760123 - Morning Walk - Mayapur

Morning Walks by Date, 1976

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

760123MW-MAYAPUR - January 23, 1976 - 59:42 Minutes

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: . . . last month?

Prabhupāda: No, they gave it, account up to December 12, week ending on December 12.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there was a six-day period when they sold 650,000 pieces of literature, six days.

Prabhupāda: Recently we have published abridged edition of Bhagavad-gītā, 350,000 . . . three hundred and fifty hundred thousand.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Three and a half lakhs.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Already, though, over half of it is sold out. In one month we've sold over half the printing.

Indian man (4): Even among Indians it is so popular, Prabhupāda. I have seen.

Prabhupāda: Which one?

Indian man (4): Your Bhagavad-gītā. All the Indians, in meeting they all come. Two or three times I have met. Some of them say, "You have got more? You have got more Bhagavad-gītā?"

Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Why they look . . . (indistinct) . . .? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Cent percent cheater, beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes—even we have seen it in childhood—"Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them, that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is the need of a son.

Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Duty of a son.

Prabhupāda: Therefore ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatruḥ (Cāṇakya Paṇḍita). A father dies insolvent, debtor - he is enemy, because the son has to pay according to Manu-saṁhitā law. Because he inherits father's money, why he shall not pay if the father is debtor?

Jayapatākā: He also inherits the debt.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is India's law. You cannot simply inherit father's property and no debt. You inherit father's debt also. So a father dies debted, indebtor—he is supposed to be enemy, because the son has to pay. Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dhicārinī. And mother, if she marries for the second time in spite of presence of children, she is enemy. And in Western countries it is very common affair.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Divorce and remarry.

Prabhupāda: All enemies. Mother enemy, father enemy. And then? Ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dhicārinī, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. And if the wife is very beautiful, she is also enemy. And putraḥ śatrur apaṇḍitaḥ. And the son, if he's a rascal, he is enemy. That's all. This is family enemies. In the family nobody expects enemy, but Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that these are enemies in the family: ṛṇa-kartā pitā śatrur mātā śatrur dhicārinī, rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Now everyone is hankering after very beautiful wife, and Cāṇakya Paṇḍita said, "Then you are bringing one enemy." Just see what is the type of civilization. Because if you become too much attached to wife, then you'll never be able to go out of home and take sannyāsa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Andha-kūpam.

Prabhupāda: Andha-kūpam. You shall have to die. Gṛham andha-kūpam. Hitvātma-pātaṁ gṛham andha-kūpaṁ vanaṁ gato . . . (SB 7.5.5). You'll never be able to leave the home if wife is very attractive. Of course, everyone's wife is very attractive. (laughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if ugly.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That . . . one, our Sanskrit professor used to . . . "My dear boys, even there is beauty amongst the Negroes." He used to say. And it is my . . . it is one's eye that she is very beautiful. It does not recommend others' recommendation. Yar saṅge ye morje man kibari ki vardana. It doesn't matter whether she low caste or high caste; if she is attractive, then it is all right. Therefore rūpavatī bhāryā śatruḥ. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita's instruction are very, very nice. You know my story? My father's instruction? Yes.

Harikeśa: What was that?

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) My wife was never beautiful to my sight, so I wanted to marry again, and my father advised, "Don't do it. She is your friend, that you don't like her." (laughs) Just see.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still, Prabhupāda, you said that your school work was a little impeded . . .

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, that is natural. In young time, when there is young girl . . . that is also said, yauvane kukkarī sundarī. When woman is in full youth, even she is like dog, she is beautiful. (laughs) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who said that? Whose statement was that?

Prabhupāda: No, that was also . . . I do not know, but this is going on. (laughs) (laughter) Yauvane kukkarī sundarī. It is by nature's arrangement the woman is given one chance at the time of youthfulness. Otherwise how she will be given protection by a man? They require protection. If somebody is not attracted, then how she gets protection? This is natural.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nowadays, though, even if she is attractive, the men simply take advantage.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: And they call this liberation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the women want it.

Prabhupāda: Want means as the social practice is there, everyone becomes victimized.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's not their fault.

Prabhupāda: The social system in India, that a boy, say, twenty, twenty-five years, and a girl, twelve to sixteen years, must be married. Must be married. And before marriage the girl should not see any boy, and the boy should not see any woman. Then the life is all right. Even in U.P. still, the system is that before marriage the boy should not see, the marriage takes place. Nowadays it has been practiced that boy goes to see the girl, but formerly it was not. She should not see. She should see the girl when the marriage actually takes place, not before that. The psychology is that when they require a man or a girl, so whatever she is or he is, they accept and they remain chaste, so there is no separation. This is the psychology. Whenever you are hungry, whatever nonsense foodstuff is offered to you, it is palatable. Is it not? Because, after all, it is the appetite which eats, not the foodstuff. Foodstuff may be very, very nicely prepared, but if you have no appetite, it is finished. (chuckles) You know the history of Ramakrishna? Did I say? Yes. So he had no appetite, and he very tactfully said, "Oh, you are not my wife, you are my mother." And he became Bhagavān.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if he had no appetite, it means he was transcendentally situated?

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not transcendentally. In his young time he used so many women that after marriage he was impotent. So he could not use, and he made a tact that "I see all women as my mother, even my wife." And that made him famous, this jugglery. Phuraphai govindāya namaḥ. Flying . . . what is called? Puffed rice flying: "All right, govindāya namaḥ. I offer to Govinda." Phuraphai govindāya. Where is in the history that a saintly person has called his wife "mother"? The saintly person give some home, that's all. And where is the . . . such instance—a saintly man calls his wife as "mother"? He is the only man. "Mā."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda, there's another thing I noticed, that in the pictures very often of Ramakrishna and his mother, his wife, whichever one she is, they show . . .

Prabhupāda: No, they show that "This is husband and wife. Ramakrishna was so advanced that even his wife, he left her, considering, 'She is my mother.' By worshiping mother Kālī he has become so perfect that sees all women as mother." He does not require to become Bhagavān. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says that mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Para-dāreṣu, not your own wife. Huh? Others' wife should be treated as mother. That is our Indian system. But he wanted to overcome that, that "I call even my wife mother."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That "I am better than . . ."

Prabhupāda: Ah, better than all others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The question I've had is that in the pictures they always show her head. She is bareheaded. She doesn't cover her head. And I noticed the thing that when we're sometimes passing in a car in Bengal I notice that the women, very often, they don't . . . it's more in this state than anywhere else, they don't cover their head. Is that due to her influence?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The system is when the woman is at the care of father she does not cover. But when she is under the care of husband she must cover. By dress you can understand what she is, whether she is widow, whether she has got husband, whether she is prostitute. Everything by dress you'll understand. Nowadays the fashion is the woman has the baka sīmanta here, not here.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prostitute.

Prabhupāda: But that was meant for prostitute. If the woman has sīmanta here, then you should understand. Then you can freely talk with. She is advertising, "Yes, I am prostitute. You can talk with me." Without that signboard, no man is gentleman if he wants to talk with another woman. He can talk only with that woman. Neither you can talk with widow. That girl, our Śivaśakti's mother? She is dressing herself as widow. That is very nice. Very nice. That simple dress will not attract men.

Bhavānanda: In America, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes when I preached in the schools I used that example, that how by looking at a woman's part of her hair you can tell what she is. And so many of the girls in the class, they had their hair parted on the side. So I when said a woman who has her hair parted on the side is a prostitute, oh, they all laughed.

Prabhupāda: "And what is the wrong to become prostitute?" They accept it, "All right, we are prostitute."

Bhavānanda: Right. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Now there is no distinction between prostitute and chaste.

Jayapatākā: That was published in the Bombay Illustrated Weekly, that the prostitutes are having difficulty because women are so freely available that no one is coming to pay for them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is the position.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unemployment.

Prabhupāda: Because everyone is prostitute. Gardulika pravaha. You know gardulika pravaha? This nyāya, logic? Garduli pravaha. One brāhmaṇa was taking bath daily in the Ganges. So as a brāhmaṇa's regulative principle, they take kośa-kuśī to offer oblation to the forefathers, śraddhā. So one day he found there are so many kośa-kuśīs, so he could not understand which is his own. So next day, just to find out his own, he put one, I mean, earth ball in his own kośa. Kośa you understand?

Jayapatākā: Some plate.

Prabhupāda: One plate, yes. It is placed like this. So when he came from . . . after bathing, he saw that so many kośas are . . . everything is containing that ball, gardulika. Then again he was puzzled that he put a ball in his own kośa so that he can find out, but when he came back from bathing he saw that all the kośas . . . then he asked all other brāhmaṇas, "How is that, that there are so many balls in everyone's kośa? I put it to recognize my own." So they said, "I thought that it is a fashion now. It is an occasion to put a ball in . . ." Gardulika pravāha. The same difficulty. At Bombay there was some news like this, that prostitutes are not doing well in their profession? Who told me that?

Harikeśa: He said it was in the Illustrated Weekly.

Prabhupāda: Oh. When it was?

Jayapatākā: About one year ago. There was a big article on prostitution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we understand that in the Satya-yuga one hundred percent of the population was God conscious. But then again, we see many times it is stated that, for example, there were always prostitutes or there was always this or . . .

Prabhupāda: No, there were no prostitute in Satya-yuga.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No meat-eaters.

Prabhupāda: No meat-eaters.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: None whatsoever.

Prabhupāda: All paramahaṁsas. In the Satya-yuga they are all paramahaṁsa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Every single person.

Prabhupāda: Every person was perfectly, spiritually . . .

Harikeśa: On the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then in Tretā-yuga, one-fourth diminished. And then Dvāpara-yuga, half diminished. And in Kali-yuga, three-fourth diminished. Seventy-five percent are all rogues, and twenty-five percent . . . that is expected, but that is now diminishing. They are all rogues with the advancement of Kali-yuga. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). Therefore there is no other method to save them. Harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's gift. Incorrigible. Everyone will be incorrigible. Only hope is Hare Kṛṣṇa. The whole Vedic system is to make human being correct. Being incorrect, they are suffering in this material world repetition of birth, death—sometimes man, sometimes dog. So to correct him so that he comes to his original position, Kṛṣṇa conscious, and go back to home. This is the whole Vedic civilization, to correct him. Therefore it is called saṁskāra. Saṁskāra means correction. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Veda-pāṭhād bhaved vipro brahma jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. To correct him and bring him to the brahminical stage. From pig stage to brahminical stage. This is Vedic civilization. Everyone is like pig in this material world. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now don't live like pig." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1): "Now you, My children . . . " He was advising, instructing His son that "Now this life is not to live like pig." This is the first instruction, because everyone is more or less pig, living like pig. Pig means he has no discrimination of eating and he has no discrimination of sex. That is pig. And everyone is like that. No discrimination of eating, especially in the Western . . . and no discrimination of sex. Pigs. Big pig or small pig, that's all. So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "Now, My dear sons, don't spoil your life living like pigs." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means "In the human society you should not live like pig and very hard labor." So the whole civilization at the present moment they want to live like pig, and to live like pig they are working like an ass. And that is civilization, working like ass to become a pig. You tell them!

Harikeśa: They will get very angry.

Prabhupāda: Angry . . . with shoes. We beat them with shoes, that "You have created a civilization to work like ass, and ideal is to become a pig. What is this civilization? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puru . . . (SB 2.3.19). And for their votes you become a president. What you are better than a pig? A pig votes for another pig, big pig. That's all. How people will be happy?"

Harikeśa: You told them that in South Africa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Did I say?

Harikeśa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But they clapped.

Harikeśa: Yes. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They appreciated. Although they do not take Indians very seriously . . .

Harikeśa: "Third-class citizens."

Prabhupāda: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books, and they clapped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. South Africa is a . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I . . . very much I was astonished that how these . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them?

Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. I thought only Indians attended.

Harikeśa: Oh, no.

Prabhupāda: No, no. White men. Yes. And in Melbourne the priests also appreciated. So any sane man will appreciate our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These are very strong words, that "You have created a civilization of pig, and for making perfect that civilization you are working like ass." So what is the advancement? A ass is trying to become a pig. What is that civilization? So ideal is to become a pig, and for that, fulfillment of that idea, they are working like ass. Is it not? Just see. Think over.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we speak like that in the classrooms, whew!

Bhavānanda: They like it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very strong.

Prabhupāda: This is the fact. Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. They are very much proud: "I have got ninety-nine percent votes, and I have become President." But what you are? You are another big pig only. Who has voted you? The voters are pigs and asses and camel and dogs. So if these animal vote for somebody, then what he is? Is there . . . are . . . their votes are calculable at all? Votes by the dogs, pigs, camels, and . . . śva-viḍ-varāha. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-khara, and asses. So what is the value of these votes? And that is going on, democracy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How can they vote for human beings?

Prabhupāda: There is no human being. A big . . . I gave that a big animal, lion, is fearful to the small animal. But because he is lion, very strong, does it mean that he's a human being? That is going on. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). If one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's nothing but animal. So if other small animals praise him, "Oh, you are . . ." This Gandhi or Indira Gandhi or . . . and the Hitler and . . . what is the value? He's a big animal, that's all.

Harikeśa: You were saying in Vṛndāvana they tweak each other's ear.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Churchill was tweaking the ear of Hitler, and Hitler was tweaking . . . like in school the two children?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Jayapatākā: Yesterday you mentioned to the Secretary that the members of legislature should all be Vaiṣṇavas. They should all be brahminically qual . . .

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇa-vaiṣṇava.

Jayapatākā: Brāhmaṇa-vaiṣṇava. Then they could give true advice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is this nonsense asses and pigs and dogs and cats? What they will do?

Jayapatākā: So that one goal we could have is that they would pass a law that no one could be a member of a legislature who didn't follow the four regulative principles.

Prabhupāda: Who will do that? That can be possible if you spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement very widely and they become convinced that "We shall not vote anyone to these rascals. We must have a Vaiṣṇava." Then everything will be changed. That is the only opportunity, that if people become Vaiṣṇava and they decide that "We are not going to vote anyone who is not a Vaiṣṇava," then everything will be all right.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes the devotees question that the Kali-yuga is advancing, and in that sense the standards are deteriorating. Yet you are preaching that "Get everyone to the position where everyone is Kṛṣṇa conscious." How in the Kali-yuga advancing can everyone become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Prabhupāda: They do not understand. If I say, "The epidemic is increasing. You take this injection, then you can be saved. If you don't take vaccination, then you'll suffer," this is our propaganda. "You take this vaccination; you'll be saved. The epidemic is very strong." But if you think, "Now, because there is epidemic there is no other way. What is the use of taking vaccination?" this is no argument. The epidemic is there; the vaccination is there. (aside) This is tulasī? Tell them. The disease is there; the medicine is there. So intelligent man should take the medicine, precaution, and then he'll be saved. Two things are there. Kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā (CC Adi 17.21). In Kali-yuga, if you don't take this, then there is no means of your save, safety. The two things are there. Why you are taking one thing? You take this thing or . . . (break) Everywhere two things are there: do's and don't's. So in order to make the process of do's you have to accept the process of don't's. That Nectar of Instruction, Rūpa Gosvāmī? He's instructing both the do's and the don't's. Huh? You have read it?

Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca . . . (NOI 2).

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Harikeśa: Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That is don't's.

Harikeśa: Utsāhān niścayāt . . .

Prabhupāda: This is do's. That is instruction. Why should you take one side? Take both sides.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in those two verses, one is don't and one is do, but the . . .

Prabhupāda: You have to take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There is still a statement in the do's which is a don't, where it says, "Don't associate with nondevotees." Utsāhān niścayād dhairyāt tat-tat-karma-pravartanāt . . . (Upadeśāmṛta 3).

Prabhupāda: Sato vṛtteḥ saṅga-tyāgāt.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Saṅga-tyāgāt sato vṛtteḥ. So that's a don't.

Prabhupāda: No, no. There is don'ts and do's also. Sato vṛtteḥ. This is do's. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it's translated as "Don't associate with the nondevotees."

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. All the ślokas, they are . . . in some śloka the do's are prominent, some ślokas don'ts are prominent, but in every śloka there is do's and don'ts. Everywhere there is. In the Bible also: "Thou shall not do. Thou shall not kill." The don'ts. (break) You are learning śabda-rūpa, dhātu-rūpa?

Hiraṇyagarbha: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Every śloka there is śabda, dhātu, everything. Nominative, objective. (break) . . . some you are going to say, just study yourself, whether it is not the civilization of asses and pigs. You have to understand first of all. Is it not? They are working hard like an ass just to become an ideal pig. Is it not this civilization?

Harikeśa: Having sex with mother, daughter, sister . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. How śāstra has picked up the example, just see. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate . . . (SB 5.5.1). What is that?

Harikeśa: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye.

Prabhupāda: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is simply wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."

īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ

hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati

bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni

yantrārūḍhāni māyayā

(BG 18.61)

Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs."

Harikeśa: Pigs don't like to live in a clean house.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is a story in Bhāgavata that Indra was cursed to become a pig. So after some time there was mismanagement in the heavenly kingdom. Brahmā personally came, "Indra, anyway, you became pig. Now you come with me." "Huh? How can I go? I have got so much responsibility." Then he was killed and took to heaven. So any life, any abominable condition, everyone is thinking, "I am perfect." This is called māyā. Any abominable condition, he is thinking, everyone is thinking, that "I am perfect. I have nothing to advance." This is called māyā. They do not know what is perfection. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). The ideal perfection they do not know. They are trying that "We shall make this pig life adjusted to civilized life." Is it possible? Pig life and adjusting to civilized life? (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we shall get down? (break) Nobody will accept. But if you explain that "You are no better than pigs and hogs and asses," then they will accept. So we have to take the idea from Bhāgavata and explain it for their understanding. That is wanted. (break) People are working so hard. Is it pleasure? But why they are working? They are working with the only hope that "Night, I shall go home, eat nicely and have sex with my wife." That's all. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Otherwise why they will work so hard? (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) . . . Los Angeles we have got a plant like this next to my window. That land for others, but it comes to my window. What is this?

Bhavānanda: Bougainvillea.

Harikeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? What about the point, in certain places in Bhāgavatam it distinctly says that the human being's food is creatures of four legs with cloven hoof?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Harikeśa: It distinctly says in some places in Bhāgavatam that the human being's food is four-legged animals with a cloven hoof.

Prabhupāda: Yes, if you remain animal. But that is not the ideal, that you remain animal. That is culture. If you want to remain animal, then it is all right. If you want to remain pig, you eat whatever you like. But if you don't want to remain a pig, then you have got to make discrimination. You have to take kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Because it is Bhāgavatam, it is written that one animal is food for another animal. That is for the animal. And I have already said that this Vedic civilization is meant for making the animal a perfect person.

Harikeśa: In the Manu-saṁhitā also there is many, many rules about what kind of meat to eat.

Prabhupāda: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. But that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kālī under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man—"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat. Why śāstra should . . . the real way, nivṛtteḥ . . . pravṛttir eṣāṁ bhūtānāṁ nivṛttes tu mahā-phalam (Manu-saṁhitā). The pravṛtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1), that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya—athāto brahma jijñāsā—only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brāhmaṇas, high literature, everything.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? One time you were explaining that Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with the Kazi, He convinced him about that the Koran does not actually advocate meat-eating.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Because the Muslims, they also cannot eat meat unless it is sacrificed in the mosque. There is no recommendation that you purchase from the market and the animal be slaughtered in the slaughterhouse.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some mention not to eat many animals but eat one . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what I . . . I couldn't remember.

Prabhupāda: Yes. In Arabia they were to eat animal, but to save him from so many dangerous and sinful life—he has to kill so many goats—better kill one life, a camel or a cow. Camel is big animal. So if you kill one animal, camel, it is equal to fifty goats.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about a cow?

Prabhupāda: A cow is also big animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they say like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes . . . they don't say cow. They say better kill one big animal. So "Instead of becoming sinful for killing so many animals, you better kill . . ." And that is also sacrificed in the mosque, and that is called koravāni. Restriction is there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there's no . . . the karma for killing many goats is more severe than killing one cow.

Prabhupāda: No, no. You become responsible for each and every animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Irrespective of what kind of animal.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now if you can serve the purpose by killing one animal, why should you take the risk of killing many animals?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if that one animal is a cow.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Animal is animal. And we say protect cow from economic point of view, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Without saving cows you cannot get good food. Not from the animal point of view. You require milk and milk preparation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the cow dies anyway.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cow is going to die naturally, anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then, if you want flesh, take that dead body and eat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why don't they see this, that just by killing a cow you don't get more cows. They're going to die anyway.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is going to die, but they are so voracious, they do not wait up to the death, and they have theorized that "Dead animal is dangerous to health. Now kill while it is in life."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just see.

Harikeśa: Yes, they think like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the reason.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but . . . they have got so many nonsense philosophy. But if that philosophy is supported, when you kill the animal, he becomes dead. (laughter)

Sudāmā: Yes, they call it "fresh meat."

Prabhupāda: Just see. "Fresh dead." Just see. The rascals are so fools that unless you make him dead, you cannot eat. So why do you theorize that a dead animal is not good?

Harikeśa: Well, 'cause he had to die from some cause, and that cause is . . .

Prabhupāda: Cause, all right. It is also cause. You are killing, that's all.

Harikeśa: The knife is clean, whereas the germs are . . .

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Formerly the Hindus, they used to purchase meat and cook it in Ganges water. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, boy.

Harikeśa: Purify it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They thought, "Now it is . . ." And you will still find in Calcutta, "Hindu butcher." That Hindu butcher is pure. There is a . . . You have been in Calcutta? So they are going on.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Jews have that, "Kosher butcher."

Prabhupāda: "Mother's prasādam." The rascals say, "It is mother's prasādam."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Durgā, Kālī-prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The Ramakrishna Mission, they take mother's prasādam. And they call . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And you will also be mother's prasādam.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Sudāmā: Even they kill fresh, Śrīla Prabhupāda, sometimes they will kill a cow who has some disease in liver, and then they will eat it and they will all die . . .

Prabhupāda: Well, they manufacture so many ways. That does not mean we have to support it. We accept that these are animals, that's all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda? There's a . . . I was telling . . . we were talking this morning that in America they have a custom. The children, when they eat a dead, like a bird or something, a turkey, there is one part, I think it's the breastbone. So the children, after one of them finishes eating the breastbone, they both hold, each hold one end, and they break it, and whoever has the biggest part . . . each one makes a wish. Whoever gets the biggest part, they think that their wish will be fulfilled. So this is a rākṣasa civilization. So I am only amazed how you were able to make such a big movement with so many . . . such rākṣasas as we are. That was what I was thinking, that we were the people who were doing that, and yet you have delivered us.

Prabhupāda: And therefore people are surprised that "How this man is doing like this?" They are surprised. Everyone is surprised.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can't imagine how fallen we were. I don't think they think it's really possible to reform so . . .

Prabhupāda: It is impossible.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you have done the impossible.

Sudāmā: Therefore they think that we are hypnotized.

Prabhupāda: Even Śrīdhara Mahārāja says that "This pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma (CB Antya-khaṇḍa 4.126), we simply thought that it is an ideal, but you have practically done this." He admits that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember.

Dayānanda: In London you said that you were changing crows to swans.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dayānanda: It is impossible to change a crow to swan, but you are changing crows to swans.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, in reading the description of Jagāi and Mādhāi, they don't seem as bad as we were.

Prabhupāda: (laughs)

Harikeśa: That's a fact.

Prabhupāda: We shall go this way? No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, we have time.

Prabhupāda: Therefore Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha: "I am lower than the Jagāi-Mādhāi."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "And to utter my name . . ." I think the next verse he says, "To utter my name will bring all . . ."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya: "If one takes my name, then whatever little pious activities you have, it is spoiled." Purīṣera kīṭa haite muñi se laghiṣṭha (CC Adi 5.205), jagāi mādhāi haite muñi se pāpiṣṭha. Mora nāma śune yei tāra puṇya kṣaya. How humble he is.

Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra was also thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Mahārāja Pratāparudra, when he was refused interviews by Lord Caitanya.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: He was thinking, "He saved Jagāi and Mādhāi, but I am so low that He won't come and see . . . I am not able to see Him."

Prabhupāda: Yes. "Jagāi-Mādhāi was delivered, but I am so lower that I have no chance of being delivered." Pratāparudra Mahārāja.

Harikeśa: It's inconceivable how he could think like that.

Prabhupāda: No, every Vaiṣṇava thinks like that. A Vaiṣṇava never thinks, "I have become perfect." Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, what to speak of others. (break) . . . are carrying cement? Hmm? (end)