770106 - Conversation B - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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770106R2-BOMBAY - January 06, 1977 - 50:32 Minutes

Girirāja: It didn't seem . . . (indistinct) . . . after two months. So today . . . actually I was thinking of phoning his wife, because she was not well. Or one of our ladies could phone her. And then if she's still not well they could go and visit her. And if she is well, they could invite her, and then if she wants to come, then she'll bring him.

Prabhupāda: Don't bother. But as an etiquette . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: Mr. Mota telephoned to say that that other man who was here . . .

Prabhupāda: Mashari.

Girirāja: No, the Kapoor, the Punjabi man.

Prabhupāda: That one is from . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: Yes, he was not with Mota.

Prabhupāda: A young boy.

Girirāja: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Whose daughter, she called.

Girirāja: Yes. So Mota says that he's a very rich man, and that man who came, we should approach his older brother, and he says they can give a very big donation. And they can introduce us to other Punjabis.

Prabhupāda: Mmm. So whatever you sanction, it will not be . . .

Girirāja: Well, we had a confrontation that they want to make the condition that we have to hand over these ten feet. So I said that this is a separate issue, and one thing had nothing to do with the other. So actually they have accepted all of our arguments. What is boils down is that Mhatre is pressing them, and they must, you know, why they are letting this slide by. So they say they want something to reply to him, so we have to write a letter explaining our case. And . . .

Prabhupāda: Mhatre is an all-in-all.

Girirāja: He's not all-in-all, but he can make their life miserable. Because what he does is, if they don't satisfy him, so he raises the issue of the corporation. He says this man is not doing his work properly, he should be transferred. So . . .

Prabhupāda: What he is for them?

Girirāja: He is their municipal councillor. He is the representative for this area in the municipal corporation. Elected. So actually this came up before, and at that time we met the municipal commissioner, that they are trying to put this condition. So he agreed that this should be a, you know, decided by the court or by some third party and that he will not do anything to change the status quo by forcing us. So we have to put that in the letter. And . . . (break) . . . hitch. Not a hitch exactly, but there's this urban land ceiling, that anyone who has more than 500 square yards property, that comes under the ceiling. So we are exempt because we are a charitable trust. And apart from that, in the final plan, most of the land will be built up; it won't be vacant. But in order to get the sanction, we have to get either an N.O.C. that we are exempt from the ceiling or an exemption to get the N.O.C. So we have to meet some higher official. So I have to finalize it, but I'm supposed to contact the architect and we have to go and see about this. Actually, the management is so bad there that they have made this requirement that any new building, you have to get N.O.C. regarding the land ceiling. But so far they have not given one N.O.C. for land ceiling because they have not yet decided what is the policy to give the N.O.C. So they simply are piling up the applications until they decide their policy. So first we will try to get exemption that we don't require this N.O.C. Then if we fail in that, then I suppose we have to meet the minister and ask him to give us the N.O.C.

Prabhupāda: So why not meet the minister?

Girirāja: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Why not meet the minister?

Girirāja: Yes. We've met him once before, because he's . . . the Municipality is under him. So when we met the Chief Minister to get these things straightened out, so at that time he spoke to this Urban Affairs Minister. So he knows us; he's quite intelligent personally. But I think if . . . first we'll meet the city engineer—he's next to the commissioner—and just say that we don't want to have to get this N.O.C. So if he removes that condition then the whole problem is solved. Do you think we should go straight to the minister?

Prabhupāda: Harassment.

Girirāja: Huh?

Prabhupāda: Harassment.

Girirāja: Oh, yes. Completely. Their whole office, the papers are piled to the ceiling, and people just waste hours chasing after them.

Prabhupāda: If there is ceiling, then we can divide the land amongst ourselves.

Girirāja: But that also they have blocked in the sense that in order to sell now that the ceiling is there, in order to sell your land you have to get another N.O.C. to sell it.

Prabhupāda: Then? I cannot sell, I cannot use it.

Girirāja: That's what I'm saying. They make it impossible. They say they want the country to develop quickly, but they make it impossible to develop.

Prabhupāda: Today I think fasting.

Pālikā: Fasting?

Prabhupāda: I have no appetite. I could not eat even breakfast.

Pālikā: So I will be here. I will be here if you want something. They can call for me.

Prabhupāda: Mmm. For the time being, no appetite. You can soak some little . . . (indistinct) . . . chipped rice in water.

Pālikā: Which?

Devotee: Chipped rice.

Pālikā: Chipped rice.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . in water. Soak it. Maybe if I feel hungry I shall take it. This is the condition of material world—simply harassing. This all these big, big government . . . (indistinct) . . . how to harass. The more you learn this art, how to harass, you become a big politician. Not para-upakāra.

Girirāja: The opposite.

Prabhupāda: Mandāḥ sumanda matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). Upadra: disturbing. Adhibautika: one living entity is harassing another living entity, killing. (pause) So I have decided to construct a temple in Bhuvaneśvara. What do you think? Shall I attempt?

Girirāja: Of course, that is our business to construct temples.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: Our business is to construct temples.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple, our preaching center. Temple means preaching center.

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: These people, they have made temple as a earning center. Now they have made it, but that's not purpose. Purpose is, that nowhere in the neophyte stage they will get . . . (indistinct) . . . man-manā bhava mad . . . (BG 18.65), think of Kṛṣṇa, offering some obeisances, offer some . . . (indistinct) . . . then hear from the persons maintaining the temple, about śāstra. This is temple. Now, this thing being lost, most temples and even churches, they are . . .

Girirāja: Closed.

Prabhupāda: That is the true realization. Therefore they do not like that temple should be constructed. It is waste of money. God . . . if it is being instructed about God, God worship . . . therefore sentimentality has no practical value. They must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting that, "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals. Just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and advance in spiritual understanding." This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce. Enjoy. Invent so many things for sense gratification" — Western civilization. And this is very attractive to the rākṣasa class: "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." This is the rākṣasa mentality. As soon as there is television, or similar invention, they become very much enthused. They purchase, and sitting down they waste their time. I have seen in America the whole man, the family, one dog, one television, simply wasting time. And fictitious stories. How they are wasting the valuable human life. How they are kept in darkness. This is life. I have seen television. All (laughs) some fictitious stories. Here, train position. They have manufactured one big hammer, and train is coming, and these rogues, they are sending their hammer to train, and as soon as the hammer—ah, smashed. They want to see that. One man kept ferocious dogs, and one girl . . . (indistinct) . . . and the dog is chasing and the girl is screaming. These were so many nonsense things . . . (indistinct) . . . you know this?

Jagadīśa: (laughs) There are millions of them.

Prabhupāda: Shooting, one man. (laughter) That is. These fictitious stories they enjoy. They have nothing to do.

Girirāja: They could see stories of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Mmm? Mythology.

Girirāja: That is mythology.

Prabhupāda: And here is fact. So one side is: people are no more interested. Whatever we shall attempt . . . (indistinct) . . . this is our business. I think Western countries, the young men, they're joining this successfully. Adānta gobhir viśataṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Seventh Canto, first part. Find out this: matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā. Matir na kṛṣṇe. This is our law book.

Jagadīśa:

matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā

mitho 'bhipadyeta gṛha-vratānām

adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ

punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām

(SB 7.5.30)

"Prahlāda Mahārāja replied: Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress toward hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has been already chewed. Their inclinations toward Kṛṣṇa are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts or by a combination of both."

Prabhupāda: Read the purport.

Jagadīśa: "In this verse the words matir na kṛṣṇe refer to devotional service rendered to Kṛṣṇa. So-called politicians, erudite scholars and philosophers who read Bhagavad-gītā try to twist some meaning from it to suit their material purposes, but their misunderstandings of Kṛṣṇa will not yield them any profit. Because such politicians, philosophers and scholars are interested in using Bhagavad-gītā as a vehicle for adjusting things materially, for them constant thought of Kṛṣṇa, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is impossible. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (18.55), bhaktyā mām abhijānāti: only through devotional service can one understand Kṛṣṇa as He is. The so-called politicians and scholars think of Kṛṣṇa as fictitious. The politician says that his Kṛṣṇa is different from the Kṛṣṇa depicted in Bhagavad-gītā. Even though he accepts Kṛṣṇa and Rāma as the Supreme, he thinks of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa as impersonal because he has no idea of service to Kṛṣṇa. Thus his only business is punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), chewing the chewed again and again. The aim of such politicians and academic scholars is to enjoy this material world with their bodily senses. Therefore it is clearly stated here that those who are gṛha-vrata, whose only aim is to live comfortably with the body in the material world, cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. The two expressions gṛha-vrata and carvita-carvaṇānām indicate that a materialistic person tries to enjoy sense gratification in different bodily forms, life after life, but is still unsatisfied. In the name of personalism, this ism or that ism, such persons always remain attached to the materialistic way of life. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ

tayāpahṛta-cetasām

vyavasāyātmikā buddhiḥ

samādhau na vidhīyate

(BG 2.44)

" 'In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place.' Those who are attached to material enjoyment cannot be fixed in devotional service to the Lord. They cannot understand Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, or His instruction, Bhagavad-gītā. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30): their path actually leads toward hellish life. As confirmed by Rsabhādeva, mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ (SB 5.5.2): one must try to understand Kṛṣṇa by serving a devotee. The word mahat refers to a devotee."

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha

daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ

bhajanty ananya-manaso

jñātvā bhūtādim avyayam

(BG 9.13)

" 'O son of Prtha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.' (BG 9.13) A mahātmā is one who is constantly engaged in devotional service, twenty-four hours a day. As explained in the following verses, unless one adheres to such a great personality, one cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to know where Prahlāda had gotten his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Who had taught him? Prahlāda sarcastically replied, 'My dear father, persons like you never understand Kṛṣṇa. One can understand Kṛṣṇa only by serving a mahat, a great soul.' Those who try to adjust material conditions are said to be chewing the chewed. No one has been able to adjust material conditions, but life after life, generation after generation, people try and repeatedly fail. Unless one is properly trained by a mahat—a mahātmā, or unalloyed devotee of the Lord—there is no possibility of one's understanding Kṛṣṇa and His devotional service."

Prabhupāda: I have seen in San Francisco, what is that . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Devotee: Redwood?

Prabhupāda: I think San Francisco. What is that park?

Girirāja: Golden Gate?

Prabhupāda: Golden Gate.

Jagadīśa: San Diego?

Prabhupāda: No, no, San Francisco. There is a lake. So there the ducks, the male duck is attacking the female duck. What is called? When man forcibly attacks?

Girirāja: Rape.

Prabhupāda: Rape. Raping. And the human life the same meaning. So this is also going on. The water, the ducks, water on the soil, you know, the ducks are going, and little off the man is doing. The same thing, but in different way. The business is the same, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But according to the mentality, he is getting different body, but the business is the same. Adānta-gobhir, unrestrained senses. Simply sense enjoyment. The duck is also doing this, the ant is doing this, the fly is doing this, the mosquito is doing this, the man is doing this, animal is doing this. Same thing. Nothing different. That is called this punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām. He has done this business when he was duck, when he was mosquito, when he was fly—doing the same business . . .

Your think that this business is being done by the hogs, dogs and other animals, lower animals? I'm also doing the same thing, but where is the difference? I am dog? Study nature, punaḥ punaś carvita (SB 7.5.30). That is required. This is Bhāgavatam. Punaḥ punaś, again and again. Changing the body, but the business is the same. And for doing the same business I have to undergo so much suffering of birth and death. But the sense is, why not stop this business, birth and death? That they will not do. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ (BG 8.15). This is wanted: to stop this birth and death. No more coming to this material world for the same business again and again. That is saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ . . . find out this verse.

Jagadīśa: What is that verse? Saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gati?

Prabhupāda: That is another difficulty, that our leaders, they have no merit to find out the reference.

Jagadīśa: They what?

Prabhupāda: Just like I have given this verse, but you cannot.

Jagadīśa: No.

Prabhupāda: So how to maintain this business?

Jagadīśa: We have to study.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if you cannot preach, who will come to see your big building? This instruction should be given. Therefore my centers are all there.

Jagadīśa: I've looked in the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . mām upetya. Mām.

Jagadīśa:

mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ

(BG 8.15)

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion . . ."

Prabhupāda: "After attaining Me." That is the point.

Devotee: ". . . never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Prabhupāda: "The highest perfection." That we want. That is our mission . . . (indistinct) . . . and they are saying they are brainwashed. That is government, "These are all brainwashed." Some concocted ideas. The government . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (2): Bhagavato Is this . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And we have to preach to them. First of all you have to believe in God. And then, yes, God is somewhere, and you have to go there, and you have to meet Him. You have to stay with Him and talk with Him. Who will believe you? That is the difficulty.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu

kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāṁ

kaścin vetti . . .

(BG 7.3)

I've told many times . . . (indistinct) . . . bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19) . . . (indistinct) . . . very difficult . . . (indistinct) . . . and we have to preach. Not only preach, but we have to stand on this platform very firmly. So that requires very great . . . (indistinct) . . . how you can preach unless you stand on this platform? So you should always remember that you have taken on a very, very difficult task. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati. Not very easy task. But one thing is sure, that if you be successful or not successful, it is your victory. Because you tried for this, Kṛṣṇa will be very much pleased. That is your victory. Not that in every day you will be successful. That is not. I went to your country not to become successful. That my Bengali . . .

Devotee (1): Poem?

Prabhupāda: Poetry. I never went there to become successful. I knew, "Who will accept? Just let me try." My Guru Mahārāja said. I, I, I thought that, "I shall loiter in the streets for few days more," that's all. Actually I did that. No friend, no shelter, no nothing; everyone is loitering, here and there. And finally, so disappointed, I went to the ticket office, and then I was speaking about to go back to India. (laughs) That manager told me, "Swāmījī, why you should go? You are coming." "Yes, when I am disappointed I come—otherwise I don't want to go away." I told him. For one year continually, without Kṛṣṇa's plan. But when I took the risk of $200, planned, without any . . . (indistinct) . . . (laughs) I had $200—I prayed, "Take this so-called beginning." So that was actually the beginning. And these boys, Hayagrīva and Kīrtanānanda, Satsvarūpa and Brahmānanda, in this way. Umāpati . . .

Hari-śauri: Mukunda.

Prabhupāda: And Mukunda. They . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: They must have been very intelligent.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Hayagrīva is intelligent. Undoubtedly. On account of his past habits, he sometimes falters. Hayagrīva is undoubtedly intelligent. Kīrtanānanda too. You are all intelligent. So I am surprised how Brahmānanda . . . māyā is so strong. From the very beginning he came voluntarily. He immediately offered whatever he got, it was maybe $400. Practically, after his joining I got some relief. Otherwise I had to collect. Somehow or other, there were $200, planned and other things . . . when Brahmānanda came I got little relief. He has come . . . (indistinct)

Girirāja: He always used to say that he needed your personal association a lot.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: I remember Brahmānanda Mahārāja, he used to tell me that he needed your personal association.

Prabhupāda: Yes, he was made . . . (indistinct) . . . I made him the president. He is a very saintly person. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . defect . . . and his brother is just the opposite (laughs) . . . Gargamuni. So on the whole it is a very difficult task, but still we have to pull on. So what is your opinion? Shall I begin?

Girirāja: Well, I mean, from a preaching point of view, it is a good idea. It is the managing . . .

Prabhupāda: Why you are always . . . (indistinct) . . . from the very beginning, I was loitering on the streets of New York. Who thought that I would get this place, so prestigious? (laughter) Can anyone think of it?

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: And the whole country is now opposite. (laughter)

Hari-śauri: The shape . . .

Prabhupāda: The movement of a street loafer. Why do you speculate? Now we are entering into Russia . . . (indistinct)

Hari-śauri: Begin. (break)

Prabhupāda: So you are going to the downtown, no?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if you can go to the Bank of America. You bring that . . .

Girirāja: Yes, I went there yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Girirāja: They said that the new receipt is ready.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Girirāja: We just have to bring the old one.

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Girirāja: You have the old receipt, certificate? (break)

Prabhupāda: Our business is to open temple and print books. I have made condition that I shall give you books. So by selling books, you spend half the money for temple and half for reprinting. That he has agreed. From the beginning I made, "Print some books, one lakh and two lakhs. Let them sell, that . . ."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a good idea.

Prabhupāda: Yes, business idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But that is my business. Therefore I encourage, "Print books." I’ll spend, whatever money I've got, I'll spend. I don't like to keep in the bank. I want to see it, it is transformed into books. Here, also you do. Keep all books, but nicely. It will sell; it may take time. It will sell.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: If we finish all this money that I have, then we remain empty pocket. Bās. That's all. No income tax. If you want tax? Pocket, finished. (laughter) And as soon as there will be money there will be so much . . .

Devotee: Envy?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Therefore I want to convert all this money into books. Do that. And nice almirā, so that the books may not go bad. Print books, and now get the newspaper. They have got a good place, so follow this policy. Whatever money I have got, spend for this purpose. What do you think?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it.

Girirāja: Actually, many people are asking for Marathi.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Girirāja: They are asking . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, any gentle . . . all languages of the whole world. Print books, and work for distributing. That is our business. Print books and distribute. For that, whatever energy is required, employ. If you cannot preach individually, if they purchase one book and read, that is also good. (end)