General Lecture -- (location & date unknown)
Prabhupāda: There also it is stated, what is the meaning of religion. First of all, in the Fourth Chapter the Lord says that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām BG 4.8 , dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham BG 4.8 . These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that "Whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principles, then I descend or incarnate; I come." Yuge yuge sambhavāmi, ātma-māyayā. Ātma-māyayā. He is not forced to come here. This very word is used, ātma-māyayā. As we are forced to come here by our destiny, karma, adṛṣṭa, which we cannot see We have got different bodies in this assembly-men, women, different features, different mentality. Why? According to different karma in the past.
So karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor deha upapattaye SB 3.31.1 . We act, and the result of the action is just by the superior authority, daiva-netreṇa. And then, according to that result, we accept a certain type of body. So there are many discussions about this karmavāda. But these are Vedic conclusions, according to karma. So this human form of life... I was speaking of the dharma. The dharma... Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, says that "I come down, I descend, I appear, for the reason to establish, reestablish"—not establish, reestablish—"to reestablish the principle of religion," yadā yadā hi, "whenever there is discrepancies."
Just like whenever there is misgovernment in the political world, there is some revolution; there is some change. People revolt against the administration that "We don't want this sort of government." As this is natural, similarly, whenever there is discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principle—means the order, or the laws given by God—at that time God Himself comes or His representative comes to reestablish the religious principles according to the climate, country, people. That is going on, not only in the human society, but also in the animal society, bird society. That we understand from the Vedas.
So then what is religion? The religion is, as I have told you that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam SB 6.3.19 , the order of the Lord, God. And what is that order? This is plainly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru SB 6.3.19 . Simply be Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Mana means consciousness. So "You be always Kṛṣṇa conscious." Bhava mad-bhaktaḥ: "Become My devotee." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī: "And worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru: "You namaskuru. " You have to submit yourself somewhere. That is our nature. Nobody can say, "No. I don't submit to anyone." That is not possible. You have to submit. That is your position. Whatever you may be, you have to submit. So Kṛṣṇa says, māṁ namaskuru: "Submit unto Me." Then what is the result? Mām evaiṣyasi: "Then you come back to Me," asaṁśayaḥ, "without any doubt." And in the last verse also, Kṛṣṇa concludes Bhagavad-gītā that "My dear Arjuna, I have spoken to you so many things— karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, bhakti-yoga —but you are My very dear friend, so I will give you the secret of success," sarva-guhyatamam, "most confidential part of My instruction." What is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mam ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja: SB 6.3.19 "Give up everything. You simply surrender unto Me. That's all." Therefore, Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, and dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: SB 6.3.19 "Dharma means the laws given by God." Now, what is this law? He says that "Don't manufacture religion. Even if you have manufactured, give it up." Sarva-dharmān parityajya. This sarva-dharmān includes all religious principles.
The human society has manufactured in Hindu society, Muslim society or Christian society, and there are so many... Buddha society... So, but Bhagavad-gītā says that "You can give up sarva-dharmān, all sorts of religious principles. You simply surrender unto Me." This is the position. Kṛṣṇa said in the beginning that "I come here to reestablish the religious principle." And what is that religious principle? To surrender unto Him. To surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. This is real religious principle. And in the Naimiṣāraṇya, when this Sūta Gosvāmī was asked what is the best religious principle, so, he replied, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje: SB 1.2.6 "It doesn't matter what is that religion. Any religion is first-class religion provided it gives you opportunity to develop your dormant love of God. That's all." You follow any religion; it doesn't matter. Either you become a Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, or so many other religions there are, but the test is that whether your religious principle is first class or third class or second class, the test will be whether you have developed your dormant love of God. That's all. If you are lacking in that, that you have not..., instead of developing your dormant love of God, you are developing your love for so many other things...
Caitanya Mahāprabhu has instructed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that just like when you seed some plants, there are..., some other plants also grow. So the gardener takes out the unnecessary plants in order to give impetus to the real plant to grow. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, following the principle that dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam SB 6.3.19 , that dharma means, religion means, the law enacted by the Lord... This is the law, that "You surrender unto Me." Kṛṣṇa says. Now, if you say that Kṛṣṇa is Indian God or Hindu God, oh, Kṛṣṇa, of course, does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ: SB 6.3.19 "In any form of life, all the living entities..." It doesn't matter, even a human being or in the animal kingdom or lower than human beings, lower than animals, birds, beast, reptiles, aquatics. There are 8,400,000 species of life. Kṛṣṇa claims, sarva-yonisu: "All species of life, they are My sons." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "I am their father, supreme father."
So do not misunderstand that Kṛṣṇa is Hindu God or Indian. You just try to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, this word, suggests... Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So when Kṛṣṇa was personally present on this planet... You know. Those who have read Kṛṣṇa literature, I think most of you know Bhagavad-gītā, such a nice philosophical presentation. Oh, there is no comparison in the world. That's a fact. Everyone—it doesn't matter if he is a scholar or if he is a serious student of religious principle or philosophy—he studies Bhagavad-gītā very seriously, in all countries. There are many varied editions of Bhagavad-gītā, and actually, the instruction is so high that it cannot be instructed by anyone else except the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Besides that, Kṛṣṇa proved Himself from His very childhood. When He was a small child on the lap of His mother, beginning from that, up to the time of His disappearance from this world, oh, He played everything just like God. There is no comparison. He... Those who have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they are acquainted with the activities of Kṛṣṇa. I am speaking this for people who are outside the scope of Vedic religion. Those who are in the Vedic religion, all of them, they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There is no doubt about it. So far our Vedic religion is concerned, the propounder of the Vedic religions in India still existing, still continuing, the ācāryas, just like Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Nimbārka, these ācāryas... The followers, the whole Hindu community or the whole Indian nation, they are followers of these ācāryas. Jarāsandha: "One must worship the principle of ācārya." Ācāryavān puruṣo veda: "One who has accepted ācārya, he knows what is knowledge." Ācāryavan puruso veda. In this way all the ācāryas, they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So far the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas are concerned, namely, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, they would naturally, because they are Vaiṣṇavas...
Just like we. We belong to Madhvācārya. Our Gauḍīya-sampradāya, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's sampradāya, they belong to the Madhvācārya disciplic succession. Lord Caitanya's spiritual master was Īśvara Purī, and he was disciple of Mādhavendra Purī, and this Mādhavendra Purī was in the disciplic succession of Madhvācārya. Therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Madhvācārya. And this Madhvācārya-sampradāya is coming from Brahma. Therefore this sampradāya, disciplic succession, is known as Brahma-Madhva-Gauḍīya-sampradāya.
So naturally we accept Kṛṣṇa on the basis of Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is natural. But, everyone, of course, has to accept Bhagavad-gītā and Vedānta-sūtra if he, I mean to say, presents himself as Vedic or Hindu. Hindu is the name, the modern name. Actually the Vedic name is the original name, or varṇāśrama-dharma. That is the original name. So, apart from Vaiṣṇavas, even Śaṅkarācārya, who is impersonalist, who is Brahmavadi, he also accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Those who have read Śaṅkarācārya's commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā, they must have seen it in the very beginning: sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. He begins his commentary, nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ avyaktat: "Nārāyaṇa is beyond this material creation." And then he says, "That Nārāyaṇa is svayaṁ bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa. Sa bhagavān svayaṁ kṛṣṇaḥ. And he has specifically mentioned that "He has appeared as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva." Beside that, he has written many songs and prayers about Kṛṣṇa. And at the last stage of his life he has written a very nice poem,
- bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mūḍha mate
- prāpte sannihite khalu marane na hi na hi rakṣati dukṛn-karaṇe
Because the Māyāvādī philosophers, they interpret Vedic mantras by grammatical jugglery, therefore Śaṅkarācārya has warned that "Your grammatical jugglery, this dukṛn-pratyaya, karaṇe, will not save you." Mūḍha-mate: "You foolish person, you kindly take shelter of Govinda." Bhaja govinda. So this is the verdict of all ācāryas. So our point is that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is nothing like manufactured religious principle. No. It is authorized. There is great background, all these, supported by all the ācāryas and summarized by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And we have got immense literature to support this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But anyone who is reasonable, they will accept this philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness as very simple. And it is actually very simple, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja BG 18.66 , to surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. And if you cannot surrender immediately, then... These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given you the easiest process, that you simply chant Kṛṣṇa's name, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Then everything automatically will develop.
How it will develop, that we began explaining yesterday, this Sūta Gosvāmī's instruction. He says, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ SB 1.2.17 . If you simply hear about Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa You can hear about Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. Kṛṣṇa has got so many activities. The whole Mahābhārata, the whole Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, all the Purāṇas, and especially Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, is full of Kṛṣṇa's activities. So it is very relishing also. Just like we try to read stories and fiction ordinarily—people take pleasure in it—similarly, if you simply read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you will relish that fiction reading; at the same time, you will be transcendentally realized. The Parīkṣit Mahārāja, when he was hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he said that nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt SB 1.2.17 . He admitted that "This kṛṣṇa-katha, narrations about Kṛṣṇa, about Kṛṣṇa's activities, it is relished, it is discussed, by nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ SB 1.2.17 . Nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ means liberated person. Nivṛtti means finished, and tṛṣṇa, tṛṣṇa, hankering.
So long you are in the material existence of life, there is hankering and lamenting because this world is being conducted by the two energies... Now, one energy, material energy, threefold qualities, sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa... Generally it is being conducted by the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. Rajas-tamo-bhava. So Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says, this Sūta Gosvāmī, that srnvatam sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ SB 1.2.17 . If you simply hear the activities of Kṛṣṇa, which is confirmed by Parīkṣit Mahārāja, that kṛṣṇa-kathā is relished by persons, nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ, who has transcended the three qualitative action and reaction of this material nature... Tṛṣṇa. Everyone who are materially situated, he has got hankering: "I shall become this great man," "I shall become this big businessman," "I shall become such politician," "I shall become such and such." Always, everyone is struggling. But this kṛṣṇa-kathā is relished by them who are above this hankering. And that is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na socati na kāṅkṣati SB 1.2.17 . This kāṅkṣa, this tṛṣṇa, the same thing... Kāṅkṣa means hankering. In the ordinary position we are hankering and lamenting, hankering to possess something, and if, somehow or other, that possession is lost, then you are lamenting, again hankering. These two features of the material life. So brahma-bhūtaḥ... Brahma-bhūtaḥ means one who is above these two principles, hankering and lamenting. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na socati na kāṅkṣati SB 1.2.17 . If you become above these 8 qualities, material qualities, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ, ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am Brahman."
This is self-realization. So nivṛtta-tarṣaiḥ means one who has realized his self. So Parīkṣit Mahārāja, also confirming that "This kṛṣṇa-kathā, these activities of Kṛṣṇa can be relished by persons who have are transcended this position of hankering and lamenting..." Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt. They can actually understand. But what about the common man? The common man, he has also said, bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. If common men simply hear, then it will be very pleasing to their ears and to their heart. Chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt. They'll be pleased simply by hearing. Generally, people therefore take to Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā. But one should not go so swiftly to the rasa-līlā because they will misunderstand. But there are so many other līlās of Kṛṣṇa. So you hear them. That is our program. We are giving chance to the people in general to hear about Kṛṣṇa. And this is our mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is this, that āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra sarva deśa: "You just become spiritual master under My order." What is that order? That also He says, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa-upadeśa CC Madhya 7.128 .' That's all. "You simply try to explain the kṛṣṇa-kathā. " Kṛṣṇa-kathā means kathā, the words, given by Kṛṣṇa—that is Bhagavad-gītā, kathā— or kathā about Kṛṣṇa. That is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So these two messages you distribute to the whole world. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order.
So you may question, "What you are? What is your position?" Our... My position is that, that under the supreme order of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in disciplic succession, I am just trying to preach this kṛṣṇa-kathā. That's all. I am not manufacturing anything. Don't think that I have manufactured something new, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. No. That is not my business. My business is just like the peon. The orderly. The message from Caitanya Mahāprabhu as it is, I am delivering. That's all. And it is being effected because I am not adulterating in the kṛṣṇa-kathā. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja; BG 18.66 I also say the same thing, that "You become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." So there is no doubt that I am really representing the interests of Kṛṣṇa because I am not adulterating. I am not misinterpreting the words of Kṛṣṇa. And it is being effective.
You can see that before me many Indians came in this Western world. They also preached about this Kṛṣṇa message or Bhagavad-gītā. Great scholars came. But you have to admit that before this, the Westerners never accepted this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they could not deliver as it is. Now they are accepting. And there is immense potency. I have studied. There is immense potency of accepting. They are actually looking after this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the Western people. The other day I was talking with our Indian high commissioner. He also happens to be very nice, learned man. He said that "Swamiji, yes, they are looking after, like this." So, so far material advancement is concerned, they have seen enough of it. Therefore, these youngsters, they are no more interested in the material advancement. They have tasted it.
The next stage is, as it is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, atha ataḥ brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā . This is the stage of their inquiry about Brahman. And that Brahman, Parabrahman, as it is confirmed by Arjuna when he understood Kṛṣṇa... First of all he took Him as his friend, but after explanation of Bhagavad-gītā, in the Tenth Chapter you will see, he is accepting, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān BG 10.12 . So this brahma-jijñāsa, inquiry, is there. And kṛṣṇa-kathā is here. So everyone should join this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Simply he has to distribute this knowledge of kṛṣṇa-kathā as ordered by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Then the result will be that, as it is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, spoken by Sūta Gosvāmī, that śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ BG 10.12 . Kṛṣṇa-kathā is so nice that even one does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, simply if he hears the vibration of this holy chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa, he will be pious man. He will be pious man—simply by hearing. It has got It is so effective. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam BG 10.12 . Practically you are seeing. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam this is also confirmed, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is within you also, Paramātmā. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati BG 10.12 . So He is within you. As soon as He understands that you are very serious about Him, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then He will help you. And śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi.
Now, this abhadrāṇi, abhadra, the exact translation is "misbehavior," abhadra, "ungentlemanliness." Is that exact translation? If it is not, you can correct me. Abhadra, the Sanskrit word... Those who are Indians, they know this word, bhadra and abhadra. Bhadra, means noble and abhadra means ignoble. So hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi. These words of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, each word is so valuable that if you scrutinizingly abhadrāṇi, ignoble. What is that ignoble within our heart? That ignoble thing is claiming proprietorship on the property of God. That is the instruction in the Īśopaniṣad. Every one of us claiming, unceremoniously, proprietorship on other's property This is the business of the whole material world.
This nationality which is claimed so much valuable in the modern age, difference based on nationality, to test on this point, abhadrāṇi, this is most ignoble. We are eulogizing nationality so much, but actually, if you study these principles of nationality, it is most ignoble. Why? Because Īśopaniṣad says, Veda, that īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: (ISO mantra 1) "Everything belongs to God." How you are claiming that "It is our" or "It is mine"? Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (ISO mantra 1) . This is illusion. What is not yours, you are claiming, "It is mine." Just like this body. This is also not mine. The nature has given me this body according to my karma. Just like the landlord has given me this house to live, but it is not my house. This is a fact. So if I live in this house and later on claim, "Oh, this is my house," the whole trouble begins. Similarly, everything which we are utilizing for our comforts, for our livelihood, everything is given by God. This body is given by God, the maintenance also given by God. You are maintaining this body by eating fruits, flowers, grains, or even meat. But who is supplying? You cannot create all these things in your machine-made factories. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He is supplying. This is God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
So because we are in different consciousness, therefore everything is ignoble in our heart. So śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi SB 1.2.17 . These abhadra, these ignoble thoughts, claiming something which does not belong to me, is the most ignoble. But if you gradually give your attention in the matter of hearing kṛṣṇa-kathā, then Kṛṣṇa will help you how to wash off these ignoble things within your heart. Hṛdy antaḥ-sthaḥ. He is within your heart. When you are serious, then He will wash off all these ignoble things from your heart. Hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi. In this way, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement can help the human society in all respect to become purified and thus live in peace and prosperity, we can have all this information from this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. And we shall request you that you come and join with us and discuss with us. If there is any doubt, just clear it up and take up this movement seriously to make the human society happy and prosperous. Thank you very much.
Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (offer obeisances—break)
Guest (Indian man): If I am not mistaken, I think I heard that Kṛṣṇa reestablished religion, reestablished. Now who established before Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: When Kṛṣṇa was born, who was born before Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never born.
Guest: Kṛṣṇa was not born?
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest: Oh, that satisfies me very much. I was taught that...(indistinct)
Prabhupāda: It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, ajo 'pi. Ajo 'pi: "I am never..." You are also not born, every one of us. Because we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, spirit soul, so nobody is born. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "Nobody takes birth; nobody dies." Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "At any time." These things are there. And Kṛṣṇa, about Himself, He says, ajo 'pi: "Although I am unborn." Ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san: "Although I am unborn." So Kṛṣṇa is never born. Just like in the morning there is sunrise. If you say the sun is born, that is mistake. Sun is seen. He is not born.
Guest: Yes, I understand. This Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Before Caitanya was who, Kṛṣṇa or anyone in between?
Prabhupāda: Before Caitanya? In the Kali-yuga... Kṛṣṇa was in the Dvāpara-yuga, and Caitanya was in the Kali-yuga.
Guest: So between Caitanya and Kṛṣṇa there was not anybody. And before Kṛṣṇa there was no one.
Prabhupāda: No, there were others also, before Kṛṣṇa.
Guest: Before Kṛṣṇa, who was?
Prabhupāda: Before Kṛṣṇa there was Lord Rāmacandra. Yes.
Guest: So Kṛṣṇa took the incarnation of Lord Rāmacandra.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He appears sometimes as Lord Rāmacandra, or as Lord Caitanya, or sometimes others, like that.
Guest: But with the name of Kṛṣṇa, He appeared after Rāmacandra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Guest: And I heard you also saying that Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes, Madhva. Madhvācārya sampradāya, yes.
Guest: He was disciple of. Now, was he born after Kṛṣṇa or...
Prabhupāda: No, he was born before... Who? Madhvācārya, you mean to say? He was born long, long before Lord Caitanya, after Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa... Kṛṣṇa appeared on this planet five thousand years ago. Madhvācārya appeared about one thousand years.
Guest: One thousand years before. That means he appeared after Vyāsa, Śrī Vyāsa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vyāsa was contemporary to Kṛṣṇa. Vyāsa.
Guest: And Caitanya was disciple of Madhvan-dāsa-pura.
Prabhupāda: Madhva... Not Madhvācārya directly. By his disciplic succession.
Guest: Yes. But Madhva was not a incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. A ācārya does not require to become incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. Not always all the ācāryas are incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. No. They are devotees. They are devotees.
Guest: Yes. That means Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: But was a disciple of someone who was not incarnation.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is possible. (Hindi) You were inquiring about Īśvara Purī, who was direct spiritual master of Lord Caitanya?
Guest: No. I thought because Lord Caitanya was incarnation of Kṛṣṇa... [break]
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: So he would not have a guru or...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes, yes. There is no difference between devotee and God. You see? Sometimes a devotee is given a greater place than God Himself. Mad-bhaktaḥ pūjābhyādhikaḥ. Just like Kṛṣṇa is God or Arjuna is devotee. So Arjuna is given superior place, to sit on the chariot, and Kṛṣṇa is driver of the chariot. That does not mean Kṛṣṇa has degraded from His position. Kṛṣṇa, or God, in any position, He is God.
Guest: But Kṛṣṇa was not disciple of anyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Whose disciple was Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: He was also disciple of Sandipani Muni. Everyone has to become disciple. That is the Vedic system. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ gurum evābhigacchet. Without becoming disciple, nobody can understand.
Guest: No, but Kṛṣṇa was Supreme God.
Prabhupāda: That not... Supreme God... But He was playing just like human being. Supreme God we know by His activities. But He played the part of human being. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: BG 9.11 "Because I am playing just like ordinary human being, those who are foolish persons, mūḍha, less intelligent, they accept Me as ordinary man." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ: "They do not know the greatness behind Me. They do not know." Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Mama bhūta-maheśvaram: "That I am the Supreme Lord." Because they do not know, therefore, simply by superficial observation, that "He is playing just like ordinary man," that "He is the chariot driver of Arjuna..." Now, somebody may say, "How Kṛṣṇa can be the Supreme Personality of Godhead? He was ordinary chariot driver of Arjuna. He was ordinary cowherds boy." Muhyanti yat sūrayayaḥ. Very great sages, great saintly persons, also sometimes become bewildered. But to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is explained also in the Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 9.11 . Not by learning, not by education, not by scholarship. Bhaktyā. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: "In reality what I am, that can be understood by the devotees, not by others." And in the beginning also, of the Bhagavad-gītā teaching, He said Arjuna that "I am teaching Bhagavad-gītā to you because you are devotee." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si: BG 9.11 "You are My very dear friend and devotee. Therefore," rahasyam hy etad uttamam, "I am delivering this mystery of Bhagavad-gītā-yoga to you." So to understand Bhagavad-gītā requires that qualification: bhakto 'si. And similarly, on the Eighteenth Chapter, the Kṛṣṇa directly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati BG 9.11 . The brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is liberated stage from material contamination. But you have to develop further. In the liberated stage, if you shall be satisfied simply being brahma-bhūtaḥ, self-realized, understanding yourself as Brahman, that is not sufficient. You have to make further progress. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu BG 9.11 . When one has acquired these qualities, that he is no more, I mean to say, faltering in the matter of hankering and lamentation, and he is now on the transcendental stage of seeing every living entity on the equal level— samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu —at that stage one can enter into the devotional service. Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām BG 9.11 . So bhakti is above the liberated stage of life. And bhakti, when, if one is fortunate enough to come to that stage, above the liberated stage, then bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 9.11 , then through that para bhakti, pure devotional service, one can understand Kṛṣṇa in reality, tattvataḥ. And in another place He said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: BG 9.11 "Out of many millions of persons, somebody is interested for self-realization." Kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi. Siddhi. Siddhi-labha means perfection of human form of life. So nobody is interested. But there are some who are interested how to make this human form of life perfect. So, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā BG 9.11 . Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhāṇām: BG 9.11 "Out of many persons who are actually engaged in the matter of that perfection of life," kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ, "somebody may know in reality what I am," because that reality can be understood by the devotee. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 9.11 . He has not mentioned anything like jñānī or yogi or karmī. No. He has simply mentioned one thing, bhaktyā. And that is the process. (aside:) He is going. Give him prasāda. (Hindi) Give him prasāda, distribute. Yes.
Devotee: Distribute it now, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Guest (2) (Indian man): If Kṛṣṇa was not born, then what is the significance of that word, that sambhavāmi, dharma-samstha...
Prabhupāda: Sambhavāmi. That is not birth. Sambhavāmi means appearance. Appearance. Appearance.
Guest (2): But is it like sunrise?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gone outward... Just like when He appears you can see Him.
Guest (2): What about that Janmāṣṭamī? We observe all those things. What is the significance?
Prabhupāda: That sambhavāmi is taken as janma, just like when the sun appears we take it as the sunrise and we perform so many things, similarly. You please take some prasādam. Yes. Sit down. Please sit down. Take some prasādam. Here is... Sit down.
Guest (2): But the thing is Kṛṣṇa never came here with the...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa appeared when... That Janmāṣṭamī, what you say... That you have to hear, about the Janmāṣṭamī, from Bhāgavatam. When Devakī was to give delivery of the child, at that time Kṛṣṇa appeared in Nārāyaṇa-mūrti before her. He never...
Guest (2): What about Gopāla-mūrti?
Prabhupāda: No. In Nārāyaṇa-mūrti. Nārāyaṇa-mūrti appeared, and then the Vasudeva and Devakī prayed for... Then they prayed for, that "My Lord, You have appeared. I can understand. Now, if You remain in this Nārāyaṇa-mūrti, then immediately Kamsa will come. Please take the form of an ordinary child." So He transformed into ordinary child and was lying down. So He appeared. Sambhavāmi. Sambhavāmi means appearance. And besides that, even He appears just like ordinary child, so that is also no birth. That does not mean Kṛṣṇa is nonimportant. He can appear in any way.
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Nāhaṁ sarvasya prakāśaḥ yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ: "I am not visible to everyone. I am covered by the yogamāyā ." (Hindi) Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti BG 18.55 . That quality is bhakti. If you become bhakta, then you can understand bhagavat... (Hindi) Otherwise, it is not possible. (Hindi) (end)