770811 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770811R1-VRNDAVAN - August 11, 1977 - 67:21 Minutes

Prabhupāda: All the Bengali literatures that we have already published, get it republished in Bangladesh and distribute hugely. And for that purpose we shall pay. And you spend that money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not difficult for us to do that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Plan like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: 'Cause we're sending money anyway for construction, so we can send some of that for printing and pay back the construction off of you. (to Prabhaviṣṇu) Can you send money from Bangladesh to India?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I'm asking him whether he's able to send any money into India from Bangladesh.

Prabhupāda: What is use of sending?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, just like supposing he sells a great quantity of literature.

Prabhupāda: Invest again!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may want him to continue bringing foreign exchange in. That's the point I'm making.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So to continue sending . . .

Prabhupāda: Make more capital by making profit out of.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they may want him to continue sending foreign money in, not just . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes! Beginning will be foreign money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they may want him to continue indef . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. If required, we shall send.

Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes, they want that. They want that. When they see foreigner, they just think how they can make some profit from them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Foreign exchange.

Prabhaviṣṇu: Yes. Our lawyer told us that you can do anything in Bangladesh if you have money. You can accomplish anything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don't have any shortage of money.

Prabhupāda: Make plan how to do it. The money we shall send, we shall not take back. We shall invest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fortunately we have no scarcity of money.

Prabhupāda: No. Why? Kṛṣṇa has no scarcity of money. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47). Why there is question of scarcity? Make scheme. You are all intelligent. So with how much foreign exchange you'll begin in Bangladesh?

Prabhaviṣṇu: Well, at the moment, Pañca-ratna Prabhu has gone to Bangladesh, and he's investigating in great detail the cost of printing. So when he gives his report, then we'll have a clear idea.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What my idea was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, was this—if he can print in Bangladesh, not only he can print for his own needs in Bangladesh, he can print for West Bengal. And Jayapatākā, instead of . . . we can pay him in foreign exchange from America, and Jayapatākā can pay the money for the books to the construction fund, which would have been coming from America anyway. In that way it will be very nice accounting.

Prabhupāda: So make that scheme. (indistinct background discussion) (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Nepal is there a Lloyd's Bank?

Prabhaviṣṇu: I don't know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if there's not Lloyd's Bank . . .

Prabhupāda: No, Lloyd's Bank has branches all over the world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And they also have relationships with other banks . . .

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . when they don't have a branch.

Prabhupāda: Lloyd's Bank is English bank. Lloyd's Bank, Grindlays Bank.

Prabhaviṣṇu: There is Grindlays Bank in Nepal.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Then it's all right.

Prabhaviṣṇu: Actually, I think that in the case of Nepal, it's possible to change Nepal money back into Indian currency without much trouble.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So that's good. Then we can send as much money as you want. If that's a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that they can change Nepalese money into Indian rupees without any loss, then we can send him whatever money he requires, because regularly we have to send so many thousands of dollars every month for construction to India. So if he can change money into rupees, then we can give him any amount of money—if necessary. (break)

Prabhaviṣṇu: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bangladesh the people would welcome us with kīrtana everywhere we went. They came into the streets and held kīrtana, and then they offered garlands to the devotees.

Prabhupāda: And offer them prasādam without discrimination. Some Muslim also will be friend.

Prabhaviṣṇu: Actually, many of the upper-class Muslims who are more intellectually advanced, they were quite appreciative of our philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We say: "Why you say Hindu? We are not Hindu, Muhammadan. We are for humanity." (break) . . . continue with this kavirāja or we shall change? If we have to change, whether that astrologer has got any information? (break) New York Ratha-yātrā, there was no coverage in the press?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was. I just finished reading Ādi-keśa's letter, and he said by separate post he's sending us news clippings and photographs.

Prabhupāda: That's nice. And so far the Indians are concerned . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's strange that he did not write. I will question him what was the response from the Indian community.

Prabhupāda: Indian community, they are regularly coming in our temple?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I would imagine that there was a good many thousand Indians at the festival. There must have been. We have quite a good relationship with the Indian community in New York. Ādi-keśa Mahārāja and others have developed it through the years now, in the last two years. (break)

Abhirāma: I just now returned from Delhi, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Abhirāma: So I went to see the astrologer with Yaśodānandana Swami, and he did more calculations on your chart . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: You can get on light.

Abhirāma: So basically he explained when the difficult times will come, according to the planets. But then he made it very clear that beyond the planetary influence, it would be very difficult for calculations for a person in your position. For an ordinary man he can say very clearly. And he can say for you which planets will disturb, but he cannot say for sure how much they will affect, because being a saintly person, there is naturally some resistance to these influences. So he made that very clear, that you should not think that these are final. So he said, according to your birth, the longevity shows very clearly. And then he gave a date. The longevity is eighty-one years, five months and twenty-nine days, which means February 28, 1978, six months from today . . . from now. This is according to birth and stars arrangement. But on this point he made it very clear that this was from your birth, this was set, but it can change. Due to pious activities, due to the hand of Kṛṣṇa, this can change. So . . . and then he described that during the next six months, the first week of September, Saturn will pass over Ketu, and it will agitate the influence of Ketu even more. So the first week of September the resistance will go down, will become weaker. Then he mentioned that there may be some trouble from . . . maybe financial or maybe from juniors, from subordinates. Then if this period, if you can pass, through 1978, then there is four or five more years clear ahead, if you can pass through '78. This was what he said, that after '78 there would be four or five years which would be more or less clear of difficulties.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Abhirāma: He said that if you can pass through 1978, then after that there will be four or five years of clear, without much difficulty. He said that you could go on easily for four or five years after that, if you can pass through 1978. And he said according to birth arrangement, the fatal date is February 28, 1978, in six months. At that time there's what's called a completion of a Ketu mahā-daśā, which began at your birth. But he stressed several times that we should not take these calculations to be final, on account of your position. He said these are for ordinary men. He said it is always the case that a man of spiritual advancement will have the ability to overcome his fate. He quoted the case of his father, who was in the Śrī Sampradāya, and he was apparently very pious and he lived so many years beyond his fatal date. And even so many astrologers had given the calculation, but still, he went on because of . . . he said that he would fast on ekādaśī and so many days and so much japa, like that. So he said for a man of your position he could not even say for sure. He said that definitely the hand of Kṛṣṇa would be involved. So like this, he seemed to have a very sober idea. And he was hopeful that the blue sapphire would have some beneficial effect, at least to relieve you to some degree, and that he thought that by now you should have noticed a little bit at least. (break) . . . besides the gem, there is a good Āyurvedic physician. He can also relieve the effects. That they know the art if you can find the proper man. I inquired if there is a proper man in this district. He said he didn't know anyone in this area. He knows of a man in Delhi. I took his address, and I tried to contact him, but I have not yet contacted him. He was not available. However, we have contacted a man . . . we read the report to you the other night. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa read you when we were upstairs? He was suggesting the pearl and the oxidized gold and bark of Arjuna tree. That man is the chief physician of this big Āyurvedic hospital in Delhi. He's the chief resident physician there. He lives there at the hospital and he's in charge. He has expressed a serious interest in you, and he's a very, very pious man. He wants to come to visit Vṛndāvana. His wife is an Āyurvedic physician, he is the chief physician of the hospital, and there is another professor of Āyurveda. They all want to see if they can offer some suggestion. So on Sunday . . .

Prabhupāda: Why not bring them?

Abhirāma: Yes. On Sunday we have arranged. They will come for a visit of Vṛndāvana, and they will come to see you, to see if they can relieve you some difficulty. As far as we could find in Delhi, these are the most reputed men, and they are actively practicing and teaching. They are recognized.

Prabhupāda: Make that arrangement. Yes. On Sunday?

Abhirāma: Yes, on Sunday, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Today is Thursday. So these were the major points, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that for six months there's trouble, especially in first week of September, and if you can pass through '78, then he sees four or five years ahead clear.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means divine intervention, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: The chart is given. The calculation there is finished. That doesn't matter. Rather, if I am finished now, it will be glorious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will be what, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Glorious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Living will also be glorious.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Let us see. As Kṛṣṇa desires. All right. Thank you. Would you like to send to that Navadvīpa astrologer?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I'm going to write to Jayapatākā this evening. I'll give him the information.

Prabhupāda: You have got the janma?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I'll have Abhirāma write this . . . what he has given, I'll have him write it up and add it to that other report. I have a file I'm keeping in case you wanted to hear again. Pradyumna is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Would you like to hear Caitanya-caritāmṛta?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Can you guarantee life? Then you are controller. Your so-called advanced medicine or advanced knowledge has no meaning. You have to die. Then where is the value of your empty voice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Prabhupāda? Empty voice.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Empty promises. It says (reading from an article by Dr. Kovoor, president of the Sri Lanka branch of the Rationalist Society), "Even babies are born with a set of genetically determined behavior patterns known as instincts, but with no knowledge. Knowledge has to be put into the brain of a child through the five senses. If a child is born bereft of the five senses, it will grow like a vegetable, without a mind, although it has a . . ."

Prabhupāda: So why a child is bereft of senses and why the others not? Who controls it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "A child born deaf will neither be a Sinhalese nor a Tamil, because it will not be able to speak the languages of either communities. It will be dumb child."

Prabhupāda: That means another . . . that means he's born half-dead. But can you give life? You are scientist. You give him.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, now he's speaking about a different subject.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if a child is born bereft of all the senses, can you give him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then what is your value?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he says you can't give him either.

Prabhupāda: No, I don't say that I can give. But you say you can give. You say that, "Without God we can do." We don't say. We say the God is the ultimate controller. Therefore it is your duty to give him, not our, my duty. I don't take the all power. I'm not such a fool. Therefore the onus has to be proved by you. What is called? Onus?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. The onus is on them.

Prabhupāda: You do it, without God. Then I take it seriously. Otherwise empty voice simply, nonsensical.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Elders should be careful to give sound knowledge based on objective evidence to their children. Unfortunately, a lot of delusional ideas are put into the minds of children in the name of religion. Dāsa and Swami talk about rebirth, soul, Supreme Soul, life generating matter, etc . . . as a result of such delusional ideas put into them by deluded Indian God-man, Prabhupāda, who founded the bizarre cult known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . ." Oh, he's a real demon, this man. He's a real demon, this man. Kṛṣṇa has a place already put aside for him. His science won't help him at that time. "Knowledge and enlightenment cannot be had through meditation, which is only a form of self-hypnosis. Dāsa and Swami ask whether scientists can make a chicken to come out of a plastic egg. I do not know whether they are aware that scientists have made over ten elements, such as fermium, plutonium, serium . . ." That's all right. We're asking about a chicken. We're not asking about the elements.

Prabhupāda: Rascal, you are simply producing empty sound. Where is the chicken? Rascal. (chuckles) The chicken, the hen, is better scientist than you. He'll produced another egg within a week. You simply "This, that, this, that, this, that," that's all. "Left, right, left, right." What is your value? We don't give you value. Less important than the chicken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) He says: "We have created over ten elements that even God . . ."

Prabhupāda: Who cares for your creation? Without your creation the egg is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he says: "Even God could not create them, because He did not know the technology involved in making them."

Prabhupāda: God kicks on your mouth. He doesn't require to take your creation. Without your creation He can do everything. God kicks on your mouth with shoes, talkative nonsense. Tell him like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughing) I'm sure Haṁsadūta did. Next we'll read his . . . he says: "Are these two men aware of the success of Sri Lankan scientist Dr. Cyril . . ."

Prabhupāda: Who cares for this scientist?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "The Nobel Prize-winner in synthesizing amino acids . . ."

Prabhupāda: Nobel Prize–winner—another rascal has given him a Nobel Prize. He's a rascal; another rascal has given. Suri sākṣī mātāla. In the liquor house the witness is the drunkard. What is value of the witness of a drunkard? Do you know suri sākṣī mātāla? There is some incident within the liquor shop, and the proprietor of the liquor shop has brought some witnesses. All of them are drunkards. (laughter) (chuckles) So what is value of this? Suri sākṣī mātāla. As soon as you are drunkard, immediately they are rejected. Surā dekhi nā saya nā. The proprietor of the liquor shop has no more witness than the drunkard.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says here that, "These great Nobel Prize–winners have made protoplasm from inert substances simulating the conditions that prevailed in the primitive atmosphere of the earth. Do they know that human egg and sperm cells could be fertilized in test tubes and the fetus developed in an artificial womb or in the womb of a hired woman? Among animals that evolved on this planet . . ."

Prabhupāda: So what is the benefit? There are millions of wombs. Why you should hire? If there is scarcity of womb, then we can hire. You rascal, you hire. You do not know. We see, without hiring there are millions of wombs, and they are producing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that they can do it.

Gurukṛpa: They haven't done it yet.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Among animals that evolved on this planet, man is the only animal that has progressed in all his activities. This he achieved through his knowledge in science. While all organisms continue to live even today as their forebears did millions of years ago, man alone has progressed . . ."

Prabhupāda: No, no. There are uncivilized men. Without any knowledge they can produce children. Do they have any scientific knowledge? How they are producing children? The same man, the same woman, the same child. What is the difference?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Man alone has progressed from the caveman state to the present spaceman state."

Prabhupāda: Progressing means eating, sleeping, nothing more progress. He eats by killing an animal in the jungle, and you are eating, killing an animal in the organized slaughterhouse. That's all. So what is the difference between you and him? You are committing sinful activities by hammering, the killing, but he does not do so. He's not so sinful.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew! He says that "Man alone has progressed . . ."

Prabhupāda: He can be allowed to do so because he is not civilized. But you are civilized, and you are committing great sinful activities by maintaining slaughterhouse. You are such a rascal. And because you are godless, you do not know that you will suffer for these sinful activities. That is the proof of existence of soul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that, "This has happened by man's technology and not by the help of any God or knowledge obtained from any scripture. Advancement in medical science and social welfare services are helping more and more misfits . . ."

Prabhupāda: What social welfare?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . to survive to procreate more and more misfits as future citizens."

Prabhupāda: No, what social welfare you have done? You have opened so many hospitals, but does it mean you can give life?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a real . . . here's what he says. He says: "Advancement in medical science and social welfare . . ."

Prabhupāda: What is the advancement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to explain what it is. "And social welfare services are helping more and more misfits to survive to procreate more and more misfits as future citizens. While the short-term goal is achieved, the long-term goal is jeopardized. Future governments are not going to allow all the misfits to procreate misfit children on the ground that life originates from the Supreme Soul. It is the unique ability of man to engage in creative thinking that has made him succeed in his fight against the laws of nature."

Prabhupāda: What you have gained? Your father died. Your mother died. You are a great scientist. Why you cannot save them? What is the value of your education? Simply empty voice. You'll also die. Can you make provision that you'll not die?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Future," they'll say.

Prabhupāda: That is empty voice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy. He says: "The highly developed forebrain and the deeply convoluted cortex have helped him to think creatively. Scientists, as a general rule, are objective thinkers because they base their thoughts on empirical knowledge. Mystics and visionaries, the so-called spiritual scientists of Dāsa and Swami, on the other hand, build up their thoughts on their subjective perceptions. Books on chemistry, physics, mathematics, geography, history, geology, anthropology, paleontology, engineering, medical science, astronomy, etc. are the products of objective thinkers."

Prabhupāda: Big, big words, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "On the other hand, books like Arabian Nights, Gulliver's Travels . . ."

Prabhupāda: Who's that Arabian Night?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ". . . fairy stories like the Mahā . . ."

Prabhupāda: Who's talking Arabian Night?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Fairy stories like Mahābhārata, Rāmāyaṇa, Bible, Koran, Pilgrim's . . ." Oh, this man . . . "Pilgrim's Progress, Jataka stories, astrology, palmistry, numerology, theology, demonology, etc. are the products of subjective thinkers. While the former are factual, the latter are all fictitious. Some of the marvelous achievements of mankind in recent years are the liberation of atomic energy, radio telescopy, to reach . . ."

Prabhupāda: What is value of atomic energy? A man is dying; you have accelerated his death. That's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says "Landing on the moon . . ."

Prabhupāda: Have you invented something that man will not die? Then it is approved. They are dying. You have given facilities to die earlier. That is atomic energy. There is no energy which can save him—"No more death." Is that improvement? By nature one dies natural death, and you have accelerated—many millions of people can be killed by this atomic weapon. So what is your achievement? Save millions of people.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Mentally deranged intellectuals are capable of expatiating on their hallucinations."

Prabhupāda: So who is mentally deranged?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says we are. He says: "And they often become founders and preachers of diverse types of religious cults."

Prabhupāda: No, no. Your atomic energy, what benefit has done to the people?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real rākṣasa. Here's Haṁsadūta's reply to him. "Reply to Dr. Kovoor's article: Before going into the main body of my article, which I . . . a transcript of a lecture I delivered at Sarasvatī Hall on July 29th before an audience of approximately one thousand respectable gentry of Colombo, and where Dr. Kovoor also happened to be present and was subsequently challenged but failed to defend his position that life is generated by chance chemical combination, I would briefly like to point out the apparent defects in his article. It is not beyond Kovoor's power of observation. First of all, it should be pointed out that Dr. Kovoor has done exactly what I predicted he would do in my last article, namely swamp the reader with a deluge of word jugglery in order to avoid the main point in question, which is, If life is generated by chance biochemical combination, as the scientists claim, then if given the said chemicals, can the scientist Kovoor make the chemicals come to life? Instead of answering this point, he has cleverly written that 'Scientists have created over ten elements, such a fermium, plutonium, serium, einsteinium, etc.' But elements are a far cry from living beings. He says that Dr. Cyril Ponnamperuma and Dr. Bal Gobind Khorana, Nobel Prize–winners . . ." Incidentally, this Mr. Nobel was the inventor of dynamite, and he is giving Peace prizes. Absurd to say the least. He's famous for inventing dynamite, and he's giving the Peace Prize. As you said, drunkards. He says: "Those Nobel Prize–winners have synthesized the building blocks of living protoplasm. So if this is a fact, then why Dr. Kovoor has not met the challenge and created life with the said building blocks of amino acids? My challenge still stands: Create life from chemicals. As for incubating a baby in a test tube . . ." (break) ". . . required to produce that baby in the test tube cannot be created by the so-called scientists. So what is their credit if they produce a baby in a test tube? God is already producing millions of babies daily in nature's test tube, the womb of a woman. Kovoor's statement that scientists are objective thinkers and base their thoughts on empirical knowledge only, goes to prove my point that the soul lies beyond the jurisdiction of the limited senses of the scientists, and therefore a completely different process of approach has to be adopted."

Prabhupāda: So Haṁsadūta will become famous now.

Devotee: What's that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Haṁsadūta will become famous now. All the people there will support Haṁsadūta. Naturally they won't support such a rascal. (pause) (indistinct whispering in background)

Prabhupāda: This argument is called Pretitio Principial, logic. You can see the dictionary, what is the meaning, pretitio.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is it called, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Pretitio Principial. So what the public said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I just finish reading his article, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: He's giving very strong argument.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He says: "The Oxford Dictionary defines empirical as 'based on observation and experiment.' Observation and experiment is conducted with limited senses. Therefore the conclusions are naturally limited and imperfect. So in fact, the soul and the existence of God is quite beyond the power of Kovoor's observation. Why be so obstinate? This is common sense, a point anyone can understand. He says, 'It is the unique ability of man to engage in creative thinking that has made him succeed in his fight against the laws of nature.' This is a preposterous claim only a fool would make. Nature forces everyone to become old, diseased and, lastly, die. Even the most powerful conquerors of the world are helplessly dragged off the stage of life by nature in the shape of all-devouring death. But perhaps Dr. Kovoor will be the first living being in the history of the world that will conquer over death. That remains to be seen. And lastly he says, 'Some of the marvelous achievements of mankind in recent years are the liberation of atomic energy, radio telescopy to reach millions of light years in space, landing on the moon, etc.' Everyone knows that the first thing scientists did when discovering atomic energy was to manufacture the atom bomb and promptly drop two of them on Japan—Hiroshima and Nagasaki—thus annihilating millions of innocent victims in a flash. It is certainly marvelous. (Prabhupāda and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa chuckling) At the expense of untold billions of dollars and years of research and hard labor, scientists have gone to the moon, snapped a few blurry photos, and brought back a handful of rocks, declared to the world that 'There was nothing there, so now we will try to go to Mars.' What is so marvelous about this? It is completely lunacy, if anything. On our earthly planet, millions of people are without food, shelter and simple education. Instead of spending billions of dollars to bring rocks from the moon, science would be more credible if they would rather spend the hard-earned taxpayer's money for improving his own lot on earth. Rocks are rocks, whether from the Moon, from Mars or from China. Or is it that science can turn the rocks into bread and cheese by applying some chemicals? Now, to get to the main article, in answer to Kovoor's question of what objective evidence I have made the fantastic statement that life comes from life and matter also comes from life, and that there is soul, rebirth of the soul, and Supreme Soul, God, they say fight fire with fire, and so I have taken advantage of three scientists who happen to be members of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement and, I dare say, more qualified than the so-called Dr. Kovoor, who is only an honorary doctor . . ."

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. He's exposed now. ". . . whereas these men have actually qualified themselves in bona fide institutions of learning by submitting their theses for Ph.D. degrees. Dr. Kovoor boasts that for over twenty years he has challenged holy men to show him God or the soul, and no one has ever dared to take up his challenge. But now someone has come forward to challenge him. I have rented the Ramakrishna Mission Hall on the 20th of August, Saturday, 6:30 p.m. and invite him to accept my challenge on the stage before the public to produce life from chance biochemical combination. All are invited to attend. Admission free. Bring some chemicals if possible." (chuckling) He rented a hall. He's put out a challenge in the newspaper. Now we'll hear what the public is saying. I think he gave a good reply.

Prabhupāda: Very good. This is preaching.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "On the 28th and 29th of July we held Hare Kṛṣṇa festivals at one prominent hall and spoke on the origin of life and matter. The second evening this Dr. Kovoor showed up with seven or eight of his followers, all doctors and scientists of some sort. By your mercy and the mercy of the Lord—teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10)—the lecture which somehow emanated from my mouth was so brilliant that the audience, about one thousand people, who were all aware of Dr. Kovoor's presence and sensed the intention of challenge in the air, unanimously applauded as we spoke the last sentence." They unanimously applauded. "I then asked for questions, but the Dr. Kovoor and his friends did not make a peep, while everyone waited in dead silence. It was clear that he was defeated, hands down. After I came off the stage, he was still sitting in the audience. I went to him and gave him my garland so he might not feel bad." (laughter) So anyway, that's what happened there. He says: "Now we have exhausted all possibilities of extending our visas here. We were not able to meet the Prime Minister again, so he is very busy rewriting the constitution of this country. So I thought the most inexpensive move is to come to India, and then I could also see you and perhaps be visiting secretary for some time, then return again. Or I could go to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, etc. in the Far East, Southeast Asia, and try to preach there, touring different cities to see the prospects."

Prabhupāda: That is very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's nice? That'll be good.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, all blessings of Kṛṣṇa upon them. They are doing very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "Bali-mardana was there years ago, and he seemed to be doing well. It is just that with all these countries, visa is a great problem. They demand always so much foreign exchange. Please let me know what I should do. I have also six other men who have to leave. If I go to the Far East, I could not take them all, just one or two. If possible, telegram, as mail is slow. I have three weeks as of today. By 30th August I have to go. Please reply this letter immediately." So we'll tell him to go to the . . . (indistinct comments to others) "Yes, I need my own field, perhaps due to my obstinacy, as Your Divine Grace pointed out. I cannot seem to blend in someone else's field. I am really engaged here and very happy by your grace. You will be pleased to know that we have made another devotee. Sri Lanka is definitely a first-class field for preaching . . ."

Prabhupāda: So maintain the branch by local devotee.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Sri Lanka is definitely a first-class field for preaching, and we are being accepted by Sindhis, Gujaratis, Tamils and Sinhalese, Christians and Buddhists alike. All kinds of people are becoming attracted to the movement. It is very encouraging. Only the government policies are a nuisance. We now have twenty-five Life Members." Why can't he just go out and get a visa and go back in? Just like we go out and come right back, why can't he come to . . . get a visa and then go right back in?

Gargamuni: He can do it in two days.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he can do that, is that best?

Prabhupāda: That would be very nice. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Because if he leaves now, whatever he's done will be lost. Those new men are not ready yet to do on their own.

Prabhupāda: He can come and go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. "The Sinhalese and Tamil translations are going on slowly but surely. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will be a tremendous success here. Simply books are required." He says, "To be svāmī is all right, but I also want to be a qualified gosvāmī some day. Is it possible for me?"

Prabhupāda: Yes, you are already. You are doing very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "P.S. When is the scientific conference led by Svarūpa Dāmodara? We have also called for a meeting on the 20th August in the biggest hall in Colombo and challenged Dr. Kovoor to be present and produce life from chemicals. I doubt, however, that he will show up. But the audience will be tremendous, at least twenty-five hundred people to be sure. At all our programs we distribute halavā profusely. People here have never tasted such a thing. They love it. Halavā beats chemicals any time." So I can read you more later on, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: On the whole, they . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Come out very nice.

Gurukṛpa: Yes. This is very nice. Big, too. Thick.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "We are always praying to Kṛṣṇa that He will give us the spiritual strength to help you in your mission of spreading Lord Caitanya's mercy. Now we are also constantly praying, 'Dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, if You desire, please cure Śrīla Prabhupāda.' Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are most grateful for Tamāla Kṛṣṇa's recent letter, in which he reports how much you enjoyed Back to Godhead issue number 7." This is number 8. "This is our only purpose in life, to give you some little amount of pleasure by our service. The devotees are also enjoying the magazine very much, especially your talks with Hayagrīva Prabhu on the bogus philosophers, and the 'Śrīla Prabhupāda Speaks Out' feature." The devotees like that too much, "Prabhupāda Speaks Out." "Please accept this Vyāsa-pūjā issue, Back to Godhead 12.8. We are offering to you this drop of gratitude for the ocean of love you are giving us. Please help us continue to work together in pushing on your great movement to benedict the world with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Your insignificant servants . . ."

Prabhupāda: How many copies they have published?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think . . . I got a letter from Satsvarūpa yesterday. I think this issue was 400,000. It varies between 400- and 500,000 copies. Generally about a half a million every month. Pretty good standard.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (devotees offer obeisances) (break) . . . bad education. They have learned to. No education. (aside) Get this down here. I am seriously thinking how to do. Organized, a society for sinful activities, Western. Now you are advanced, sincerely carry on. At least in America.

Gurukṛpā: This restaurant is very good propaganda. They get a higher taste. I've seen on the airplane when I went last time. I had some cookies from the restaurant, so I gave them to the pilot, the stewardess, and said to give them to everyone. And they came and said, "Oh, we have been to your restaurant. We appreciate very much. It is very nice."

Prabhupāda: In this way we have to change their mentality.

Gurukṛpā: If they . . . we make aware of the actual suffering they are causing on the animals.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Gurukṛpā:. If they are aware . . . they are not really aware of the actual suffering that they're causing the animals.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They think the animals don't have any feelings or soul.

Prabhupāda: No, they think in so many way, nonsense rascals. What is the value of their thinking? Rascals. All number one rascals. They say: "Why do you . . .?" But they, how they can believe? Their whole life is belief, no factual knowledge.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they will believe that man didn't go to the moon. When Śrīla Prabhupāda wrote that in Easy Journey, Hayagrīva took it out of the book, saying that "How will they believe this?"

Prabhupāda: Believe. "I believe." You can say also, "I believe." You can say: "I believe." Where is the standard?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: This is their life, "I believe." Whatever he believes, that's all right. This is going on.

Gurukṛpā: The difficulty is they have no intelligence to understand what they are doing. But if . . . by mass prasādam distribution they will get intelligence to see the serious sins they are doing.

Prabhupāda: Whole thing is "I believe," "Unless I believe . . ." Anyone can believe something. Is that knowledge?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, it's not knowledge. Opinion. Opinion of a drunkard, as you said the other day.

Prabhupāda: Drunkard believes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The madman in the mental institution, when you go in there, each one of them is speaking so many things.

Prabhupāda: He believes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Would you like the fan on, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Gurukṛpā: You mentioned in one of your books that everyone in this material world is considered mad, and a madman speaks all sorts of things. Whatever they speak is to be considered nonsense, because they're all mad.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some nice mail today, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) (end)