740910 - Conversation - Vrndavana

Conversations by Date, 1974

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

740910GC-VRNDAVAN - September 10, 1974 - 46:10 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . within the fire, that will increase appetite. That is the psychology. Within the fire. Long, long years ago I did it, and I got very good appetite. And whatever nonsense it appears, it was very sweet.

Gurudāsa: Yes. I used to cook myself before meeting Yamunā.

Prabhupāda: Long, long ago?

Gurudāsa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And it was very nice?

Gurudāsa: It was nonsense, but I enjoyed it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. In India, amongst the Brahmins, this self cooking is very much . . . (indistinct)

Gurudāsa: I think it . . . (break) . . . prasādam in a very simple way. When you cook yourself, very simple.

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break)

Gurudāsa: . . . Rādhā-Dāmodara, did you cook yourself?

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Gurudāsa: Sarajini helped?

Prabhupāda: Sarajini simply washed the dishes, cleansed the room, set out the bedding. I was cooking.

Devotee (1): Soviet, Soviet land, I forget the exact title. And this one woman was a poet.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Devotee (1): She was a poet. In one article in the magazine. And she was . . . stated in her magazine how much she was sorry about her youth.

Prabhupāda: Youth.

Devotee (1): Yeah, that she was living very poorly, and her father had to work all day very hard as a goldsmith or tinsmith. And how she remembers her mother, that she was kept in such poor conditions that all her life she was very miserable. And she said that she was thinking that her mother might have been a great poet or a great scientist, but because of being oppressed by the higher class of Russia, that she could not develop, she simply was forced to live a very poor life. So I was able to understand that actually they are thinking that being oppressed by the higher classes, the lower class cannot properly develop their qualities.

Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot . . . you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer. Best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that, "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit that, "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent. As soon as it gets opportunity, it will bite you. So this tendency of artificial supremacy means material life. That is material life. So how can stop it? That separation is going on. You see in the spiritual life also. My Godbrothers, they are trying to suppress me. They are writing articles that in foreign countries these things . . . Ratha-yātrā is going on, so many temples have been . . . but they will never mention my name. They have suppressed. They want to . . . they write articles in such a way that Bon Mahārāja has done so much and they have done so much, and my name is not mentioned. You see? This spirit, "Oh, this man is going so high." Therefore Bhāgavata says nirmatsarāṇām. You know the meaning of nirmatsarāṇām?

Devotee (1): "Without envy"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The whole world is envious. Whole world. I am envious to you; you are envious of me. Then Bhāgavata is not meant for such envious person. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām (SB 1.1.2), those who are no more envious. How they will have a devotee envious? He loves Kṛṣṇa, and in relationship with Kṛṣṇa loves everyone. In that position, in that state, one will not try to suppress another. Otherwise, it . . . it is material life. To live at the cost of others, to suppress one, to take others' money and become rich. There is story in the Aesop's Fable that—you perhaps know it—that a dog took the flesh in his mouth and was crossing a river, and the shadow was in the water. So he thought there is another dog with the flesh, so he wanted to . . . he lost this, and that was a shadow. So he has got a flesh in his mouth, but he is animal, it was deluded that, "Another dog is carrying, so I shall take." Even in the cats and dogs, this tendency is there. Even the cats and dogs, they are also . . . how can you stop it? That will be not stopped'. They do not know.

Therefore, these theories, they are simply theories; they are not practical. They do not know what is the nature, how nature is working.

daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī

mama māyā duratyayā

mām eva ye prapadyante

māyām etāṁ taranti te

(BG 7.14)

This material nature can be avoided only by one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Otherwise, it is not possible. That example is given by Rāmānanda Rāya. He is touching naked woman, washing, dressing, touching, because he is not in the material world. That is the example given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In the material world, as soon as you think of woman, you will be . . . (indistinct) . . . in the spiritual world, you can touch even a naked, beautiful young woman, but you will be not . . . (indistinct) . . . that is the difference. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam.

vikrīḍitaṁ idaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ vraja-vadhūbhir

śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ

bhaktiṁ parāṁ (bhagavati) pratilabhya kāmaṁ

hṛd-rogam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

(SB 10.33.39)

Acireṇa dhīraḥ.

So advanced spiritual life means he becomes dhīra. He is no more disturbed by these material laws, and he becomes free of all lusty desires. This is spiritual perfection. So long you have got lusty desire, any position immediately you will try to same way snatch . . . (indistinct) . . . never satisfied. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam, that is the heart disease. It has been described as heart disease, lusty desire within the heart. Just like one who has got heart disease, he succumbs to that disease. Similarly, these . . . all these living entities, they have succumbed—what is called, succumb?—by lusty desire. By spiritual advancement means that heart disease is cured. Then you will be . . . then there is no more envious that, "I shall become superior. I shall become Kṛṣṇa. I shall become God." These are different symptoms of the same material disease. Somebody is thinking, "I shall become minister"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become leader"; somebody is thinking, "I shall become millionaire"; and at last, "I shall become God."

So even the so-called religionist, the heart disease is there. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi kāmī. Bhukti means ordinary karmīs, want to enjoy in this material world. And mukti, they also want, "I shall become God. I shall become one with God." That means "I shall become God." "One with God" means I'll become. Bhukti, mukti and siddhi. The yogīs, they want to show some magic power and gain. Just like this rascal is doing . . . (indistinct) . . . Pagala Baba. He has some yogic siddhi, so he has some . . . (indistinct) . . . otherwise what is the attraction? He is a most wretched man, always he's smoking, and he sleeps too long, no regulation of life. But people are attracted because they have been captivated that, "If I pay him one lakh, I shall get two lakhs." This is the propaganda. It is a . . . what is called, gambling. You put one rupee, and if you are successful, you will get four rupees. Siddhi. Because material world, they think, "If I get more money, then it is perfection." Everywhere, the whole world is thinking—nation-wise, individual—how to become. You will find in Europe the same propensity. Napoleon is trying to make Paris most opulent city in Europe. Or Englishmen, Gladstone and others, they are trying to make England, London, most opulent city in the world. Similarly, czar was very accomplished, accomplishment coming on one side, one side it is burst out into war. But you see, propensity. In Paris, the Place Concorde, so many beautiful buildings are there for museum, how they have conquered. In Rome, how they have conquered over Egypt, that pyramid they have brought. You have been in Rome?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen?

Devotee (2): They have a pyramid?

Prabhupāda: Yes, they have brought.

Devotee (1): It's a long obelisk that are there, brought from Egypt.

Prabhupāda: And in the British Museum you will find so many things plundered from here, plundered from here. In Rome, they are also maintaining such museum, and Paris I saw. This is their competition—wholesale plundering. Wholesale plundering.

Devotee (1): They take it . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: We take that it is a competition of the thieves. All rascals. That's not a civilization. And Mahābhārata history also we find so many demons. Just like . . . what is called, that asura, he simply plundered all the beautiful princesses.

Devotee (2): Bhaumāsura?

Prabhupāda: Bhaumāsura, something like that. They all of them became Kṛṣṇa's wife. They pray to Kṛṣṇa to be rescued from the hands of . . . then Kṛṣṇa rescued them, killed that Bhaumāsura, and excused them, then they were set free. Then their plea that, "We are set free, that's all right, but we cannot go home because we were kidnapped. So we shall not be married. Nobody will accept us." "Then what do you want?" "You become our husband." "All right." Kṛṣṇa becomes . . . (indistinct) . . . this is going on. Somebody is thinking of money, somebody is thinking of woman. These two things, money and woman, and whole struggle . . . (indistinct) . . . the Musselman nawabs, they used to keep . . . that one nawab in . . . they have got his quarters in Lucknow, he had 160 wives. Even in recent, you know this (name withheld)? His elder brother, (name withheld), practically he is the origin of the (name withheld) concern. So I was a guest of the . . . (indistinct) . . . and his wife. So he has got three wives—one Bengali wife, one U.P. wife, and his original wife being dead. He had three, four wives. And each wife's establishment, ten thousand rupees per month. So he is earning money and he is spending it. Earning money by black market, this way, that way, and his whole day's business is that go to some wife's house, remain there for some hours, then next wife, remain there for some hours, and he thinks, "I am king." Still he is living. He is of my age, old man. And each wife has got dozens of children. They're not his.

Devotee (2): (laughs) He cannot keep them satisfied.

Prabhupāda: How it is possible? He's an old man, and the wives are young. But they have got dozens of children, and he is trying to give each child five lakhs of rupees. That is to keep the wife. Everyone is trying that. Natural affection—beget children as many as you like, and then bring money and give them. That is . . . (indistinct) . . . this is that heart disease. How you can stop it? The rascals, they do not know it cannot be done. The lower class, still they are maintaining. Manager class, the worker class. That is going on. That higher and lower level must continue in the material world. You cannot stop it. Individually, nationally, communally.

Devotee (1): They have simply taken the sides of the low class against the upper class.

Prabhupāda: That is a sympathy. But you cannot change it. That is not possible. It is very good sympathy.

Devotee (1): This poet, in her poetry, her business was to try to create that sentiment.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) . . . grama-kuli. Jala-batta . . . (indistinct) . . . he is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascals' poetry, just like in your country: one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside) You should not show your feet this is the etiquette. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu, "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody . . . therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated.

Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave; artificially he thinks, "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam (BG 16.13). Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money . . . (indistinct) . . . lot of money, so who is better than me?" . . . (indistinct) . . . she has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology. The human psychology, animal psychology, that you have seen on the road: the sex. The animal does not require any education. The animal knows how to use sex; the man knows how to use sex. Where is the difference? Simply she is animal, she does the sex intercourse in a public street, animal . . . (indistinct) . . . an apartment, very nice apartment . . . (indistinct) . . . it is . . . fact is there. Either you are dog or a human being, the fact is. He also sleeps. He sleeps on the street anywhere, and we sleep in a nice apartment. He also eats, and the human being also eats. He eats the stool and we eat very nice, palatable foodstuff. That sleeping propensity is there, sex life is there, and he is also afraid of enemies. Where is the difference? Difference is that dog cannot be taught Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a man can be taught. That is the difference. So if man does not take advantage of this human life, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he is no better than a dog. He has no . . . (indistinct)

Devotee (1): So her poetry is just like the braying of the ass.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee (1): Her poetry was just like the braying of the ass.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Thinking, simply imagining that they shall be happy in this way. And accusing others. You cannot become happy in that way, then he will be accuse, "He is the cause. He is the impediment of my perfect happiness." Envious, the same enviousness.

Devotee (2): "Therefore let me eliminate you."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Same enviousness. Nirmatsaratā. Yayā sammohito jīva.

bhakti-yogena manasi

samyak praṇihite 'male

apaśyat puruṣaṁ pūrṇaṁ

māyāṁ ca tad-apāśrayam

(SB 1.7.4)

Yayā sammohito jīva. Vyāsadeva, by bhakti-yoga, he saw two things: the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the māyā on the back side. Which māyā? Māyā . . . Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, has many māyā features. Yayā sammohito jīva: that māyā by whom the whole material world and living entities are captivated. Yayā sammohito jīva, ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam (SB 1.7.5). And being captivated by this māyā, although he is pure spirit soul, he is thinking, "I am material. I am this body." Ātmānaṁ tri-guṇātmakam, manute, tat-kṛtaṁ cābhipadyate. In this way he thinks, and influenced by māyā he acts. This is the position he saw.

So this is called anartha, a position which is false. So, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). In order to deliver him from this illusory position, anartha upaśamaṁ bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje lokasya ajānataḥ. The whole world does not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, the most learned, he compiled the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. These things are there in the Bhāgavata. Same process. Vyāsadeva did for the benefit of the whole world, the Gosvāmīs did for the benefit of the whole world, and we are also trying to do the same thing.

anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād

bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje

lokasyājānato vidvāṁś

cakre sātvata-saṁhitām

(SB 1.7.6)

This is paramparā system. The Gosvāmīs also did it. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau, for the benefit of the whole world. We are pushing this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement for the benefit of the whole world, not that for our individual person. Vaiṣṇava, whatever he does, he does for the whole world, not for his person. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi-kāmī, they do for their own person. Karmīs, jñānīs, yogīs, for their personal benefit. That is also materialism. Vaiṣṇavism, lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau. Therefore, honored all over the three worlds, their activities and their person. Tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau. Therefore, they should be taken shelter of. Vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirmed, ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa, "One who has taken shelter of the six Gosvāmīs, I am his servant, nobody's servant."

ei chaya gosāñi yāra, tāra mui dāsa,

tāṅ' sabāra pada-reṇu mora pañca-grāsa

"I want to only eat the dust of the . . . (indistinct) . . . feet."

tāṅdera caraṇa sevi bhakta-sane vāsa

janame janame haya, ei abhilāṣa

Everything is there; simply we have to learn how to utilize it. Our Acyutānanda Swami has written that introduction, he's realizing . . . (indistinct) . . . this Kṛṣṇa consciousness means life of realization, self-realization, what I am. As Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself . . . (indistinct) . . . "What I am?" (pause) (break)

But if you remain diseased, then . . . just like I have got this disease, no appetite. First-class things are being made—nothing is giving me any taste. Disease is there. Therefore, if you want to taste what is God, then you first of all try to cure your disease. Our disease, material disease, is the lusty desire. Lusty desire is so strong that you will find it is existing amongst the so-called religionists performing religious rituals. But the same disease is there, that "If I execute the rituals, then I shall be promoted to the heavenly kingdom; I shall be . . . (indistinct) . . . this . . ." Similarly, the so-called monist philosophers, meditation, this, that, the disease is there, "I shall become God." Similarly, the yogīs, they can perform so many gymnastics, but the disease is there. The disease is cured when he is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-bhakta niṣkāma, ataeva 'śānta' (CC Madhya 19.149). By kṛṣṇa-bhakti, you cure the disease. Hṛd-rogaḥ kāmam apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ (SB 10.33.39). This is only . . . unless you have cured your material disease, you have to remain in this material world in any form and fulfill your material desire. The ant is also trying, and Lord Brahmā is also trying. Hṛd-rogam. (break) He cannot sit down peacefully. At any moment, this . . . (indistinct) . . . created . . . (indistinct) . . . little. And even he is thinking . . . (indistinct) . . . Padaṁ padaṁ vipadām. Material world means in every step there is danger. Every step. However you step . . . (end)