771011 - Conversation A - Vrndavana
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Devotee: This is one introductory . . . "Bhaktivedanta Institute Lecture Series on the Origin of Life and Matter, sponsored by Bhaktivedanta Institute."
Devotee (2): Get Prabhupāda's glasses.
Prabhupāda: Get this.
Upendra: Here is a copy . . .
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, I was given a copy of this also this morning.
Devotee (2): This is a partial list of those who've been invited.
Devotee: No. I've given full.
Dr. Kapoor: How many of these people are going to speak?
Devotee: From the United States?
Devotee (2): No, of these people.
Rūpānuga: (background discussion about devotees coming) Svarūpa Dāmodara has invited a couple of opposing scientists to speak, also, so that we can discuss two points of view.
Dr. Kapoor: That's good.
Rūpānuga: Yes. A couple of important men.
Devotee (2): Which of our men are speaking?
Rūpānuga: Also some of our . . . three of our GBC men have been invited to speak in an informal discussion in the evening—Satsvarūpa Mahārāja, Haṁsadūta Mahārāja, and one other. I'm not sure.
Dr. Kapoor: Are these tulasī beads red-colored?
Rūpānuga: No, no. Very old beads.
Dr. Kapoor: What are they made of?
Rūpānuga: I don't know.
Dr. Kapoor: Not tulasī?
Rūpānuga: No.
Brahmānanda: These are the original beads that we got in New York when Prabhupāda made the first initiations. There were no tulasī beads available in New York City.
Dr. Kapoor: No, I see. (laughs)
Rūpānuga: We went to a bead shop on 14th Street.
Dr. Kapoor: I see. (laughs)
Rūpānuga: Japanese beads.
Dr. Kapoor: That has some historic significance, yes.
Rūpānuga: Actually, they come out to be very long. Six feet.
Dr. Kapoor: You can now get tulasī beads from here, because it should really speaking be tulasī and not any other thing. Japa-mālā.
Rūpānuga: Śrīla Prabhupāda chanted on these, so . . .
Brahmānanda: Now they're tulasī.
Dr. Kapoor: (laughs) (pause) Prabhupāda seems to be slightly better today. He takes interest in other things and wants to speak.
Brahmānanda: You're feeling better today, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Clear na holo oi syrup ta na! (That syrup has cleared.)
Dr. Kapoor: That syrup, he says, that has . . .
Prabhupāda: Oi kaviraji osudh kheye holo (This has happened after taking the kaviraja's medicine . . .) (indistinct)
Dr. Kapoor: Let us see. Apply the method of elimination. Eliminate the syrup today and see what the effect is.
Brahmānanda: Syrups have made some difficulty?
Dr. Kapoor: Syrups, he says, they seem to be somewhat intoxicating.
Brahmānanda: These are by the allopathic or by the . . .
Dr. Kapoor: Must be allopathic, because the syrups are tonics. Every tonic has that effect partly.
Prabhupāda: Only work the kavirāja's strong medicine. I think that on the whole, the condition is not better.
Dr. Kapoor: That I think is due to the syrups, you see. The intoxicating effect can be of the syrups only. Because in allopathic there is some alcohol mixed always. So let us eliminate that today and see how the Āyurveda medicine alone works. Nothing intoxicating in the Āyurvedic medicine.
Brahmānanda: I know one of the medicines had twenty-five percent caffeine.
Dr. Kapoor: Āyurvedic?
Brahmānanda: No. The allopathic.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh. Allopathic. The syrup that was brought.
Brahmānanda: Yeah, I'm not . . . one of them. Upendra was saying.
Dr. Kapoor: Let us stop that today.
Prabhupāda: On the whole, the nature of the conference, how do you like?
Dr. Kapoor: Nature of the conference?
Brahmānanda: How do you like, on the whole, the nature of the conference?
Dr. Kapoor: It's a good idea. It should be . . . the conference should be interesting at least. (laughs)
Brahmānanda: You're coming?
Dr. Kapoor: I'll try to come. My wife has been ailing, so I'll try to find time and come.
Brahmānanda: Begins on Friday in the morning.
Dr. Kapoor: Friday in the morning. No, three days perhaps.
Brahmānanda: Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Rūpānuga: Ten-thirty Friday, it begins. About 10:30 in the morning.
Dr. Kapoor: Ten-thirty.
Prabhupāda: All bona fide scientists.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes. It should be a very representative gathering if they all come. Should be a very representative.
Brahmānanda: He's expecting ninety to come.
Dr. Kapoor: Ninety to come, oh. Then it will be a grand success.
Prabhupāda: Eisob eder theory holo . . . (All their theories are . . .) they are doing nonsense. Vivekananda's theory, Darwin's theory . . . who is that? Ram? Ramakrishna's theory. Another. What is that Ram? Hmm?
Brahmānanda: Another Ram?
Dr. Kapoor: Ramtirtha.
Prabhupāda: Ramtirtha. Without life, life coming is bogus. Darwin's theory. Have all been discussed?
Brahmānanda: In this booklet? I haven't see it.
Dr. Kapoor: The most wonderful thing is that they say life comes from matter, and they don't know what matter is. They don't know what matter is. They confess, "We don't know what matter is." Yet they say life comes from matter. Not one scientist till today has been able to say what matter is. Rather, they have confessed. You see, they say: "I know not what matter is." Even the biggest scientists, they have made this confession.
Prabhupāda: And a person from whom life is coming, He says aham ādir hi (BG 10.2). And they will not come. Where is Tamāla Kṛṣṇa?
Hari-śauri: He's in a BBT Trustee's meeting right now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Now, whatever direction . . .
Brahmānanda: Prabhupāda was saying that one of the medicines has made some intoxicating . . .
Upendra: He hasn't taken any medicines or any of the syrups that the previous doctor recommended. Just . . .
Brahmānanda: Nothing from the allopathic.
Upendra: No. We've given him this morning protein, liquid protein, one spoonful in the juice he drank. You're talking about this morning? And yesterday we gave him glucose and one spoonful of Liquiline Natural Herb.
Brahmānanda: So no allopathic medicines were given?
Upendra: No. Nor were they recommended. They were just . . . if you want to call them allopathic nutrients . . . no medicines.
Dr. Kapoor: No, but were those syrups given?
Upendra: No.
Dr. Kapoor: No.
Bhavānanda: What was given yesterday?
Upendra: Yesterday the bhinbukshu cream. Yes, that was given, the green bottle and the bottle up there. Yesterday barley water in the morning with a little bit of Complan. And after that, some cough developed, and then the doctor came and they gave some of that medicine with mosambi juice.
Brahmānanda: Which medicine?
Upendra: The Āyurvedic. The vaidya.
Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā. Ācchā.
Upendra: I don't know what it is. He had grape, glucose and whey. Then he had this vitamin here, this one. Then he had some more medicine with mosambi juice, and that was it yesterday.
Hari-śauri: This is vitamins.
Rūpānuga: It doesn't say there's any alcohol in it.
Upendra: There isn't . . . they're Shaklee products.
Rūpānuga: One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, even after fasting for a long time, even some sugar, even sweets make intoxication in the system. Glucose and the sweet juices, fruit juices, this may make a little intoxication.
Upendra: Yes, this morning he had grape, glucose and one spoonful of that instant protein. That would have been really energetic.
Dr. Kapoor: This bottle is pure vitamins or something else?
Brahmānanda: Yes. There's no . . .
Dr. Kapoor: No alcohol.
Brahmānanda: No.
Rūpānuga: Mādhava, can you explain to Śrīla Prabhupāda who the speakers are?
Mādhava: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Svarūpa Dāmodara has invited scientists from Delhi University . . .
Brahmānanda: Who will speak? Who will be the speakers?
Mādhava: I think Dr. Mishra is coming to speak, and Dr . . .
Dr. Kapoor: Which Dr. Mishra?
Mādhava: Is that R.K.? R.K. I haven't spoken to him myself. He's going to be speaking on Sunday.
Brahmānanda: What are these cards?
Mādhava: These are the same names as the list.
Dr. Kapoor: Where is he from?
Mādhava: He's from Delhi University, I believe. He's from the AIIMS, the All-India Institute of Medical Science. He's head of the Biophysics department. There was a Dr. Kavoor, I believe his name was. Kavoor?
Dr. Kapoor: Where? From here?
Brahmānanda: From Sri Lanka.
Mādhava: No, no. That was . . . (laughter) Let's see. He was . . .
Jayādvaita: He can be invited to be kicked with shoes.
Mādhava: Maybe it was Kival. No, here it is, Kapil. He's from Delhi University. He's in the Botany department.
Dr. Kapoor: He's going to speak?
Mādhava: He's going to speak.
Rūpānuga: Then there's some opposing.
Mādhava: There's one . . . yes. I think it was Dr. Mishra who was going to give some ideas of his own that were a little different from ours.
Dr. Kapoor: Dr. Mishra from Delhi University. Physics department.
Mādhava: Yes. Biophysics. He was going to give a talk on the theory of living states.
Dr. Kapoor: Are any of those people from the Philosophy department of Delhi University, are they going to speak?
Mādhava: There was some coming from the Philosophy department, but I don't think they're going to speak. There was one who's going to speak on the limitations of science. I don't know if his name is listed here. Oh, yes, here it is, Dr. Ramaya. He's going to speak on the limitations of scientific method.
Dr. Kapoor: Scientific method. Is he a philosopher or a scientist?
Mādhava: It doesn't say that. Biochemistry.
Dr. Kapoor: Biochemistry.
Prabhupāda: We are concerned with the scientists.
Brahmānanda: Yes, these are all scientists. They're philosophers?
Mādhava: This one philosopher is coming.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, no, but is any of the philosophers going to speak?
Mādhava: No.
Dr. Kapoor: So you'll not go to the root of the problem, you see. It will be something superficial.
Mādhava: We consider the philosophers to be superficial. They have no evidence to back up their words.
Dr. Kapoor: (laughing) That can be a subject for discussion by itself. All the modern scientists are taking to philosophy, because there comes a stage in scientific investigation, you see, where you cannot but philosophize. You see?
Mādhava: Yes. But the philosophers cannot continue in their own speculations.
Dr. Kapoor: What is philosophy? Philosophy is not thinking in vacuum. Philosophy is systematic thinking. It is systematic thinking. The scientists must be systematic. And . . .
Prabhupāda: The scientists . . . without systematic, how it is science?
Dr. Kapoor: Yes. And the science is basically unsystematic in the fact that it starts with certain assumptions, which by itself is unscientific. Why should you start with certain assumptions? Philosophy does not commit that. Philosophy . . . I don't raise the questions. You see? Why do you believe that matter is ultimate? Why do you believe that spirit and time are ultimate? Science believes in assumptions. Philosophy has not taken for granted. Very systematic thinking, really. Therefore I say you'll not go to the root of the matter. It will be just superficial things.
Mādhava: We are trying to apply both. We are adding the philosophy into this science.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, both. As a matter of fact, there is no watertight compartment. They're not simply a part of each. They're dovetailed. Science penetrates into philosophy, you see?
Rūpānuga: But the root of the problem practically is whether life comes from matter and matter comes from life, and that is the basic theme . . .
Dr. Kapoor: That is the basic theme, but the philosopher will ask the question, "You must first be very clear in your mind about these basic concepts, 'What is life and what is matter?' " You may have some idea about life. Because we are life ourselves, we have some experience, some idea of life. But what is matter? No scientist has any clear conception of matter.
Prabhupāda: Matter has no consciousness.
Brahmānanda: But matter has no consciousness.
Dr. Kapoor: Matter has no consciousness, but what exactly it is? And you see, I tell you, matter has no consciousness—this is also an assumption. You see? The analysis of matter has revealed to the scientist, the physicist, that what remains in the ultimate analysis is at least not matter.
Prabhupāda: Matter, when you combine together, reveals some reaction. That's all.
Brahmānanda: When you combine matter together, it just gives some reaction.
Dr. Kapoor: True, but the question remains . . .
Prabhupāda: Just like soda, acid and soda. Mixed together, there will be effervescence. That is matter. And life means gives impetus, "Do this." It is not comparable thing.
Upendra: Time for giving him this juice, so . . . (break)
Prabhupāda: A child can speak sensibly, "Mother, give me this." But soda, alkaline and acid, mixed, it can give some dead effervescence.
Dr. Kapoor: Matter can produce matter only.
Prabhupāda: That's all. It has no sense.
Dr. Kapoor: Another form of matter, that is all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: Matter cannot produce life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A third matter. That is matter. You can take matter and . . . tejo-vāri-mṛd-vinimayam. Mix earth with water, and put it into fire, and then make a building. But matter automatically cannot do it. This is . . .
Dr. Kapoor: Yes. It's mind that manipulates matter.
Prabhupāda: Matter cannot have mind, neither consciousness nor impetus.
Dr. Kapoor: But this philosophical discussion strains you, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Brahmānanda: He's saying you are strained by this philosophical discussion we're having.
Prabhupāda: No. It is nonsense that matter gives life. That we want to prove. Matter has no . . . matter, I have studied it. Life is superior energy. Apareyam. This matter is useless. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ manaḥ (BG 7.4). They are inferior. Apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakṛtim. Another, yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). This is actually governing the whole universe. They are defying this apareyaṁ me prakṛ . . . parā. They are not accepting. The scientists are speculators, most of them. Philosopher means materially thinking.
Brahmānanda: Materially . . .
Prabhupāda: Thinking.
Brahmānanda: Thinking.
Dr. Kapoor: So I think I should take leave, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Dr. Kapoor: If I stay on, we'll continue to speak.
Brahmānanda: So they are getting now free transportation. "For all invited guests—food, lodging, and transportation between Delhi and Agra, and the conference site will be arranged free of charge." So these are all confirmations, people's signatures.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Prabhupāda: Who is giving free?
Brahmānanda: We are giving free transportation, lodging and food.
Dr. Kapoor: Free transportation from Delhi. Not from other places.
Brahmānanda: No, just Agra and Delhi. I think everyone is invited from these two places. These have been mailed in? Or our men have gone?
Mādhava: They have been mailed in.
Brahmānanda: These are mailed replies. These have been posted invitations.
Mādhava: They expect about 150 people altogether.
Dr. Kapoor: Anyway, it's going to be an interesting thing, the first of its kind in Vṛndāvana.
Brahmānanda: I think in the . . . this is the first conference you've had?
Mādhava: Yes.
Brahmānanda: It's the first in the world.
Rūpānuga: First time.
Dr. Kapoor: First in the world. (laughs)
Brahmānanda: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break) Ātreya Ṛṣi and Parivrājakācārya Swami are here.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Hari-śauri: They brought you a big plate of fruits and things, from Tehran.
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is sweet lemon.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It is sweet lemon. The juice is very sweet.
Prabhupāda: Now give me.
Upendra: Some of the juice.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: These are plums. They could be skinned and the drink is very good for you, soft.
Upendra: Juice comes from them?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It's very, very good for digestion.
Prabhupāda: Sit down.
Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This is a pre-publication copy of our first magazine in Persian language.
Prabhupāda: This is Persian language?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Parsi, Parsi.
Brahmānanda: This is the name of it here?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. The name is "Bhakti."
Parivrājakācārya: The name is "Bhakti."
Prabhupāda: I understand that you go to the royal family and talk with them for hours. So it is very good sign.
Parivrājakācārya: Yes. There's . . . some people in their family are very good, and they're very interested in learning about Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They can do . . . they can do very good things for the world if they simply have knowledge of what to do. So we're trying to preach to intelligent people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, intelligent. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). What intelligent man takes up, so ordinary man, ordinary generally follow. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for rājarṣi, not for foolish. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Not for a so-called loafer class. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham (BG 4.1). That is being mistaken. Bhagavad-gītā should be taught to such royal family, and if they take up, others will take up. Hmm? Ātreya Ṛṣi?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Do you follow?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: This is a good chance that you have got, a connection with royal family, and if you turn them to saintly, then the work is successful. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham (BG 4.1). Not that third-class foolish can understand what is Bhagavad-gītā. The same building I went to see?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. Jaya. That building now is a restaurant. We have many people every night come and take prasādam. About seventy to a hundred people come.
Prabhupāda: What do you supply?
Hari-śauri: What do you supply?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: We give them one thāli—two vegetables, ḍāl, rice, salad . . .
Prabhupāda: One thāli? Thāli?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: One full thāli.
Hari-śauri: Plate.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Thāli of prasādam. And sweet. And then we give them some herbal tea and dessert and sometimes fruits.
Prabhupāda: They like it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They like it very much. Nandarāṇī Prabhu and Dayānanda Prabhu are managing.
Prabhupāda: They are both intelligent.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They are working very hard.
Prabhupāda: And they are very sincere. What do you charge?
Parivrājakācārya: About sixteen rupees, fifteen tomands. It is very little price. It's very small.
Prabhupāda: For one plate?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: One plate. Very reasonable price. But many people give donations. And many of them take the books. We have your books. They take, and they read it, and they love it.
Prabhupāda: Success.
Hari-śauri: What kind of people do you get?
Prabhupāda: High class.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Higher class. Very intelligent, educated . . .
Prabhupāda: The low class, they purchase that big roṭi. (laughs) That's all.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Big cāpāṭi.
Prabhupāda: They cannot come to the restaurant.
Parivrājakācārya: No.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some people even come, higher class people, and work. They give their service in the restaurant. They wash dishes. They serve tables. We engage them in bhakti-yoga.
Brahmānanda: What's the name of the restaurant?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Govinda.
Prabhupāda: So you make good profit.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's your mercy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (Prabhupāda chuckles) They respect you a lot in Tehran. The royalty respects you. The businessmen respect you. They really respect Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Persian civilization, very high, Aryan civilization.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There was this Persian boy who was translating Bhagavad-gītā. He had come with me last month to Vṛndāvana to have your darśana. Then you had gone to London.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, things are going nice—slow but sure. You have got this Persian civilization and he has got the African civilization. (laughter) Black and white.
Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, ektu osudh ache. (Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have medicine for now.)
Prabhupāda: Hya. (Yes.)
Bhakti-caru: Ekhon neben to? (Will you take that now?)
Prabhupāda: Yakhan debar katha sei . . . ei yeman, yeman boleche ektu thik thik preparation karo . . . amake ekhon ya debe, mori ar baci nebo. Moreichi to . . . (When you need to give it, then . . . as they have said, do like that . . . whatever you will give me now, whether I die or live, I will take it. I have already died . . .)
Bhakti-caru: (laughs) Na Srila Prabhupad. (No Srila Prabhupāda.)
Prabhupāda: Ar . . . (And . . .)
Bhakti-caru: Tahole amader ki hobe? (Then what will happen to us?)
Prabhupāda: Kichui nei, material har ka khana roye geche . . . egiye yao tomra . . . (Nothing is left in my body, only material bones are there . . . all of you have to move forward . . .) (break) . . . coming with the report of Persia and . . .
Hari-śauri: He's saying he's very much pleased when you gave the report of Persia.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: You should come and visit us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: I am ready to go immediately.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. You will come, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There are millions of people waiting for you.
Prabhupāda: And now you have to take a bundle of bones. That is the difficulty. There is nothing . . . bundle of bone.
Bhakti-caru: Bone or flesh, your body is divine, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Bone is being separated from life. Here, by example, the matter is different from life. Matter is inferior; life is superior. From my life you can . . . why the Persian people love me?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They respect your philosophy, Śrīla Prabhupāda. They understand the philosophy. They respect the philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They respect chanting. They see that your boys are pious and they're chanting the names of God and they're doing wonderful things, and they respect it. They see your books, wonderful philosophy, always glorifying God. They respect God. They're religious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And they know that nobody else is doing this.
Prabhupāda: Persians, they are Aryans. When they were attacked by the Muhammadans they fled from Persia to India. (break)
Ātreya Ṛṣi: . . . and they come regularly. Some of them come every night to take prasādam, respectful, very nice Parsis who have come back from India to Iran.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Some of them gone there.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes. They have come back because there are very good jobs, and government is encouraging them to come back. So they come back.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And actually Persians have very high philosophy, but they don't have no one who will engage them in devotional service. And the most intelligent ones see that you are actually engaging people in devotional service. And there is no one—no one in Iran—despite their high philosophies, who is engaging anybody in devotional service. So they see the results, and that's why they respect you.
Prabhupāda: So as soon as I get opportunity, I shall go and meet them.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Prabhupāda: Very good chance.
Parivrājakācārya: These people, they are the door to people all over the world who are rulers, because they are the closest friends of King Khalid of Saudi Arabia, King Hussein of Jordan, King Constantine and Queen Tina of Greece. They know all over the world this whole set of rulers who have great opulence and great intelligence and who simply lack spiritual knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Guidance.
Parivrājakācārya: They lack guidance. They lack brāhmaṇas. Instead, they have cunning ministers who simply want to have the same opulences as they have. But these are the people, they can change the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Parivrājakācārya: If we can only give them philosophy, they can do the . . .
Prabhupāda: Rāja. And if we turn them ṛṣi, then our mission is fulfilled. Very good. Now you have started your own business.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. With your blessing. The business is not important, but it is a medium for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. My secretary is already a devotee, and the other people are also becoming interested. The goal is to have a Kṛṣṇa conscious group working in the society.
Prabhupāda: Go very slowly. Never mind. You all young men. All right. Go on chanting. (kīrtana) (break) (end)
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