770425 - Conversation A - Bombay

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770425R1-BOMBAY - April 25, 1977 - 40:18 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . said that, "This is our mission. Now whether you'll cooperate?" We cannot make any compromise. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to have to hold regular kīrtanas and ārati.

Prabhupāda: You have to teach them. But so far these young boys who were there, they were very much impressed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they won't change their lives, I'm sure. They . . .

Prabhupāda: Why not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're impressed to the point of hearing, let's say, yes.

Prabhupāda: If they hear more, they'll change.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. It's just that I . . . you know, from our experience here in India, practically the only place that we've made devotees regularly is in Bengal. Other than there, we have not been able to make people give up their ways.

Prabhupāda: Why don't you say that, "We could not preach"?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's our own fault.

Prabhupāda: Why do you blame the other party?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's our own fault.

Prabhupāda: It is preaching. Preaching means to make Jagāi-Mādhāi a devotee. That is preaching. Simply talking big, big words . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well I'm enthusiastic to go there and to try and get these people to be devotees. I mean, I'm enthusiastic to do that. I'm just . . . I know that in order for it to work, they have to take it themselves. That . . .

Prabhupāda: Otherwise it is not possible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That was my only point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where we shall get men?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's the one thing we cannot . . .

Prabhupāda: That I have already clearly said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But I'm very keen to go there and to associate with the workers there, teach them as much as . . .

Prabhupāda: I am also going there for that. Otherwise . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it's a real good challenge. I mean, I feel it's a nice challenge.

Prabhupāda: Now the . . . we can see practically how the system of civilization is bad, that this Indira Gandhi, rākṣasī, she became exalted in the topmost rank, and she thought . . . a person who is equally good or more than her, he was imprisoned. Then how the system is bad, that a rogue comes to the topmost post and a good man is put into the prison? Is not the system defective? Imperfect? Some way or other, you can become very important, and the actually important man you can cut down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Envious system.

Prabhupāda: Animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Animals are envious also.

Prabhupāda: Envious is everywhere. So the whole civilization is so defective. Somehow or other you come to the power, and you do whatever you like, and the people in general will have to depend on such leaders for their welfare. How they can be happy? If the whole system is defective, how they can be happy? The same man, in one day he's very important, in the next day he's the most degraded. And the most degraded man, previously he was praised by millions of people, and next day he's condemned. That means who elevated her to the post, they're all rascals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ (SB 2.3.19). So what is the value of such election, and what is the value of such important men, where the whole system is condemned? Is it not the fact? Everywhere, not only in India. Not that the actual good man is on the head of the ruling power.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, rather, they look upon good qualities as weakness.

Prabhupāda: Whatever . . . that they'll achieve.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If someone is humble, they think it is weak.

Prabhupāda: Amake oi ekta . . . na, na oi ekta oi . . . (indistinct Bengali) (Give me one . . . no, no, that one . . . that . . .)

Indian devotee: Chyavana-prash, Prabhu.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian devotee: Chyavana-prash.

Bhakti-caru: Kheye nao osudh ta. (Take the medicine.)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhakti-caru: Osudh ta kheye nao. (Take the medicine.)

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Bhakti-caru: So Prabhupād caler jal ki ei saat-aat ghanta bhijate hobe? (So Prabhupāda, does this rice have to soak in water for seven or eight hours?)

Prabhupāda: Na, na ratre ektu bhijiye debe. (No no, just soak a little in water at night.)

Bhakti-caru: Kalke ratre ami bhejate bhule gechilam, tai bhor bela ajke bhijiye diyechi. (I forgot to soak it last night, that's why I soaked it at dawn.)

Prabhupāda: Beshi bhije (Very wet) . . . (indistinct)

Bhakti-caru: Ratre. (At night.)

Prabhupāda: So you are arranging for tickets for how many men?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The party is Your Divine Grace . . .

Prabhupāda: We are four.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are four. Then Pradyumna . . .

Prabhupāda: And his wife.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . and his wife and child. And Kartikeya Mahadevia and Yadubara. So including the child, nine. But I don't think we will need a ticket for him. We'll only purchase eight tickets, and if they demand it, then on the plane . . . on the train . . .

Prabhupāda: Kartikeya is going to pay?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I would hope so.

Prabhupāda: Why hope?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well I'm going to buy his ticket, but he's going to pay me back. I mean, he charges whenever . . . just like I sent a typewriter for cleaning . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. He is a gṛhastha. He must pay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean . . . no, I mean, he must pay. No, we're not paying for him. I mean, I'm going to lay the money out for him. No, I guarantee I'll get the money.

Prabhupāda: Another thing you say privately. He has got a bad habit. When I am speaking, in the middle he speaks.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This gentleman, Mr. Dwivedi.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Kartikeya. He . . . nobody should speak when I am speaking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Unless he's permitted. That is the etiquette. It is not ordinary talk.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Everyone should take note of this, and you can privately say: "You never speak like that. The etiquette is, when you are permitted by Guru Mahārāja, you can speak," not that, "He is speaking. I know better than him. I shall speak something." That's very licentious. It is not ordinary talk. The system is, unless he is ordered that, "You explain," then nobody can speak. And outsider, they may do. They should not . . . they also should not, but that is the system. And Viśvambhara may, if possible, he can come for one or two days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking that same thing, that instead of writing Akṣayānanda, maybe I should write Viśvambhara. Or both of them could come. Do you think it is all right if they both come?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was thinking the same thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda. So today I have to write a letter. As soon as the ticket is booked, I shall write a letter to Akṣayānanda Mahārāja. One copy we will send in the post, and the other we will give by hand to Nava-yogendra Mahārāja. I think it will be a very nice program.

Prabhupāda: And if the President comes, it will be very, very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that'll give good establishment of our program.

Prabhupāda: I can at least present. So, so many people are suffering for want of good leader throughout the whole world. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are in ignorance, and some rascals are leading them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think it would make . . .

Prabhupāda: And spoiling the chance of human life. Nature's law will go on. If somebody becomes next life a dog . . . there is possibility. These political leaders are like that. They are not trained up. Just like these dogs at night, they are very busy. Nobody has appointed them, but he is thinking, "I am in charge of this, watching." As soon as one dog will bark, all they, "Oh, gow! There is some important duty. Come on. Come on." And "Gow! Gow! Gow!" (laughs) And who has appointed him? They, all the politicians, are like that. Nobody likes . . . "Oh, oh, give me vote. Give me vote. I shall give you this arrangement." And barking amongst themselves, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Therefore I said that this United Nation is an assembly of barking dogs. Actually that is. They cannot do anything. What they have achieved, the United Nation?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wasting money.

Prabhupāda: And each representative of nation, they're talking day and night, and all, they have got their . . . there was a Mr. Mellon . . . and he was speaking, and he was showing. He fainted, and people took him, "Oh, he's such a good representative." And what he did, actually?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He fainted?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was the cause?

Prabhupāda: The cause was Pakistan and India. Pakistan is accusing India, and India is accusing Pakistan in United Nation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So when Pakistan accused India, he became so shocked that he fainted?

Prabhupāda: No, no. They were talking, barking. He was barking, and he was barking. One barking dog became fainted. (laughs) That's all. Nobody could achieve anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: They're simply barking, but this weak dog became fainted. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they praised him for that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Oh, he has talked so much." (laughter) I saw that these two dogs are barking only; one of them fainted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a picture in the newspaper showing the students going to school, and each one of them was shown as a dog with a hat, graduation hat on, comparing the students to dogs. There was a cartoon. Very apt.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they are creating so many dogs. "Can you give me any service?" "No vacancy! Get out!" And somebody becomes a . . . "All right, a bit of bread." And "Oh, oh, you are so kind." These śūdras . . . the number of śūdras have created this world situation so bad. (break) In your country also the farmers wants to go to the city to become educated and never comes back again. They are no more interested.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Actually, Paramānanda was telling me that, you know, he's made some very close friends amongst the farming people—not our own people. So every year he goes back to near New Vrindaban, 'cause he made friends with the local people there, and he spends a week with them, and Devakī-nandana also. So he says that now he helps them. Whenever he goes, he helps them with the farming because their sons are all starting to marry the girls from the city, and they're not so much inclined towards the farming work. So the father and mother, even though they're getting older, they have to do more and more work because the children are not helping them.

Prabhupāda: The city girl, she does not wish to come?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's too . . . what should I say?

Prabhupāda: They are not faithful wives.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. They want the cinema and all of the other things. They don't want to work hard. Farm life means to work hard. You have to get out and milk the cows, so many things. They don't want to do this. They want to stay at home.

Prabhupāda: Stay home and read fiction and drink.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And watch television. That is the great American sport, watching television. When Mr. Dwivedi and his friends were asking, I went over what our . . . I gave him an idea of what our menu would be. So he was saying: "So four o'clock in the afternoon will be tea or coffee?" I said: "We don't drink tea or coffee. We don't take cigarette. We don't go to the cinema." Actually I should have told him, "No onions or garlic." I didn't tell him, you know. We'll tell him when we go there.

Prabhupāda: You just appoint one local cook. There are good cooks.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: That dāl, roṭi and pudina chutney. If there is no vegetable, you can eat there nicely.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think there'll be any problem at all for the fooding. Actually, it seems to me it'll be a very good arrangement in everywhere. Simple but very nice.

Prabhupāda: If you can eat dāl, roṭi with little pudina chutney, that is sufficient.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: And at night little milk. Bās, complete food.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good . . . he has some . . . he says they only have pure ghee there.

Prabhupāda: That's it. Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I told him, "Cow's milk?" He said: "Yes, we can arrange." Everything he has. They have basmati rice. He says: "That's all we eat is basmati rice." Nice āṭā, and everything they say . . .

Prabhupāda: No, their climate is very nice. So you could accept it. If such things are available, now you'll get appetite and your health will increase.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually it's a fact. I remember that when I was traveling in Bhopal, and even in Bihar also, which is a similar climate—Bihar is similar—that I got a much bigger appetite in the summertime.

Prabhupāda: Bhopal is better than Bihar.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Better. Very dry. He is known to everyone for many hundreds of miles around. He's a very well known man because he's . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he is a sincere worker. Therefore he approached me. From Vṛndāvana, Gwalior is very near, within hundred miles. So Viśvambhara can transfer, come, come there to . . . to see. Let us first of all settle up. My this farming program, theoretically there is no comparison. But practically people are accustomed in different way. To bring them to the program it will take some time. Otherwise my program is assured happiness, happiness assurance, if they get . . . have your own food grown. Keep cows. Have your own crops. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That goes for all over the world.

Prabhupāda: Don't go to the city. That is my determination. The hellish city. In city nobody has got the opportunity for living in such comfortable place. It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy that we have got. Otherwise if you go to the Bombay city, even here, these pigeon holes, three small rooms . . . it is not expected that everyone will be able to live in such palatial building. That is not possible. Even they have no bathroom in Bombay. In the room, in the corner, there is a tap, and you have to go to the public well, latrine. This is the system. So whole family will take advantage of the corner tap and then have to go to public latrine. There is no bathroom.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No sewer system?

Prabhupāda: No, sewer system. (break) . . . each toilet for fifty men. They are in line in the same building. One after another you get chance. You have got dysentery, then it is . . . (chuckles) Then you . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have to take a bucket.

Prabhupāda: So nasty. You come here. (break) Vivekananda and so on, so on, so on, so on . . . if I had been in political power, I would have killed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hanged.

Prabhupāda: No, hanged. They are not guru. They are not missionaries. They do not know. They have no knowledge. And missionaries? You see? The so-called politicians, philosopher, religionists, rascals, distorting the meaning of Bhagavad-gītā. And yato mata tato patha. And "I like. Whatever I like, I can speak, and that is supported." What is this? Chaotic condition. There is no standard. We are giving the standard: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And Gandhi said: "Oh, how can I stop cow-killing? It is their religion." Just see. Such a rascal. "My religion is to kill others, and it should be supported by the government." Such a foolish man, they are on the government power. Parīkṣit Mahārāja, did he consider that? "So you are killing cow? You must be killed." That's all. Life for life. "It is my religion, sir." "Then get out here! Get out of my kingdom! Perform your religion outside." This is king. This is government. He said like that, Kali. You know?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "Yes, all right, I don't interfere with your business, but not . . . you leave my kingdom. Get out."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Kali said that, "You have given me nowhere to live now, 'cause in your kingdom there is no such place."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Therefore I say, get out from my kingdom. I don't care for your religion or business, but you cannot do within my kingdom." And that is king. If I have to flatter you for vote, "Yes, whatever you like, you can do. Give me vote," is that government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: I follow this. To accept me as guru I have to flatter you—I don't follow. If you want to hear me, then you become my disciple. Otherwise go to hell. Don't want. Here many big men came. And big men means the businessmen, big . . . I refused. "If you cannot follow the instructions . . ." When they are in office there is some income. Nanda, he is driven out from office after some time, at least twenty years. Then he was given post. Long time. What he has done? He has taken from Haryana government some crores of rupees and he has made his own statue, fifty thousand. He has made his own statue. (laughs) He appreciates his own activities. This is their politician. Just like our Bon Mahārāja. He has done so. He does not wait for his death. He knows, "After death everyone will forget me. So let my . . . let me make my own statue, a tīrtha in this āśrama." He wanted to . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a statue?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is . . . he has done. Like this Nanda has done this. And he's sticking to his whimsical policy. I wanted to mix with him, and I thought that he'll be useful. Useless. Mānava-dharma, "man's religion." I asked him several times that, "Is there any dog's religion? You have manufactured that." Religion means man's religion. That much he can do. Mānava-dharma. He is educated, intelligent, buddhi—with no brain. I have studied. And he's a good man also, but no intelligence. I have studied all these rascals. So long they are in office, by the power of office they are useful. Otherwise they are useless. Just like my books they are appreciating. They have never seen me. Not that because I am guru of so many disciples. They appreciate my work. That is real appreciation. "What you have done? What will remain behind? All for the . . ." Anyway, do something. Do. People are . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blowing?

Prabhupāda: Yes, blowing with mouth.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blowing with mouth.

Prabhupāda: So they have got business, blowing with mouth in three ways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The brāhmins.

Prabhupāda: What is that? First of all, if they are third class, then blowing in the oven, fire.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blowing in the . . .?

Prabhupāda: The oven. (laughter) He is third class. And the second class, blowing in the conchshell, pūjārī. And first class? Blowing in the ear and becoming spiritual master. (laughter) But their business is . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blowing.

Prabhupāda: Either here or in the conchshell or in the fire: first, second, third. This is a very . . . said three way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bengali language has so many . . .

Prabhupāda: Bengalis are very poetic. That's a fact.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very witty also.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes. Brāhmaṇera tin phuṅ. Phuṅ. Phuṅ means . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Blowing.

Prabhupāda: Three phuṅs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three breaths, I think.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are . . . we say, phuṅ. So this phuṅ or this phuṅ or this phuṅ. (laughs) Keep account how much you are taking.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: I think he wanted 150 rupees two ways.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Huh? Yes. So I say sixty, sixty-five rupees one way times three, because first class is three times the cost. So I'm giving him two hundred rupees per person, and he'll give me the receipt and change.

Prabhupāda: No, in the ticket there is price written. In the ticket.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the ticket, yes. And he's also honest man. But I will check. (long pause)

Prabhupāda: The reservations should be four. Three opposite. Throughout the car also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, no, no. We're going to get two full compartments, four and four. No, we're not . . . because I want both compartments full, because we have so much expensive luggage and machines, we could not let anybody else into our compartments, and they must be locked at every . . . that's understood. Rāmeśvara called you the other night, and we gave him the answers to our call. He said that Gurukṛpā Mahārāja was requesting that I write him a letter saying that they actually require the second $100,000 for construction.

Prabhupāda: No mail?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no mail today because yesterday was Sunday. (long pause) (end)