770108 - Conversation A - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770108R1-BOMBAY - January 08, 1977 - 85:51 Minutes

(Discussion about Kumbhamela)

Gurudāsa: . . . the drafts Gopāla sent me, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu sent me, were uncashable.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gurudāsa: Because he sent them first in one man's name who didn't cash them, or was instructed that he shouldn't do that, and he did by mistake. Then he sent them in my name, and he sent them "account payee," and they wouldn't open an account without permission from the Reserve Bank of India. So that would have taken too long. So I've come . . . first I went to Calcutta, and I thought . . . I have the drafts. I thought maybe Gargamuni Swami could give me the lakṣmī, the money. But he didn't want to do it. So now I'm here. I'm going to get it this morning and go back. I wrote a complete report for you, but I'll tell it to you. As far as the location goes, the location is a little bit off. I'm not that satisfied with it, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is the location?

Gurudāsa: It's on what's called Gangadwip.

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Gurudāsa: It's on a place called Gangadwip. But that's new place. It's an island that just appeared this year, splitting the Ganges in two. You know, Jhusi is here, and Gangadwip is here. And then the place where we were last year is here. We were here last year, Gangadwip is here, and Jhusi is here. And . . . but I've been sending out and going out on saṅkīrtana, so that will make up for our location. It's not so bad, but I want to paint a true picture. It's not so good, nor is it so bad. And there's thirteen tents. We have three bighās of land, sand. And we've made a tin enclosure all the way around. And we had a Swiss cottage tent for yourself. Swiss cottage means a room about this large, from the end of the almirah to the wall and about this wide. And then a middle room about from here to the wall, and then another small room. But I was not satisfied with that, so I took that tent down, and when I left two days . . . a day and a half ago, I told Bhāgavata dāsa and Jagat-guru Mahārāja, who are there, to erect a straw house for you—bigger. So they are, I hope, doing that. The difficulty was that we had no money, and therefore I've come and am going back. I had a few hundred dollars in traveler's checks which I cashed and gave it to them to keep going.

Prabhupāda: Straw house is not good.

Gurudāsa: No? What would you like? Because a straw house retains the heat during the day.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if there is fire it will be . . .

Gurudāsa: I see. We made a separate latrine for you and separate shower, etc. That is all enclosed. So what would you like? A big tent?

Prabhupāda: I do not know, but a straw house . . . is there any chance of setting . . . getting fire?

Gurudāsa: Well, your kitchen is apart, in tin.

Prabhupāda: Tin.

Gurudāsa: So that . . . the kitchen would be safe. Otherwise why would there be any fire? The outside is also tin. There would only be your house. Now, I can make a tin house if you want, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, tin house will be . . .

Gurudāsa: Not so good. Straw is the best.

Prabhupāda: That is best. But fire protection-wise . . .

Gurudāsa: Well, one thing I was thinking we can put shamianas on the outside of it or the inside. I looked at the other camps, and most of the big ācāryas, etc. they have straw houses.

Prabhupāda: Straw.

Gurudāsa: Therefore I thought if they have, then you should have.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. But one gentleman wants to give us a house.

Gurudāsa: Kapoor?

Prabhupāda: Ha, ha. Have you seen that?

Gurudāsa: No. Not yet. I've been too busy. To get to any place you have to walk. But the first thing I did, I got a . . .

Prabhupāda: Why to walk?

Gurudāsa: Well, I hired a autoscooter for the day, but there's so many things to do that since you had a place to live, I put that . . . that I'm going to see it, but I didn't do it immediately. I went to see Munshi's camp though. Now, that is three miles away. That I walked to. It took one and a half hours to go.

Prabhupāda: One and a half hours!

Gurudāsa: From our camp. And one and a half hours back. They kept on saying, "Sida, sida! Agi, agi!" And finally I got there. And their camp is not nicer than ours. It would mean a saving of approximately . . .

Prabhupāda: At the cost of inconvenience.

Gurudāsa: But it wouldn't even save that much money, because our tents . . . when I got there, the one thing that was up were our tents.

Prabhupāda: Where is the Mamford Gandhi? Do you know?

Gurudāsa: No. At Kapoor's house. I will go and see. Also Gopāla Kṛṣṇa mentioned a Ghosh. I'm going to get all the addresses from Jagadīśa Prabhu and look into it.

Prabhupāda: Oh, Dr. Ghosh.

Gurudāsa: Dr. Ghosh.

Prabhupāda: Dr. Ghosh is a little off.

Gurudāsa: But Gopāla Prabhu said that you would rather live in our camp.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurudāsa: So then we'll make the best house we can for you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gurudāsa: Now, will you have blankets with you, or should we get everything there? I'll talk to you about it later.

Prabhupāda: I have got my overcoat.

Gurudāsa: It's very cold. We'll . . .

Hari-śauri: We can discuss it.

Gurudāsa: Yes. Whatever is possible. So there's a couple of other points. Number one: because you were speaking about the devotees becoming like Rāvaṇa on the roof, we're doing our own cooking. I have our own men. And one assistant cook I hired for a hundred rupees. This assistant cook is a very nice man.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Gurudāsa: He's so submissive.

Prabhupāda: I can cook my food in fifteen minutes, in so many varieties.

Gurudāsa: (laughs) You used to do that.

Prabhupāda: Not fifteen; forty-five.

Gurudāsa: You used to do that in your cooker.

Prabhupāda: I yesterday . . . yesterday I did, and it was so nice. Everyone appreciated.

Gurudāsa: Acchā. Well, you can do whatever you like. (laughs) The cooks wanted things like 4,500 rupees with pots, and I said, "This is outrageous!" So, no. So now our own men . . .

Prabhupāda: 4,500?

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Hari-śauri: To hire a cook, hire some cooks, they want that much money.

Gurudāsa: Everyone is cheating for the melā. So I said, "No, no." So I said to our men, "We must do it." So I think we'll be able to do it. I preached to them.

Prabhupāda: No, last year we were doing ourselves, our Swami . . . who . . .?

Gurudāsa: Who was that?

Prabhupāda: He's well-known svāmī. I forget his name. Was in England?

Hari-śauri: Revatīnandana?

Prabhupāda: Revatīnandana. No, Revatīnandana. Yes, Revatī . . .

Hari-śauri: He was in England.

Gurudāsa: He was cooking. He's a good cook.

Prabhupāda: He has cooked very nice.

Gurudāsa: Anyway, I have three men cooking now and . . . so that will be all right. Now, the officials are cooperating with us nicely, of the melā. The other day Kamalapati Tripathi was there, and we saw him, and all the officials were there, and he said, "Oh, hello! How are you? Everything all right?" And we said, "Yes." And it was a very nice conversation. And all the other officials saw that we were on friendly basis with the minister, so they were also more friendly. One unfortunate thing happened, a small unfortunate thing, a sukhi-duḥkhi. We went to the saṅgam with our kīrtana party during the time of the big . . . the fifth bath. It's not the biggest one, but it's . . . many pilgrims came. And we said we should chant and also bathe. So first we chanted. Then we went in for bath at four o'clock in the morning. Very refreshing, very nice. We went in, and we had our bath. Then we put our clothes on. We chanted, and we were very happy chanting. The police came, many police on horses, and said, "Get out!" And they were demons, like "Get out!" And I got a press pass. I said, "Why should we get out? We're only here to chant the holy names of God. This is a melā." "Well, then," he said, "get out!" He's a demon, and he's taking his horse and pushing it on me and the other devotees. So he forced us out. So Bhāgavata dāsa went to the melā officials who we had some . . . and complained. And the policeman was suspended and made a public apology. And now we have a letter that says we can chant any place we want in the melā with police cooperation.

Prabhupāda: Then it is fortunate, fortunate.

Gurudāsa: Yes, very good. A blessing in disguise, yes. So they're trying to organize. There's many bhangis who pick up the stool.

Prabhupāda: The place is nice then.

Gurudāsa: Oh, yes. And I cut down the paṇḍāl size. Originally the paṇḍāl was 100 by 150; 100 feet wide. But I saw that were going to emphasize saṅkīrtana, and I measured that 120 by 75 was adequate.

Prabhupāda: Our visitors, they have got facility to come?

Gurudāsa: Yes. We have Life Member tents, and some visitors have been coming. I have been receiving them. So we have . . . there's one thing I wanted to ask you. A lot of youths are coming, Western youths, some hippies, but mostly clean. Some hippies. But there are two hippies, and I saw what they were like, and I didn't allow them to stay. But mostly our camp is . . . until the devotees come, there are some tents that are empty. So they said, "We need a place to stay. Is it all right?" So I said, "Tonight you can stay. Then I'll let you know later on." And we preached to them. We have a morning program there, and we have an evening program. So they attended. So I thought with your permission I could erect some tents, not in our living area . . . the chokidhars I put outside, right on the gate, because I didn't think they should live in our area, but they should be there. So the chokidhars have a tent. I thought behind the paṇḍāl I could erect some tents, or even behind our tin where people wouldn't see them so much, we could invite some guests, charge them something for living and preach to them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. But they smoke.

Gurudāsa: Yes, they . . . some will.

Prabhupāda: That is bad.

Gurudāsa: So, I mean it's up to . . . I'm asking what you think.

Prabhupāda: They will drink; they will smoke; they will not take bath. These are the defects. These people are unclean.

Gurudāsa: Yes. Suppose they are willing . . .

Prabhupāda: It will spoil the cleanliness of the . . .

Gurudāsa: Of course, they would not be in our camp.

Prabhupāda: It may be. But their, that association is very undesirable.

Gurudāsa: Yes, Yes. What if someone is willing to follow the regulations?

Prabhupāda: First they should be shaved, clean-shaved. Will they accept that? They must take early in the water, take bath. Cleanliness.

Gurudāsa: No, they won't do. So I won't have that. I just thought it was a preaching opportunity.

Prabhupāda: Preaching . . . if there is not clean even, what they will understand?

Gurudāsa: Well, when I came, I was not clean either. By your grace I cleaned up. (laughs)

Hari-śauri: They won't clean up.

Gurudāsa: No, no. I accept what, you know. I want to do . . .

Prabhupāda: People may not misunderstand that "This is hippie camp."

Gurudāsa: Yes. The police were sending, and I went to the melā officials . . .

Prabhupāda: Therefore the police came. They thought that you are hippies.

Gurudāsa: No, I don't think, because this was before they came.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, their association is not good.

Gurudāsa: Yes. So we won't have. Definitely not.

Hari-śauri: We have to make a good impression.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that people may not think "This is another edition of hippies."

Gurudāsa: So we won't have at all. Now we have a general list of when everyone's big programs are.

Prabhupāda: Many are coming, hippies?

Gurudāsa: There's a lot. There's a lot. Well, yes, there's a lot.

Prabhupāda: So you consult amongst yourselves, but people may not have a bad impression.

Gurudāsa: I think I will not do it, because if you think there's any small chance of them associating with us . . .

Prabhupāda: Alpa-chidre. A small . . . white, white cloth and a small black spot, it becomes prominent.

Gurudāsa: Yes. So we won't do it. We can try and preach to them at other places. Because we're going out on saṅkīrtana many times. We're getting a list of all the other programs in the melā, so we'll take our saṅkīrtana parties where it's going to be prominent and pass out literature. Now, for the meeting, for the resolution, I thought perhaps on the 16th or the 17th, because it is close to the big bathing day on the 14th, and it won't conflict that much with other programs.

Prabhupāda: Meeting means all other sādhus, they will meet?

Gurudāsa: Yes. I'm getting invitations printed up, and then we can write their names in, and I want to make the invitation something personal, like "This is a meeting of utmost importance."

Prabhupāda: So that, some Swami Chand?

Hari-śauri: Chandra Swami, minister for Air India. He's supposed to be wanting to see Prabhupāda. He's coming to the melā.

Gurudāsa: Yes. I'll look into that. You told me last time.

Hari-śauri: Is Indira Gandhi coming?

Gurudāsa: There's an unofficial rumor that Indira Gandhi's going to come. Speaking of politicians, I did some research on Tarun Kanti for the letter, and he's very preoccupied now, and Gargamuni Swami told me that he doesn't want to have anything to do with foreign funds.

Prabhupāda: Foreign funds.

Gurudāsa: In other words, that letter would say, "I would oversee this." On the other hand, there's a man from CARE who went to our camp and was very impressed with the food program. I thought we could get a letter from him, because Germany knows CARE, and they don't know Tarun Kanti Gosh from the dhobi. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No.

Gurudāsa: So I thought CARE would be good, so Abhirāma Prabhu is trying for that. Also I saw C. L. Bajoria yesterday while I was waiting to come here, and he was very happy to see me. And he said by your inspiration, "I want to give you that room downstairs."

Prabhupāda: Which room?

Gurudāsa: That room at the bottom.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that will solve our great problem.

Gurudāsa: Yes. They said . . . Abhirāma says he's been trying for months for that room. So C. L. yesterday said that, "Yes, I want to give that. My brothers want that room, and my office wants the room, but I want you to have it." So the meeting was last night, and Abhirāma is coming to the Kumbha-melā. We'll know for sure when he comes. So that might be some good news.

Prabhupāda: That is very good. There our men suffer very much. If that room is available, then it is very good.

Gurudāsa: They made a . . . Abhirāma made a bathroom. He put four tanks on the top, and there's running water in that bathroom.

Prabhupāda: In our side?

Gurudāsa: In the one we have.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gurudāsa: So that's somewhat of an improvement.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Improvement can be done. There is space. Anyway, if we get the down room, it will solve a problem. What is the rent?

Gurudāsa: One thousand.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Gurudāsa: But C. L. said he would pay.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is very kind of him.

Gurudāsa: We will see.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we will be his guest. He will pay rent. That's all right. Very good.

Gurudāsa: So anyway, he said it verbally. We'll see when Abhirāma comes. I think he'll do it.

Prabhupāda: He's gentleman.

Gurudāsa: Yes, he is. He's offering all his prasādam, and he's following Ekādaśī. And he told me yesterday . . . he showed me a picture of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and yourself. And he said he sleeps on his back, and he puts it on his heart.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Acchā.

Gurudāsa: So he has your picture in his room, etc. So he appreciates.

Prabhupāda: That is nice.

Gurudāsa: So . . . let's see. What else. So Munshi's is not . . . I've saved some money by cutting down fences and paṇḍāl already, and not hiring these cooks.

Prabhupāda: Gargamuni said somebody has paid ten thousand.

Hari-śauri: There was supposed to be some man who was going to give five thousand or ten thousand rupees.

Gurudāsa: For food relief or . . .?

Prabhupāda: I do not know.

Hari-śauri: For something.

Gurudāsa: There's one man who paid for a tent, Life Member. And Gargamuni Mahārāja gave me ten thousand rupees for food relief yesterday. Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then that . . . I was . . . he got ten thousand rupees.

Gurudāsa: He gave it to me yesterday. I have it right here.

Prabhupāda: What about Saurabha?

Devotee (1): He called last night from Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Oh. He's there in Delhi?

Devotee (1): Yes. He just came back yesterday. He'll be coming here soon.

Gurudāsa: Now, previously the budget . . . I figured it out with the ones who are cooking. You wanted purīs and halavā and sabjī, something like that. But we didn't have enough before. So I was going to make puṣpanna. Is that all right? Or would you rather . . . now, with the ten thousand rupees . . .

Prabhupāda: Puṣpanna for visitors also?

Gurudāsa: Visitors.

Prabhupāda: No, they will have objection to take anna. They'll take purī, śāk, halavā.

Gurudāsa: What do you want?

Prabhupāda: Purī, śāk, halavā is . . . it can be distributed to anyone. Puṣpanna, some may take, some may not take.

Hari-śauri: There's some special reason?

Gurudāsa: Well, it is due to our budget.

Hari-śauri: I mean for taking the . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, budget not. The purī-śāk is pakkī, and puṣpanna is kacchī. They think like that.

Gurudāsa: I see.

Prabhupāda: That kacchī, there is distinction of jāta. One jāta, one caste, will not take other caste anna. That is Indian thinking. But purī-śāk, everyone.

Hari-śauri: Everyone takes.

Gurudāsa: But also everyone was serving . . .

Prabhupāda: Purī-śāk will be cheaper, I think.

Gurudāsa: Whatever you like. They said . . .

Prabhupāda: I don't like, but if you distribute, must be acceptable to everyone.

Gurudāsa: Everyone is serving, that is serving, capātī and dhāl.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Gurudāsa: But everyone is serving that already. That's another reason I thought that puṣpanna would be nice, because it would be unique.

Prabhupāda: No, I have no objection. That is all right. But purī-śāk is better. Is it costly?

Gurudāsa: More costly, yes. And I told him to make a list for you to see, if you need it, why it's more costly. At any rate, he says . . . the cook has done research, our man, and says purī-śāk would be more costly.

Prabhupāda: But don't allow him to purchase.

Hari-śauri: Don't you have an Indian purchaser?

Prabhupāda: Who is purchasing?

Gurudāsa: No, he's not an Indian. He's one of our men.

Prabhupāda: Oh. That is another thing.

Gurudāsa: Our men are purchasing.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Then it is all right.

Gurudāsa: Two of them go together, and they've given me complete receipts. I said, "If you cannot get a receipt, give me a kacchā receipt. If you cannot get a pakkā, give me kacchā receipt written by someone else. So anyway, we'll try and do purī-śāk.

Prabhupāda: Purī-śāk, always simple. And if you add with that, some purī and some this puṣpanna, that can be done. But generally they are taking śāk, roti-śāk, dāl.

Gurudāsa: The devotees, yes.

Prabhupāda: And rice also? No.

Gurudāsa: Once a day.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. Above all, manage, that's all right, nicely. The foodstuff must be palatable. That should not be rubbish thing.

Gurudāsa: No. How are we going to feed others if we are not feeding the devotees nicely?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, yesterday we made simple cooking. How it was nice.

Gurudāsa: We're making soup at night, simple soup, and devotees like it 'cause it's not hurting their digestion. And I'm having some flat rice on hand for anyone who needs it. So I'm trying to care for everything.

Prabhupāda: There is milk supply? No.

Gurudāsa: Yes. We have one man from Vṛndāvana who's bringing milk at 2.70 a kilo. A little costly, but melā time, and they have to bring it from a far distance. Anyway, 2.70 kilo, cow's milk.

Prabhupāda: Cow's milk . . .

Hari-śauri: They say. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Cow's milk means buffalo with water.

Gurudāsa: With a little bit of the newspaper inside also.

Prabhupāda: Acchā.

Gurudāsa: For to put, to make it look like cream, they put newspaper also.

Hari-śauri: Make it thick. They grind paper. You have to strain it before you drink it.

Gurudāsa: But I . . . we tasted it. We came to the conjoint opinion that it was passable.

Prabhupāda: Less newspaper. (laughter) So why such milk should be taken, with newspaper?

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Muslim countries, the Muslims, they feed the cows fish, dried fish. And the Hindus will not take the local milk there.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Devotee (1): Because the Muslims are feeding the cows dried fish, and the milk is smelling like fish even. There's no grass for them to eat there in this Arabia, so they're feeding them dried fish, like in a soup. Hindus will not take the milk there even because of that.

Gurudāsa: So do you think I should organize this meeting with Chandra Swami also, taking some part in organizing? Or just meet him to get him to see you. Not any special, but I mean to say that he knows the situation. He can . . .

Prabhupāda: Or if he wants to see, he may come. He may find out.

Gurudāsa: Yes. He should come to see you. I'm arranging for your car to come from Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gurudāsa: I'm going to arrange for your car to come from Delhi. We've made two roads of steel, of steel pieces. That's what they're using in the melā on the sand. And I've gotten permission from the head of the melā to take some of that. So we're making two rastas, one especially for you, where shamiana comes out, and it doesn't look like a road, but when you come in, just untie that, and your car goes in. And then another one behind. So that will be able to keep any vehicles that come. One bus came already—Haṁsadūta Mahārāja's one bus.

Prabhupāda: He has come.

Gurudāsa: No, he hasn't. But he sent some men.

Hari-śauri: He is coming, though, I think. That's what we were told.

Gurudāsa: He's expected. I saw Acyutānanda Mahārāja yesterday. He's coming. I don't know if Gargamuni is going to come or not.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Gurudāsa: He says his health isn't good. I don't know if he wants to come. I think he just likes to distribute books.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Hari-śauri: What about Gurukṛpa?

Gurudāsa: I think they'll all come.

Hari-śauri: Gurukṛpa's in Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Oh. So there is facility for exchanging dollars?

Gurudāsa: Yes. I'm trying to cash this draft. I went to three banks, and as I say, I had some traveler's checks, and because there was no money there I cashed my own traveler's checks and left it with them, so they . . . you want dollars into rupees? Yes, that's possible.

Prabhupāda: What is the rate?

Gurudāsa: It was 8.78 the other day. It fluctuates from day to day, but 8.78.

Prabhupāda: That is good rate, 8.7 . . .

Gurudāsa: Better than before. That was for traveler's checks. It may be slightly less for cash.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Traveler's checks are always higher.

Gurudāsa: So I'm going back today. As soon as Gopāla Kṛṣṇa gives me the lakṣmī, money, I'll go back. Bhāgavata's doing a very nice job.

Prabhupāda: We have to go to Orissa, Bhuvaneśvara, afterwards.

Gurudāsa: Yes, I heard you were planning to go. Gargamuni says it's good for the health.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Gurudāsa: Yes. He has about three or four places he was naming that are very good. He's going because his health, he says, isn't good.

Prabhupāda: So let him go to Bhuvaneśvara. Orissa is good for health?

Gurudāsa: Yes, he says.

Prabhupāda: Then that's why. Let him come to Bhuvaneśvara, and I want to start a temple.

Gurudāsa: Yes. Your health is . . .?

Prabhupāda: From yesterday it is good.

Gurudāsa: 'Cause you cooked for yourself.

Prabhupāda: No. Because I could eat little.

Gurudāsa: What did you cook?

Prabhupāda: Just rice, dhāl, and vegetable, that's all. Nothing extraordinary.

Gurudāsa: And you put lot of spice in it or not?

Prabhupāda: No.

Gurudāsa: So that's the secret. If someone cooks for themselves . . . why don't you direct it but not cook?

Prabhupāda: Yes, I'm directing, and nobody learns.

Gurudāsa: I can learn.

Prabhupāda: Everyone can see. It is . . .

Gurudāsa: There's no . . . your health must be pakkā. So we have separate kitchen for you, separate kitchen for Life Members. Gargamuni Mahārāja is sending his Shantilal, his cook.

Hari-śauri: He's a good cook.

Prabhupāda: Cooking is being done with wood? That's nice. That is very good.

Gurudāsa: Wood. Wood. Yes, very nice. And in the morning, the first morning . . . when I went there, actually nothing was happening very much. So the first morning . . . it's so cold, the devotees were just staying in their blankets. So I got up at four o'clock and bathed and started a fire. And I said, "It's warmer here than in your tent. Come around the fire."

Prabhupāda: Yes, and around the fire, it is very warm.

Gurudāsa: And it was a trick. And they came around the fire, and then we had saṁsāra prayers, and then I said, "Now stay here and chant." So they chanted. Then I gave class. Paṇḍāl is simple. I have not spent elaborately on it.

Prabhupāda: No, why? There is no need.

Gurudāsa: And we're having display, book table, membership table, and cinema is showing at night.

Prabhupāda: So how people come?

Gurudāsa: Some people come, but I think once we start our saṅkīrtana and leaflets . . . the melā officials said, "We put you there because you will draw, and others will not. People will want to come to you, so they will make an effort to come to you."

Prabhupāda: But there is easy way to come?

Gurudāsa: It's not that difficult. It's just a little distant. Some people were coming. Cars can come also. If they want to come, they can come. It's not so far, but it's not so close. I wanted to give you a proper picture. I didn't want . . .

Prabhupāda: No, our former camp, last time . . . so this is not so good?

Gurudāsa: Location was better. But our living is better this time. Living is better, but location was better last time.

Prabhupāda: That location cannot be had? What is the reason?

Gurudāsa: Well, first of all, when I came they already settled it up. There's nothing I can do, you know. I said immediately, "This is not such a good location." And Bhāgavata said, "I did not know. I saw it on the map. I had no experience." So I didn't blame him, because he didn't know. So they said that "You will draw people, and so we thought we would put others . . ." I think it is political.

Hari-śauri: "You draw more people, so you can go out of the way."

Prabhupāda: Political?

Gurudāsa: Yes. I think that many people were pushing for good positions, and we did not push, and . . . last year was good, but, of course, the saṅgam has shifted a little. The saṅgam has shifted to the island where we are. The governor's camp is on the island. And there's some people. Maharishi is on the island. It's just I didn't want to say it's a wonderful location and then you come there and see that it's a little bit far off. I wanted to tell you . . .

Prabhupāda: Only it is far off.

Gurudāsa: And there's another slight defect, which is that it's underneath a railway bridge.

Prabhupāda: Railway bridge?

Gurudāsa: But with all the things that are going on, you can't even hear the trains. Now everyone's starting with . . . and we have the biggest microphones in the whole melā. Everyone's got microphones this big. And speakers? Speakers? Ours is this big. We've got the biggest ones, six of them, to point in all directions. So that . . . we thought we would make up for the distance. I thought I would make up by big speakers. We told Kamalapati Tripathi that "Yes, we are living underneath one of your railway bridges," and he laughed.

Prabhupāda: Ah, he's railwayman. So railway bridge there is sound.

Gurudāsa: Yes, but . . . when trains come by there is sound. Yes, there is sound.

Hari-śauri: There is electricity?

Gurudāsa: There will be, yes.

Hari-śauri: Big power points.

Gurudāsa: Yes. There will be two in Prabhupāda's and two on the paṇḍāl.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Gurudāsa: Electricity, he wanted to know. The thing is there's also sound with bicycles going. Bicycles also go across that bridge. So there's some sound. Not during the high afternoon, because people don't go out. And not during very early morning, but during the day there is. What do you think?

Prabhupāda: How can I think unless I see? (break)

Hari-śauri: If it's not suitable at the camp, Prabhupāda can go to the house at night and the camp in the day.

Gurudāsa: Yes. Even during the day he doesn't have to go except for darśana.

Prabhupāda: All right. Whatever you say.

Gurudāsa: Your area is completely enclosed, though, from the rest. (break)

(now on a walk)

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Where is this? One and a half hour?

Gurudāsa: One and a half hours. It is on the edge of Jhusi, past . . . way past the first pontoon bridge.

Prabhupāda: Pontoon bridge.

Gurudāsa: But they put up some more pontoon bridges also this year. Very far off. Actually, there's not very much near there.

Prabhupāda: (greets someone) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.

Gurudāsa: He wanted to be far off because they don't do any preaching. And we wanted to be right in the middle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is their purpose?

Gurudāsa: Their purpose is feeding a small group of sādhus that are in that area who want to be far off. Ekadaṇḍi. And they feed . . . the prasādam is good that they give. He was correct. It is . . . they are giving cāpāṭis and dāl to everyone.

Prabhupāda: Eating must be very nice, clean.

Gurudāsa: Yes. And respectable. We'll do it. (break)

Prabhupāda: I thought we could save the expenditure. But that is not possible.

Gurudāsa: No, we wouldn't actually save so much, because the time it would take for the devotees to go there to eat prasādam is three hours. And then the tents are not so good. It would mean a savings of six hundred or eight hundred rupees on tents, and . . . it's completely impractical.

Prabhupāda: And besides that, the Māyāvādīs. Eh? Inconvenience.

Gurudāsa: Yes. And they would not appreciate our preaching all the time.

Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī bhāṣya śunile haya sarva nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). Sarva nāśa.

Gurudāsa: If they have a similar verse to that, then they would be very unhappy.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Gurudāsa: I'm saying if they had, "Do not hear personalists' bhāṣya," they would become very unhappy.

Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) . . . that within the Kṛṣṇa's mouth there are millions of brahmāṇḍas, they think it is simply fictitious. Doctor, so you are feeling all right?

Dr. Patel: No, I just ran. I ran a little, so I . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, so why don't you sit down?

Gurudāsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, would you like to have an elephant to ride on one day?

Prabhupāda: Why? (laughter)

Gurudāsa: I heard—one of these "Prabhupāda saids" from one of the devotees—that you said that "If they can ride an elephant, can you get one for me?" Some devotees said that you saw another sādhu riding on the elephant, and you asked him, "Can you arrange like that for me?"

Prabhupāda: (laughing) That was joking.

Gurudāsa: Yes. 'Cause last time, in 1972, you and I were walking, and you saw the sādhus on the elephant, and you said, "I would put Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa there." I remember it very well. You said, "I would not sit there."

Prabhupāda: What is the use? (laughter) It goes like this. (laughs) (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Other sādhus I don't think.

Gurudāsa: No, others are. Processions. Others are naga. It is a procession thing. The nagas take them into the river.

Prabhupāda: When there was no car, elephant had some importance. And now they have got so many cars. (break)

Dr. Patel: Camels were used as they are now, for runners.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Gurudāsa: They still do.

Dr. Patel: They're better than the horses, don't get tired earlier. From Vṛndāvana to Delhi the camels were running. They used (Hindi). I don't know what they call it in Bengali.

Prabhupāda: My Guru Mahārāja purchased two camels. I did not . . . I do not know what happened, but he purchased.

Gurudāsa: I think Tīrtha Mahārāja was fighting with someone else over them.

Prabhupāda: No, it is long ago.

Dr. Patel: We heard a story in Mahābhārata that all travellers, they can go all the way to Hastināpura in a . . . (indistinct) . . . just when Abhimanyu was going for fight. In those days also they were using camels.

Gurudāsa: In Rajastan they use widely.

Dr. Patel: Rajastan is a desert.

Prabhupāda: No, Vṛndāvana quarter there are many camels.

Dr. Patel: Everywhere there is camel.

Gurudāsa: They're using camels at the melā. For carrying things they're using camels now.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Camels have long legs, you know. They go faster than . . . don't get tired as the horses do.

Gurudāsa: In the West they are called "ships of the desert."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They have wild camels in Australia even. They used to use them in the desert.

Prabhupāda: Wherever there is desert, there is thorn twig and camels.

Dr. Patel: Both. I think Australian desert is bigger than Indian desert.

Hari-śauri: Yeah. It's very big.

Dr. Patel: Much bigger, as big as Sahara perhaps.

Gurudāsa: Desert means deserted.

Devotee (1): I went to Makrana, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and I saw they had them hitched for plowing.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): They had camels for plowing. In Makrana.

Gurudāsa: Makrana.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Dr. Patel: Camels are used for plowing even in Gujarat, in north Gujarat. They use them on parks also.

Trivikrama: And they eat the thorny twigs.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their food.

Dr. Patel: Camels can eat everything except for . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Karmīs, they are compared with the camels. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).

Dr. Patel: I don't think, sir, there will be camels in Bengal, because all Bengal is rivers, so many rivers.

Prabhupāda: No. No, there is no camel. And unless there is that thorny twig, they cannot live. That is their food.

Dr. Patel: In Gujarat you find these camels right at the Surat, south of the Gujarat. In north Gujarat they are very common now, enfringing on the desert. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . Darjeeling we were hiring these ho . . . (break)

Dr. Patel: . . . were keeping mules. They were keeping mules in the army for that only, for the mountain working.

Gurudāsa: (whispers) Tape always runs out on places like that. (Hari-śauri laughs)

Dr. Patel: The British army used mules.

Prabhupāda: Mules, I have seen: if they stop, you can beat like anything; still, it will not move.

Gurudāsa: Yes. "Stubborn as a mule" is a proverb in the West.

Prabhupāda: I have seen. The soldiers are beating with the butts of the gun—still (laughter) not going. So many varieties of life we had to pass through, and with great fortune we get this human form of body. And that also we waste in the same business—punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), misguided. Labdhvā sudurlabham idam bahu-sambhavānte (SB 11.9.29). After many, many births this human form. People do not understand. Sudurlabham. Durlabham means rare, and sudurlabham means still . . .

Dr. Patel: More rare.

Prabhupāda: But the rascals, they do not take it very seriously. They think . . .

Dr. Patel: Such mules like me. Aneka-janma saṁsiddha sayati paramaṁ gatim. Many births.

Prabhupāda: Sudurlabham. Sudurlabha: it is not very easily obtainable. Manuṣyam. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān . . . (SB 7.6.1), durlabhaṁ manuṣya . . . Prahlāda Mahārāja. Somewhere sudurlabham, somewhere durlabham. Durlabhaṁ manuṣyam. There is no education about the importance of manuṣya janma. They have taken it that we shall die once. Who says that once born, once we get the . . . this and then finished? "Once life got." Some . . .?

Hari-śauri: Sometimes there's an advertisement in the papers, "You only live once, so buy this." They were selling . . . it was a land advertisement.

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they invent their theories. Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptir (BG 2.13), and these rascals says "Once." Just see.

Dr. Patel: The rascals have also realized now that there is a dehāntara-prāptir, because the parapsychology has proved beyond doubt so many examples recently, at present, that there is a rebirth. People who are reborn and know their past births—they have recognized their parents, their places and secret things also. There was a patient in Rajastan. One was in Northwest India. There was one in South America. They were all published in medical bulletins.

Gurudāsa: People accept them?

Dr. Patel: Generally . . .

Prabhupāda: Medical science do not accept the soul.

Dr. Patel: No. No, sir.

Prabhupāda: Then how it is possible, next birth?

Dr. Patel: They should have to accept. In the teaching of physiology, what we call certain vital forces which we don't understand, they are . . . this is nothing but God there. What is vital force? What is vital force? It's the soul, sir.

Prabhupāda: Vague idea. Not clear.

Dr. Patel: They will become clear later on. Slowly, slowly, the cloud is clearing away from them.

Prabhupāda: No, when . . . there is clear idea already. Nothing is going to happen, but because they are less intelligent, therefore next stage is when their intelligence will happen. Things are already there.

Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist of the world, Einstein, was a great believer in God, and he was a moral just like a ṛṣi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I have seen his picture.

Dr. Patel: His behavior was that of a sādhu.

Gurudāsa: Simple. He lived simply.

Dr. Patel: Not only simply, but he never worried much about things. When he was asked in Christian university how much money he would want paid when he first migrated to America, he said, "What is the standard of living here?" "Five hundred dollars?" "All right . . . (indistinct)"

Trivikrama: But still, the tendency is . . . Kali-yuga means their tendency is away from . . .

Dr. Patel: It is Kali-yuga for all of us—for the good and the bad.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga means mandāḥ. Mandāḥ—two meaning. One is "slow"; another meaning is "bad." So mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā (SB 1.1.10). Four times this word used: mandāḥ, sumanda-matayo, manda-bhāgyā.

Dr. Patel: But one thing about Kali-yuga is that by doing small amount of good work or doing little bhakti, it has a greater amount of benefit than you would get otherwise in Satya-yuga, Dvāpara or Treta. Is it not, sir? No . . .

Prabhupāda: No, good work or bad work, you have to enjoy, good or bad.

Dr. Patel: But in Kali-yuga a little bhakti will do much good than a good amount of tapaḥ in Satya-yuga, thousands of years or millions of years.

Prabhupāda: Bhakti is different. Bhakti is transcendental. It has nothing to do with this material world. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate (BG 2.40). That is bhakti. And karma, if you do good, you'll get good result, and if you do bad, you'll get bad result.

Dr. Patel: But if you are attached to the karma . . . when a person is attached . . .

Prabhupāda: No, attached or not attached, if you touch fire it will burn. That's all. This is karma. If you . . . just like child touches fire. It doesn't matter whether he is child or not; fire's business is to burn. Karmaṇā. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). So karma, śubhā-śubha saba bhaktir baddha—Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Śubha karma or aśubha karma, they are all hindrances to spiritual progress. In material world, good and bad, both are the same. Dvaite bhadrābhadra sakali samāna. Bhadra and abhadra. Bhadra means good; abhadra means bad. Sakali samāna ei bhala, ei manda—saba 'manodharma. "This is good; this is bad"—they are simply mental concoction. (pause) So Mr. Kapoor has sent one letter to take the key.

Gurudāsa: From where?

Hari-śauri: Kumbha-melā.

Prabhupāda: From that house.

Gurudāsa: Jagadīśa Prabhu can show me.

Prabhupāda: Jagadīśa has got that letter. So people are enthusiastic there about this melā? People are coming now?

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: How many men are found there?

Gurudāsa: When I was leaving there was about eighty thousand.

Prabhupāda: Acchā?

Gurudāsa: But they expect ten million. That's the estimate. Many camps, many paṇḍāls.

Prabhupāda: And store, supplies, everything is . . .

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Road is nice.

Gurudāsa: It's being improved. In some spots it's nice. But because it's on sand they have to always keep it wet, and they put metal plates down. They're trying to do it very well.

Prabhupāda: There is a Māgh-melā committee. One magistrate is the head. A regular committee for managing this melā.

Gurudāsa: We have contact with this committee.

Prabhupāda: And where is governor's camp from our?

Gurudāsa: I don't know exactly, but it's in the same island. I'll find out.

Prabhupāda: No, there is . . . our governor is Kṛṣṇa. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29).

Dr. Patel: All the Britishers were organizing this melā, kumbha. They were taking that much interest as the government was taking.

Prabhupāda: No, in . . . they were taking . . . the committee . . . I said that we have committee. This is British time. One magistrate is the head, and assistants, so many.

Dr. Patel: The governments of both nationalities are not taking any interest in that, only the Hindu officials, these British officers.

Prabhupāda: No. Our government, they have to manage so many people. The Nāgas . . . I learned it from Bhāgavatam.

Dr. Patel: Nāgas come from Assam, no?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Arjuna married the Nāga king's daughter. And he had a son.

Dr. Patel: Babhruvāhana.

Prabhupāda: No, Babhruvāhana is Manipur. He had another . . .

Dr. Patel: Ilavan.

Prabhupāda: Ilavan, yes.

Dr. Patel: Ilavan was the son of Nāgas.

Prabhupāda: Nāga-kanya.

Dr. Patel: Ilavan, Abhimanyu and Babhruvāhana. These were the outstanding sons of Arjuna.

Gurudāsa: He was a great fighter?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they were kṣatriyas.

Dr. Patel: He died in the war.

Prabhupāda: Babhruvāhana was adopted by his grandfather. That is called putrikā, putrikā-putra, "daughter's son adopted as son." So our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara belongs to this family, Babhruvāhana family. His title is Singh. That means kṣatriya. And they are Vaiṣṇavas for the last five thousand years or more than that.

Dr. Patel: Now all the Nāgas have turned into Christians. Only fifty years back they were headhunters. Fifty years back Nāgas of Assam were more or less like cannibals.

Prabhupāda: No, the headhunters means they were killing?

Dr. Patel: Yes. They would take revenge by cutting the head of the enemy.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that is . . . why they are blamed? Everyone is doing that. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: Africans also do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gurudāsa: Their uniqueness is that they display the head on a spear.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Any head.

Dr. Patel: And they dance, even as they do in Africa. Nāgas are very much civilized now.

Prabhupāda: Civilized?

Dr. Patel: In this way . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they were civilized. Otherwise . . .

Dr. Patel: Western civilization, I mean to say.

Prabhupāda: Otherwise, how Arjuna could marry?

Dr. Patel: Fourth-class civilization. Then they . . . (indistinct) . . . in Nāga races there is polyandry, sir. One woman can . . .

Prabhupāda: Still there are, in Himalayan hills. One woman has got five husbands.

Dr. Patel: Because they have got shortage of men.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the system is there.

Dr. Patel: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: I think in America also.

Dr. Patel: No, no. America is secret polyandry.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, one woman may have more than one husband. Is it not?

Gurudāsa: Sometimes. Not legally.

Dr. Patel: That is why I said "secret" polyandry. This is official. Some of the Himalayan states and Katwal, they . . . one brother marries and then she becomes the wife of two, three brothers. Some of that . . . (indistinct) . . . and she marries. That is legal.

Prabhupāda: No . . . in here also the system was if one is childless—husband is dead or could not produce—she can take help of the husband's brothers. Devareṇa-sutotpati.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Devareṇa means the devas . . .

Prabhupāda: Devareṇa-sutotpati: with the help of husband's brother to get child.

Dr. Patel: That is mentioned in old scriptures.

Trivikrama: But in Kali-yuga that's been . . .

Prabhupāda: That is forbidden. Kalau pañca vivarjayet (CC Adi 17.164).

Dr. Patel: And these children were raised . . . (indistinct) . . . very scientific way.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur we see so many pilgrims coming from Assam, Nāgaland and Manipur. They're having this Vaiṣṇava tilaka, Gauḍīya-Vaiṣṇava tilaka, and they also worship Caitanya Mahāprabhu. How is that influence also there?

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu went there.

Devotee (1): He went to Manipur then?

Gurudāsa: Wasn't it one of the times he was going to Vṛndāvana but didn't go, then He went to Manipur? Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: I do not know. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to go and preach in eastern Bengal. And His original paternal house is in Sylhet.

Dr. Patel: It is in Assam. Sylhet is in Assam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. His forefathers from Sylhet. Jagannātha Miśra, His father came from Sylhet to Navadvīpa for studying. Then Nilambara Cakravartī got him married with his daughter, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mother. And he resided in Navadvīpa.

Gurudāsa: There's one temple in Vṛndāvana where they have Deities of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityānanda that look like Manipur. They made His eyes like that.

Prabhupāda: That is not so good. If you make any picture, then you paint according to the people's, local people's feature. Kata catur anana, mani mani yāvat. Vidyāpati. You have heard the name of Vidyāpati? He was a great poet of Darbhanga.

Dr. Patel: Vṛndāvana?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Darbhanga, the entrance to Bengal from Bihar.

Dr. Patel: Darbhanga. "Door to Bengal."

Prabhupāda: Hardwar. "Door to Hari." Dwar means gate.

Gurudāsa: Someone invited me last year to Hardwar for the kumbha, and I said, "Why should I go to the door when I live in the house?" I was in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: We are not interested with the door. "You are doormen, dvar-men. We are inmates." That Vidyāpati has sung, kata catur anana, mari mari yāvata. Catur anana means Brahmā. They also die. And kata means "how many." (pause) So what is the amount of the bank that he transferred?

Devotee (1): Twenty-five thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: But I heard it was thirty-five?

Devotee (1): There was originally three fixed deposits. One of them was broken six months ago. We used it, BBT. So there was two remaining left for twenty-five. Originally there was thirty-six, and then one was broken. That's already been accounted for.

Prabhupāda: And our Madras center is now closed?

Devotee (1): Yes. There's no center there now. Mahāṁsa Swami, he's sending two men there regularly to help set . . .

Prabhupāda: Collect.

Devotee (1): . . . members, collect.

Prabhupāda: Kata catur anana, mari mari yāvata, nā tuyā ari avasana. You have seen Russian publication? Easy Journey to Other . . . they have printed.

Gurudāsa: They're going to distribute it on that train that goes into Russia. By the way, Śrīgarbha came to me and said, "I'm sorry for all your difficulty. I wanted to preach in Poland again." That boy? So he's going to deposit his wife and go to Poland.

Prabhupāda: Deposit where?

Gurudāsa: He wants to do it in Florida.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Florida is nice place.

Gurudāsa: Because he'll feels she's protected there. I said, "You'll feel that she is protected there, and then you'll have a free mind to preach?" And he said, "Yes, rather than in Europe." So I said, "All right." In your letter you wrote, "Let it go for now." Again you saw the future. But "Let it go for now." Then he came.

Prabhupāda: So we shall go down? No.

Hari-śauri: No, but we can. We have ten minutes still.

Dr. Patel: You're too early, sir. Ten minutes more. Fifty-six, six fifty-six. You go after seven, five. Temple will be too early.

Prabhupāda: There is walking facility?

Gurudāsa: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Water must be extremely cold.

Gurudāsa: No. No. In the morning the air is cold, but the water is warm, warmer than the air—very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The earlier you take bath, it is warm.

Dr. Patel: Once you dip inside. Otherwise it is chilly.

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Gurudāsa: It's very nice. The tap water also. Either in the river or in the tap, it's warmer. (to Mr. Patel) You must come and try it.

Dr. Patel: You bring me water from there. (laughs) (Prabhupāda chuckles) I don't mind coming. Whereas returning it will be difficult for me. You people will be returning after ten, fifteen days. I must come after two, three . . . (indistinct) . . . traffic will be so heavy that I may not get even . . .

Gurudāsa: No, you can come and go as you like, and you can be our guest. Because people are coming but not going, it was easy to go out. Everyone was coming, but no one was going. You can go out easy. We have a nice tent for you; warm water in the morning.

Dr. Patel: Is there sufficient number of trains to the melā?

Gurudāsa: We're putting extra trains.

Prabhupāda: From the melā the train starting?

Gurudāsa: Yes. Some going.

Prabhupāda: There is some temporary station.

Gurudāsa: Yes. And they're even making a temporary airport from the 14th on.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Gurudāsa: In Allahabad.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Dr. Patel: Allahabad has got an airport already.

Gurudāsa: Yes, but it doesn't function regularly. But now they're going to have planes going and coming.

Prabhupāda: Formerly there was airport. The place is called Bamrauli.

Dr. Patel: You must have seen all these places. You lived there for twenty years.

Gurudāsa: Thirteen, or twenty years?

Prabhupāda: Thirteen years.

Dr. Patel: That is sufficient long time to know a place. At that time what was the population of Allahabad when you were there? About ten lakhs?

Prabhupāda: No, not so . . .

Dr. Patel: No, less than that. Ahmedabad was only four lakhs' population before. Now it is twenty lakhs.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere the population is increased. Why?

Dr. Patel: People have more interest because of the industrialization.

Gurudāsa: They attract people. They think they will be happy in the city.

Dr. Patel: Not that. Because they get more easy jobs in the city. You see, jobs.

Gurudāsa: How can they get jobs easily, when so many people are lying on the . . .

Dr. Patel: It is at least they can have some food. In the small villages they're not having.

Gurudāsa: In small villages food grows out of the ground.

Dr. Patel: They don't want to grow. They want to just give up, go to here.

Gurudāsa: That is an anomaly, that's all. The monkeys . . .

Dr. Patel: I tell you, this vicious propaganda of the government . . . I have got a small hill, fifteen bighās, on a highway, Bombay-Allahabad highway, with canal waters irrigating my land and a well with pump and everything. Last year we spent nine thousand rupees on fertilizer and all things and other paraphernalia, and pay for the servants. And they got paddy worth six thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: Three thousand lost.

Dr. Patel: Because the prices was so down, you see, and fertilizer they are selling at a very high rate. Before it was available, a bag, for fifty rupees or fifty-one. Now it is more than eleven-ten. They don't want that a man in the city should be employed for less than five rupees a day. It's very expensive. And they don't work also. They used to work very hard in ancient times. Now they come at ten o'clock, go at five. Before they used to come early morning at this time, six, seven o'clock, and work up till five in the evening, and you used to feed them afternoon.

Gurudāsa: Use gobar instead of . . .

Dr. Patel: No, gobar is not that much available.

Gurudāsa: Gobar means cows. Get a cow.

Dr. Patel: We use gobar. All of us keep cows. But there is not sufficient for that. Have to go to godown.

Gurudāsa: You can eat six thousand rupees' worth of rice yourself?

Dr. Patel: No, you can't. (laughs) You have to have in the market. No, I cannot eat even this much, because I can't bring it here to Bombay. There is a barrier. You can't export from one place to another. This is the government. And our rice is just like the . . . (indistinct) . . . quality.

Prabhupāda: Jirasad.

Dr. Patel: Jirasad. You call it (Hindi) jirasad . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You go and eat there. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: But I don't go there to eat it. That is it, sir. These government regulations are very bad. I don't think they will be able to succeed in this way.

Gurudāsa: It's your own right to . . .

Dr. Patel: It's all the really that the India is spoiled by American policy, Mr. Dulles's. And he spoiled the pitch, this Mr. Nehru. Nehru, being a flamboyant, highly arrogant man, and this fellow was another arrogant, and they clashed. And then they supported Pakistan, and all the small things, and the Americans lost lot of money on these small wars, practically. I mean, instead of that much money was given away to poor countries this was not . . . (indistinct) . . . it was Dulles who got United States to this present condition. We should have insulated this country after svarāj—not selling anything, not taking anything. Produce yourself or starve and die . . . (indistinct) . . . people don't work when they get food like that.

Prabhupāda: I am simply surprised when I compare British days and nowadays. My practical experience—one of my maternal uncles, he's a very big, rich man. He was; he is not existing. So he was doing business, rice exporting. So in Calcutta, Chaitra side, he had big, big godown full of rice. Not only he, other merchants also. But now they are empty. Similarly, from Bombay the oil seeds are being exported.

Dr. Patel: Yes. Last year they exported so much of this groundnut. Groundnut oil was costlier than ghee. These government servants . . .

Gurudāsa: All of them. They export everything.

Dr. Patel: They export, I mean, rice, and rice is not sufficient. Now I understand they are . . . (indistinct) . . . rascals. And I called, them, some of them, rascal. He said "Who do you think you are? Guru?" (laughter) That actually is . . . (indistinct) . . . this government is really mad. I was a government servant in . . . (indistinct) . . . the way we were trained, you look up to those people in government. They were repecting us so much—men and . . . (indistinct) . . . Now this . . . if a minister has permitted a mistake, that the whole thing falls on the poor, I mean, underling officer . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So we can go? (end)