, and very, very useful against the fuel that we get.

Prabhupāda: No, that ash is very good.

Karttikeya: No, ash is not the full fertilizer. It is only partial. Ten percent of the fertilizer becomes ash. The organic matter is burned which is a great loss to the society and the earth.

Prabhupāda: But in our Māyāpur, that plant, we spent so much, it has not become successful.

Karttikeya: No, that is mechanical fault. Just like electricity now it has failed. Now, sir, we should not stop utilizing electricity.

Prabhupāda: No, any machine, that defect will be there.

Karttikeya: But other people are working for twenty years in Ahmedabad. Everybody is very happy there, and they're actually making money out of it. The fertilizer that is there is about four times what is normally achieved. So good maintenance are required for any . . .

Prabhupāda: (sneezes loud) I have no objection, but I've got experience, in Māyāpur it is failure.

Indian man (2): Sometimes we get a defective machine. I purchased one for my girl's house. I've got a number of about thirty . . . (indistinct) . . . but one was rejected but . . .

Karttikeya: Either defective machine or defective maintenance.

Prabhupāda: Maybe. But the difficulty is there. (sneezes)

(pause)

Karttikeya: Ap to idhar dus-pundrah din rukenge? (Are you going to stay here for the next ten to fifteen days?)

Prabhupāda: Nahi, nahi. Program to hai . . . (No, no. My program is . . .) 31st to go for Bhubaneswar. Then come to Kumbha-melā.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or you can stay here and go to Kumbha-melā straight?

Prabhupāda: That can be also done. I am waiting for one letter from Gaura-Govinda Maharaja.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Gaura-Govinda. Then from Kumbha-melā you can go to Orissa, from Orissa to Māyāpur. Then you have go to Kodaikanal.

Prabhupāda: Kodaikanal, have you been ever? I have to inquire whether it is zigzag.

Karttikeya: Oh, Kodaikanal. South. Kodaikanal. That is very famous place.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it zigzag or is it straight?

Karttikeya: No, zigzag. In the mountain, mountain side.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that is not good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, then it is . . .

Karttikeya: Kodaikanal is outside . . . (indistinct)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, is there a train station or aeroplane, airport?

Karttikeya: Railway may be going. Kodaikanal, railway may be going.

Indian man (2): But even that will be zigzag. (indistinct—everyone speaking at once)

Karttikeya: Simla, Darjeeling, it's like that road. It's like the road, but little less zigzag. But zigzag is there.

Prabhupāda: Simla, er, Darjeeling is not so zigzag, but big, big loops.

Karttikeya: Loops are big. Roads are very difficult. Kodaikanal there is no train. In Ootacamund there is a train.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Kodaikanal there is no train at all?

Prabhupāda: No, there is train from Madras.

Karttikeya: Kodaikanal you'll have to change and then go by motorcar.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Karttikeya: That inquire.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I can inquire.

Karttikeya: When you come in Ootacamund there is a direct train. There are railway stations nearby. (indistinct discussion)

(Prabhupāda rings bell)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You want Jagadīśa or Hari-śauri?

Prabhupāda: Anyone. He can take this.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (indistinct) . . . have they come, the electrician?

Hari-śauri: No.

Prabhupāda: I like that place, Hyderabad.

Karttikeya: Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): The temple in the city is also very good.

Prabhupāda: Oh, you have seen it?

Indian man (2): Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Kārttikeya, you've seen?

Karttikeya: I have seen one, before the opening. I haven't gone after the opening.

Prabhupāda: It is very nice. That is the nicest temple in Hyderabad.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, thousands of people come every day.

Indian man (2): It's right in the center. (end)