770622 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770622R1-VRNDAVAN - June 22, 1977 - 65:45 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Where are others?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall I get other people? Śatadhanya Mahārāja? (long pause)

Prabhupāda: That . . . find this verse, munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham . . . (SB 1.2.5).

Devotee (1): Munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'ham.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside) There's no index. It's not a new Bhāgavatam. There's no index in this Bhāgavatam. Munayaḥ sādhu . . .? "The Effects of Kali-yuga" chapter? Is that the verse, about the effects of Kali-yuga? No. (background talking, looking for verse)

munayaḥ sādhu pṛṣṭo 'haṁ

bhavadbhir loka-maṅgalam

yat kṛtaḥ kṛṣṇa-sampraśno

yenātmā suprasīdati

(SB 1.2.5)

"munayaḥ—of the sages; sādhu—this is relevant; pṛṣṭaḥ—questioned; aham . . ."

Prabhupāda: No? What is that? Sādhu? What is that? Munayaḥ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says, "sādhu—this is relevant."

Prabhupāda: Relevant?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what it's translated as, "This is relevant." Maybe a mistake.

Devotee (1): It's a mistake.

Prabhupāda: Munayaḥ?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Munayaḥ—of the sages; sādhu—this is relevant . . ."

Prabhupāda: The nonsense, they are . . . they are correcting my trans . . . rascal. Who has done this? Munayaḥ is addressing all these munis.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's addressing the munis?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sādhus, great sages.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Sādhu means they are very pure. What can be done if it goes there and these rascals become Sanskrit scholar and do everything nonsense? One Sanskrit scholar strayed, that rascal . . . he take . . . what is his . . .? Śacī-suta? Śacī-sandana?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya-śacīnandana?

Prabhupāda: And they are maintaining them. Different meaning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Bhavadbhiḥ—by all of you; loka—the world; maṅgalam—welfare; yat—because; kṛtaḥ—made; kṛṣṇa—the Personality of Godhead; sampraśnaḥ—relevant question; yena—by which; ātmā— self; suprasīdati—completely pleased." Translation: "O sages . . ."

Prabhupāda: Now here is "O sages," and the word meaning is "of the munis." Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Which is relevant."

Prabhupāda: Such a rascal Sanskrit scholar. Here it is addressed, sambodhana, and they . . . (indistinct) . . . it—"munayaḥ—of the munis." It is very risky to give to them for editorial direction. Little learning is dangerous. However proper Sanskrit scholar, little learning, dangerous. Immediately they become very big scholars, high salaried, and write all nonsense. Who they are? (pause) Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "O sages, I have been . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, they cannot be reliable. They can do more harm. Just see here the . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. We're finding out in the Fifth Canto that there're words that are so off, the meaning is completely changed, completely changed. I mean, in the three chapters that we read, Bhakti-prema Mahārāja made at least half a dozen corrections, of serious corrections. They had changed the meaning.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of the mistakes in the numbers, the figures.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah, they're all . . .

Prabhupāda: So how they can be reliable, so-called, this way . . .? (background whispering) Hmm?

Yaśodā-nandana: In the Gurukula we were teaching Īśopaniṣad class to the children. So we took original, maybe first edition . . . (break) . . . Prabhupāda and the words which the recent edition of the Press is wrong. Many changes were brought. They were trying to make better English, but sometimes, to make better English, I think they were making philosophical mistakes also. There is no so much need of making so much better English. Your English is sufficient. It is very clear, very simple. We have caught over 125 changes. They're changing so many things. We are wondering if this is necessary. I will show you today. I have kept the book.

Prabhupāda: I know that these rascals are doing. What can be done? How they can be relied on?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's not the responsibility of the BBT trustees, to see these things don't change without Prabhupāda's sanction?

Prabhupāda: And Rāmeśvara is indulging this. The great rascal is that Jagannātha . . .? He's there in Los Angeles.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha dāsa?

Prabhupāda: Maybe.

Indian devotee (2): Jagannātha-suta.

Prabhupāda: Jagannātha-suta.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No . . .

Prabhupāda: And the one rascal is gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nitāi.

Prabhupāda: Distorting. What can I do? These cannot . . . these rascals cannot be educated. Dangerous. Little learning, dangerous. So how to correct? The leader of these dangerous—Rādhā-vallabha.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rādhā-vallabha?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. He's a dangerous, who maintains these rascal with this work. He'll always have questions and alteration. That is his business. That is American business. They take that always. What can I do? Ultimate, it goes for editorial. They make changes, such changes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your original work that you're doing now, that is edited by Jayādvaita. That's the first editing.

Prabhupāda: He is good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is good. But then, after they print the books, they're going over. So when they reprint . . .

Prabhupāda: So how to check this? How to stop this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should not make any changes without consulting Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: But they are doing, without any authority.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think we should make whole survey, all books already printed, before printing the next batch, and check any mistakes so that it should be all corrected. Otherwise, if the scholars find out that there are so many mistakes in the books, then the quality and the appreciation will be reduced.

Girirāja: . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. We find so far that they are appreciating so much within the scholarly circle, and we want to maintain that actually.

Prabhupāda: Very serious feature. It is not possible for me to check, and they are doing all nonsense, freedom. (pause)

Yaśodā-nandana: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: What to do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Svarūpa Dāmodara's point, that all the books should now be checked before they're reprinted again. And they have to be checked not by some so-called learned Sanskrit man but by a learned devotee. Just like you always favored Jayādvaita because of his Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . .

Prabhupāda: Jayādvaita, Satsvarūpa . . .

Yaśodā-nandana: Bhakti-prema; Satsvarūpa is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Bhakti-prema . . . that's a good solution.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, the real point is that the Sanskrit is often not translated properly in the translation, what Nitāi and others have done.

Prabhupāda: He's a rascal. That's . . . he's finding out guru and job for filling the belly. That is the latest news.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is he doing?

Prabhupāda: To find out some job to fill up the belly. Otherwise he'll starve if he doesn't get any job. And he's finding out guru. Job guru. Now do the needful. Otherwise everything will be spoiled. These rascal editorial . . . that Easy Journey, original, this . . . (indistinct) . . . Hayagrīva has changed so many things.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He actually took out the whole part about their going to the moon being childish. He deleted the whole section. The whole thing. He said it is . . . (indistinct)

Yaśodā-nandana: Also in the Bhāgavatam, where Prabhupāda was talking about Lord Buddha . . . you mentioned that if the followers of Lord Buddha do not close the slaughterhouse, there is no meaning to such a caricature. That word was very nice. But in new book that word is not there any more. They have pulled the word. The meaning of the word is not . . . so many times.

Prabhupāda: It is very serious situation. Rāmeśvara is in direct . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think they're working too independently without consulting properly.

Yaśodā-nandana: Sometimes they feel that, "We can make better English," so they change like that, just like in the case of Īśopaniṣad. There are over a hundred changes. So where is the need? Your words are sufficient. The potency is there. When they change, it is something else.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's actually a very dangerous mentality.

Yaśodā-nandana: What is it going to be in five years? It's going to be a different book.

Prabhupāda: So you . . . what you are going . . . it is very serious situation. You write one letter that, "Why you have made so many changes?" And whom to write? Who will care? All rascals are there. Write to Satsvarūpa that "This is the position. They are doing anything and everything at their whim." The next printing should be again to the original way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should have a board of Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those two men are both in Los Angeles now.

Prabhupāda: So write them immediately that, "The rascal editors, they are doing havoc, and they are being maintained by Rāmeśvara and party."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes there's a fear that some word will be unpopular, and on account of a desire to gain popularity or acceptance, they lessen the strength of the word. They change the word. They choose a word which is more so-called acceptable. That's the whole thing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Same thing is with the Back to Godhead. Just publish some photo, try to change so many things in order to make it popularized. They have been doing that even with the philosophy. (pause)

Śatadhanya: I remember when Rāmeśvara was here, he had mentioned that in one article you had denounced the Christians strongly, so he said he left one part out because he was afraid there would be a bad reaction from the Christians in America. So that kind of decision . . .

Prabhupāda: That is possible. That is possible. He should be careful. Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think in addition to Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita checking the English, that Bhakti-prema Mahārāja has to check all the Sanskrit of all of the books. He's translating now, so as he's translating, he can check. He's going, starting from the First Canto.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I think this is very appropriate, because checking English doesn't have any meaning without checking the Sanskrit, the original.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was one verse in the Fifth Canto. It was impos . . . from the way that they translated it, there was no way that anyone could possibly have understood what the verse meant. I mean, it was made unintelligible by the translation. So we were reading. Finally Bhakti-prema says: "Wait a minute. This translation is wrong. They have added in an extra statement here that is not there, and it makes it completely not understandable." Then suddenly, when he corrected the Sanskrit, it was easy to understand. It was very clear.

Prabhupāda: So what to do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I think we just have to be slow but sure. We have to go over all of the books and make sure that they're perfect before they're printed again. Not be in such a rush—print, print, and print all nonsense.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One time I had a strong talk with Rāmeśvara Mahārāja about our article for printing in the Back to Godhead. I didn't want them to be printed in Back to Godhead because they made so many changes . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, he has dared to change yours also?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes. They change so many things in our article. And it was on the telephone. I was speaking to him in Atlanta from Los Angeles. And I told him that, "This article should not be printed because they have made so many changes." And I didn't like that. Then they answered that, "It has already been offset, and BBT policy is always to be rushing. It's always BBT policy." Then I told him that, "If you sacrifice quality on the strength of rushing, then it is your business, but that's not my way, so please don't print it." But in any case, they have printed anyway that article. And we all had a bad reaction.

Prabhupāda: So you bring this to Satsvarūpa. They cannot change anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ask Satsvarūpa . . . (indistinct)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we stopped writing article for Back to Godhead since then, because . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now, I think, with Satsvarūpa there, you won't have that problem of changing like that. He wrote a letter saying that one of his first things is that he will not change what is given there unless . . . he will not make changes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, if they consult us, even with changing, that's all right. But they just edit here and there and cut it out, certain things. They're changing the whole meaning. And that makes sometimes nonsense instead of making sense.

Prabhupāda: So on the whole, these dangerous things are going on. How to check it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There has to be strong philosophical leaders who can check this, like Satsvarūpa and Jayādvaita.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They have to also be included in the decisions of the BBT. It can't simply be that managers make decisions.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Without their sanction, there will be . . . let them . . . these all rascals.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: One time in that article they made a change. Saying that, the whole Vaiṣṇava philosophy became Māyāvādī in that scientific article. So I told them that, "You are better than . . . a better . . . (indistinct) . . ." It all become Māyāvādī, so it became all mad. That is why I strongly told them that "This shouldn't be the way. If you want to change, you have to consult with those who are writers." At least the article.

Prabhupāda: So they are doing very freely and dangerously. And this rascal is always after change, Rādhā-vallabha. He's a great rascal. (long pause) Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "O sages, I have been justly questioned by you. You questions are worthy because they relate to Lord Kṛṣṇa and so are relevant to the world's welfare. Only questions of this sort are capable of completely satisfying the self."

Purport: "As it is stated hereinbefore that in the Bhāgavatam the Absolute Truth is to be known, so the questions of the sages of Naimiṣāraṇya are proper and just, because they pertain to Kṛṣṇa, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth. In Bhagavad-gītā the Personality of Godhead says that in all the Vedas there is nothing but the urge for searching after Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa (Bhagavad-gītā 15.15). Thus the questions that pertain to Kṛṣṇa are the sum and substance of all the Vedic inquiries."

"The whole world is full of questions and answers. The birds, beasts and men are all busy in the matter of perpetual questions and answers. In the morning the birds in the nest become busy with questions and answers, and in the evening also the same birds come back again, become busy with questions and answers. The human being, unless he is fast asleep at night, is busy with questions and answers. The businessmen in the market are busy with questions and answers, and so also the lawyers in the court and the students in the schools and colleges. The legislators in the parliament are also busy with questions and answers, and the politicians and the press representatives are all busy with questions and answers. Although they go on making such questions and answers for their whole lives, they are not at all satisfied. Satisfaction of the soul can only be obtained by questions and answers on the subject of Kṛṣṇa."

"Kṛṣṇa is our most intimate master, friend, father or son and object of conjugal love. Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, we have created so many objects of questions and answers, but none of them are able to give us complete satisfaction. All things but Kṛṣṇa give temporary satisfaction only, so if we are to have complete satisfaction we must take to the questions and answers about Kṛṣṇa. We cannot live for a moment without being questioned or without giving answers. Because the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam deals with questions and answers that are related to Kṛṣṇa, we can derive the highest satisfaction only by reading and hearing this transcendental literature. One should learn the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and make an all-around solution to all problems pertaining to social, political or religious matters. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Kṛṣṇa are the sum total of all things."

Prabhupāda: Read.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: No. Yes. Here is . . . so this is the aim, that one should know Kṛṣṇa. And the human life is meant for that purpose. That is the distinction between animal life and human life. Therefore the next verse is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. Find out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhokṣaje

ahaituky apratihatā

yayātmā suprasīdati

(SB 1.2.6)

Prabhupāda: So life is divided into two—that body and the soul. Actually the soul requires satisfaction. So unless the soul approaches Adhokṣaja—adhokṣaja means beyond the sense perception of bodily understanding—there is no possibility. So we can start later this chapter. Next verse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Translation?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Next verse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Translation.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Next verse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

vāsudeve bhagavati

bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ

janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ

jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam

(SB 1.2.7)

Prabhupāda: So this perfection can be achieved by direct devotional service to Vāsudeva. Next verse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhitaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed yadi ratiṁ

śrama eva hi kevalam

(SB 1.2.8)

Prabhupāda: So unless one comes to this position, to understand Vāsudeva, whatever he is doing, or occupational duty, that is waste of time. It is waste of time in this way, that the body will change, so whatever he has done in this life, body will change. So it is waste of time. After the change of the body, everything is finished. Śrama eva hi kevalam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

dharmasya hy āpavargyasya

nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate

nārthasya dharmaikāntasya

kāmo lābhāya hi smṛtaḥ

(SB 1.2.9)

Prabhupāda: The dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa . . . (SB 4.8.41, CC Ādi 1.90). Generally people take to religion for improving economic condition. It is going on. They go to the church, "O God, give us our daily bread." And they'll go to the temple, "O mother Kālī, give me this. O father Śiva, give me this." So they take it for economic development, dharma. But that is not the proper way. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya. Dharma should be executed for stopping this material condition of life, apavarga. Pavarga. This material life is pavarga. Pa means pariśrama, hard labor. And pha means phena, so hard labor that foams comes. Pa, pha, ba. And still it is baffled, vyartha. Bha: and always fear. And ma means death. So pa, pha, ba, bha, ma. So dharma means to stop this pa, pha, ba, bha, ma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is apa . . .?

Prabhupāda: Varga. It is pa-varga. There are five vargas: ka-varga, ca-varga, and the pa-varga. Very scientific. A-pa-varga. And that is the meaning. But these rascals, they have taken to increase the pa-varga, that śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). The basic principle of dharma is wrong. Dharma is meant for stopping this pa-varga. And they are increasing this pa-varga. And the next verse?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa:

kāmasya nendriya-prītir

lābho jīveta yāvatā

jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā

nārtho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ

(SB 1.2.10)

Prabhupāda: So then question will be that, "If we do not get some economic facilities, so how we can live?" And that's a fact. Therefore it is said here, dharmasya hi . . . no. What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kāmasya nendriya-prītir lābho jīveta . . . (SB 1.2.10).

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kāmasya, sense gratification, required, but not for sense gratification's sake. It requires only for living comfortably. You try to make the economic development, that is all right. But they have taken simply for sense gratification. "I have got one car, and there must be another three cars for my children and wife." This is going on: kāma, increasing. Economic development . . . you require some occupational duty for earning your livelihood. That is allowed. But why more and more, more, more, more? For that, they are making scientific research how to satisfy senses. So kāmasya na indriya-prītiḥ. You require some sense gratification not for the senses, but because you have got a bad bargain, this body, just to maintain it, not more than that. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. So there are so many problems we have created. They do not understand. And this civilization are simply gratifying senses. So dangerous. And dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). And they create a position by very, very hard labor, and the body is changed. Then śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). What benefit you'll get? This life, you make a skyscraper building, three dozen cars, and next life, you become a dog. Then what is your profit? What do you gain?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Zero.

Prabhupāda: They do not know this. So that change of body is in nature's hand. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). That is not in your hand. When the body will change, you cannot say: "No, no, I'll not change," because that is not under your dictation. So is it not simply waste of time?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Bhāgavata says so clearly, śrama eva hi kevalam.

Prabhupāda: These rascals, they do not understand. This is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam . . . (SB 1.2.11).

Prabhupāda: That's all right. And therefore the civilization should be athāto brahma jijñāsā, simply to enquire about the Absolute Truth. And that is civilization. Now you can . . . whatever little we have discussed, you can discuss now and close our book. How wrongly the whole civilization is carried on, how risky it is, that they do not know. Now, what the materialist has to say in this connection?

Śatadhanya: They say everything is getting better.

Prabhupāda: What is that better?

Yaśodā-nandana: Well, a few hundred years ago there was no airplanes, no cars, no facilities . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but when you become a dog next life, then what is your gain? You are not going to use this airplane. You have to make a rest in this car, in this seat. What you are going to do that about? Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, most authoritative statement, and giving the example, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāram . . . (BG 2.13). So how you can check this dehāntara?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They argue that "We are getting people to live longer now than they used to live."

Prabhupāda: After all, you'll have to change. In a false platform, to live longer, is that very great profit?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, as we improve material life . . .

Prabhupāda: No, why is improved? You are going to be a dog, suppose. Where is your improvement?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's an illusion.

Prabhupāda: They lose.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are thinking that we are improving, but actually we are not solving the problems.

Śatadhanya: You said the other day that if we analyze what the scientists have done, we will see that they have actually done nothing beneficial; no benefit. Whatever they have done has no benefit, simply some comfort of the body. But what benefit it has?

Prabhupāda: Just like they have improved . . . a man is going to die. By oxygen, by other, other, he may live for a few minutes more. They say, "This is improvement."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's creating more problems.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, when we read from the Fifth Canto, the facility of life is so much better on other planets, anyway, so they can't even begin to imitate that other higher material planets, what to speak of the spiritual.

Prabhupāda: They do. Karmīs do that. They want to go there after death. Therefore karma-kāṇḍa. By ritualistic ceremonies they want to be promoted. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). By improving the sattva-guṇa, you can go to higher planetary system.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would that be considered more intelligent than the gross . . .

Prabhupāda: No. No. Because after all, you have to die. Kṣīṇe puṇye punar martya-lokaṁ viśanti (BG 9.21). Again you have to come down.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to tell them that, "We cannot completely negate the scientific advancement. We cannot simply say that what you are all doing is nonsense." At the same time, we can bring out that, "Yes, you are doing . . . making an attempt to find a solution or comfortable situation. It's not possible," that "There must be something beyond. It's not enough."

Prabhupāda: And that is yato bhaktir adhokṣaje. That is the first citing. There are two kinds of occupational duty. The one is inferior, going down, and other is superior, go back to home.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Satisfaction of the soul, Śrīla Prabhupāda just mentioned.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the Adhokṣaje.

Prabhupāda: Adhokṣaje. Yato bhaktiḥ. When you become a devotee, then you'll go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is required.

Prabhupāda: That is the aim of life. So everything is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And then these unfortunate rascals, they are distorting. What can I do? How to stop it?

Devotee: But they will argue, "Why should we accept that there will be a next life? Why should we accept that there's . . ."

Prabhupāda: Rascal, why you are accepting old age? You are young man. You have to accept, become. Why you are accepting, rascal? Answer this.

Devotee: I don't know.

Prabhupāda: So then why do you talk nonsense, "Why shall I accept?" You have to accept, nonsense. That is the law of nature. Do you think you'll not become an old man like me? "I'll not accept." You have to accept. So what is the use of saying like that, foolish rascals?

Devotee: So they must accept that . . .

Prabhupāda: They must accept. They have to accept.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: You are all young men. Who wants to become an invalid man like me, with three men I have to walk? Nobody wants. But you have to accept. I did not like. But you have to accept. Compulsory. What is the use of saying: "Why shall I accept?" You . . . "Why?" There is no question of "Why?" You have to. That is the control.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They might argue that . . .

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argue? I'll beat you with shoes. You have to accept. (laughter) What is the use of argument?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like a madman.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Nature will beat you with shoes. You have to accept.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll say: "We have seen old men, but we have never seen anyone change their body."

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "We have seen someone becoming old, but where have we ever seen someone actually change his body?"

Prabhupāda: This is not change? You are a young man; now you have become old. Then you have no eyes. You are blind. I was not a young man?

Devotee: But they will argue, "What is the necessary . . ."

Prabhupāda: What is the use of argument? You have to change. You are going to be hanged. There is no argument. You must be hanged.

Devotee: But why a dog's body?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, why a dog's body? We have seen that you became an old man from a young man, but we never saw a man become a dog.

Prabhupāda: So you do not . . . you live. You go along with him, you'll see. Change means that . . . that is their defect. The change . . . change means you have to accept any change, you see or not see. Tathā dehāntaram (BG 2.13). Deha, the body, will change. You have got eight millions bodies. It can change to any one. There is no question of seeing. The suggestion is that you have to change. Now, in which body you are going to change, that you cannot see. So how you claim that, "I cannot see"? That you cannot . . . there will be change. So how the change will take? Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1): by superior administration and by your karma.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Subtle law.

Prabhupāda: Subtle law.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Beyond physical laws.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, physical law. Just like worm will change into butterfly. You can see.

Devotee: Tadpole to a frog.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science accepts that all the cells in a human body changes completely in seven years.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Every seven years . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . all change. So change is actually . . .

Prabhupāda: So that change takes place according to your mentality. You are subtle thing, psychological. One man is thief. By change, he can become a saintly person. One man is saintly person; he becomes a thief. So that change, according to three qualities . . . Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). You cannot ascertain immediately, because you are changing from sattva-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to tamo-guṇa. So how you can be ascertained? But there will be change. That is fixed. So we have to take this word "change." So you cannot expect what changes. Are you going to be dog or hog or god? That will depend on your work. How you can expect to see that, "I do not see"? But that is not certain. There are 8,400,000's of different types of change of body. But you have to change. Not that you have to become a dog. You can become a demigod. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti . . . but change is certain. So if change takes place, then where is your position? Whatever you have done—śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8).

Yaśodā-nandana: They will say: "We can perceive all the changes during this life. We agree . . ."

Prabhupāda: And next life or this life, rascal . . .

Yaśodā-nandana: "Because the last change, at death, the last transmigration to another body, because we cannot see according to our scientific experience . . ."

Prabhupāda: So you die, what you will see? Your eyes are taken away. What you will see? You say: "I die." Then what you will see after death? A dead man has got eyes. Can he see?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they say: "How have you seen, that you are telling us what will happen?"

Prabhupāda: Seen by intelligence. (break) We are accepting everything like that.

Devotee: So they will say: "We accept there is a change of bodies. So then life is simply changing bodies. There is no more than this, simply . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, there is stoppage of change of body when you . . .

Devotee: How so?

Prabhupāda: How you . . . how you know? You are a rascal. What do you know? You learn it. You are rascal. What you know? You become intelligent. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). You are a rascal. What do you know? The difficulty is that you are rascal; you want to take the position of a learned man. And that is your fault. You do not accept your position, that you are a rascal.

Devotee: So first we must . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Devotee: . . . they must become a little humble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34).

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They must know that every knowledge-acquiring process requires certain conditions to be fulfilled in order to understand it, that those conditions have to be acquired. Otherwise it's not possible.

Prabhupāda: So that is the difficulty at the present . . . a rascal is arguing. What is the meaning of his argument? He's a rascal. It has no meaning.

Devotee: All procrastination.

Prabhupāda: So read Bhāgavatam very seriously. Then your rascaldom will go. Lokasyājānato vidvāṁś cakre sātvata . . . (SB 1.7.6). All rascals. For their knowledge the Bhāgavata was written. Mūḍho nābhijānāti, mohito nābhijānāti. The difficulty is a rascal is thinking himself as very advanced in knowledge. That is the difficulty.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the trouble with the scientists.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are creating greatest trouble.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They think that the destiny of man lies in their hands. Sometimes they say like that.

Prabhupāda: That is . . . yes. A rascal can become intelligent man. That's good. But without becoming intelligent, remaining rascal, they are living. Otherwise there is no hindrance. I may be rascal, but in future I may be intelligent by education, by . . . that is not checked. But the difficulty is that he remains a rascal and claims to be intelligent. That is the difficulty. That is the difficulty. We don't say that, "Because you are rascal, you shall continue to remain a rascal." No. You become intelligent. Take advantage of intelligent person. But you remain a rascal and claim to be intelligent, and that is they are doing. Little learning is dangerous. We say that don't remain rascal. Tamaso mā: "Don't remain in darkness." We say, we are canvassing. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is for that purpose that, "You are rascal, but don't remain a rascal. Come to the light." Tamaso mā jyotir gama. That is our business. But this rascal, he'll remain in rascaldom, and he will claim that, "I am authority." That is the difficulty. Take enlightenment. Bhāgavata is there. Bhagavad-gītā is there. And become intelligent. But don't claim to be intelligent while you are on the rascal platform. That is not good. That is suicidal. So very carefully read Bhāgavatam. Don't continue to remain rascal. Then life is successful. This is the Western obstinacy. They want to remain in the rascal platform, and still they claim. Is it not?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This theory that life comes from matter, it is not settled up. Still, they are getting Nobel Prize.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big amount of money goes with that prize.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Supported by all the . . .

Prabhupāda: Another rascal. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. He's a rascal, and he's appreciated by another rascal. This is going on.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even the government is behind this research. NASA and federal funding government, they spend billions of dollars on this research.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Then what is the government? Another combination of rascals, that's all. They have no knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some of them are also beginning to feel that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, that must . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . there is something wrong . . .

Prabhupāda: That must be.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: . . . with the whole approach.

Prabhupāda: That must be there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Like there is a physicist in Princeton. His name is Dyson, Freeman Dyson.

Prabhupāda: That is inquisitive, jijñāsu. That is there, a class of men, jijñāsu. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtinaḥ (BG 7.16). They are pious. "Actually what is the truth?" Jijñāsu. And jñānī. Two, third class, fourth class; and two, first class, second class. The first class, second class is jñānī jijñāsu, and third class, fourth class, ārto arthārthī. They approach God. The third class, fourth class, those who are in need of money or in distress and seeking the favor of Kṛṣṇa, they are third class, fourth class. And the jijñāsu and jñānī, they are first class, second class. Inquisitive, they want to know the truth. That is first class. Jijñāsu—"What is that?"—first class. He is second class. And ārto arthārthī, he is in need. If he gets some money, then he forgets God. That's all. His disease is cured. Then finished business. "O God, give us our bread." As soon as I get bread, then finished church.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes people join our movement like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the nature. But they are still pious, because they have come to God. And those who are very, very miscreant, they, at any circumstance, they'll never. Dog's obstinacy. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). They are last class.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Few years ago there was a physicist called Schrodinger, German physicist. He wrote a book called What is Life? for thesis. And he said life could be understood just like physics. Then this Freeman Dyson . . . he's a very renowned scientist in Princeton University. He gave a lecture in our university at Emory about few months ago. And then he was speaking about cosmic manifestations of the universe. And I asked a question about this Schrodinger's approach, saying that Schrodinger is a very well known and Nobel Prize–winning physicist. He stated that life could be understood in terms of physics and chemistry. I asked him, "What do you think about this approach?" His answer was "Schrodinger did not know at that time that the physics of modern science, especially quantum physics, cannot be explained without invoking consciousness." That means life is a different entity than normal physics and chemistry. So they are starting to realize, at least to some extent, that life could be completely different process than was planned about few years ago.

Prabhupāda: So on the whole, they have not come to the platform to know about life. That's all right.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)