770126 - Conversation A - Jagannatha Puri

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770126R1-PURI - January 26, 1977 - 53:24 Minutes

Prabhupāda: And whatever plan he's making, it will be all frustrated. That is the whole history. Big, big emperor, big, big politicians, they have tried. Roman Empire, the Carthagian Empire, Greece Empire, Egyptian Empire and Mogul Empire, British Empire—all frustrated. It will never be successful. For a few days, hundred, two hundred years or five hundred years, it may go on. So real plan is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then everything is successful. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). These rascals, on account of false prestigious position, trying to be happy without God. That is not possible. Throughout the history you study. So many rascals have tried—the Napoleon, the Hitler, the Gandhi, this, that. What they have achieved? Nothing. If we honestly study their lives and activities, what they have achieved? Hmm? Do you think they have achieved anything?

Satsvarūpa: No.

Prabhupāda: They simply wasted their time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply wasting time. Therefore this is the best service, to revive Kṛṣṇa consciousness for the human society and send them back home, back to Godhead. This is the best service.

Gargamuni: And if anybody helps us, then he is also greatly benefited.

Prabhupāda: He is also . . . he becomes recognized by the master: "Oh, he is trying for this, what I want." Naturally he becomes immediately recognized—although he has no qualification—if he tries. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu . . . yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128): "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'—bās. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Śyāmasundara's daughter. She was preaching, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" They said: "No, I have got no . . ." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching, simply if you say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him." Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bās. Three words: Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, surrender unto Him and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hmm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvatī, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, those who are advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words that, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa"—bās, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words. Not sophisticated, but he must also understand, not blindly. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra, janma sārthaka kari' (CC Adi 9.41). He must also understand these three words perfectly. Then wherever he speaks, he'll be successful. Not that, "For you I am speaking. I can do everything independently." No. "I am also servant of Kṛṣṇa." Realized. This is realized.

Satsvarūpa: How does a preacher realize? How does a preacher come to realize?

Prabhupāda: He must know that he's servant.

Satsvarūpa: By hearing.

Prabhupāda: By practically knowing he's a . . . are you independent, anyone? Everyone is servant. He's serving his senses. That's all. He's servant. He's never master. But he has become the servant of māyā or senses. That's all. He has to change only; instead of becoming servant of māyā, be servant of Kṛṣṇa. Servant he is. Where he'll go? How he will become master? To remain a servant is his position. He cannot become master. That is false pride. As soon as he wants to be master, that is false pride. That is māyā. "So if I am servant, then I have to serve. So why shall I serve the senses' dictation? I will serve Kṛṣṇa, what He says." So he's self-realized immediately, within a second. Where is the difficulty to become self-realized? Hmm? Is there any difficulty? He must know that, "I am serving. I am never master—but serving the senses, that's all, whims of the senses in the name of independence." That is not possible. Very simple philosophy. One who understands, he's self-realized. And if he preaches, then he becomes recognized. On this principle we shall help everyone. "Come here. Stay with us nicely—nicely you can—but serve Kṛṣṇa. We take responsibility." Organize in this way throughout the whole world. Give them shelter; give them food; give them cloth. That is the most benevolent welfare activity in the human society. So here people have generally tendency to come to the beach to enjoy. "All right, we shall give you a place. Come on. Stay here. You haven't got to pay anything for food or lodging. Simply attend ārati, classes." They will do. "For experiment, three days' period, you see."

Gargamuni: Anyone.

Prabhupāda: Anyone.

Satsvarūpa: Even those three days they have to attend the maṅgala-ārati?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Maṅgala-ārati they must attend. It is not that sleeping, "goh-goh-goh," and taking free food. No.

Gargamuni: No. Even in Māyāpur we wake them up at four.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that must be. Why Māyāpur? Vṛndāvana, they are accustomed. Yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra . . . this sleeping is the māyā's influence. It is stated in the . . . yā devī sarva-bhūteṣu nidra-rūpeṇa saṁsthitaḥ. The Devī, this material energy, has captured everyone, and she is there . . . the more one sleeps, that means he's under the control of māyā. And the more he is not sleeping, he's free from māyā. Nidrāhāra-vihārakādi-vijitau. The Gosvāmīs, they conquered over three things, nidrā, sleeping; āhāra, eating; and mating. These things are the clutches of māyā. More we have sex, more we have eating, more we have sleeping, that means I am entangled. The more we conquer over it, we are free. That we have to try. Whether I am in the clutches of māyā or not can be tested: whether I am sleeping more, whether I am eating more, whether I am more sexually inclined. He can test himself. And bhakti means vairāgya-vidyā, to conquer over these three things. So practice this. They are . . . to rise early in the morning and attend maṅgala-ārati is compulsory. It is part of this education, spiritual education. And not to eat more than necessary. Then you'll not sleep more. You'll find, if you observe fast, you won't feel sleepy. Have you tested this?

Gargamuni: Yes. I can remember.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Ekādaśī. One day or two days in the month he should practice fasting, and then he'll be able to conquer over these things. These are all practical. So we should practice ourself and teach others. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if he thinks that he's quite all right in this material atmosphere, then he's doomed. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti. That means aprāpya mām—without achieving Kṛṣṇa—nivartante—again he goes back—mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3)—the cycle of birth and death. Take one birth, suffer, again take another body, again take another body, another body. There are four hundred . . . eight million, four hundred . . . that's all. Sometimes so-called happiness, he is born as demigod; sometimes as dog, sometimes as insect, sometimes as tree. What is this business? "I am eternal. Why shall I suffer this?" This is sense. They are simply trying how to become a hog, how to become a dog, or how to become a God. God you cannot become. You may have some partial happiness just like the demigods. They have got power. They have got high standard of living. But that does not mean the solution of the problem. Solution of problem means no more birth, no more death. That is solution. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). That is solution. If he remains in the birth-and-death cycle, that is not solution of material problem. Who can understand this science? They have accepted birth and death. But birth they do not believe. They think accidentally it grows within the womb, a lump of matter, and at a certain stage there is life. This is their . . . do they not think like that?

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: Fetus. By sex there is some reaction of flesh and blood and something comes out.

Gargamuni: Chemical reaction.

Prabhupāda: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kāma-haitukam (BG 16.8). "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the bodily form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition for the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No. But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and they are dying. Their primary problem—where to live, how to eat, how to cover—that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?

Satsvarūpa: Some people don't like to live in the community.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: Some people, they don't want to join . . .

Prabhupāda: Community, if you don't, you independently live. But this is the principle.

Satsvarūpa: Yes. They can do that in their house. They can live in their house and do all that.

Prabhupāda: Wherever you live, this is the principle.

Gargamuni: There are many people who are doing that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?

Gargamuni: They are offering their food, they have . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question. Community means to help one another. If you can help yourself, do it.

Satsvarūpa: But at least meet with us for training, for classes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is training. Community means I learn from you; you learn from the principles. But if you don't like community, you do it yourself. But this is opportunity. You learn it, sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association of . . . and we must be sādhus. If we are also dogs and hogs, what they will learn?

Gargamuni: Rāmeśvara told me that in ISKCON mail order there are many people outside who are following. They are offering their food, having kīrtanas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many bibliograph. Is it not? So-called scholar?

Satsvarūpa: Footnotes, bibliography.

Prabhupāda: Footnote scholar they are now.

Satsvarūpa: One professor, I showed him your book. He said: "This is not a scholarly book. It has no footnotes." His definition. Simply looked for the footnotes.

Gargamuni: I met one professor in Lucknow University. From his own self he purchased all of your books. And I asked him, "Can you help us to meet more professors in Lucknow University who also can take?" He said: "They are all debauch."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gargamuni: He said: "They are all debauch."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: He said: "They are in the bar." He says they all go to the hotel. He said: "They get paid high salary. They go to the hotel, they drink and they have prostitute." He told me this.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Gargamuni: I said: "Just see." And these are so-called big professors . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: . . . authors of books. He said: "They will not purchase." He said: "But I think these are valuable. Therefore I am purchasing." He told me this.

Prabhupāda: This is the fact.

Gargamuni: So all of these men are nonsense. But people accept their . . .

Prabhupāda: So we have no business to print other books of Gosvāmī literature.

Satsvarūpa: To cater to them.

Prabhupāda: That is not required.

Gargamuni: They won't follow, anyway.

Prabhupāda: These two books, Bhāgavata and Bhagavad-gītā, if they actually read and assimilate, their life will be successful. So we want to organize widespread publicity of these books. They'll be benefited.

Satsvarūpa: I think one important principle in this individual book-selling will be a science to find out of all the masses people, the likelier people . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . but they will explain immediately. Explain immediately. Say so many things. One man becomes blind. They will explain, "This happened and, oh, that . . ." But why don't you replace it? This is going on.

Satsvarūpa: When there is a big earthquake, they will come out and say, "This happened. The earth."

Prabhupāda: "This happened, this happened, this happened." And therefore in Bengal it is said, pāgale ki nā bale chāgale ki nā khāya: "The madman, what he does not say, and a goat, what he does not eat?"

Gurukṛpā: Madman?

Prabhupāda: What does he not say?

Satsvarūpa: He'll say anything.

Prabhupāda: He says anything nonsense. Everything they will immediately explain, "It is this." Why this color? "And this electron and . . ." What is called? Proton? No? What are the names?

Satsvarūpa: Electron, proton, neutron?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They have got another invention. Die-N-E. What is called?

Gargamuni: DNA?

Prabhupāda: DNA. In explaining, they are very expert. And if you know what is that, then why don't you replace it? What is that DNA nonsense? Put it into use. In the classroom they'll make, "This DNA is going this way, that way . . ." Now, who has made this arrangement, exactly going in the same way? You cannot manufacture either DNA and the movements also. Actually it is very wonderful things are going on.

Satsvarūpa: Any explanation except Kṛṣṇa. They give some alternative explanation than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is their aim, no God.

Satsvarūpa: Now these psychiatrists are doing that with our Hare Kṛṣṇa. They say: "When these people . . . they take to Hare Kṛṣṇa because of this, because of that, and when they chant this happens in their brain, and this is happening." They don't believe that it is anything transcendental.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They say that, "There is a brain. There is a tissue. There is cerebrum. On account of, they are thinking spiritually. Otherwise if it is cut off, there will be no more opportunity." They'll do that, brain operation. And whatever nonsense they will do, they will accept.

Gurukṛpā: They have electric.

Satsvarūpa: Electric shock.

Prabhupāda: Dangerous community. These scientists, the so-called, they are dangerous community. Now, if five ounce sight is not there, "No, it should be operated. Then he will be cured." And actually it is happening. In the hospitals they make all kinds of experiment, and if you say: "No, why you are doing that? The patient is suffering," "We must execute our science. So long the life is there we shall try to save him." They say like that. They will go on with all nonsense activity, and if you want to stop them, they will say: "No, our science has got so . . ." They take in writing that, "Whatever we shall do, you cannot object," hospital. It is a place of demons. And as soon as they get a patient who will not protest, they'll make it, they'll make it, and operation. No medicine, simply operate.

Gurukṛpā: What they do is now they make . . . what they've been doing is they have all these pills, and they give them to people to experiment, to see what the reaction is.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is going on. Big, big patent medicine, they will explain scientifically and give to the doctors and make experiment, and though they will go on making experiment. I know it. This is their business. They'll write, they will call for the medical students—they have learned new, new words—and they'll pay to make a literature with bombastic scientific word, and they'll prepare literature. This literature will be distributed and give their medicine, and they may pay them for false propaganda. This is going on to introduce new patent medicine. I know that. Simply water they will inject to get money. The patients have come, innocent, illiterate—"How want to be . . .? Do you want to be cured very quickly or little less?" He's a laborer. He says: "Yes, sir, if you cure me." "So then injection will be required." He has no disease, and they'll give some water injection, yes, and take fee. Because as soon as there is question of injection, he'll charge at least four rupees, five rupees. He has no disease. They will inject water and take four, five rupees. In India I have seen.

Gurukṛpā: If you need . . . if you have one infection in America, you know what you need—some penicillin, something to kill the infection. But the doctor will have to make all sorts of experiments to tell you what you already know.

Prabhupāda: "You first of all give so much blood. So much give me, and then . . ."

Gurukṛpā: Yes. And charge you fifty dollars.

Prabhupāda: Regular business. It is very difficult to consult with a doctor.

Gurukṛpā: And I saw the dentist. He tried to ruin one of my tooth so he could do work on that also and make more money. He tried to damage the teeth.

Prabhupāda: Money is the only aim. And they will talk all nonsense and make experiment, especially in the Western countries. Here also they have got now money-making sight. Lawyers also. Any . . . I have seen in our relatives, big, big rich men. The brothers may sit down and make some . . . my father-in-law did that. They sat down, and they were two brothers, and divided his property and got, two days. But those who are rascals, they go to lawyer and continually meeting—his man, his man. In this way the whole property is sold. And they get out with this. That's all. I have seen so many cases. Then the property division means there is nothing to divide. Everything is sold, and the money was taken by the lawyers as their fees. I have seen so many cases. These real estate men? Real estate?

Gurukṛpā: Real estate.

Prabhupāda: They also. So many times they complicated our men. You know that?

Satsvarūpa: The first time?

Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll promise . . . you have got five thousand dollars. They'll promise hundred thousand dollars' property you'll get, and how it will be done, this scheme, that scheme . . . "We'll do this scheme, that . . ." Then they will take five thousand dollars from you, and they will say: "Now it is finished. Now bring more money." Then further made . . . that lawyer who was trying to give me a permanent visa?

Satsvarūpa: Yeah, some Greek name.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Fishlington or something like that.

Satsvarūpa: Mitralanti or something.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So he was taking every fortnightly 150 dollars by telephone, and Rāyarāma, he was paying. He took about five hundred, six hundred dollars and did not do anything, simply extending the date. The lawyers will plunder. The government men will plunder. The physician will plunder. Ordinary dealing, they will plunder. The shopkeepers will plunder. The . . . and bank will say that, "You take money. You pay your bills. We'll give you loan, we'll charge interest." And when you get your salary, then you have to deposit it in the bank, and they'll adjust—and again you are penniless; again you take loan. The social arrangement is so made that you simply depend on loan. And to earn this money you'll have to go five hundred miles away from your home, early in the morning, in the car.

Gurukṛpā: And in the train.

Prabhupāda: Train also. So how you can be happy? This is their civilization. You study. I have studied in your country, everywhere. This is civilization.

Gurukṛpā: Our printing man from Dai Nippon . . . the printing man who was doing our book from Dai Nippon, he would come to the house at eight-thirty at night. And he lives . . . every day he travels two hours to Dai Nippon in the morning and at night another two hours.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Many. Why Dai Nippon?

Gurukṛpā: But this was eight-thirty at night he came. And I asked him, "What do you go?" . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Bombay. Bombay, Calcutta.

Gurukṛpā: I asked him, "What time do you go to work?" He said: "At nine in the morning." I said: "But it is eight-thirty. You have been working now eleven hours." He said: "Well, after I leave here, I must go back to the office, finish my work. I will be finished at eleven tonight. Then I will go home. And I will get home at one o'clock, and then I must get up at six in the morning to go to the office." So much tapasya.

Prabhupāda: There is a book, novel. The subject matter is that the man, when he goes out of home the child is sleeping. He has to rise four o'clock to prepare to take the six o'clock train. At that time his child is sleeping. And when he comes back at ten o'clock, his child is sleeping. So he does not know. So when he's grown up, on Sunday he's asking his mother, "Who is this man?" (laughs) This is the subject matter. They have written in a very . . . he is asking, "Who is this man?" When he was child, he did not see, neither inquired. Now, when he's grown up, on Sunday he sees that this man is very intimately talking with his mother. He . . . in this way . . .

Gurukṛpā: The poor man, his office is cheating him, and then his wife stays home and spends all his money, and he is being cheated by her.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He comes, taking so much trouble for the wife. He will lie down with her from eleven at night up to three o'clock. For that, that is home. This is his home. And to maintain this home, he has to take so much trouble. And this is civilization . . . (indistinct) . . . he does not think, "For this little happiness why I am here? Better to become a sannyāsī and live independently. Why I'm taking so much . . .?" No. And after working so hard, in old age if you ask permission from the wife, "I have done so much for you, for family. Now let me retire." "Eh? You'll retire? Then who will look after me?" The home member not satisfied, and you are not satisfied. You are working so hard—how you can be satisfied? And they find still insufficient income. They are not satisfied. But what is this home? To sense gratification. You are not serving this woman. Because this woman, as soon as she is not able to serve you by her sex, then there is divorce. Nobody's serving anybody, but everyone is serving his own senses. So actually the man is serving his own senses, uṣṭra. He's eating his own blood and thinking, "Thorn very palatable." He's eating thorn. What is his palatable? Cutting the tongue and blood is coming out, and when the thorn's chewed with this blood, it makes little taste. Blood has got taste. And he's thinking, "Thorn is very nice." Therefore they have been called as uṣṭra. Uṣṭra eats own, drinks or eats his own blood, and takes the thorn as very good. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara (SB 2.3.19). These animals have been specially mentioned: dog; viḍ-varāha means hog; uṣṭra; and khara means ass. How Bhāgavata has selected. (laughs) Śva means dog. Dog, after technical education, if he does not get a post where he can use this computer and other big, big . . . he's a dog. He goes to a bank, "Sir, I am expert in this machine work. Can you give me a job?" "No, no. There is no vacancy." Then again he puts his tail, goes another, another. What is the use, this? The big, big technologists, unless they get a suitable job, they're just like dog. Dog is loitering in the street, no food. So these men with all this high technological knowledge, if they do not get a proper master, they are nothing but dog. This is university education. So dog and hog. Hog means he can eat any nonsense thing, whole day working, if he gets sex—never mind whether mother, sister or daughter or any. You see the hog's family. They are very much sexually inclined, without any discrimination, and eating stool. This is his life. You see nowadays this man, he's eating anything, the hog's intestine. What is that?

Gurukṛpā: Sausage.

Prabhupāda: Very good food. What is that? Hog intestine. Hog is eating stool, and the intestine is filled up with the stool, and they have to clear it out. When it is boiled there is a so bad smell. And that is very palatable. And by eating, as soon as he gets little strength, then sex, without any discrimination. So hog. Śva-viḍ-varāha. And the uṣṭra. Uṣṭra I have already explained, camel. And then ass. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-khara. Khara means ass. Now, why the ass has been mentioned? And he's work with the washerman, and he loads tons of cloth to take him to the ghāṭa where he'll wash, and give him a little grass. And he'll stand whole day. And again load and again come. He has no eyes to see that "Grass is everywhere, every . . . why I am engaged in this washerman? Whose cloth? It is not neither my cloth nor his." But he is working, "Oh, washerman is giving me grass."

Gurukṛpā: Everybody is ass.

Prabhupāda: So therefore these four animals have been mentioned: śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ. And he is, this class of men, selecting a leader by vote, democracy. So this class man intelligence, just see. And what class of man he will select? And how we become to be. how we desire to be happy by such elected men who is elected by these dog, hog, camel and asses? Are there any intelligent? And you expect good government, peaceful state and . . . and the śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Therefore the others, they went to see the lion. So dog, hog, camel, ass will . . . "Oh, he's a lion." But what is a lion? It is also an animal, big animal. That's all. Similarly, the so-called president and leader and Gandhi, they are also another animal, big animal. So does it mean an animal big and very powerful, he has got the human intelligence? This is civilization. And when you say the right thing, that human life is meant for understanding God and prepare for the next life—"brainwash." This is life. To remain like hog, dog, camel and asses and go on, be engaged in politics and election—"Then you are right." And if you speak against this mode of civilization—"brainwash."

Satsvarūpa: They're especially upset when they see a young man join Hare Kṛṣṇa and give up—give up his career, give up going to the university.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: This is very destructive, they say . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: . . . that he's giving all his possessions to the Society, giving up his career or job and his plans for the future. And then they want to stop us.

Bhāgavata: Even in India.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Why you say, speak India or in England? The human intelligence is the same. There is no change. They have made like this, "East," "West" and "England," and . . . the psychology is the same. The ass is the same. The camel is the same. The dog is the same. We are talking of these dogs. Do you think that in Europe the dog is different from Indian dog? (laughs) They have created another problem. But we take, "You are all dogs. Either you be Indian or England or German, you are, after all, after dog. Your mentality is dog." They have created that "Indian dog is better than the English dog" or "English dog is better than German." What is better? It is dog. You are doglike, and hankering after some job in America and amongst Europeans. The Indians are all doing that, the same education. Recently, for a post of five hundred men there were three lakhs of applications. This is education. And you'll find uneducated Indian, still he's independent. You will find in Calcutta, especially we have seen.

Gurukṛpā: In the market.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In the morning they'll purchase a bag of potato. Say he invests twenty rupees. Nowadays he'll sit down in a corner and make two rupees' profit. He invests twenty rupees, and he gets twenty-two. He's satisfied, poor man. Then in the, say, ten to twelve he'll purchase some dāl. He'll go home to home. He'll make another two rupees' profit. In the evening he'll take some kerosene oil, and he'll sell. Evening everyone requires kerosene oil. He'll make another two rupees. So he's illiterate. He makes six rupees' profit, five rupees' profit, and if he can, ten rupees' profit. And takes some channa chor, some peanuts, sit down. In this way he's independently earning five to ten rupees. And educated? He's just like dog—"Give me job"—and unemployed, and eating at the cost of father or welfare activities, welfare department, and moving like dog. Just see practically. The uneducated, he's earning because he knows that, "If I go with application, what education I have got? Nobody will like me." He's hopeless in that way. "So let me try in my own way." And he's earning ten rupees. And the other man, he's starving and taking help from the government, eating at the cost of father. This is education. Otherwise he is becoming hippie. Is that education? And in the Vedic system—education for the brahmin: how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bās, education; a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight, "Go. Fight. Go in the forest and kill animals and lie, try again, learn how to kill." Education. Vaiśya—"Go to the field. See how the plow is moved, how to give protection to the . . ." Finish education. And śūdra, he has to work under the order of the master. Master says, "Do this," he'll do it. So where is education required, high education, university degrees? And the government is maintaining big, big building, big, big professor, and the professor is . . . what is that? You told me? Gargamuni was telling.

Satsvarūpa: Oh. All debauchees.

Prabhupāda: All debauch. Because they're getting good fat salary. What they'll do? They do not know how to use it. Wine, woman, restaurant, dance—finish. So we have got very pessimistic view of this modern world. You may like or not. Simply spoiling time. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Simply work without any profit of the human form of life. And nobody is interested to correct the procedure. If we try to correct them, they will accuse us that, "These people are brainwashed. They deviating these young men from the general procedure of human civilization." Hmm? What is this? Illicit sex stopped? Then where is life? This is life—young boys and young girls mix freely and have sex, and as soon as she is pregnant, you go away, let her suffer, no responsibility. The poor girl, long before, father, mother divorce—no protector. And as soon as she selects somebody husband, and as soon as pregnancy, he goes away. And old age—there is no family, no son. Ninety-nine percent the woman class live like that. How hopelessly the old ladies are sitting down—only one cat, one dog, one television. The old man also like that, hopelessness. Or drinking or seeing the television. And a dog friend. Is that life? And we want to correct it—"brainwash."

Gurukṛpā: They are so . . . they have no brain to even understand this. You cannot talk to them.

Prabhupāda: No, no, we have to do. Otherwise there is no meaning of preacher. Most thankless task. We want to save them, and they accuse us. My Guru Mahārāja used to give that example: A boy is flying kite, and he's going like this. He's just come on the edge of the roof. He is going to fall down. And somebody, "Hey! What are you doing this for?" (shouts) "Why you are checking me? Oh, my kite is gone, gone. I have gone back." This is going on. If you want to save them, they will accuse you that "My kite-flying is disturbed. Don't do this." And "Why you are. Why . . .? You'll fall down." "Never mind. That is my business. Why you are checking me?" This example was given by my Guru Mahārāja. You want to save him. Who is a gentleman who will not save him? He is falling down next moment. That is natural. But he is angry, "Why you have checked my kite-flying?" So it is a different type of civilization, a different style of life. If you want to introduce they will accuse you, so many, like madmen. And still we have to do. That is preaching. You cannot expect very smooth life in preaching.

Gurukṛpā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you've given the example of feeding a pill to a horse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nanda-kumāra: Your breakfast is ready.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Hmm. All right. (devotees offer obeisances) (end)