710222 - Lecture SB 06.03.30-31 - Gorakhpur

Lectures by Date, 1971

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

710222SB-GORAKHPUR- February 22, 1971 - 68:26 Minutes

Prabhupāda:

tat kṣamyatāṁ sa bhagavān puruṣaḥ purāṇo

nārāyaṇaḥ sva-puruṣair yad asat kṛtaṁ naḥ

svānām aho na viduṣāṁ racitāñjalīnāṁ

kṣāntir garīyasi namaḥ puruṣāya bhūmne

(SB 6.3.30)

Now Yamarāja is begging pardon from the Supreme Personality of Godhead because his men attempted to arrest a devotee—just see. He says: "I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead that He may cleanse my men because they have committed a great offense by attempting to arrest a devotee."

bhagavantaṁ kṣamāpayati,tad iti

naḥ sva-puruṣair asmadīyatvena sthitaiḥ svīyair eva puruṣair yadyasmād asad anyāyyaṁ kṛtaṁ tat tasmāt svayam eva kṣamyatāṁ . . .

(Bhāvārtha-dīpikā 6.3.30)

tat kṣamyatāṁ sa bhagavān puruṣaḥ purāṇo

nārāyaṇaḥ sva-puruṣair yad asat kṛtaṁ naḥ

Asat-kṛtaṁ, sat-kṛtaṁ means: "To offer respects," and asat-kṛtaṁ means: "To offer disrespects." To offer disrespects to devotees. As you know Vaiṣṇava aparādha, that's a great offense. And he says: "naḥ". Naḥ means: "Including myself." He is taking responsibility himself also. "So I did not advise, instruct my men before. That they should not go to a devotees—ah that was my offense." Just see how a Vaiṣṇava is humble and meek. Yamarāja, the superintendent of death, a still he's so humble and meek.

tat kṣamyatāṁ sa bhagavān puruṣaḥ purāṇo

nārāyaṇaḥ sva-puruṣair yad asat kṛtaṁ naḥ

svānām aho na viduṣāṁ racitāñjalīnāṁ

kṣāntir garīyasi namaḥ puruṣāya bhūmne

(SB 6.3.30)

naḥ sva-puruṣair asmadīyatvena sthitaiḥ svīyair eva puruṣair yadyasmād

sad anyāyyaṁ kṛtaṁ tat tasmāt svayam eva kṣamyatāṁ sahatām

svānāṁ svīyānāṁ bhaktānāṁ no’smākaṁ na viduṣām ajñānām

aho garīyasi tasmin kṣāntir yuktaiva

maha iti pāṭhe svīyānāṁ māhātmyam aviduṣāṁ naḥ kṣamāṁ karotv ity arthaḥ

(Bhāvārtha-dīpikā 6.3.30)

"So, so we did not know, neither my men did not know. Without knowing a devotee we tried to arrest," because that was not their mistake. This is the significance of this verse. They knew it very well because in the record of Yamarāja the all the criminal or sinful activities committed by Ajamila was recorded. But by chance he chanted the name of Nārāyaṇa therefore he was indemnified immediately for all his offenses—but that was not known to the assistants of Yamarāja.

tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor

jagan-maṅgalam aṁhasām

mahatām api kauravya

viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam

(SB 6.3.31)

Now he concludes, Śukadeva Gosvāmī is concluding, kauravya. This is term addressing Mahārāja Pariksit as the descendent of the Kurus, kauravya. Tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor, last night somebody was speaking that, "Any name chanting will do." No. Saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor. It is going on that any name, any demigod's name and there is a big propaganda on this point. Some. "So far great personalities, they think like that, that any name will do." But the śastra does not say that, hari-nāma. Śastra says the holy name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Here also it is said: tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor, not any other demigod's name—not this. But they by force, because they are impersonalists, they manufacture such theories without any reference to the authoritative śastra. Viṣṇu-nāma, there are ten thousands of names of Viṣṇu. If you chant Viṣṇu's name, viṣṇusahasra name, thousand names of . . . there is a book, perhaps everyone of you know? Viṣṇusahasra-nāma.

So here also it is said: "Out of thousands and thousands of name of Viṣṇu you can chant any one of them." Not any other names. Not that if I chant Kali's name. There is a regular Kali kīrtana party in Calcutta, perhaps you know. So these are all imitation, concocted. I have seen there is a party called Kali Kīrtana Party. So that is a useless waste of time. Such saṅkīrtana will not do. Here it is particularly mentioned: tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor. Because by chanting Viṣṇu's name, Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa the same, viṣṇu-tattva, viṣṇu-tattva. In the category of Viṣṇu all these names: Kṛṣṇa, Rāma, Madhusūdana, Nārāyaṇa, so many thousands of names. They count. Chanting the Viṣṇu's name there will be profit, there will be benefit because jagan-maṅgalam, jagan-maṅgalam aṁhasām—or all kinds of people, aṁhasām—or sinful men. It is the most auspicious chanting Viṣṇu's names. Just like we chant the mantra:

apavitraḥ pavitro vā

sarvāvasthāṁ gato 'pi vā

yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ

sa bāhyābhyantaraḥ-śuciḥ

(Garuḍa Purāṇa)

śrī viṣṇu, śrī viṣṇu, śrī viṣṇu

That is the recommendation of all śāstras. If one. According to Vedic principles if anyone says something which is wrong he immediately rectifies himself, "śrī viṣṇu, śrī viṣṇu, śrī viṣṇu: Oh I have done this wrong." Not any other method. And not . . . nobody is recommended to say, "śrī sīdala, śrī sīdala, śrī viṣṇu." No. Śrī Viṣṇu.

tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ

sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ

(Ṛg Veda 1.22.20)

This mantra, Viṣṇu is the parama pada. So here it is also saying the same thing, in the Vedic literature you won't find any contradiction. Sometimes we argue, "Somebody has said like this, some mahātmā says like this." That is not very valued argument. Valued argument is when you quote from the Vedic literature, that is valuable. Veda-pramāṇa, śruti-pramāṇa. The śruti-pramāṇa is accepted amongst the authorities. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, all the ācāryas, they write comments on any authoritative book immediately giving quotations from Vedas to support his comments. Otherwise a personal comment has no meaning. If I comment on some Vedic literature on my personal point of view that is useless, it has no meaning but it is going on, "Oh such and such person." Unless one comes through the paramparā system his personality has no value: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ, Bhagavad-gītā (BG 4.2).

Unless one comes in the disciplic succession, chain of disciplic succession, so such persons. I mean to say, opinions or comments has no value.

tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor

jagan-maṅgalam aṁhasām

mahatām api kauravya

(SB 6.3.31)

Mahatām api: Not only ordinary sinful, even the greatest sinful, mahatām api kauravya. Viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam, aikāntika-niṣkṛtam: fully. If anyone once chants this Lord Viṣṇu's name, Kṛṣṇa's name, Lord Rāma's name:

Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare

Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare

Immediately aikāntika-niṣkṛtam, completely he becomes free from all sinful resultant actions. Immediately. But the difficulty is that after being released from such sinful resultant actions he again commits sins, because he is habituated, he's habituated. Therefore the habit has to be changed. The same example, just like the elephant takes bath very nicely in the sand and as soon as he comes over the land he takes some dust and throws over it. This mentality has to be changed but by construct even in the beginning one who is offender by chanting and committing again the same sin—because due to our practice. Kṛṣṇa says: api cet su-durācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk (BG 9.30).

"If he has got full faith in the chanting of His holy name even if he commits repeatedly sinful actions—on account of his past habits."

Not intentionally, it should not be intentionally done. If one thinks that, "I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra let me go on also committing sins, it will be counteracted." That is greatest crime. Unintentionally due to past habits if one falls down from the sin that is excused and that becomes rectified by chanting. We have to chant therefore a fixed numerical division. So many times, minimum sixteen rounds. It will take not more than two hours. So we can find out, out of twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes, fifteen minutes, fifteen minutes, while walking on the street, while going somewhere, in the bus, in the train and at home, whenever there is. Even by lying down, you can chant, there is no niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ (CC Antya 20.16). There is no such restriction that you have to chant this early in the morning or after taking bath or so many. That is good but even that facilities are not available a still we can chant until became, it is so nice. (tape problem) up to us but chanting sixteen rounds and you are avoiding the offenses. Ten kinds of offenses and take, receive the holy name through the proper channels. Authorized, in this way one can elevate from the material platform to the spiritual platform. Spiritual platform means to become free from material contamination, that is spiritual platform. Tri-guṇātita, material platform means the three guṇas: sattva, rajas tama. And when one meets transcendental to these guṇas —qualities:

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

One can transcend these three, three qualities. How?

māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena sevate

(BG 14.26)

One who is engaged in the devotional service without any . . . (indistinct) . . . in the beginning one has to . . . a little attached, then the parents haven't got to, of course then that, "Go to school and this and that," he automatically does. And that sort of mentality, in the beginning everything is like that. Formerly when boys and girls were married at an early age, the girls were about twelve years utmost. So the elderly members of the family used to teach the girls how to satisfy her husband but when the husband and wife become attached there was no need of such instruction. Similarly in the beginning one has to adopt the means and the prescribed rules and regulations of the śāstras for devotional service. But when he gets attachment, it is called āsakti, āsakti. Āsakti means attachment. There is stage, if you practice then there will be āsakti. Then āsakti is not also final, āsakti then next stage is bhāvaḥ and the next stage is premā. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo (CC Madhya 23.14).

If one has got a little faith in devotional service then, as you are all coming here, this is little respect or faith in the devotional service ādau śraddhā. That is the basic principle. Without śraddhā you can not make any progress but strictly speaking that śraddhā also unflinching. As it is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta: 'śraddhā'-śabde—viśvāsa kahe sudṛḍha niścaya (CC Madhya 22.62). That is śraddhā. Just like Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja

(BG 18.66)

Now śraddhā or respect for the statement means one who is firmly convinced. What is that?

That: kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. If I surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, under the at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa then all perfection of my activities will come. This firm conviction is the basic principle of śraddhā. If you have got a education Kṛṣṇa says that, "You surrender unto Me," and if I hesitate. I do not know whether Kṛṣṇa will be actually able to protect give me protection, that is not complete śraddhā. Śraddhā means, "Full faith." Yes. Kṛṣṇa the Supreme Personality of Godhead is assuring, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi, then why not surrender unto Him? On this conviction if one surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa that is the basic principle of śraddhā. That śraddhā you have to increase by your devotional service. That is the beginning if you have flickering faith then that is also lacking in śraddhā. So ādau śraddhā, so first of all you must have this śraddhā. Then because one has got śraddhā, naturally his business will be to associate with devotees. "Where devotees are sleeping? How the devotees are working? How they are developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Through associates, so therefore we give chance, opening centers, we give chance for association. "Please come, sit down here and just try to learn something about devotional service, take prasādam. In this way our activities are to give chance to the ordinary people for good association. If anyone has got śraddhā he will take advantage of the association. It is not a money making business that we keep one Deity, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, that is our business, how? Because we worship but however opportunity is offered to the people in general that they may come, they may offer obeisances, bow down before Kṛṣṇa. These every item is giving, helping him in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Is it true? If anyone comes simply bows down he becomes advanced. That we have discussed in the previous.

jihvā na vakti bhagavad-guṇa-nāmadheyaṁ

cetaś ca na smarati tac-caraṇāravindam kṛṣṇāya no namati

(SB 6.3.29 )

(aside) Don't do that.

Kṛṣṇāya no namati: Because the atheist class of men, they do not got to temples neither offer, neither bows down. So to give a chance because hundreds of devotees are bowing down, so one has to do it. That is their kṛṣṇa-bhakti phase, even if he does not like but out of previous . . . (indistinct) . . . would like to go, "Alright, take the arms and bow down." And as soon as he bows down he makes one step advancement, immediately. If he plays any instrument he advances, if he hears the prayer he advances. So these are the chances given to the ordinary neophytes. And as he comes, as he appreciates, sādhu-saṅgaḥ, ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo. The opportunity of sādhu-saṅga is given and by sādhu-saṅga, when he is rectified almost. He offers himself, "Swamiji kindly initiate me." I get so many letters, so many requests, that is natural. If one has actually done sādhu-saṅga he will be inclinded to be a bona fide disciple, he is guided by a bona fide spiritual master. That is called bhajana-kriyā.

ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-

saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā

(CC Madhya 23.14)

And if he actually follows the rules and regulations of bhajana then anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then anartha, unnecessary nonsense habits, sinful habits, will disappear. Just like these boys and girls they are habituated in so many unapproved habits but they have disappeared. Take for example they were meat-eating, they have given up meat-eating. They have given up, they were. Because in their social affairs meat-eating and drinking is a common thing, in Europe and America but this bhajana-kriyā helped them to give up everything. They are not even smoking, what to speak of drinking, they do not smoke even cigarettes, don't take tea, don't take coffee. This is called anartha-nivṛttiḥ. Nivṛttiḥ means: "Vanishing, completely vanishing." Anartha, anartha, "That is not required." Nobody is dying without smoking, nobody is dying without drinking tea, nobody is dying without illicit sex but by bad association one learns all this nonsense. So similarly by good association and bhajana-kriyā they can give it up. That chance we are giving. Anartha nivṛttiḥ syāt.

So after anartha-nivṛttiḥ, niṣṭhā: "Yes, I must take to devotional service," niṣṭhā. Then ruciḥ: then there is taste, there is taste. Wherever there is some talk of Kṛṣṇa immediately he goes there because he has got a taste. Then āsakti, āsakti means: "Attachment." When āsakti platform is there he can not give up—āsakti. Just like one becomes attached to drinking wine, he can not give up similarly the same āsakti is transferred to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he can not give up. Even if you pay him lakhs of rupees, "That give up this." Some of our students they have been actually offered by their fathers that, "You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I'll give you ten thousand dollars," and like that. "You do some business," but they, "No." They are living with us although they have no very good facility for eating, sleeping but still because there is attachment they are with us. That is called āsakti. After this āsakti there is bhāvaḥ—always thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and the next stage is prema: how to love Kṛṣṇa, become mad after Kṛṣṇa. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed the example:

yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa

cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam

śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ

govinda-viraheṇa me

(Cc Antya 20.39)

When there is prema these things comes to be manifest, yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa: "One moment will appear just like hundreds of years." Yugāyitaṁ nimeṣeṇa cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam: "Crying, the tears coming incessantly like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā prāvṛṣāyitam śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ, "And without Govinda, without Kṛṣṇa, the whole world is vacant." That is prema. Just like Gosvāmīs were, Gosvāmīs, they also told this: he rādhe! vraja-devike! ca lalite! he nanda-sūno! kutaḥ (Ṣaḍ-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka, 8).

They were living in Vṛndāvana, they were simply searching after, he rādhe!: Śrī Rādhārāṇī, he nanda-suta!: "O the son of Śrī Nanda Mahārāja," that means Kṛṣṇa. He rādhe! he nanda-sūno! he vraja-devike! ca lalite! Vraja-devī the gopīs, they are vraja-devīs.

Lalite: the principal of the gopīs, that's Rādhārāṇī. He rādhe! vraja-devike! ca lalite! he nanda-sūno! kutaḥ, "Why You are?" Govardhana-kalpa-pādapa-tale kālindī-vanye kutaḥ: "Are You near the Govardhan Hill or in the forest on the bank of the Yamunā River? Where You are?" This searching, this searching is called vipralamba, love in separation, that is wanted. Feeling separation intensely and searching after, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa?"

Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair mahā-vihvalau: The Gosvāmīs, they were searching after Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's associates all over Vṛndāvana—vraja-pure. Ghoṣantāv iti sarvato vraja-pure, khedair: simply lamenting, "Where You are? Where You are?" This is prema. Not that, "Oh I seen yesterday, last night, Kṛṣṇa. He was dressing my cloth." This is sahajiyā, this is sahajiyā. This is actual vairāgya, when one becomes mad after Kṛṣṇa, "Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa? Where is Kṛṣṇa?" That is prema and that is the highest perfection of life. So this highest perfection of life can be achieved beginning with:

tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor

jagan-maṅgalam aṁhasām

(SB 6.3.31)

Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord. Tasmāt saṅkīrtanaṁ viṣṇor: of Lord Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, Rāma. Then:

mahatām api kauravya

viddhy aikāntika-niṣkṛtam

Even one is very grievously offender, sinful, he is also relieved and as soon as he's relieved the other things will follow. So long one is not relieved from sinful activities one can not take to devotional service. That is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhagavad-gītā (7.28): yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. "One who is completely free from all sinful reaction."

The sinful reaction can be missing indistinct immediately freed by chanting but one who sticks to, "No more commit any sinful offense." He is immediately purified. It's yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. In this way, when one is completely freed from sinful actions, this janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, and as soon as he is freed from sinful reactions his next activities will be simply pious activities. Devotional service is simply pious, puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17).

Puṇya means: "Pious." Even one does not understand if he simply hears and chants, that is puṇya, pious activities. Therefore the devotee is always situated on the pious activity platform:

śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ

puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ

The same thing in Bhagavad-gītā:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ

janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām

te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā

bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ

(BG 7.28)

As soon as you are situated on this platform then there is no question of duality. Whether I shall do it or do not. He is fixed up. Te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ: and anyone who is engaged with faith and steadiness in devotional service, he is mahātmā.

mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha

daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ

bhajanty ananya-manaso

(BG 9.13)

That is the symptom of mahātmā, not that a manufactured mahātmā, doing all wrong things and becomes mahātmā—no. He is durātmā. Anyone who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa is a durātmā, he is not mahātmā. That is not said in the śāstras. You can not manufacture mahātmā by your concoctions, here is mahātmā: sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. He is fully surrendered unto Kṛṣṇa. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), that is mahātmā.

(After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.)

Devotee: Is bhakti . . . (indistinct) . . . mahābhāva . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Mahābhāva is just like . . . it is not possible by any ordinary. Mahābhāva stage is possible by the gopīs, the personal associates, eternal. And that is Kṛṣṇa's potency, pleasure potency. They are mahābhāgavatas, mahābhāva is . . . (indistinct) . . . or with Kṛṣṇa. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu has mahābhāva. Mahābhāva is not possible for ordinary devotees.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. That is imitation, even they show some symptoms of mahābhāva. Just like some falling down, this is imitation, chanting, chanting, fall down. Who will note this? You see? What is? So this is not possible for ordinary devotee, mahābhāva is different.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hm? Because Kṛṣṇa is God.

Indian Guest: Yes . . . (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian Guest: So there have been so many teachers like Ramakrishna . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well Ramakrishna is not a teacher.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . God.

Prabhupāda: Ah. These are manufactured. It is not bona fide.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: We cannot say I . . . at least we do not agree, you can not say whole world. So there is a list of incarnations, there are symptoms of incarnation. Incarnation does not mean anyone can claim that he is incarnation. There must be symptoms of incarnation. Every incarnation. Just like Lord Caitanya is accepted as incarnation in the śāstras and His symptoms are there:

kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ

sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam

yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair

yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ

(SB 11.5.32)

Similarly any incarnation you take, you have to consult śastra, characteristics of that incarnation.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . śāstras.

Prabhupāda: Well if there is not mentioned in the śāstras how you can accept incarnation?

Indian Guest: Well . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . natural that we are having . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. Even in the future.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Even in future tense just like Lord Buddha, that is mentioned. Although Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was written five thousand years ago. So Lord Buddha's name is there. Lord Buddha appeared three thousand five hundred or six hundred years, so bhaviṣyati. That means śastra is indicating in future Lord Buddha will come. Just like Kalki will come, that is also mentioned. In future at such and such time. Under such and such circumstances, "His father's name is that, his native place is that," everything is mentioned, that is śastras. Even if one is going to be incarnation in the future, that is also mentioned in the śastra. Not that because śastra was written at a certain time and the incarnation was not there. No, in the śastra the future incarnations are there also.

Indian Guest: But Swamiji . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But Ramana, what he is?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is (y)our misconception, what you know of Vedas?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That maybe, this is a fools paradise, that is the word, that is another thing, but our authorities. Just like Kṛṣṇa says: evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (Bg 4.2), "Unless one is coming down from the paramparā system. They are not authorities." They are not authorities.

Indian Guest 2: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But, but we do not say anyone who becomes in ecstasy in hari-kīrtana, he worships some demigod.

Indian Guest: You believe that Lord Christ was a incarnation of?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Śaktyāveśa-avatāra, yes. Mahābhāgavata also. He never said that, "I am God."

Indian Guest: How do you know that I am (he) son of God?

Prabhupāda: Son of God is different. Son of God, everyone is son of God, everyone is son of God.

Indian Guest: Son and the father are the same.

Prabhupāda: Yes, actually son and father is the same, that, there is no discrepancy. This misconception, without reference of the śāstras and authorities, has deteriorated India's position.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . great . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: He may be, a person may be very great devotee, great man, that is another thing. But to accept one as incarnation, that is different.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. He may be very great man, that is alright.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yad yad vibhūtimat sattva. Anyone a sense of exceptional qualities, mama tejo'ṁśa-sambhavam (BG 10.41), Kṛṣṇa says: "They are born of my tejaḥ, aṁsa."

But that does not mean he is incarnation. There were many persons, Hitler was also a very big man but that does not mean he becomes an incarnation. Napoleon Bonaparte, he also was a very big man. So in this world you will find big and bigger, bigger, bigger. One is bigger than another then up to go to Brahmā. Who can become like Brahmā? He has created this whole universe and he lives, you know? He lives: sahasra-yuga-paryantam, ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17), you can not calculate even his one day's life.

But he's not, he does never says that, "I am incarnation and God." So powerful. In comparison to Brahmā what are these insignificant—insignificant creatures? He is creator of this universe and his one day's life you can not calculate, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: sahasra-yuga-paryantam. Forty-three lakhs of years makes one yuga and multiply it by thousand, sahasra yuga ahar yad, that is Brahmā's twelve hours period. But he has never claims that he is incarnation of God. And what to speak of these insignificant—insignificant persons. So God or God's incarnation not so cheap thing? You should know what is God. That's from Bhagavad-gītā straight line , this Brahmā, why twelve hours you can not calculate? And how many in three days? Twelve hours you can calculate but twelve hours, again twelve hours night. Then, sahasra-yuga-paryantam, again in this one month, and this in one year, such one thousand years, a one hundred years to be. So you can not calculate. Such a big personality, the first-born creature within this universe, he also never claims that, "I am incarnation of God."

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Ramakrishna, he never would have claimed . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He, he claimed, he claimed. He claimed he said that, "I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa and Vivekananda accepted it."

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That way, that means he claimed, he claimed.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: If he did not claim then how Vivekananda knew that he is incarnation?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Well, at the last moment you can also say. Does it mean, does it, does it prove that you are incarnation? We shall have to see, what are your symptoms of incarnation. That is stated in this. Just like characteristics, if you want to test one, any chemical, say test this salt. The salt and the sugar, it is looking the same, sometimes we mistake. By tasting we can know that this is salt and this is sugar. So what is the test? Simply by declaring somehow, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa," also I become incarnation? What is the test? Just like test regarding Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Lord Buddhadeva, Kalki, there are tests. Lord Kṛṣṇa, there is test, Lord Rāmacandra, there is test. What is the test of this Ramakrishna becoming incarnation?

Just like we are singing the song:

rādhā-mādhava kuñja-bihārī

gopī-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhārī

(Gītāvalī)

Immediately, giri-vara-dhārī, lifting the hill, Govardhana Hill. It is impossible for any common man. A seven years old boy, he is lifting big hill.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Ramakrishna . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Govardhana . . . (indistinct) . . . Mount Everest . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: So you go on, you stop drinking that's very . . . all these boys have kicked up all these things without having being described as incarnation. Simply by my instruction, "You give up all this nonsense, they have sobered up." Does that mean I am incarnation because I have helped them in giving up drinking?

Indian Guest: (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They have kicked out, in one word, then I am better than Ramakrishna. Thousands of boys have given up. What Girish Ghose was? He was a gañjā smoker, I know. These are not the symptoms of incarnation. That helping one Girish Ghose from drinking. Now stopping these.

Indian Guest: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: An incarnation is not so cheap. We should consult śāstras, that will be difficult. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yaḥśāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti

(BG 16.23)

"You'll never get perfection." Na sukhaṁ: "Neither happiness." And what to speak of going to the transcendental world? Na parāṁ gatim. So we have to consult śāstras then understand who is incarnation, who is not incarnation and who is guru. This nonsense propagation that one, everyone can have his opinion and that is their religion. Now the result is the Naxalites, they have created like steal-men . That is also another way of realizing. So our, our point of view that we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa Consciousness Movement on the basis of śastra, not whimsically. Therefore I particularly named Kṛṣṇa—Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

So we are helping people just on the basis of Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Who can be greater instructor than Kṛṣṇa and who can be greater God than Kṛṣṇa? Supposing we accept Ramakrishna is incarnation, he says that, "I am the same Rāma-Kṛṣṇa," or Vivekananda preached that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa, the same Kṛṣṇa and Rāma." Now he is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. Not by his activities he is proving he's incarnation. He is taking shelter, "I am the same Kṛṣṇa and same Rāma." Is it not? What is that?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. No. If he says that, "I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa," that means he is taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa and Rāma. Is it not?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. No. That's all . . . (indistinct) . . . with reference to Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted as God.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Rāma and Kṛṣṇa and then again he came as Ramakrishna.

Prabhupāda: That's alright, he is, he is taking reference with Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa is accepted as Lord he is taking advantage of Kṛṣṇa's position, that's all. Is it not?

Indian Guest: I mean to say . . . (indistinct) . . . she has respect for all the family members but she has got a special love for her husband. But the same thing for a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Anyway . . .

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . everybody has a moment . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Not that. Suppose this lady says that, "I am the wife of such and such gentleman." So I am interested with such and such gentleman, or any other, anyone else. The interest is to be real husband not that I will accept somebody as her husband who is not real. So as soon as I say I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa then I am taking shelter of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: And his name is therefore given. His real name was Gadhadhara Chatterjee. His name was Gadhadhara Chatterjee, he was a priest and he was priest accepted as Rāma and Kṛṣṇa by Vivekananda, and priest. Now I, suppose he is incarnation of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, take it for granted. Now he is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa and Rāma so when Kṛṣṇa is there, Rāma is there, why you accept incarnation? Why not real Rāma and Kṛṣṇa?

Indian Guest: Well there are so many . . . (indistinct) . . . details . . . (indistinct) . . . and so on . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That, that. That is another thing but when we are speaking of Kṛṣṇa, of course there is no . . . there is no difference between, that we have to make a through study. Just like about Buddha, it is said that: sammohāya sura-dviṣām (SB 1.3.24).

Just to bewilder the atheist class of men, that is stated there. Lord Buddha appeared just to bewilder the sura-dviṣām, the sura dviṣām means, "Those who are envious of the devotees," or the atheist class of men. Now what was that bewilderment? The atheist class of man, they do not believe in God. Lord Buddha never said that there is God. He said that, "Yes, there is no God, there is no soul," ahiṁsā paramo dharmaḥ (Sātvata-tantra 9.40). "You just become non-violent and hear what I say." Now He is incarnation of God, He never says that, "I am incarnation," because He did not say about God so there is no question of He is saying that, "I am incarnation of God." But the śastra says that he is incarnation of God. So He says, to the atheist class. "Oh yes, if you hear me, I say that you become non-violent, don't kill animals." So God is saying in a different way but they are taking, "There is no God, let us follow Lord Buddha." That is called sammohāya, this very word is used.

So it is no use arguing but if you consult and take reference from the śastras, then everything will be clear. But if you say that, "There is no need of reference to the śastras," then there can not. There cannot be any end of argument.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are speaking on the authority of Bhagavad-gītā especially. Therefore our societies name is Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. But when you say something which has reference to the śāstras, we have to stick to the reference of the śāstras, otherwise there is no end of argument. Kṛṣṇa says: yathaidhāṁsi samiddho 'gnir. (BG 4.37)

We are referring to Bhagavad-gītā, that you can not go out of the reference of the śāstras to create something, that is not possible. That will not admit and nobody can create śāstras: dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ (SB 6.3.19).

Śastra and dharma is the creation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not that anyone can create any religious principle, no, that is also not possible. That is not allowed.

So Ramakrishna Mission says: yato mata tato patha. Is it not? That means anyone can create an institute of dharma.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . but God is one.

Prabhupāda: That's a fact, that's a fact but that God is not so cheap. That's a fact, God is one, it is not that, that anyone and everyone can become God.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . proved that theory and become realized God in this very life.

Prabhupāda: But he has not studied at least Hindu religion. I will say. I will give you evidence. You should refer to the Hindu religion system. Then I say he has not at least tried to know what is real religion. For arguement's sake.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No. Because you have referred, that's what I am replying you. Because you see if you refer something . . .

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . if we had more time. I shall come some time and . . .

Prabhupāda: No, we have got enough time, we are meant for this purpose, we can spend twenty-four hours for this way, if you get really time to hear. (pause)

Indian Guest: Then how long will you be here?

Prabhupāda: For the time being, suppose I'll be up to the end of this month. These boys and girls in Europe and America they have been benefited because they have no any concoctions within their brain. They have been presented, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), and they are, I mean to say ordered to follow certain principles, and they have faithfully done it and they have taken Kṛṣṇa consciousness and they are . . . (indistinct)

That is their . . . (indistinct) . . . they have no hodgepodge ideas . . . (indistinct) . . . and that is the only constitution by which they are improving so quickly. Within four years they have became so nice Vaiṣṇavas that in our country also, the Vaiṣṇavas are feeling ashamed by this sincere behaviour.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . sincere . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Here. What is that sincere? Sincerity means they have accepted the right thing. Kṛṣṇa says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja

(BG 18.66)

They have accepted. Sincerity. They have nothing within the brains that there was so many other kiñcana, other kiñcana and other kiñcana.

You should take Bhagavad-gītā, that is . . . that was spoken five thousand years ago and any section, any mission, they are referring to the Bhagavad-gītā. So they can not avoid Bhagavad-gītā.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then why not directly Bhagavad-gītā? Why you are going here and there? The Bhagavad-gītā is the essence, why you are going here and there? Take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and you will be benefited. Why adulteration? Why incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, why not Kṛṣṇa direct? That is our proposition. If you have got the original thing.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Kṛṣṇa was also incarnation of Viṣṇu only.

Prabhupāda: That's alright, we are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. That when the original thing is present there why a substitute? That is intelligence. Why should we accept a substitute when the original thing is present there?

Indian Guest: But Ramakrishna . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That's alright, taking Kṛṣṇa as incarnation or Bhagavad-gītā spoken by . . . we are dealing with Bhagavad-gītā and everyone is reading. Śrī Aurobindo also reads, writes on Bhagavad-gītā, Vivekananda speaks on Bhagavad-gītā. Any big man, Gandhi speaks on Bhagavad-gītā and everyone speaks in foreign countries, here also, why not take directly Bhagavad-gītā? What is the objection?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to do. That's it.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: But if you accept Bhagavad-gītā finish it take it sincerly and you begin. Don't make adulteration. That is our proposition. Especially putting forward that using the Bhagavad-gītā, take it as it is, you are benefited. If you are getting fresh milk from the cows why should you go to accept bottled milk? "The bottled milk . . . (indistinct) . . . will give you same milk," that's all right, "I am getting fresh milk from the cows directly." Which you will prefer?

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: That is another point.

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . the cows . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Then bottled milk is guaranteed that it is not taken from the diseased cow?

Audience: (laughter)

Prabhupāda: But this is your argument. Why not? I am talking of fresh milk.

Indian Guest: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: (laughter) Oh, then do you mean to say that bottled milk, is guaranteed that it is not from the diseased cow? That is no argument. There are two kinds of milk selling, one man is giving directly fresh milk and another one is selling bottled milk, which you will prefer? Sometimes we go purchase, to purchase medicine and the dealer says, "Here is a substitute it is as good as the . . . it is cheaper." Then he says: "Oh no, I don't want cheaper, give me that original." What do you think? That is intelligence. Because it is cheaper, it may be . . . (indistinct) . . . why should take the risk?. Then we take directly. That is the original. That is intelligence. When the original is available why I shall go to the substitute? That is our argument. (indistinct Hindi) . . . some original . . . (indistinct) . . . why you will go to substitute.

Study the original instruction from Kṛṣṇa and be benefited. That is our proposal. This is prasāda. . . . (indistinct)

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: For a layman one should . . . (indistinct) . . . unless he consults the doctor and one who knows that the ingredients of Anacin Aspro is the same. Cathline asprin and penadrixal then there is no harm taking asprin because maybe different.

Devotee: . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: Maybe they are. The ingredients are the same, I know what is aspro and what is anasine. I was chemist in my gṛhastha life. This is combination of Phenacetin asprin . . .

That is alright. The formula is different then rectifying, analyze it.

So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said: mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Ramakrishna says that any particle. The formulae is the same? Therefore we should not accept it. Kṛṣṇa says: mām ekaṁ! And Ramakrishna says any ekam is similar? Immediately the formula different. Is it not? Therefore how can I accept?

Indian Guest: (indistinct) . . . Vivekananda . . . (indistinct)

Prabhupāda Kṛṣṇa says, "mām" and Ramakrishna says: "Anything".

This is trying new. That he has business and now try. An old acquaintance I went to see that he personally told me that the Americans now are inquiring that, "You are taken so much, so much money for distributing to the poor and when we go to India we see that so many poor men are lying on the footpath. So how you are utilizing this money?" This question was asked by the Americans. That they conclude. Even in America there are many institutions, I know—bogus. They draw huge quantities of money from the foundations, As you were, just like our government for rehabilitation. So many things are going on. So in the name of India, poor India, suffering India so many.

Devotee: (indistinct) . . . foundation.

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can become a kept dog. What is called? Kept wolf?

Devotee: Kept wolf?

Prabhupāda: Yes. And it is advertised India is very poor, dying. Without American sons they are dying.

Devotee: Yes. (end)