771027 - Conversation A - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

771027R1-VRNDAVAN - October 27, 1977 - 23:49 Minutes

(Conversation with Hari Prasad Badruka)

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Pañca-draviḍa: Shall we continue reading, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pañca-draviḍa: This is the chapter "Description of the Rāsa Dance." (break)

Prabhupāda: It will be bhavauṣadhi. So there is no other . . . I shall ask, whenever I require it, fruit juice. That is my food, and this kīrtana is my medicine. And parikramā. Settle up this.

Śatadhanya: Fruit juice, kīrtana and parikramā.

Prabhupāda: Believe in Kṛṣṇa. Hmm. I am hearing kīrtana how very nice here. It is stated in the śāstra, nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra . . . (SB 10.1.4). This is the medicine, panacea, for material disease. So kindly let me hear kīrtana as far as possible, long as I live.

Śatadhanya: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Eh? That is all right?

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda. Yes, Prabhupāda. (kīrtana) (break)

Prabhupāda: I'm thirsty. Fruit juice?

Śatadhanya: Would you like some fruit juice now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)

Hari Prasad: Everything is all right.

Prabhupāda: It is improving?

Hari Prasad: Yes, it is. (break)

Pañca-draviḍa: We have an arrangement now that Spanish BBT is sending funds every month to Hyderabad temple to finish the construction, and then, to pay back the loan that you gave, we're also sending in contributions to pay back that loan.

Prabhupāda: So, (laughs) what do I need? The money is coming from outside. Never mind.

Hari Prasad: There is no lack of money, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So, in the temple everything is going on?

Hari Prasad: Yes, it's going on.

Prabhupāda: People are coming?

Hari Prasad: Yes, many people are coming. And it has become very . . .

Prabhupāda: Popular.

Hari Prasad: It is already popular.

Prabhupāda: No, sevā-pūjā will . . .

Hari Prasad: Everybody is concerned about your health.

Prabhupāda: And sevā-pūjā is brilliant?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sevā-pūjā is very nice?

Hari Prasad: Yes, everything is very, very much regulated now.

Prabhupāda: Execute. Śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṇgāra-tan-mandira-mārjanādau. Here it was vacant, my lot. Now, by Kṛṣṇa's grace, so many people are coming. Prasādam distribution is going there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the farm?

Hari Prasad: No, Prabhupāda. So far, they haven't started. When you were there for a few weeks, one or two weeks they had done it.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari Prasad: When you were there at Hyderabad, at the farm, for one or two weeks the prasādam distribution was there.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Why? Why they are not distributing now?

Hari Prasad: They have stopped it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Probably they're not getting the funds from the Food Relief program. Just now the temples have started to send in money for Food Relief, so Jayapatākā must be sending them money.

Hari Prasad: I do not know. Till I left, three days back, there was no distribution of prasādam.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the past there hasn't been on some days?

Hari Prasad: When Prabhupāda was there, continuously they had after you left for a week or two.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa reported that there was prasādam distribution.

Hari Prasad: For a week or two. No, once in a while they were doing it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa reports that on the weekends they do it. He reported . . .

Devotee: Probably.

Hari Prasad: But not daily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, no, not daily. He said that on the weekends he does. In Māyāpur they do on the weekends.

Bhavānanda: We do every day. But on the weekends we serve khicuṛi, and during the week we serve . . .

Hari Prasad: But prasādam distribution had a real good effect in that time when it was started. Many people had started coming then. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . see that prasādam distribution goes on.

Hari Prasad: The weather at Hyderabad is now very pleasant.

Prabhupāda: Now.

Hari Prasad: Yes. And it will remain for another two months.

Prabhupāda: Very pleasant.

Hari Prasad: Now it will, after this śarat-pūrṇimā, just a pleasant, cool climate starts. And it's not moist or sultry there.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari Prasad: It is not sultry. In the daytime also it is quite pleasant, not very warm.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Vegetable growing?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vegetables are growing?

Hari Prasad: Yes, vegetables are . . .

Prabhupāda: And rice, ḍāl?

Hari Prasad: Paddy is good this year. They have grown. There was drought. For one month there had been no rains when it should have been, in September. Whole of September was dry. Otherwise entire twenty acres of paddy they had, and six acres which is fed from irrigation from tanks is very good. Paddy, maize also. (break)

Prabhupāda: Things are improving.

Hari Prasad: Yes, they are. There is no worry as far as this management of the temple and farm is concerned.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahāṁśa is doing nicely.

Hari Prasad: Both are very much dedicated and devoted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Tejiyas is doing nice?

Hari Prasad: Tejiyas, his movements are too many. That is a problem.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says Tejiyas moves around too much.

Hari Prasad: He's not fully fixed up to the farm. But as far as temple manage, very much regulated now, with . . . after Śrīdhara Swami has come. It has been all perfectly streamlined.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīdhara Swami is doing nicely.

Hari Prasad: Yes, Prabhu.

Pañca-draviḍa: The construction is going on nicely?

Hari Prasad: Yes, construction is . . . but except a very slow stage, but that is not fault of the . . . their labor, availability, and all that. They come and they just now come. It is a usual practice for these small, small things. I think it should finish now in about a month's time. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . thousand people at evening ārati.

Hari Prasad: One thing, Prabhupāda, this discourse and all is not, in the evenings, which should have been there. It was earlier, when . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no discourse in the evening?

Bhavānanda: When Acyutānanda was there.

Hari Prasad: When Acyutānanda was there he was attracting crowds and . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīdhara doesn't discourse?

Hari Prasad: But that type, just reading from Bhāgavatam or Śrīmad-Bhāgavata, doesn't . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Acyutānanda was giving good discourse.

Hari Prasad: Yes, he was every time, I think. When he was there, three, four hundred minimum crowd used to be there, and they used to take interest in question-answers. And it had become a lively, interesting . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good speaker has to be there.

Hari Prasad: Yes, good speaker, or . . . or on this Caitanya philosophy daily, if some lectures are arranged and discourse is arranged. If you can permit, Prabhupāda, there's Bhāgavatam discourse in the daytime, and all of this who know Hindi fluently on Caitanya philosophy . . . yesterday I saw this rāsa-līlā also. If suppose some rāsa arrangement also is made.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that there should be good speaker in Hindi. But Acyutānanda could not speak Hindi.

Hari Prasad: No, no. His was a different thing, whether Hindi or English. He was attracting very big crowd.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It has to be good speaker.

Hari Prasad: His bhajanas and all that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There has to be something besides the ārati, he says. There should be some lecture.

Hari Prasad: It has become more or less a pilgrim center. Anybody who comes to Hyderabad must visit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Really?

Hari Prasad: Yes, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is the most popular temple in Hyderabad?

Hari Prasad: Yes, yes, definitely. After that Veṅkateśvara, Birla temple and these two temples, anybody who comes, they visit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That temple is finished now? Birla's temple?

Hari Prasad: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On the hill. But not as many people go . . . (break) . . . successful temple, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Two thousand people at the evening ārati.

Hari Prasad: No, but they can come for this discourse or education on our philosophy and all that. If that starts, it would be a wonderful thing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact. Such a nice facility.

Hari Prasad: It would be a really wonderful thing then.

Pañca-draviḍa: Lokanātha is . . .

Hari Prasad: People would love to . . . there, in the South India, people are interested in such type of philosophy. And they discuss, they argue, they get convinced or they convince you, and they don't feel offended.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I remember they like to discuss philosophy.

Pañca-draviḍa: So many were coming for hearing Śrīla Prabhupāda when he was there. Has Lokanātha Swami ever visited there?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you want him to stay there all the time?

Pañca-draviḍa: No, to visit. See how he would do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the thing is someone has to always be there. There has to always be programs.

Hari Prasad: Use of guesthouse also is made in the temple.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How many rooms in the guesthouse?

Hari Prasad: I think four rooms.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And people use it?

Hari Prasad: Yes. Sometimes people come stay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Members?

Hari Prasad: Yes, members.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The rooms are nice?

Hari Prasad: They're all well built. As far as management of the temple, management side is perfect. Financial side sometimes causes worry.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good. The management is good. That is very good. Usually that is always a problem.

Hari Prasad: No, management side of both the farm and the temple is good. It's really, I should say, remarkable achievement.

Pañca-draviḍa: How about Mr. Polareddy? Does he show interest? Does he come?

Hari Prasad: He's very much devoted, dedicated.

Pañca-draviḍa: Maybe in the future he'd give the front land to the temple?

Hari Prasad: That is a . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not interested, he's not . . . (break) (testing tape)

Prabhupāda: Unless one is rogue, he would not like. (laughs) Kṛṣṇa consciousness . . .

yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā

sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ

harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā

mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ

(SB 5.18.12)

These are the śāstra. Mano-rathena, those who are on the speculative platform, they cannot have their spiritual qualities. It is a . . . to the modern world it is a novel idea. It is not idea; this is original qualification. Part and parcel of God, it must be godlike. Gold is gold, may be a small particle. Similarly, living entity, part and parcel of God, so it is God undoubtedly—in a small particle. But that is sufficient for his perfection. They are being misled other ways, in the wrong side. So who will not like it, unless he's a rogue. Huh?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, they would even give us permanent residency, but they are scared that if they give it to us they will have to give it to everybody else. So therefore they're not giving it to us.

Prabhupāda: Never mind. We have got big establishment and our these European and American young boys, they have been trained up. Otherwise, how could I manage? We have nothing to do with politics. Rather, we are giving social service. What we'll do, politics? It is not our business. There are so many people. So the government should give us chance to organize a society for the highest benefit of human being. And they can see from our books what is our idea. (break)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . printing books and exporting these books, and this way we're earning so much foreign exchange for the Indian economy. They liked it.

Prabhupāda: Did you show them the invoice of what book already we have got?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told him the amount. I told him this year we have orders for Rs. twenty-five lakhs, and I said: "This is just the first year, and worldwide we print over eight crores. So this is just the beginning." So they liked it. And I also gave him the Hindi Bhāgavatam like you had told me. And he turned out . . . this man who is handling our case is a Marwari, Mr. Pandy. So Marwaris are very pious; they're better than these others. So he liked the Hindi Bhāgavatam very much. So I gave him the Hindi Bhāgavatam and the English. (break)

Prabhupāda: You are not to be gagged anymore?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Trivikrama: Not to be gagged. (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That was our biggest problem. The president of India is presently in Hyderabad, so Mahāṁśa Mahārāja was in Delhi, and we have a Life Member, Panilal Peddy in Hyderabad . . . Polareddy, who knows the President very well. So I asked Mahāṁśa Mahārāja to go with Polareddy to the President to see if he will come to Bombay to inaugurate our temple. Also, we are thinking of inviting some foreign ministers of countries like Nepal, which is a Hindu kingdom, and Mauritius. Because if these foreign ministers or some minister from these countries come, then it will lend more credit, and we'll get better coverage.

Prabhupāda: You can show our South African success.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very grand opening is being planned for Bombay, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: So many.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: If the President of India comes, then it will get front-page coverage.

Prabhupāda: Who is the President?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is the President now?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: N. Sanjeeva Reddy. He's more religious than the previous one.

Prabhupāda: Sanjeeva, he was Home Minister? No.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that was Brahmananda Reddy, who you met. We had a program at his house once.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When was that?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Two years ago.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where was it?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Delhi. And Prabhupāda met him and asked him for the same thing, for visas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. You've been asking this for quite a few years, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think if Indira Gandhi would have been in power we wouldn't have got it. But Janata Party is better for us. Because Indira . . . Brahmananda Reddy would always say he'd give it—I saw him several times—but do nothing. (break) . . . party's a little more positive in this direction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What will they give? Will they give you a letter officially or something?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And plus they're writing a letter to the Indian embassies abroad that if any ISKCON devotee applies, he should be given a three-year visa straight.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Phew!

Prabhupāda: That will be nice.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But I was just speaking to Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja that the GBCs, we should devise a policy so that this advantage is not misused. Because sometimes devotees just come over here, stay here for some time, do some nonsense and go back.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then they may take away this permission.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We should be very careful to choose the right people to come.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not just that anybody goes to an embassy and they immediately get three years and they come here, they move around India, then in two weeks or two months they leave and go back. Then the government will not like it.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And if some Americans find out that ISKCON had this special status, then someone can also pose as an ISKCON devotee and get this visa.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: So we should require that they have GBC authorization and . . . with the embassy.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. What we will do is, I think . . .

Prabhupāda: Our GBC should select. Not . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Or the GBC will communicate with India, and then India will send a letter.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Some way . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That's what I've been talking to Tamāla. (break) . . . for devotee engaging in any anti-national activity, then you can send him out. You had told me to say this earlier. So they felt reassured. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . supplied?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja has just given us four lakh rupees' loan. So I have given you a report, which he has. We have twenty-two books in print now in various . . .

Prabhupāda: "A loan payable when able."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: A loan, payable when able.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "When able." Prabhupāda . . . (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I wouldn't agree to that. I'm very strict . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We are paying back the loan in time, with interest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, he has to pay back . . .

Prabhupāda: Ātreya Ṛṣi? This kind of loan is very good.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's Gopāla's favorite loan.

Prabhupāda: You take loan—"Payable when able." (laughter)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We paid back the first BBT loan—the second three lakhs—I paid it back three months ago. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That's all right. (laughs)

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have twenty-two books in print.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In either comp . . . in various stages of production. Printing or composing or color . . . in the next two months, twenty-two books are coming out. By the end of December there will be twenty-two books given to you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you must have good godown. Otherwise books will be stolen.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At the market.

Prabhupāda: And market it will be sold at cheap rate. Then it will reduce its importance.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was happening in Calcutta many . . .

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I also got the loan for the godown. So in November we are starting construction of the BBT godown in Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That four lakhs, two lakhs was for the godown and two lakhs for book printing.

Prabhupāda: Money you'll get. There is no scarcity. Ātreya Ṛṣi will give you.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he is very rich.

Prabhupāda: Their country is very rich now.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We used to send devotees to collect from these Middle East countries.

Prabhupāda: Richest country now, Middle East. Everywhere we can make Vaikuṇṭha by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let people understand gradually.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: When they see your books, that's when they really appreciate our movement.

Prabhupāda: Who has got such substantial books? Nowhere in the world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a fact, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I also spoke to the Chinese Embassy in Delhi yesterday. I said I'd like to go to China, and I wanted to find out what the possibilities were. So they said since I have Canadian citizenship, they said I should write to the Canadian High Com . . . to the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa. I told them I'm from a publishing house that publishes books on ancient Indian culture. And I found out that they do not teach any Sanskrit in China, but they have Hindi and Urdu departments. Peking University has a department on Asian studies that teaches Hindi and Urdu.

Prabhupāda: Let us introduce in Hindi.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Hindi books. And actually, that man I spoke to on the phone, he spoke such fluent Hindi I had to ask him three times if he's Chinese or Indian. He was Chinese.

Prabhupāda: No, in Calcutta we have got many Chinese. They speak fluently.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This Chinese was from Peking, not Indian-born. And also, I was thinking we can say that Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is one of the biggest printers in the world, and we are seriously thinking of buying Chinese paper for printing. And we can buy Chinese paper if it's good, because I found out that Chinese paper is as good as Japanese paper, and it is cheaper.

Prabhupāda: No, we can print there also, in China.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That will be great, (laughing) if we print our books in China.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got paper.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's okay to try for a visa. (break)

Prabhupāda: Sleeping means weakness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sleeping means what?

Devotee: Weakness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Weakness.

Prabhupāda: No, too much sleeping means weakness.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Bhavānanda felt it was due to not sleeping at night that you were sleeping during the day. But you slept an awful lot today. But yet . . .

Prabhupāda: No, today avoid.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Today avoid. Yet you say that . . . when I asked you, "Are you feeling more vitality?" you said, "I think so." In what way are you feeling like that?

Prabhupāda: So tonight don't give me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that's all right. But what about that question I asked, Śrīla Prabhupāda? When I asked you, "Are you feeling more vitality?" you said, "I think so." In what sense are you feeling more vitality?

Prabhupāda: Anyway, tonight don't try to give me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Does it give any appetite, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Feeling of appetite?

Bhakti-caru: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I cooked some boiled rice, boiled it for a long time, and some plantain. Kachkola seddho, ota ektu debo? (Boiled green banana, shall I give that a little?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's good for stopping diarrhea. I think you should take some, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Instead of taking the medicine, take a little of this prasādam. Is that all right?

Prabhupāda: All right, I'll try to take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I've seen is that although you're passing stool more, it's not . . . you're not passing out more, too much in sense of total amount of . . . urine is less now. You're passing less urine. Stool is coming more, but urine is less.

Prabhupāda: No, that is natural.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's natural.

Prabhupāda: If you pass stool, there will be less urine.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, natural passing of stool is good instead of taking by enema. It is good sign, actually.

Bhakti-caru: Yes, it means that the bowel is moving.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. The organs are functioning properly.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Bhakti-caru: Miśri?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. "Just see," I think Prabhupāda said. The urine. It's finished now.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (whispering) Quite a bit. Looks clear.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's more than that even.

Bhakti-caru: Can I see it in the light, please? (indistinct background discussion)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One hundred cc's, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and clear. So urine is normal amount. Try to take a little bit to eat tonight, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I'll try.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. And we won't give any medicine tonight. Tomorrow morning we're giving it. Okay?

Bhakti-caru: Even the swelling is down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Swelling is down.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: (aside) You can tell about that newsletter, our conference.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara brought an article from The Statesman about the news of the conference that was held here in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Statesman carried an article.

Prabhupāda: Oh, really?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It was printed in The Statesman.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to hear it?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. (to Svarūpa Dāmodara) You can't read it? Okay. Is there a flashlight? The heading, Śrīla Prabhupāda, says: "The nonphysical view on the origin of species." Nonphysical view. "Materialists and men of faith continue to disagree over the origins of life. According to the first group, life is derived from atoms and molecules. The Russian scientist Dr. A. I. Oparin has been propagating this view since 1957." Fifty-seven or thirty-seven?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Fifty-seven

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "But the challengers demand 'really solid examples of life arising from matter.' " The challengers don't accept it, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here the challengers want some solid proof that life comes from matter. They're not willing to be duped simply by this man's statement. They want to see some real examples. "At a three-day international conference on 'Life Comes from Life' at Vṛndāvana last week at the Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed . . ." Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you want it Bhaktivedanta Institute or Bhaktivedanta Swami?

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It doesn't matter. ". . . Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the keynote. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO. Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Singh, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science, on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of the materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme by discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermodynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, Professor of Biochemistry of the All-India Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely on terms of chemical combinations. There was intricate features of life, ranging from the structures of molecules and living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics cannot account for these phenomena, and life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy. Mr. Cohen said that the proof of Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed, one into another, through many small changes or mutations. 'Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said. Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. 'In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supporting the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the present of life proves that there must be further higher-order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science.' All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life, and they also corroborate the systemic description of the nature of life given in the Bhagavad-gītā. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. A good article.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I think they gave a very full coverage.

Prabhupāda: And very scientifically presented. And Bhaktivedanta Institute is advertised.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Free of charge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It is a good article.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Jaya. Prabhupāda's mercy.

Prabhupāda: Now it will give thought that life is a different thing. It cannot be produced by material molecules. It is not possible. And Bhagavad-gītā they referred. And Bhaktivedanta Institute we have organized.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So it is good article.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When we say Bhaktivedanta, they only know Śrīla Prabhupāda, because there's only one bhakti-vedāntī, so everybody knows.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Śrīla Prabhupāda? There was a nice letter from Haridāsa in Bombay. Should I read it to you?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

(devotees chanting japa)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. He wrote to the secretary, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Haridāsa. There's a letter written. He says, "Dear Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, please accept my most humble obeisances at your feet. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gopāla Kṛṣṇa Prabhu has shown me the voucher where ISKCON Bombay owed to BBT India Rs. 70,000. When Śrīla Prabhupāda said he wanted to stay with us, I got greatly encouraged and had a desire in my heart to pay back this money to the BBT for Śrīla Prabhupāda."

Prabhupāda: Hmm? I could not follow.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: I could not follow what he said.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He said, "I couldn't follow."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says . . . he found out that the Bombay temple owed the BBT 70,000 rupees. So he says when he heard that you had decided that you wanted to live and not leave us, he got very encouraged and inspired. So he decided on his own that he wanted to pay back this money to the BBT for you. He says, "I have been encouraging all the preachers here at ISKCON Bombay to go out and collect the money to pay off this debt to the BBT. Śrīla Prabhupāda has made all this arrangement very easily because of his encouragement to us. Even devotees who have engagements where they are not likely to make a Life Member are making Life Members very easily and are collecting money. And even persons not expected to become members are now becoming members. This is all due to the desire in the hearts of the preachers here in Bombay to serve Śrīla Prabhupāda. And by the grace of Śrīla Prabhupāda, everything is coming very smoothly. This is confirmed in our hearts that without Śrīla Prabhupāda, we cannot do any single work in this movement. Śrīla Prabhupāda gives us encouragement just to kindly agree to stay with us. So yesterday, on Daśarātrī, we collected over 21,000 rupees and made ten members."

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says: "We cannot express in English what we are feeling in our hearts, but we are all very encouraged to go out and collect for Śrīla Prabhupāda and expand his Life Membership program, and we are all very thankful that Śrīla Prabhupāda has been merciful and . . ." (break)

Trivikrama: . . . by your mercy.

Prabhupāda: No. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavat . . . (SB 5.18.12). Any devotee can become. That letter, mayor's letter also, it carries weight. What is his name?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ganatra? That telegram he sent?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. And the Statesman report, it is very, very . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very encouraging. This Haridāsa is transformed. You said that it was due to the mercy of a Vaiṣṇava, Girirāja.

Prabhupāda: Hmm, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Remember how you said that?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava ṭhākur tomār kukkura.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (aside) Girirāja gave him his association . . .

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava. Chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava sevā, nistār pāyeche . . . (Prema-bhakti-candrikā). Vaiṣṇava's kṛpā. Vaiṣṇava is already merciful. Vaiṣṇava means merciful. Kṛpā-sindhu, ocean of mercy. That is Vaiṣṇava.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like last night, Dr. Pathak, the Dean of the College of Veterinary, said Śrīla Prabhupāda is a touchstone, can transform everybody.

Pañca-draviḍa: This change with Haridāsa is a miracle.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Bombay is the most rich city in India. And now they are willing to help us. So there will be no scarcity of money. Wherever you'll go, you'll get it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that building, that project, is so nice, you don't have to go anywhere. They come to you and give money.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. (laughs) That's Prabhupāda's mercy.

Pañca-draviḍa: Your project too, personal project.

Prabhupāda: So when it is going . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When is it going to open?

Prabhupāda: That building?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What? What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: That, another building or godown?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want to know when the godown is beginning to be built?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: November. Next, this coming month.

Pañca-draviḍa: It is a long way from this grass hut we used to live in, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Gradually the whole world will be sympathetic. Everyone will recognize that they are doing real service.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's already so famous in Bombay. Everybody knows, all the taxi drivers. You say: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Land, Juhu," everybody knows.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? We'll sit you up now for you to take a little bit of prasādam. All right?

Prabhupāda: I think you have to cleanse my . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. First we'll cleanse, then we'll sit Prabhupāda up. Okay. (break) For one thing, just like this prasādam that Bhakti-caru Mahārāja prepared is good for stopping . . . you know, it's against passing stool. It will make a binding effect. That's why I thought you might appreciate it. Bhakti-caru made it especially because of that. It's like medicine. But nice-tasting medicine. You could try.

Prabhupāda: Yes, I can try.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. You should do it just to please us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Upendra: You can take the shoulders and . . . (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many people were in the temple tonight. The kīrtana party that has come from Māyāpur, they were chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa very sweetly, and the whole temple room was filled with people sitting, listening and waiting for the ārati. Very nice program. Think you'll try to take a little now, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Bhakti-caru can feed you.

Bhakti-caru: Ektu boro kore ha karun. (Open your mouth a little wide please.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How about juice? (pause) You'll sit up for a little while? Can I scratch your back?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Would you like Jayādvaita and Pradyumna to come again?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. If you can make some resting place, then I can sit down more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mean with pillows in the back?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Shall we do just now? Okay.

Bharadvāja: There's more pillows coming for Śrīla Prabhupāda. (backgound discussion among devotees about getting pillows)

Prabhupāda: It is giving pain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We're just getting some round pillows from upstairs. That will be very good. They'll be here in a minute, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda? If you want, you can lean back. I'm holding the pillows in the back. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . reported.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can take it home with you. Bring it back tomorrow.

Prabhupāda: You purchase few copies more. It is very important.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. This is a photocopy. I can get photocopies made. That will be easier probably than getting back issue. And cheaper too.

Prabhupāda: Padho isko. (Read this.)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda wants you to read it.

Hari Prasad: "The nonphysical view on the origin of the species . . ." (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Our . . . our O.B.L. Kapoor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your Godbrother.

Hari Prasad: What does he say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says life comes from atoms and molecules, Dr. Kapoor. This is his conclusion after all these years reading Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy. He said like that in the conference.

Hari Prasad: He said?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right, Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, something like that, very vague. Complete misunderstanding.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was his point in the conference?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was saying there is nothing like table. He was sitting on a table. So said it is just an imagination. There's nothing like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Says it's illusion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he said it's illusion.

Prabhupāda: But he quotes from the Ramakrishna.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In his book that he wrote, Dr. Kapoor quoted the great authority Ramakrishna. (laughter)

Jayādvaita: (reading article) "The Russian scientist Dr. A. I. Oparin has been propagating this view since 1957, but his challengers demand 'really solid examples of life arising from matter.' At a three-day international conference on 'Life Comes from Life' at Vṛndāvana last week at the Bhaktivedanta Institute, it was stressed that life was independent of matter and dependent on higher principles lying beyond the present limitations of physics and chemistry. The assumption that life itself was nonphysical was the keynote. The conference was opened by Dr. Prem Kripal, former president of the executive board of UNESCO. Three lectures were delivered by Dr. Thoudam D. Singh, director of the Institute; Mr. Robert Cohen, a geologist from the USA; and Dr. Michael Marchetti, a theoretical chemist and student of the philosophy of science, on the fundamental nature of life and matter, new findings in paleontology and their effect on the theory of evolution, and the social consequences of a materialistic view of life. The philosophical foundations of life was the theme of a discourse by Dr. S. R. Bhatt, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Delhi University. Dr. Richard Thompson, a mathematician from Cornell University, and Mr. David Webb from England dealt with the application of information theory to the theory of evolution, thermodynamics and the origin of life. The limitations of science were discussed by Dr. A. Ramaya, Professor of Biochemistry at the All-India Institute of Medical Science. Dr. Singh opposed the theory that life could be understood solely in terms of chemical combinations. There were intricate features of life, ranging from the structure of molecules in living cells to the subtle ones of human personality. The simple push-pull laws of chemistry and physics 'cannot account for these phenomena,' and 'life and matter are understood as two distinct kinds of energy.' Mr. Cohen said that 'Proof of the Darwinian theory of evolution must depend in the end on the fossil record. Darwin's theory required that all the different species of life were gradually transformed, one into another, through many small changes, mutations. Yet prominent paleontologists such as Eldridge and Gould are now maintaining that the fossil record only supports the view that species remain static in form and that changes between them, if they do really occur at all, can only occur by abrupt leaps. An examination of possible causes for such leaps shows that they could only be accounted for by the action of a higher intelligence,' he said. Dr. Thompson dealt with the mathematical analysis of the laws of nature studied in modern chemistry and physics. In the light of the modern theory of information, these laws can be shown to be unable to account for the highly complex and unique structures of living organisms. It can also be shown that the quantum-mechanical laws suffer from serious shortcomings, because they cannot account for the nature of any conscious observer. Both of these lines of evidence supported the view that the living being is a nonphysical entity and that the behavior of matter when in the presence of life proves that there must be further higher-order laws and principles as yet unknown to modern science. All of these conclusions were in agreement with the observed phenomena of life, and they also corroborate the systematic description of the nature of life given in Bhagavad-gītā. There was a general agreement among the participants of the conference that this approach to understanding the nature of life provided a viable alternative to the materialistic view of modern science."

Prabhupāda: How do you like article?

Bhagatjī: Bahut badiya. (Very good.)

Prabhupāda: Bhaktivedanta Institute is doing something scientifically to understand God consciousness. That is proof. And it is well advertised. And we shall go on proceeding like that more and more. So many scientists, foreign and local, they participated, discussed. It is not ordinary thing. Hmm?

Bhagatjī: Jaya.

Prabhupāda: The importance of Bhaktivedanta Institute is there, not that theory molecule. "Come on," we are challenging. "Discuss like scientist, not like sentimentalists."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It seems like we should . . . next time we have a conference here, it should be done in the proper hall.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we have got enough place.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people were thinking that Vṛndāvana is not a good place for building that hall, but . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there is no immediate necessity. We have got already nice building.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have no hall in that building. There's no . . . the place where they held the meeting last time is now going to become the restaurant.

Prabhupāda: Let it become.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there won't be any place to have any future meetings. There's no big room.

Prabhupāda: That we shall have in . . . conveniently, not immediately. Immediately there is Bombay.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Hum bombay mein . . . (indistinct) . . . (We in Bombay . . . (indistinct) . . .)

Indian Man: Ban jayega sahab . . . (indistinct) . . . koi dikat nahi hai. (Will be made . . . (indistinct) . . . there is no problem.)

Prabhupāda: Bombay mein, kahi bhi hum log jaatei hai . . . (indistinct) . . . ek din mein ekis hazaar rupiya uthaiya. Ek din mein. Sab . . . (indistinct) . . . se pehle And the mayor, ex-mayor, has given telegram. Where is that telegram? (In Bombay, whenever we go . . . (indistinct) . . . in one day we gathered twenty-one thousand rupees. In one day. Everyone . . . (indistinct) . . . before. And the mayor, an ex-mayor, has given a telegram. Where is that telegram?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is a telegram . . . it says: "Pray God, Kṛṣṇa, to give you long life to spread Indian culture in every nook and corner of the universe. Signed Rajiv K. Ganatra, ex-mayor of Bombay." He's very convinced, Śrīla Prabhupāda, about Your Divine Grace and this Movement, because he traveled around the world and stayed as a guest at our temples, and he was amazed to see how this Indian culture had actually been transplanted and taken root in all of these countries all over the world. He could not believe it. He was so amazed and impressed. He said that he's seen genuinely that this Indian culture has been taken up in true spirit.

Hari Prasad: This is the first Movement that has started mūrti-pūjā throughout the world.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hari Prasad-jī said that . . .

Hari Prasad: No, Prabhupāda, this was the first mission which had started . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari Prasad: . . . mūrti-pūjā throughout the world.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari Prasad: They've gone, preached, come back, but they have created devotee in every place in the world.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The other missions that went, simply they left . . . it was like the Vedānta Society, all dry.

Prabhupāda: "Brahman, Brahman."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) Prabhupāda said: "Brahman, Brahman."

Pañca-draviḍa: Simply drew zeroes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now Prabhupāda's books are reaching almost every home all over the world, in all languages.

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta: māyāvādī haya kṛṣṇe aparādhī. While discussing with Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī . . . "Caitanya," "Brahman," that's . . . nothing like Kṛṣṇa. Here they are doing, this Akhandananda, and what is his name? Another . . .?

Hari Prasad: Tirupati.

Prabhupāda: "Brahman, Brahman." When they cannot explain anything—"Brahman," bās, finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Pradyumna Prabhu is here. Would you like to hear some verse?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hari-prasāda is taking leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to return to Hyderabad.

Prabhupāda: Do char din raho. (Stay for two to four days.)

Hari Prasad: Fir hazir hunga. Apko Swamiji Maharaj, chikitsa ke liye Bombay mein vaidya hai. Agar apki aagya ho to Baidyanathji bol kar hai. Aur abhi to yaha sardi bhi ho jayegi pandrah bees din ke baad, maheina bhar ke baad. (I will come back. For you Swami Mahārāja in Bombay there is an Ayurvedic doctor, If you give permission, he is called Baidyanatha. Moreover it will get cold here in fifteen to twenty days, within a month.)

Prabhupāda: Ye jo Bombay . . . (indistinct) . . . hai. (This Bombay . . . (indistinct) . . . is.)

Hari Prasad: Ji ha, Bombay to mausam acha nahi rahega. Jaha dry climate ho, kahi bhi. Agar waha ka aap agya de, svikriti de to . . . (Yes, the weather in Bombay will not be good. Wherever there is dry climate. If you give permission, if acceptance is there . . .)

Prabhupāda: Kaha? (Where?)

Hari Prasad: Apne Hyderabad mein mahina bhar acha rahega, pandahra bees din baad se. (In our Hyderabad, it will be good for a month, after fifteen to twenty days.)

Hari Prasad: It was started . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How you will get Prabhupāda there? What is the conveyance?

Hari Prasad: Conveyance, there is train.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the problem.

Hari Prasad:. No, air-conditioned train, at this time you can't travel.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now he's a little weak.

Hari Prasad: No, this all cough and all these things could be . . . in dry climate it can be . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But unless he's a little stronger, to travel . . .

Hari Prasad: Yes, little strength, if he goes. That vaidya, kavirāja, can come from Bombay. He had treated my father-in-law for about four-five years.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is that?

Hari Prasad: He is Bhayernathji, Pandit Bhayernath. He is friend of . . . (indistinct) . . . Swami. He's a very good Āyurvedic.

Śatadhanya: Set it up. (break)

Prabhupāda: Svarūpa Dāmodara?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Stop the medicine.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda suggests that he stops the medicine for one day, so . . .

Śatadhanya: See the effect.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: And I'm also going to Delhi in the morning, so Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I agree with your suggestion, Śrīla Prabhupāda. I think it's a good idea to stop the medicine for a day and to consult the kavirāja, and also to try to drink something else besides only fruit juice. I think the medicine should be stopped for a day. It's not . . . Haṁsadūta, I was talking with him. He said that he sometimes would do these fruit juice diets. In America this is something that's done a lot of times. He said when he would take this fruit juice diet, he said after . . . he said there's no question of passing stool. He said when you take fruit juice diets you don't pass stool, because there's nothing . . . he says eventually you just pass urine. So the fact that Prabhupāda is passing stool is very unnatural, at least for taking fruit juice. He's not eating anything, so how can he pass stool four times? What is the stool coming from if he's not eating?

Prabhupāda: Whatever little blood is there.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whatever little blood is there.

Bhavānanda: I think it's a mistake, Śrīla Prabhupāda, to take this strong medicine without having the kavirāja actually come and diagnose himself and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śatadhanya: Actually, the kavirāja said to me that he never prescribes medicine without first seeing the patient.

Prabhupāda: So bring him. And stop medicine.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I think that's the right idea. This is not right, passing stool like this. This passing stool so many times is not right. It means that the medicine is not taking properly.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Some reaction is happening.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. Definitely it's a reaction.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Five times. That's a lot.

Prabhupāda: Local kavirāja also said it will be very strong now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: You can consult a local kavirāja? (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . unless one is local.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that means Bonamali. First of all let us see this man, if he can come or what he says. Otherwise we may call Bonamali.

Prabhupāda: And stick to him. Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we should stick to somebody. We have to have a little faith in somebody. Accepting and rejecting is not so good. To reject so many different times. Bonamali won't do any harm. Whether how much good, that's another matter. He's not bad.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Sincere also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's sincere. I don't think he cheated Śrīla Prabhupāda. I still don't think so. (break) When Svarūpa Dāmodara goes, he can take one of the pills which Bonamali made and show it to this kavirāja.

Prabhupāda: That is impossible.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Impossible, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: No, seeing the pill, what to see?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He may be able to recognize it as one of the types of makara-dhvaja. The main point is that Bonamali said it's makara-dhvaja. So by showing, he may be able to recognize, "Yes, this appears to be." At least we can get his opinion. Because that other kavirāja, that Rāmānujī, threw some doubt on Bonamali's medicine saying: "This is not makara-dhvaja." So we're having some doubt about it and about Bonamali. If by seeing, this man would say, "Yes, this is one of the ways it's made. It does appear like this," then that would restore . . .

Prabhupāda: No, he is coming. If he is coming, he can say here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But he may not come. He may . . . Svarūpa Dāmodara may just get his opinion. So in case he does not come, by taking one of the pills there's nothing lost. We can get his opinion.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, I can take a sample.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Where is the harm?

Trivikrama: What about the vegetable juice in preference to the fruit juice?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean the real thing is that Prabhupāda is passing urine, and he is passing stool. So there's . . . where is the harm for taking vegetable juice? The main thing is that Prabhupāda has to swallow it. If he can swallow it, it's being digested to some extent, because the urine is coming and stool is passing.

Prabhupāda: When stool comes, urine does not come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. No, there's something definitely . . . something is amiss, that instead of coming out as urine, it comes out as stool. (break)

Bhavānanda: But you did say Kṛṣṇa advised you through this dream to take that medicine.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Bhavānanda: You said that Kṛṣṇa directed you through that dream to take that makara-dhvaja medicine. So there are six different types of makara-dhvaja.

Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa directed—Rāmānuja Vaiṣṇava.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I got a . . . Gopāla Kṛṣṇa told me that Jayapatākā Mahārāja had called him and said that they have arranged for one Rāmānuja kavirāja there in Bengal side, and everything was ready if you can come there.

Trivikrama: Can you bring him here?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. He's not going to come.

Bhavānanda: They have their medicines and everything there.

Prabhupāda: He has?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's arranged for Rāmānuja kavirāja, Jayapatākā Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Bengal side, Calcutta side, Māyāpur. Māyāpur, Calcutta, but he's there.

Bhavānanda: He wears Rāmānuja tilaka, he's got good recommendation from L. M. Bangor.

Trivikrama: But how can Prabhupāda travel?

Devotee: But Prabhupāda cannot travel, because any movement will disturb his kidney.

Prabhupāda: He cannot come?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it will be the same as the man from Delhi. He can't come and stay here and give up his practice. I mean, he stays in Calcutta, so . . . he won't be able to simply come and then . . . he'll leave, and then he won't be able to consult. If the idea is that the man has to be here every day . . .

Prabhupāda: No. If the Rāmānujī kavirāja gives makara-dhvaja, that is the last. If he . . .

Bhavānanda: He would only have to come once, you mean, and prescribe makara-dhvaja.

Prabhupāda: No . . . (break) . . . said there is a good kavirāja?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't know who it is that approved this one, but according to Gopāla, Jayapatākā says that he's arranged one Rāmānujī kavirāja.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhavānanda: Calcutta.

Prabhupāda: Why not consult him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, we'd have to go there.

Prabhupāda: Go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean the point is you would have to go there. See, they want to see you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Actually, this is not the . . . you know, generally a kavirāja wants to see the person that he's giving the medicine to, so that he can know . . .

Prabhupāda: So if he agrees to take up the case, I'll go.

Bhavānanda: He'll take up the case. That there's no doubt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, but will he come every day to Māyāpur or stay in Māyāpur? That is the question.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: First of all, if he can come at least for a few days here, if it is possible, and if he examines, then, if we make the next move, I think that will be wiser.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If somebody goes and brings him, then he decides. Then we shall go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Svarūpa Dāmodara, you could call direct to Calcutta and talk with Adri-dhāraṇa, who has contacted him, and let him discuss and see if he can bring him here. First of all, he should ask whether the man is willing. We can fly him here to Delhi and bring him here. I'm sure he'll agree to that. But it should be . . . he should be here.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I can call from Delhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hmm. You could call Adri-dhāraṇa. He's the one who found the man. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . bring one Rāmānuja. He has the makara-dhvaja. So if . . . Bhavānanda has suggested, somebody very responsible go and bring him. And then, if we can, we shall go there together. Hmm?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: In the meantime, all medicine stopped. Hmm?

Bhavānanda: There's no loss in stopping the medicine at this point, because this medicine is not improving your condition.

Prabhupāda: No.

Bhavānanda: We want some positive improvement.

Prabhupāda: If in the meantime I die without medicine, so I am dying. What is wrong? The parikramā may go on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about eating or taking liquids?

Prabhupāda: Liquid, from practical suggestion, I'll take little vegetable juice, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And fruit juice also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bhavānanda: No loss in taking fruit juice. When you were not taking the medicine a few days back, you were taking fruit juice every day and not passing stool. When you were in Delhi and Prabhupāda was taking fruit juice every day, he was not passing stool. So there's no loss. We can take vegetable juice, fruit juice, vegetable broth. (break)

Prabhupāda: . . . reacting adversely. That is proved. Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it seems so.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it two days that we started this medicine?

Prabhupāda: And jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu (Hari Hari Biphale 1). It is acting adversely. If still I take, then, knowingly . . .

Trivikrama: Drinking poison.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. That is . . .

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we shouldn't consult with this kavirāja anyway? Because this is his medicine.

Prabhupāda: No, consulting . . . when we want direct treatment, how you can consult him?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: We can at least tell the report. We can at least inform him that after taking this medicine we have such-and-such symptoms, so . . .

Bhavānanda: Still, that's fourth-hand information. And he's not a Rāmānuja-sampradāya. The only reason we were looking . . . we were looking for makara-dhvaja . . . (end)