770122 - Conversation A - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770122R1-BHUVANESVARA - January 22, 1977 - 47:27 Minutes

(Conversation with Film Producer about Krsna Lila)

Prabhupāda: Jayadeva's, that poetry, that Kṛṣṇa is begging pardon from Rādhārāṇī, that is also very confidential. Dehi pada-pallava . . .

Indian man: Dehi pada-pallavam udaram.

Indian man (1): We have recorded songs, thirty-four songs, written by the ancient poets and Jayadeva.

Indian man (2): Vaiṣṇavas.

Indian man (1): All Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: People misunderstand this Kṛṣṇa's behavior with Rādhārāṇī and the gopīs as ordinary woman-hunters.

Indian man (2): No, no.

Prabhupāda: You say no, but they take it like that. Even a person like Vivekananda, he said long ago that, "This Vaiṣṇavism is sex religion." They misunderstand. So just try to understand. This līlā is kept in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in the Tenth Canto, and middle of Tenth Canto, Thirty-fourth, Thirty-fifth Chapter. So one has to understand Kṛṣṇa first of all. So it is not for ordinary men. So we discourage these things to be discussed or presented even for ordinary men. This is our preaching. It cannot be taken as ordinary film show.

Indian man (2): No, sir, he was taking it in different angle, that Kṛṣṇa as by these Vaiṣṇavas.

Prabhupāda: That's all right . . .

Indian man (2): That is the rasa. We are talking of the rasa-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Rasa . . . that is not for ordinary persons. It is most confidential. So this has deteriorated. Otherwise, so many gentlemen come here, and India, they are asking, "What is God?" This is the question. "Why God was killed?" Yesterday this was the question.

Indian man (2): We also came. We were also there. And Mr. Karana was asking nice question . yesterday evening he was here.

Prabhupāda: So in India . . . you are born in India, where God comes as Lord Rāmacandra, as Lord Kṛṣṇa, as Lord Caitanya, and you are asking, "What is God?" So how much deteriorated you have become, just imagine. So we are trying to reform all this nonsense business, and how I can associate?

Indian man (2): No, no, we don't ask your association. We wanted your blessing.

Prabhupāda: How can I give my blessing? It is . . . I protest, rather. I protest, rather. You should not present this.

Indian man (1): No, this is about the activities of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you said Jayadeva's.

Indian man (1): We have taken thus lyrics of songs of Jayadeva.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also dealing with the gopīs. Dehi pada-pallavam udaram. So these things are not ordinary things. You should understand that. If you make, propagate, then the people . . . I have seen one book one rascal Bhaṭṭācārya has written. And the United Nation or something like that supported, gave him, them, money. And in the cover of the book he has given a picture of Rādhārāṇī sitting naked. This is going on.

Indian man (1): No, sir, the pictures you were having, this rasa-līlā, this is also these visible things. We have seen those pictures.

Prabhupāda: No, but . . . no, that's all right. That picture is in the book. That book is . . . we are translating Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And what . . .

Indian man (1): No no, even in mandir there is a big photograph of Rādhā, puspanna, Rādhā rasa-līlā.

Prabhupāda: That is not presented in that way. So we do not say . . . but these warnings that . . . it is . . . we must understand it is very confidential thing. It is not for ordinary men. If we present as ordinary thing, that is distortion. Our . . . I have got stricture that we don't present . . .

Indian man (2): (showing picture) This is our . . . here. You made this. This is . . .

Prabhupāda: This is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. But generally, gopīs, rasa-līlā and gopīs vastra-haraṇa-līlā . . .

Indian man (2): No, no. Vastra-haraṇa is not . . .

Indian man (1): All is concentrated—the Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa līlā.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why don't you present . . .? Kṛṣṇa has so many līlās. Just like . . . where is our Kṛṣṇa book? You have got?

Hari-śauri: I can get a copy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is . . .

Hari-śauri: Any volume, or . . .?

Prabhupāda: That . . . Kṛṣṇa is killing Kamsa.

Indian man (1): That is the final līlā of Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Not final.

Indian man (1): No, we are having four things. We have an institution here. We are just presenting the Kṛṣṇa līlās part by part. First we are presenting the bāla-līlā, the children part . . .

Prabhupāda: So why don't you present Kṛṣṇa's fighting in the . . .?

Indian man (2): We will.

Prabhupāda: Just like Kurukṣetra.

Indian man (1): That is Mahābhārata. That is the part also.

Prabhupāda: That is also kṛṣṇa-līlā.

Indian man (1): For sure. So we have now produced three parts, and two more parts are there to be produced. (break)

Prabhupāda: Take prasāda. (pause) Generally . . . of course, I do not know what you have done. Generally they present rasa-līlā, they describe rasa-līlā. These professional Bhāgavata means they immediately begin to recite rasa-līlā. Bhāgavata reading dissertation means rasa-līlā. And people take in a different way that, "Kṛṣṇa was woman-hunter. He married sixteen thousand wives, and He had three hundred thousand gopīs, and He was enjoying with woman. Just see." I saw one doctor. He was a debauch. He was Muhammadan. So his friend came. So . . . in Calcutta. So he was addressing, Ki baba Kṛṣṇa? (How are you Kṛṣṇa?) Just see. Kṛṣṇa means debauch.

Indian man (2): No.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you don't mean, but people have taken like that. Anyone who is woman-hunter, he is Kṛṣṇa. This is going on.

Indian man (2): Therefore, Gurujī, we have started . . .

Indian man (1): This is the spiritual way we have started.

Indian man (2): Spiritual way, we started from that Vṛndāvana, with this Kṛṣṇa . . . ātmā, Paramātmā . . . we say that ātmā and Paramātmā . . . vaiṣṇava literature. Here we start. Then we'll go to that . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you start from this? Why not start Kṛṣṇa's birth, Kṛṣṇa's playing with cowherd boys, Kṛṣṇa's . . .?

Indian man (1): So we have that līlā. That is bāla-līlā.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): Then here Kṛṣṇa . . . the spring has come, and this is . . . you have got here the Govardhana-pūjā, and Kṛṣṇa's līlā with these cowherd boys, and they're going on. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spring they are going out . . . here, in Orissa also, in Bengal also. On the full moon day of Phalguṇa we get that goṣṭha, where all the cows meet together, and we get this. From that function we started. We have established that . . .

Prabhupāda: On the whole, my point is—it is a very difficult subject matter. So unless we very carefully deal, people will misunderstand.

Indian man (2): We have carefully dealt with . . .

Indian man (1): So we have given them images the superpower of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): It is not a question of sex. It is super divine power.

Prabhupāda: You say like that.

Indian man (2): No, no. We are presenting. I am presenting this way. That is superpower.

Indian man (1): When Madhu-maṅgala, when he was thinking that Śrī Kṛṣṇa is a general man and was for these ladies only, then he saw that viśvarūpa of Śrī Kṛṣṇa on the screen, all the universes inside Śrī Kṛṣṇa . . .

Indian man (2): All the universes moving about.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Indian man (2): We have taken that aspect, that He's a superpower.

Indian man (1): When he is thinking He's man, He's not the man. He's the superman.

Indian man (2): Also we have seen that . . .

Indian man (1): And all the universes inside revolving.

Indian man (2): That is our message. Kṛṣṇa is not ordinary. Superpower he is.

Prabhupāda: He's the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Indian man (2): He's the supreme power.

Indian man (1): We have produced this. Also we have produced things last ten years. Last, even Orissa, this līlā, Śrī Kṛṣṇa līlā, is very famous from the very ancient years.

Indian man (2): Not from the sex. That aspect . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . fourth, Thirty-fifth Chapter, when Parīkṣit Mahārāja was inquiring from Śukadeva Gosvāmī that Kṛṣṇa came to establish religious principles . . .

Hari-śauri: I just read that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hari-śauri: I just read that about a second ago.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Find it.

Hari-śauri: "Songs of the Gopīs," I think.

Prabhupāda: He pointed out this, that "He came to establish religious principle. How is that He danced with other's wife at midnight?" This question was raised by Parīkṣit Mahārāja to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, and how he has answered? Read it.

Hari-śauri: Says: "There is a distinction between Lord Kṛṣṇa's dancing with the gopīs and the ordinary dancing of living entities within the material world. In order to clear up further misconceptions about the rasa dance and the affairs of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, the hearer of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, told Śukadeva Gosvāmī, 'Kṛṣṇa appeared on the earth to establish the regulative principles of religion and to curb the predominance of irreligion. But the behavior of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs might encourage irreligious principles in the material world. I am simply surprised that He would act in such a way and join the company of others' wives in the dead of night.' "

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Hari-śauri: "This statement of Parīkṣit Mahārāja's was very much appreciated by Śukadeva Gosvāmī. The answer anticipates the abominable activities of the Māyāvādī impersonalists, who place themselves in the position of Kṛṣṇa and enjoy the company of young girls and women. The basic Vedic injunctions never allow a person to enjoy sex with any woman except one's own wife. Kṛṣṇa's appreciation of the gopīs appeared to be distinctly in violation of these rules. Mahārāja Parīkṣit understood the total situation from Śukadeva Gosvāmī, yet to further clear the transcendental nature of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs in the rasa dance, he expressed his surprise. This is very important in order to check the unrestricted association with women by the prākṛta-sahajiyā. In his statement, Mahārāja Parīkṣit has used several important . . ."

Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana this prākṛta-sahajiyā, they are making bhajana that a man, he thinks that, "I am Kṛṣṇa"; another woman . . .

Indian man (2): That is Rādhā.

Prabhupāda: "Rādhā." This rascaldom is going on.

Indian man (1): Others are gopika. It was also in Orissa also previously.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Indian man (2): That is gone. That is gone. Previously in that rasas, they get decorate oneself and Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: They have taken it as bhajana, to associate with other woman, and he becomes Kṛṣṇa, and he's Rādhārāṇī, and they're making bhajana. This rascaldom is going on. Go on.

Hari-śauri: "In his statement, Mahārāja Parīkṣit has used several important words which require clarification. The first word, jugupsitaṁ, means 'abominable.' The first doubt of Parīkṣit Mahārāja was as follows: Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has advented Himself to establish religious principles. Why then did He mix with others' wives in the dead of night and enjoy dancing, embracing and kissing? According to Vedic injunctions this is not allowed. Also, when the gopīs first came to Him, He gave instructions to them to return to their homes. To call the wives of other persons or young girls and enjoy dancing with them is certainly abominable according to the Vedas. And why should Kṛṣṇa have done this? Another word used here is āptakāma. Some may take it for granted that Kṛṣṇa was very lusty amongst young girls, but Parīkṣit Mahārāja said that this was not possible. He could not be lusty. First of all, from the material calculation He was only eight years old. At that age a boy cannot be lusty. Aptakāma means that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is self-satisfied. Even if He were lusty, He does not need to take help from others to satisfy His lusty desires. The next point is that although not lusty Himself, He might have been induced by the lusty desires of the gopīs. But Mahārāja Parīkṣit then used another word, yadupati, which indicates that Kṛṣṇa is the most exalted personality in the dynasty of the Yadus. The kings in the dynasty of Yadu were considered to be the most pious, and their descendants were also like that."

Prabhupāda: This is described in the śāstra. If one hears of the Yadu-vaṁśa, he becomes purified. And Kṛṣṇa is addressed Yadupati. Then?

Hari-śauri: "Having taken birth in that family, how could Kṛṣṇa have been induced even by the gopīs? It is concluded therefore that it was not possible for Kṛṣṇa to do anything abominable. But Mahārāja Parīkṣit was in doubt as to why Kṛṣṇa acted in that way. What was the real purpose? Another word Mahārāja Parīkṣit used when he addressed Śukadeva Gosvāmī is suvrata, which means to take a vow to enact pious activities. Śukadeva Gosvāmī was an educated brahmacārī, and under the circumstance it was not possible for him to indulge in sex. This is strictly prohibited for brahmacārīs, and what to speak of a brahmacārī like Śukadeva Gosvāmī. But because the circumstances of the rasa dance were very suspect, Mahārāja Parīkṣit inquired for clarification from Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Śukadeva Gosvāmī immediately replied that transgressions of religious principles by the supreme controller testify to His great power. For example, fire can consume any abominable thing. That is the manifestation of the supremacy of fire. Similarly, the sun can absorb water from urine or from stool, and the sun is not polluted. Rather, due to the influence of sunshine the polluted, contaminated place becomes disinfected and sterilized. One may also argue that since Kṛṣṇa is the supreme authority, His activities should be followed. In answer to this question, Śukadeva Gosvāmī has very clearly said, īśvarāṇām, or the supreme controller, may sometimes violate His instructions, but this is only possible for the controller Himself and not for the followers. Unusual and uncommon activities by the controller can never be imitated. Śukadeva Gosvāmī warns that the conditioned followers, who are not actually in control, should never even imagine imitating the uncommon activities of the controller.

A Māyāvādī philosopher may falsely claim to be God, or Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot actually act like Kṛṣṇa. He can persuade his followers to falsely imitate the rasa dance, but he is unable to lift Govardhana Hill. We have many experiences in the past of Māyāvādī rascals deluding their followers by posing themselves as Kṛṣṇa in order to enjoy rasa līlā. In many instances they were checked by the government, arrested and punished. In Orissa, Ṭhākura Bhaktivinoda also punished the so-called incarnation of Viṣṇu who was imitating rasa-līlā with young girls. There were many complaints against him. At that time Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura was a magistrate, and the government deputed him to deal with that rascal, and he punished him very severely. The rasa-līlā dance cannot be imitated by anyone. Śukadeva Gosvāmī warns that one should not even think of imitating it. He specifically mentions that if out of foolishness one tries to imitate Kṛṣṇa's rasa dance he will be killed, just like a person who wants to imitate Lord Śiva's drinking of an ocean of poison. Lord Śiva drank an ocean of poison and kept it within his throat. The poison made his throat turn blue, and therefore Lord Śiva is called nīla-kaṇṭha. But if any ordinary person tries to imitate Lord Śiva by drinking poison or by smoking gañja, he is sure to be vanquished and will die within a very short time. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs was under special circumstances."

Prabhupāda: It is not for public show. That is the idea.

Hari-śauri: There's a little bit more. Should I read it?

Prabhupāda: Read it.

Hari-śauri: "Most of the gopīs in their previous lives were very great sages, expert in the studies of the Veda, and when Lord Kṛṣṇa appeared as Lord Rāmacandra they wanted to enjoy with Him. Lord Rāmacandra gave them the benediction that their desires would be fulfilled when He would appear as Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the desire of the gopīs to enjoy the appearance of Lord Kṛṣṇa was long cherished. So they approached goddess Katyāyanī to have Kṛṣṇa as their husband. There are so many other circumstances also which testify to the supreme authority of Kṛṣṇa and show that He is not bound to the rules and regulations of the material world. In special cases He acts as He likes to favor His devotees. This is only possible for Him because He is the supreme controller. People in general should follow the instructions of Lord Kṛṣṇa as given in Bhagavad-gītā and should not even imagine imitating Lord Kṛṣṇa in the rasa dance."

Indian man (1): In our original language, in Oriya, there is a book, preface of the book Mahā-vandanā. This is written by . . .

Prabhupāda: Mahā-vandanā is a fact.

Indian man (1): No it's a fact. The preface of the book . . .

Prabhupāda: That is all right. But it is meant for the liberated soul.

Indian man (2): Certainly.

Indian man (1): Gurujī, I am telling you a single word.

Prabhupāda: It cannot be demonstrated to the ordinary person.

Indian man (1): No, one bābājī, Vaiṣṇava-carana dāsa, years back, he was at . . .

Prabhupāda: No. There are many bābājīs. Just like I told you . . .

Indian man (1): No, no. He wrote a preface in that book. The preface is . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . that he's thinking himself as Kṛṣṇa and others' women as the gopīs. They are doing that.

Indian man (1): No, no. Same thing. It has been written. It has been advised every time, time to time. This is . . . like the poison of the . . .

Indian man (2): Like poison of the Siva . . . this is in our language also.

Indian man (1): This is in our language also. This text . . .

Indian man (2): And he has observed there, Mahārāja, "Those who will act Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā, they should have sādhana. They should devotee. They should not take any . . ."

Indian man (1): They will be completely devotees . . .

Indian man (2): You have to go to that tulasī tree and you have to worship that fruit of . . .

Prabhupāda: My point is that for ordinary discussion, ordinary show, these things are not meant for. That is my point.

Indian man (1): No, we are just depicting the līlās.

Prabhupāda: It is not that they should be forbidden altogether. No. That is meant for a certain, for a high-class devotees, not for ordinary persons.

Indian man (2): Here they say that when you get to this Mahā-vandanā or Kṛṣṇa līlā, they take . . . (indistinct) . . . even any party. Even one Vaiṣṇava, he was getting a troupe and making that Kṛṣṇa conscious movement here. Or that some of this . . . the Suri Patel, he became leper. And the woman who was acting as the Rādhā, she also became the victim of leprosy.

Prabhupāda: So why should such take such risk? (laughs)

Indian man (2): No. No, no, no. What happened . . .

Prabhupāda: It happened, and it must happen. It must happen. So why should you take that risk?

Indian man (1): This is . . . we are depicting the līlā . . .

Prabhupāda: Any . . . anyway . . .

Indian man (1): You are telling, and your disciples are always telling about Kṛṣṇa's sacred līlās. So we are your disciples, and we are telling the līlā in different form. It is in vision. And we are starting from Sarva-bhumna or Sarvabhauma, Dampati . . .

Indian man (2): Sir, that is one thing. We started for keeping the traditions of the songs of the Vaiṣṇavas.

Indian man (1): All traditions of Śrī Kṛṣṇa līlā, all Vaiṣṇava—everything.

Indian man (2): One aspect. One aspect we have taken, that supreme, the message, that essence . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no . . . it is . . . Kṛṣṇa līlā is in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, why don't you begin from the first chapter of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1)? Just show how Kṛṣṇa is supreme . . .

Indian man (1): He's always supreme.

Prabhupāda: . . . how everything is coming, coming from Him. Janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāt (SB 1.1.1). These things explain by picture. That will be real education. Why you jump over on the Tenth Canto immediately? That is my point.

Indian man (1): No, we understand. We are depicting the . . .

Prabhupāda: Begin.

Indian man: . . . supreme aspect, supreme superman.

Prabhupāda: Just like one learns from ABCD, not jumping over M.A. class. That is my point. Teach people from the ABCD. So this is beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: janmādy asya yataḥ. What Kṛṣṇa? He is the original. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Show that by film, how He is sarvasya prabhavo. That will be . . .

Indian man (1): So He is always supreme power.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not . . . you are going to produce some film. Begin from the first chapter of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Why you jump over the Tenth Canto? That is kept very confidential. Unless one understands . . . by understanding nine cantos of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has no entrance. Just like you cannot enter into law college unless you are graduate. So Śukadeva Gosvāmī has arranged in such a way that one should understand what is Kṛṣṇa by reading these nine cantos. Then he can enter into the Kṛṣṇa's līlā and Kṛṣṇa's birth. What is the purpose? He could have given Kṛṣṇa . . . Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is for Kṛṣṇa. So we have named this, Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-katha. So first kṛṣṇa-katha is, Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gītā. Present Bhagavad-gītā. Then one accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality: sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he comes to that stage, then Bhāgavata begins. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2). Paramo nirmatsarāṇām, eh? Unless one is matsara . . . "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is doing that? Why I cannot do it?" The sahajiyā bābājīs, they do that. That is matsaratā, that "Kṛṣṇa can do? I can do." So he simply imitates Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā. And Kṛṣṇa can raise the Govardhana Hill—that is not possible. That is . . . what is called? Mythology. What he cannot do, he takes as mythology. And what he can easily imitate and go to hell, that is very good.

Indian man (2): Then here, this very assertion, to our eyes, that . . . our Mādhava tells about Kṛṣṇa. So we can't take it otherwise.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot take, but the public will take like that.

Indian man (1): Now, where Mādhava thinks that, "Give me the flute and I'll be the Kṛṣṇa," then he remains in the . . .

Indian man (2): Somebody is coming . . .

Indian man (1): This Viśva-rūpa.

Prabhupāda: No, our . . . just like we are making Kṛṣṇa consciousness propaganda all over . . . so from this . . .

Indian man (2): That, education, for want of education.

Prabhupāda: That is wanted. What is Kṛṣṇa you should understand.

Indian man (2): That is education, not propaganda.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these boys, they are advised to follow the regulative principle: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no fish, no egg, no onion. So many "no's."

Indian man (2): You see, that is also . . . (indistinct)

Indian man (1): No, Gurujī, you cannot take these persons who are by this strictness as your disciple only.

Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Yes.

Indian man (1): You should take us as your disciple even.

Prabhupāda: You should follow my rules and regulations—I can take.

Indian man (2): As you have advised that the sun doesn't only act on the fouls of purity. The purity is for all, even the . . .

Prabhupāda: But I am not that sun.

Indian man (1): We're also enlightened by your knowledge.

Indian man (2): No, no, sir. Definitely. At least light of this . . . light of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are giving it to all.

Prabhupāda: So . . . no, no. So you have to take the light and the sun—a process. Ādau śraddhā tato sādhu saṅgo tato bhajana-kriyā (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15).

Indian man (2): All right.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): When you are giving a darśana . . . yesterday we came to see you. That, these people had to go to Bombay yesterday. But when a certain uttered that you have come here, we were astonished. They ran to my office, told me that, "Gurujī has come." "No, you are wrong." "No, you see. It is from our local newspaper." So he came from . . . he's from Bengal. He came for us and told me they would let us go and see. By five o'clock they had told him . . . "Let us go." We came here, and there's some people here that center that I was talking to him. That engineer . . . when Gurujī tells that there is no rain, he was searching for the water, and the ground water survey . . . he is engineer of the ground water survey. So I was telling him that way. So Gurujī, when you are giving the light, wisdom, or making blessing that you become filled the superness. You surrender yourself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our propaganda.

Indian man (2): The surrender to . . . so similarly, suppose I am a drunkard.

Prabhupāda: No, it is no disqualification.

Indian man (2): Gurujī, my argument is this.

Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . .

Indian man (2): We are associated with the sādhus.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): All associated with the sādhu. That will clean us. As you have told us in this book, that becomes more cleaner. Your light is for everyone.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . no. We are prepared to take you also. Why not? It is not difficult. That Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when accepted Jagāi-Mādhāi, so Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura sings, pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo tāra sākṣī jagāi mādhāi. So the evidence is not that by words, but evidence, action.

Indian man (2): By action.

Prabhupāda: So how? How He accepted? When Jagāi-Mādhāi, after injuring Nityānanda, so Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very angry, that "I shall kill them!" So at that time Nityānanda begged, "Sir, You have promised not to take weapon in this avatāra. So excuse them." So as soon Nityānanda Prabhu said like that, both the brothers fell down on the feet of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Sir. Excuse us. We have done wrong. So please deliver us. We are most sinful." So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that, "You are sinful. That is not disqualification. But if you want My āśraya, then you stop. No more. Whatever you have done, that's all right, I excuse you. But no more." So they said, āra nare bāpa: "Bās, whatever we have done." So this is wanted. But if we continue to take shelter of Caitanya Mahāprabhu or His representative, at the same time continue our sinful activities, that is not desirable.

Indian man (2): That is not possible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Indian man (1): Gurujī, we are taking your life as our own way. We are taking it.

Prabhupāda: No, you cannot take in your way. That is not possible, no.

Indian man (1): But you are spreading it all through the world.

Indian man (2): Gurujī, my soul, when I surrender, it becomes the . . .

Prabhupāda: That is the first condition. You must surrender.

Indian man (2): That is surrender, the only thing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekāṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). Unless Jagāi-Mādhāi surrendered and stopped their sinful activities . . . that is wanted.

Indian man (1): But there are some ways. Even I am influenced by your ideas. That is some other thing. Somebody's influenced by your appearance. Somebody's influenced by your dialects.

Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of amendment.

Indian man (2): No amendment.

Prabhupāda: You can . . . yes. You say that, "Somebody does like, somebody does like, somebody . . ." No. Full surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).

Indian man (2): No conditional. Conditional means that we have may hidden here an enemy to fight over his property.

Prabhupāda: If I would have compromised, then many millions of students I would have got. Anyone comes to me—"First surrender."

Indian man (2): But Gurujī, kindly excuse me. There is Droṇa and Ekalavya.

Prabhupāda: That's fine, but . . .

Indian man (2): But if I have got the concentration, I can find you in me.

Prabhupāda: That is special case.

Indian man (2): That is special case. That is devotion. That is surrender, actually a complete surrender.

Prabhupāda: Still, you know . . . surrender . . . surrender, but he did not do it properly. Therefore Droṇācārya did not like.

Indian man (2): But he has got the devotion. He has complete surrendered to Droṇācārya.

Prabhupāda: You know that Ekalavya? He asked that, "You do that."

Indian man (2): Oh, yes. In the interest of the Kauravas and Pāṇḍavas.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, that means he did not like.

Indian man (1): But the superpower.

Indian man (2): I don't know. But what you think that actually Droṇa, er, Ekalavya is the disciple of . . .?

Prabhupāda: The general process we have to accept: ādau śraddhā. If you think that "This line of action is very nice, Kṛṣṇa consciousness," then this is called śraddhā. And śraddhā is explained by Kavirāja Gosvāmī, śraddhā śabde viśvāsa surila niścaya, kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva karma kṛta haya. This is śraddhā. When one is firmly convinced. Firmly. Sudṛdha viśvāsa.

Indian man (2): Sir, we have got similar in Oriya. Viśvāsa śunile kṛṣṇa tāte vata. Tāte vata is surrender. You surrender.

Prabhupāda: Surrender means full faith that, "Whatever Kṛṣṇa said is all right. I'll not do anything, and I shall simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa." That is surrender, not that one may be attracted by this, one may be attracted by this, one may . . .

Indian man (1): No, we read literature, and we are surrendered.

Prabhupāda: Simply I am attracted with the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. No compromise.

Indian man (2): No compromise. No compromise. There is no question of compromise.

Prabhupāda: That is not surrender.

Indian man (1): Gurujī, we must get your blessing definitely. In future we are . . .

Prabhupāda: Then, if you make conditional blessing . . .

Indian man (2): No, no. No condition. With full devotion, full surrender . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Best thing is . . . this is the formula given by every big personality. The Rūpa Gosvāmī, he is authorized person for bhakti-mārga. He says, ādau śraddhā tato sādhu-saṅga.

Indian man (2): We are so lucky. We are writing the letter . . . we wrote here that, "From distant land of Orissa, Gurujī . . . this is your literature has tempted us, and perhaps it is your intention that we should go upon . . . with Nitai Gaura . . ."

Prabhupāda: Just like our this Kṛṣṇa book, from the very beginning, or Bhagavad-gītā. You try . . .

Indian man (2): So eleven or twelve days' time . . . we have posted the letter on seventh, and yesterday this gentleman from here rang me that "You were searching for the Gurujī, and he is at . . ." "Nonsense." Really simply . . . when I am busy giving some dictation to my steno. "He is humbug." So he came forward, and from there we came here.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So if you want to give education, take it from the very beginning, ABCD, and present nicely so that people may . . . can take advantage.

Indian man (1): We have that līlā also, bāla-līlā. The children, childhood . . .

Prabhupāda: Bāla-līlā also will not be understood. They will think, "What is this?" That is stated in the Śrīmad . . . itthaṁ brahma-sukhānubhūtyā dāsyaṁ gatānāṁ para-daivatena, māyāśritānāṁ nara-dārakena (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10.12.11). Māyāśritānām. They'll not . . . they'll, "What is this nonsense? A boy is playing, and they are worshiping Him?"

Indian man (2): But when they see it . . .

Prabhupāda: That's it. These people will take like that, that "What is that? A boy is playing with some cows and calves, and these foolish persons are worshiping." They will take it.

Indian man (2): It is said also there. When Yaśodā tries to beat Him, oh, He shows the universe.

Prabhupāda: So who will understand that?

Indian man (2): No, no, no, no. All understand it . . . (indistinct) . . . all will understand, sir.

Prabhupāda: So beginning means from the Bhāgavata beginning or from Bhagavad-gītā beginning.

Indian man (2): But when Vasudeva is coming with Kṛṣṇa, and Yamunā goes out, goes out, and it makes a way and that . . .

Indian man (1): Years long back, Orissa was full devotees of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, long back.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I know that.

Indian man (2): Kṛṣṇa-līlā means when they read that Bhāgavata.

Indian man (1): Our grandfather, grandmother, they are more well read and well known about Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): Still they are living if you go to a village.

Prabhupāda: But your grandmother did it, all right, but now you are asking, "What is God?" This is your position. Your position is that you are asking, "What is God?" That means you do not believe what is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why you are asking, "What is God?"

Indian man (2): I tell you . . .

Prabhupāda: Now first of all, you answer this. Yesterday the question was "What is God?"

Indian man (2): The gentleman asked.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You say the Orissa is whole kṛṣṇa-bhakta, and he's asking, "What is God?" This is your position.

Indian man (1): He's asking to get a word from you, perhaps.

Prabhupāda: Why? Why this botheration if he knows Kṛṣṇa? I was surprised. If he's actually kṛṣṇa-bhakta, if he knows Kṛṣṇa, then why should he ask, "Who is God? What is God?" Don't try to defend in that way.

Indian man (2): No, no, no we're not defending.

Prabhupāda: If you know God, why should you ask, "What is God?"

Indian man (2): Unless he knows God, why he's not come here?

Prabhupāda: No, you are very proud that, "Our Orissa is very advanced in knowing Kṛṣṇa."

Indian man (2): No, no . . .

Prabhupāda: You just now told. And your Orissa man says: "What is God?" Just try to understand your position. You are advertising that you know Kṛṣṇa very well, and again you are asking, "What is God?"

Indian man (2): No, devotees.

Indian man (1): Kṛṣṇa . . . I mean to say that Kṛṣṇa devotees.

Prabhupāda: No, no, Kṛṣṇa devotee . . . you are saying that your Orissa is very much great advanced in understanding Kṛṣṇa, and your Orissa man is asking, "What is God?" This is contradictory. He does not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise there was no question to ask, "What is God?" Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). He should have known. But you have forgotten. Admit this.

Indian man (1): Oh, definitely.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore you have to learn from the very beginning. In foreign countries, Indian students, they say: "Oh, Swāmījī, what will be done by this Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa? We require technology." They say like that.

Indian man (2): Indian students.

Prabhupāda: We have rejected. Otherwise why there was so much talk, yata mat tata pat? Why yata mat tata pat? The Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa is saying mām ekam. And yata mat? What is this nonsense? Admit that you have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, or you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise why you bring this all question—"What is God?" "Yata mat tata pat," "Why Kṛṣṇa was killed?" Kṛṣṇa can be killed?

Indian man (2): He asked?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Who asked?

Indian man (2): That gentleman yesterday was saying.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why Kṛṣṇa was killed?" Just see how rascal question this is.

Indian man (2): He was not killed. Kṛṣṇa was not killed.

Prabhupāda: That is the fact, but he . . . why he questioned this, "How Kṛṣṇa was killed?"

Indian man (1): I was not there.

Indian man (2): Yesterday we sat here. (Oriya with other guest)

Prabhupāda: Ordinary question . . . Kṛṣṇa has advised in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, na hanyate hanyamāne śarī . . . (BG 2.20). This is for living entity, soul. And living entity is the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So the part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, na jāyate na mriyate. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. And "Kṛṣṇa, the supreme whole, He was killed." Just see the question—fun. Means he has no common sense even—"Kṛṣṇa was killed." "The part and parcel cannot be killed, but the whole can be killed." Just see his intelligence. If I say, "Not a single portion of this room can be destroyed, but the whole house was destroyed," what is this nonsense? Part and parcel . . . na jāyate na mriyate kadācit. Kadācit, this word, is used. "At any time." And "The whole is killed."

Indian man (1): Who can kill?

Prabhupāda: No, he asked this question.

Indian man (1): Who can kill the supreme power?

Indian man (2): Oriya Bhāgavatam also it is said that no one can kill . . .

Prabhupāda: No, the atheist class, they ask this question, "Kṛṣṇa was killed, therefore He's ordinary man."

Indian man (1): It is a story.

Prabhupāda: Not story. So you have to learn Kṛṣṇa. That is my point. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaya . . . (BG 7.3).

Indian man (1): (Oriya)

Indian man (3): That our grandfather, grandmother, all were addicted to Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. But we have forgotten it.

Prabhupāda: You have forgotten, so that now you are asking, "What is God?" This is your position.

Indian man (1): That is what happened now.

Prabhupāda: So you should know your position first of all.

Indian man (3): Gradually we are now developing, making drama, this, that. We are taking it just as if Kṛṣṇa līlā itself is a fact. It is a theatrical thing?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): In that way we are acting. That's why we are going to Bhagavad-gītā, this, that, all these things, only to . . .

Prabhupāda: Satisfy our senses.

Indian man (1): Senses. But not that.

Prabhupāda: So if you are serious, you let us combine together, learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness, deliver your country, as Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised, that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). The whole country has gone to hell. So many people come, ask me all odd question . . . (indistinct) . . . (break)

Indian man (3): Out of their . . . (indistinct) . . . this Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: . . . Rajneesh take poje ke? Ar amader shomosto prithibi te ekta wave . . . to o Rajneesh-fajneesh er katha shone ke? Oke jane ke? O beta dhristhta. (. . . who is following that person, Rajneesh? We have created a wave throughout the world . . . who listens to Rajneesh? Who knows him? He is a cheater.)

Indian man (2): Na keu shonena. Na, apnar ei je, ei rokom je paschim deshe jara . . . (indistinct) . . . korle, tara ei rokom kotokta article-tarticle pore idanim ami ja bollum ki eta to ami shunini . . . (Nobody listens to him. No, about your activities in the West . . . (indistinct) . . . after reading such articles, I said that I haven't heard about . . .)

Prabhupāda: Na, na apnake pratically dekhte hobe. Amader je Hare Krishna Movement, ekhon ekta combined effort hocche dekhun badha dewar. Tar karon ta ki? Amader bangla desh e bole, chaap porle baap bole. Ekhon etar ekta chaap anubhab hocche. Otake poje ke, ke jane ke? (No, no you have to see practically. Our Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement is now facing a combined resistance. What is the reason? There is a saying in Bengali that as soon as you put pressure on someone, then even that person's father will be forced to react. So they are feeling the weight of our movement right now. But who cares for that person? Who knows Rajneesh?)

Indian man (2): Yesterday one of my colleagues asked me, "What is this Bauddha dharma? . . . (indistinct) . . . started preachng the Bauddha dharma to other people and other people become concerned like the Buddhist. Why do we defend the motherland forget about it? But Swāmījī has started it not only Europe, America. It has started universal . . . except India. You said that you are educated man, you go and hear lecture . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, we are recognized by all educated circle all over the world. If you read the opinions of scholars . . .

Indian man (2): We have read many of your publications. And I was just telling him like dharma, that, "Swāmījī has done only one thing, that he has made the universe not only confined to India. He has made the whole world conscious about Kṛṣṇa, to know about Kṛṣṇa at least, the real Kṛṣṇa, or the superpower. He has made this point."

Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to progress very cautiously, very cautiously, not irresponsibly. That is our point.

Indian man (2): Recently I had been to Calcutta for the recording of this songs of the Kṛṣṇa līlā. (Oriya with others)

Indian man (1): Yaśodā and Kṛṣṇa. (Oriya with other guests)

Indian man (2): Unless they go back to Kṛṣṇa, nobody can help us today. All the frustration—everything, everything else.

Prabhupāda: Accha abar shondhe bela kotha hobe. (Okay, we will meet again in the evening.) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)