770630 - Conversation B - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770630R2-VRNDAVAN - June 30, 1977 - 39:28 Minutes

(Conversation with Bhakti-caitanya Swami, new GBC)

Prabhupāda: Because we are Hindu attached, so there is temporary contamination. Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata (BG 2.14): "Tolerate." Don't be puffed up, "Oh, after giving so many . . ." Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After you go in the back for a massage, he'll ask some questions.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. What are those . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . is flying in an airplane from Los Angeles to India via Hawaii, but in the picture that we have drawn, there is no way you can go from Los Angeles to India via Hawaii. If you go this direction, from Los Angeles, say, this way, you don't come to India. India's over here according to our description. Yet when they take a flight, they say: "We go around the earth." But we say, "You cannot go around the earth." So far, our understanding . . . so far—unless we have not completely understood yet—it is like a lotus, Jambūdvīpa, and the whole Bhū-maṇḍala is like a lotus. So how do . . . you cannot fly around Bhāratavarṣa, or earth. Yet every day the whole science of aeronautics, of flying, is based upon the fact that they're flying around different places of the earth. And everyone who sees this, that, our description, is going to ask this question. It's a very important question to answer, and Bhakti-prema has not yet answered it. None of us can. We are avoiding it at this point until we get further information. There must be an answer, but we have not yet been able to give the answer. I have absolute faith in these . . . in the Vedic description. I am completely convin . . . I just know that I have not understood perfectly yet. Therefore the answer's not apparent. But it's definitely a question that they will raise. (break)

Prabhupāda: Give him this letter with immigration card.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has sent it to us.

Prabhupāda: No, he has given me personally.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think I follow you. Mr. Bal Subhramanya from Indian Overseas Bank?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Virtually half gone. His wife and his father-in-law have . . .

Prabhupāda: Where is Mr. Myer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is Mr. Myer?

Akṣayānanda: Oh, he is . . . (indistinct) . . . just now. He is here.

Prabhupāda: So what he is doing?

Akṣayānanda: He's been looking at all our management and giving very good advice. The first day he was helping me on the devotee side. Then, for the last couple of days he was looking in the guesthouse side, and . . .

Prabhupāda: The guesthouse is filled up with these women and children?

Akṣayānanda: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? It should be . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many women live in the guesthouse?

Akṣayānanda: As . . . as for the names of devotees, there's about ten as paying guests.

Prabhupāda: Paying guest?

Akṣayānanda: They are also paying. Some women are paying guests for their . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, if they are paying, that is all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many are living, not paying?

Akṣayānanda: Not paying, there are about ten.

Prabhupāda: So where they are living?

Akṣayānanda: They are living . . . there is one room. They all live together in one room. Some . . .

Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Akṣayānanda: They're all engaged with . . . we have got very tight watch to see that they're working. At least they . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: They live together, say, one room. That's all.

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But I hear that they occupy with children, but they pay for it.

Akṣayānanda: That's right.

Prabhupāda: If they are paying, that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I . . . I didn't hear that.

Akṣayānanda: No, there is one. At the back side there is one lady with child, because that room is not favored by the guests. She is the wife of one of the senior men, and there's no other place. That is just one exception.

Prabhupāda: If they're paying guest, then it's all right.

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, guestroom should not be misused by the unnecessary women and children. That should not be allowed. If one cannot pay, she may go the mass.

Akṣayānanda: Yes. I've always tried to minimize that problem.

Prabhupāda: No, "try . . ." Actually prove. No, don't try.

Akṣayānanda: I'm doing it, actually, at the expense of . . . they get angry, but . . .

Prabhupāda: There is no question of angry. It is not our . . .

Akṣayānanda: Just recently I sent about three or four of them out, and they all became . . .

Prabhupāda: If they want to live without any payment, let them go to Māyāpur. There is enough place. We don't deny them. But here, in the guestroom, they will occupy without any payment . . .

Akṣayānanda: No, there's only one big room. It's right at the back, and it's not a very nice room. The guests do not like that room. And they have . . . I sent two or three to Ahmedabad also. They have a little room, Ahmedabad, especially now.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Akṣayānanda: Yaśomatī-nandana, he has also facility, so often I send them there.

Prabhupāda: Yaśomatī-nandana? Ahmedabad?

Akṣayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Akṣayānanda: Especially single women.

Prabhupāda: They can go to Hyderabad, Ahmedabad. And why here? This should be stopped and independence given.

Akṣayānanda: Today's a special Govardhana-parikrama, so we're sending out women and men both, for book distribution. Tamāla had a suggestion. We made a competition between the men and women, who will distribute the most books.

Prabhupāda: What is the time now?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's about five minutes after nine, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Akṣayānanda: I went to the gate site this morning. They are digging. They have made enormous holes, taking about two days to dig. Now there's some hitch from the P.W.D. about materials list . . . when our construction man Adbhuta comes at ten o'clock, I will meet with him and find out exactly . . . they had bogus sculptor working.

Prabhupāda: . . . (indistinct)

Akṣayānanda: Yeah, but our . . . at ten o'clock I'll find out. After your darśana I'll find out what the details are. But they've already dug two enormous big holes.

Prabhupāda: The municipality has got sanction.

Akṣayānanda: Sanction is there. Some red tape. I'll find out later. Something about materials, iron materials, reinforcement, how much they need. They're always finding some . . .

Prabhupāda: So the P.W.D. has objected.

Akṣayānanda: Some objection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't we wait until we find out? Actually, to speak of the contract, when we're going to find out?

Akṣayānanda: That's what I say. I'll see him at ten o'clock, after the darśana in the temple, and find out whether . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Akṣayānanda: But they have to be very large holes for the foundation, so that it's strong.

Prabhupāda: Yes, firmly strong.

Akṣayānanda: So that in itself has taken two days and maybe not finished yet. I'll keep watching them.

Prabhupāda: All right. (break) So what you can do? He was floating? He was on the . . . "So I know three medicines. One is castor oil, one is quinine, another is mag salt."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the last one?

Prabhupāda: Quinine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine and magnesium salt?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And castor oil. "And all my other medicines, they are business."

Śatadhanya: They are what?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are business, simply making money.

Prabhupāda: He said like that. He did not like to tell me this. He's a doctor. When he was indisposed, he'll sit down silently for three days, and he will give this quinine, castor oil and . . . (indistinct) . . .?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is poisonous, isn't it?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Quinine is not kept in . . .

Prabhupāda: Quinine is fever and . . . (indistinct) . . . and he said like that, "I have no . . ." So why these three? (break)

Śatadhanya: We'll move the bed. We brought the hot water.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It almost seems like Mr. Bose was like a second father to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. My father's friend.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Was he very close to your father?

Prabhupāda: Very. He appointed me manager for this relationship.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He trusted you personally, like a son.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We were exactly like son.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will you want to see Bhakti-caitanya Swami again today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was talking with him about the temple that he proposes to make.

Prabhupāda: Temple is not very important thing. First important thing is distribution. That is our main business.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The restaurant was filled again today. So opulent.

Prabhupāda: What is the special feature?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I haven't figured that out. I know what it is though. The special feature is this, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's a number of things. One thing, there's no other place in Vṛndāvana where you can sit in such a good atmosphere. That room is very large. The tables are first class, marble. There are very nice decorations, and the service is very good. And they serve ice water. And the prasādam is also better than at the Jaipuria Guesthouse or most of the other guesthouses. And it's very inexpensive, four rupees for as much as you want to eat, palatable. And it's right in our own guesthouse. The people live here, and then they don't have to go anywhere. They just walk down to the dining room, and they get very good prasādam, good service, inexpensive, good atmosphere. It's become a very popular place. But it's too hot for me. I have difficulty eating the sabjī because it's very spicy, but I think it's liked by the Indian people.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I know, in New York, that is one of their complaints, the Indian people, that we don't cook spicy enough. Too bland for their palate. And we're not accustomed to that so much, hot spices. They like.

Prabhupāda: Without spices, Indians should not cook.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they won't digest it either.

Prabhupāda: You'll be surprised how what quantity of spices toward Indians. There is a Calcutta wholesale market of spices. They . . . everywhere, not Calcutta . . . chili, they are sold in big, big bag. We have seen in Hyderabad a spice shop, chili, large shop. And amongst the spices, the chili is most favorable.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, they like it very much. You also use it.

Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. And there are so many spices.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The spice merchants are usually pious men who become members, I have found. In any city . . .

Prabhupāda: They have got money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Very often the Marwaris, they are in that . . .

Prabhupāda: Gujarati.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Gujarati, yeah, Gujarat. In Bombay there is a big Bombay tri. Pañcadraviḍa Swami, that was his special area. He would go down there, huge spice area.

Prabhupāda: There is a special name of that place. Everyone, every poor man or rich man, must use quantity of spice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was surprised. In Bombay this one Life Member, very wealthy man . . . I thought, "Oh, this man must have many businesses." And I found that he only had one business. He simply exports cardamom. And he's a very wealthy man, and he simply exports little cardamom seeds, but such quantities, and it fetches a very good price abroad.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many merchants. They deal in quantity and stock huge. Nobody can compete with him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they buy everybody's out.

Prabhupāda: He can give so cheap one lakh. Somebody gives you a black . . . what is called? Berries, berries.

Upendra: Black pepper?

Prabhupāda: Black pepper.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you'll take the Milk of Magnesia.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and little . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay . . . (indistinct) . . . maybe you'll get immediately, I mean, if you take it before going to take rest.

Prabhupāda: No, before going, take out.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Maybe after bed, when you sit up. Nice thing about that is that it's easily available, very common.

Prabhupāda: Phillip's? Phillip's?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phillip's, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: I may understand from the . . . (indistinct) . . . paper, for some vigorous men there is a very good field. You have also come. You have also . . .

Trivikrama: Yes, I can hear. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Combine together. What is the difficulty?

Trivikrama: The one thing in my mind is that . . . I've been in Delhi a little while. I see that such a good pla . . . we could . . . seems like if he was there also, somehow if we had . . . if we had Delhi as well as the whole . . . and you say Punjab. If that also included Delhi, I think we could manage, because the boy who's a president, he's a neophyte devotee, and aside from that, there's so many big men who've been our members for many years. They want to help, but no one is cultivating them. Caitya-guru . . . er, Bhakti-caitanya and myself, we went to see a man yesterday, and they were so respectful. They've seen our movement in the foreign countries, and they've been our member five or six years, but no one is there who is capable of drawing them. So he was also . . . because he knows the language and he . . . it was . . . my feeling is . . . because Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, he's always in Bombay, he doesn't . . . not always, but he couldn't take as much interest in the Delhi affairs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's a couple of points. I discussed this with them. One thing is that your idea was that Trivikrama Mahārāja should go with Bhakti-caitanya to Punjab. So bringing up Delhi now doesn't solve anything, 'cause Trivikrama is already in Delhi. Whether Bhakti-caitanya Mahārāja is eventually in charge of Delhi or Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is in charge of Delhi, in any case the real point is that Prabhupāda advised that he wanted you to go to Chandigarh, 'cause that's where we want to develop.

Prabhupāda: So if you cannot combinedly manage the Delhi . . .

Trivikrama: There he is . . .

Prabhupāda: Do that.

Bhakti-caitanya: That's what I was feeling, that if I will be in Chandigarh or Delhi, the service is the same.

Prabhupāda: If . . . let them have the management of Delhi.

Trivikrama: It's only a few hours by car, two hours.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: 'Cause from Delhi I want to collect our funds for Delhi and for Chandigarh, and Delhi we will keep our head office, and we will cover the whole north, because . . .

Prabhupāda: Very good. Yes. In Delhi . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: . . . we have a nice part to work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you don't think Gopāla will be feeling sorry about Delhi being in his zone? Now he's going to . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And Gopāla won't feel . . . I mean, I . . .

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of feeling. It is the question of work for our . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I mean, I also can see it may be good. I'm just trying to . . . that he should not feel . . .

Prabhupāda: Why he should feel? If you have to work, you have to work for Kṛṣṇa.

Bhakti-caitanya: Actually we are taking a burden from his back . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: . . . just to go here and there. And I am picking up much responsibility between . . .

Trivikrama: One other point is Raj Kumar Gupta, that man who is so devoted. He's now sitting in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: So you combinedly do. That will be . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: I am sure that if . . . with your blessing . . . because Gupta is very influential in Delhi, and Delhi, we will also be able to get the men sitting in the rear if we want, because he has so much influence in the ministry now.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Bhakti-caitanya: That Mr. Raj Kumar Gupta. He is the right man in the ministry now. That Kedaranath Swami, the mayor of Delhi, he always . . . he is a fast friend. So if we have influential man . . . now he has shifted his office from Chandigarh to Delhi, so I have to get the all ordination for Chandigarh from him, through him. So if he will introduce me to his friends in Delhi, and Delhi people will mind if I will take our money to Chandigarh, so what I was wondering is collect that money from Delhi from all over, put in Delhi and Chandigarh together, all the North India.

Trivikrama: There will be no shortage of money. There's so much . . . just yesterday a man gave five thousand rupees. And he wasn't even a big man. Small man. Big man, we can get. There's so many.

Bhakti-caitanya: (laughs) Yes, practically because we have no small big man.

Prabhupāda: So it is very good premise. So why Gopāla should be sorry that, "I go"? Is there any reason?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he'll feel that he's worked in Delhi before. He's developed the Delhi temple. If he feels he can work with it, they'll be . . .

Prabhupāda: If he can also join, what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He won't . . . I'm speaking . . . I'm just . . . we don't want him to become disappointed. I know in the past sometimes Gopāla gets disappointed.

Trivikrama: He has so much to do in Bombay with the book, BBT.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm not giving my opinion. I'm only speaking on the fact that we should not in any way . . .

Trivikrama: Yeah, discourage our Godbrothers.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . discourage him so that he feels, "All right . . ." Sometimes in the past that happened in Vṛndāvana.

Trivikrama: I can talk to him. I'm his friend. There's not some plot or something.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, he can also look over, but he should work . . . let us allow to work in Delhi.

Trivikrama: We can work together. We're all brothers.

Bhakti-caitanya: But we have to spread the . . . put the Prabhupāda's books in everyone's house and spread this movement.

Trivikrama: To think "big ISKCON."

Bhakti-caitanya: Anywhere, doesn't matter.

Prabhupāda: Try to bring that cooperation. So he is GBC for Delhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: So let him be a GBC. He's GBC for Punjab. Both together, let them work. What is the wrong?

Bhakti-caitanya: Actually, Delhi comes under North India.

Prabhupāda: Delhi is part of Punjab.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is, Punjab . . . and it makes sense, perfect sense.

Prabhupāda: No, we have to work. If he has got more business in Bombay for printing work, and mostly he spends his time in Bombay . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, too, he spends at least two weeks in Bombay, and then he spends about at least another week here in Vṛndāvana.

Trivikrama: He's two or three days out of a month only.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: No, we have to adjust things. It is not sentiment; it is business. So whenever he is required, we can do for printing.

Trivikrama: Yeah, he can go and . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: He can help us. He cannot avoid us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: If he will come and help us, that will be a very . . . but if I will be in Delhi, I can preach. I can go with them for preaching. I don't have to sit in the office.

Prabhupāda: It is not that he is prohibited to enter Delhi. It is not . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, as an organizer, he takes pleasure in, you know, developing a center. So he's worked on that center. Now . . .

Prabhupāda: Center is already there. There are . . . not that there is no center. So that center may be taken up. We have got already a place. Now take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm speaking only that he's worked on Delhi with Bhāgavatāśraya and Prema and others . . .

Prabhupāda: Let him do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he won't be . . . now he won't be the GBC, so he may feel, "Why I was . . ."

Prabhupāda: But he's GBC. He's GBC, but otherwise it is his joining. Where is the wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jointly.

Prabhupāda: Yes, jointly. He is in charge of Punjab, and he'll be . . . work in Delhi. What is that? I cannot un . . . so it is simply sentiment.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it is. On his part it is a sentiment.

Prabhupāda: That's right. So induce him to go. We have to work.

Bhakti-caitanya: So we are going this evening, because I have to see Mr. Gupta tomorrow morning, to get the permission from my father . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: So I think that I should . . .

Prabhupāda: Arrange this. If it is done complete . . . otherwise, all combine together. Is that all right?

Trivikrama: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: If you create faction amongst yourselves, then what will come? Problems. Why?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, there should be no difficulty in working together.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be better.

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes.

Trivikrama: Actually he'll be pleased. When results are coming, why won't he be enlivened also? If he sees men are taking more interest . . . I think he's advanced enough . . .

Prabhupāda: Let him concentrate especially on printing work.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's actually what all of the devotees here have tried to encourage him, that, "You have so much to do in printing." Just like Rāmeśvara's job took a full-time engagement.

Prabhupāda: So manage very nice. That is required. If there is good demand for Hindi books . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes, every actually week we sell nearly . . .

Prabhupāda: And what about his complaint about books?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I've discussed that with him, but I . . . I think also that you have to probably send some money to the BBT.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, money means that . . . money I have to send. I owe fifteen thousand rupees. I haven't got. Then fifteen thousand, I can send it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the point is that you have outstanding bills.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, that is the only fifteen thousand rupees up to two days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why not . . .? Maybe that will encourage . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: Yeah, I give them up, last time when Gopāla was there about month ago, I gave him about five thousand rupees. I gave. But I keep some, you know. The point is that if I will get the books, from the books I could make up money. If I will go like as this . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no. What is your debt to the BBT?

Bhakti-caitanya: Fifteen thousand rupees.

Prabhupāda: So why don't you pay?

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay it.

Prabhupāda: Then let him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In advance?

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay in two installments. I will pay . . .

Prabhupāda: But that . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: I will pay seven thousand . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: Or couple of . . . what I was wanting . . . if we will make our Delhi office, from all the BBT payments we will make a conserving of that collection from there, and from there we can supply books all over North India, no problem. And I have a little bit brain to expand it, and I have seen, experienced, since about six months. I don't have any help from anyone, except your blessings. So I was trying my best, and I am successful. I can . . . you can see our work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (bell rings) So what is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I . . . I mean, everything sounds nice to me, and there's always . . . you know, everything has to be done so that nobody . . . people should not be sentimental.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But since they are sentimental, we have to work in such a way that even the sentiments are not hurt. That's all I'm trying to say.

Trivikrama: But also that bill should be paid. The BBT should be paid.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it has to be a two-way thing. You have to get books, and you have to pay for the books.

Bhakti-caitanya: That's all. Sometimes like the . . . suppose I get lot of books worth of five thousand today, and there's no money. We have to sell the book. That gives us a month to pay them.

Prabhupāda: No, what is your month, you pay.

Bhakti-caitanya: Now I will pay that. There is no point of that.

Prabhupāda: So you can pay immediately seven thousand.

Bhakti-caitanya: All right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I'm writing Gopāla that, "You should immediately send the books."

Bhakti-caitanya: I can send that right away to Gopāla too.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he should send books in any case. That's your policy, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Supply books in any case. Don't be miserly about supplying books. And you, on your side, whenever you have money at the end of the month, you then pay the BBT.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, there will be no problem, because we have got theme for collection. Even we will . . .

Prabhupāda: No, immediately you send in seven thousand.

Trivikrama: Seven thousand.

Bhakti-caitanya: Okay. I can make a check today, and I can do.

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have your checkbook here?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhakti-caitanya: Right away.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So along with my letter I'll send you check.

Prabhupāda: Yes, send him the check.

Bhakti-caitanya: No problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's very nice. Now this man, Mr. Gupta, that they have contacted, Bhakti-caitanya Mahārāja was telling me that he's very close man with the Haribhajapada. So I don't know if there's any . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we do not expect any very gorgeous help from these autocrats. That is not possible. Therefore it is . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was wondering whether you thought that when Gopāla went to see Mr. Rajpa, perhaps Mr. Gupta could also accompany them. Do you think it would be profitable?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Not possible.

Trivikrama: I was also with Gopāla when we saw Mr. Rajpa in . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That Surendra Kumar is going? Not to disturb them. Yes. That's all.

Bhakti-caitanya: Slowly, slowly, they will be convinced if they will see our activities.

Prabhupāda: And even they are convinced of the importance of this movement . . .

Bhakti-caitanya: Right.

Prabhupāda: . . . still, they are politicians. You do not expect any wonderful thing.

Bhakti-caitanya: No, they are always sly. Today they are . . . (indistinct) . . . tomorrow they will be . . .

Prabhupāda: Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu: "Never trust politicians and woman." That is the instruction of Cāṇakya.

Bhakti-caitanya: Yes, you said many times.

Prabhupāda: They will speak something outwardly and do something inwardly. Especially nowadays politicians, they are diplomats. But Mr. Gupta is doing personally. That's all right.

Bhakti-caitanya: I got him to engage in the service of Kṛṣṇa very nicely.

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is . . . (indistinct)

Bhakti-caitanya: He was the first man when we have our . . .

Prabhupāda: What we expect from Vajpayee? First thing, what he has proposed, give us this permanent residency . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Permanent residency

Prabhupāda: Let us see how he . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the main thing we want.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he has good mind, he'll give it, either Mr. Gupta goes or not. But if he has got any political view, either Gupta goes or not goes, he'll not . . . first plan, interest, is for residency. (end)