770119 - Conversation A - Bhuvanesvara

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770119R1-BHUVANESVARA - January 19, 1977 - 46:20 Minutes

Prabhupāda: . . . available plots.

Gargamuni: Yes, there's those two plots on that main . . . now, there's many broken buildings there. Many. I drove all around. But the plots are too small.

Rāmeśvara: You'd have to buy several of them together.

Gargamuni: Yes. And also they're out of the city. They're more out of reach. They're not in that . . . that one area is the best area. There's a two-lane road—you know, traffic going one way and traffic going another way, with an island in the center.

Rāmeśvara: And all the hotels are there.

Gargamuni: And all the hotels are there, so all the top people are there.

Rāmeśvara: It sounds like Bombay.

Gargamuni: And that Purī hotel was packed up with foreigners and with local people very nicely dressed. And this plot is just near the Purī hotel. So it's a nice area, and the breeze is wonderful, very nice breeze from the ocean. So if we build a nice multi-story, that breeze will be very healthy.

Prabhupāda: So . . .

Gargamuni: So I have to leave here tomorrow morning at 8:30 and meet with the man at around 9:30, 10:00, and he'll give me all the names and addresses, and he'll show me some other plots. Then, perhaps, if maybe you would like to see it the following day, we can drive there and show you the plot as soon as I get more information.

Rāmeśvara: Would you like to do that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Hari-śauri: Have you been to Purī for a long time?

Prabhupāda: Oh, several times.

Hari-śauri: I mean in recent years, or . . .

Prabhupāda: No. Recently I'm not going because my disciples are not allowed. I don't wish to go.

Gargamuni: I was here during Durgā-pūjā, and there were thousands of people entering that temple. Thousands. I mean . . . there was just a tide all day long. So I know if we have a temple . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Last I went to see, before going to USA, in 1958.

Rāmeśvara: Almost twenty years.

Prabhupāda: Yes. 1958, yes. After that, I had no chance of going.

Rāmeśvara: There's no doubt that if we build a temple there it must be very, very magnificent.

Prabhupāda: Because after some years I went to USA, in 1966, er, '65. 1958 or '59, I went there. For four, five years, naturally. And after going to USA there was no chance.

Gargamuni: In front of the temple, though, is so many beggars. You cannot walk peacefully. In front of the temple so many beggars, and no one is giving . . .

Prabhupāda: In 1920 I came to Bhuvaneśvara. So I was thronged with so many beggars. So at that time I promised, "If I bring at least"—in those days—"more than one thousand rupees to distribute to the beggars, then I shall come. I'll not come." (laughs) I thought like that. Means whatever money I had I will distribute. Still, they are thronging, the beggars. So much beggars have now come. Beggars. Very poor country.

Gargamuni: We could have very big prasādam distribution there, in Purī. Right on the beach we could set up a whole prasādam distribution.

Prabhupāda: If you arrange for prasāda distribution, you become very popular.

Rāmeśvara: None of the tourists who are Westerners ever takes Jagannātha prasādam, do they?

Prabhupāda: No, if there is good prasādam, they'll take.

Gargamuni: Tourists . . . we see them in the sweet shops, but I don't think they know the value . . .

Prabhupāda: If they understand they are very palatable.

Gargamuni: But that beachfront, if we're on there, we can use that beach as a place to feed thousands of people.

Rāmeśvara: Plus all the pilgrims that come to Purī for the temple festivals, they'll also come to our temple if it is very big.

Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally.

Rāmeśvara: But what style will it be? Different style.

Prabhupāda: Uh?

Rāmeśvara: It will be a different style of architecture.

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana? That will be new introduction here.

Hari-śauri: Vṛndāvana's not a very big temple.

Prabhupāda: Not big, but . . . Bombay.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's the same, along the same lines at least.

Gargamuni: Shouldn't it be higher than the Purī temple, or less?

Rāmeśvara: We can make it higher for not too much extra cost. The height is not that expensive. I was talking . . .

Gargamuni: Height should be . . . because you can see Purī temple from the road ten miles away.

Rāmeśvara: It would be suitable, appropriate, if this temple was taller.

Prabhupāda: That can be done.

Gargamuni: 'Cause then it could be seen from miles away.

Hari-śauri: Bombay temple was restricted for height. Otherwise it was going to be higher.

Gargamuni: Because along the road, say about ten kilometers, they have a sign, "Look to your right, and you will see Purī in your sight." They have a sign, like a poem.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Gargamuni: Along the road. They say: "Look to your right, and you will see Lord Jagannātha temple in your sight." And sure enough, you see, coming up, about ten miles out of the city, that temple. So similarly, if we have a very high temple it can be seen.

Rāmeśvara: "Look to your left." (chuckling) This is very exciting, this idea of building in Purī. And Prabhupāda said the main Deities would be Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma.

Hari-śauri: If we build in Purī, will we have Jagannātha?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Jagannātha, Nitāi-Gaura, Guru-Gaurāṅga . . .

Rāmeśvara: And Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, like Vṛndāvana.

Rāmeśvara: That will also be very wonderful, to have Lord Gaurāṅga on the altar.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's very important now, Lord Caitanya.

Rāmeśvara: Very big Deities. That would be good if there were big Gaura-Nitāi Deities.

Gargamuni: Yes, there should be huge Deities.

Hari-śauri: Like in Hyderabad. We have those very big Deities there, five feet or something.

Prabhupāda: Five feet? Deity, we can get it done here also. But there is no white stone. Stone is available here.

Gargamuni: Yes, stone they have, but no marble.

Prabhupāda: Anything made of iron corrodes.

Gargamuni: Iron. Yes. We have to be very careful of the type materials that we use. Also near the sea, would that . . . I think on cement that has some effect. We'd have to make the temple out of stone or marble.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: So that it will last . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: . . . many centuries. Hundreds of years.

Gargamuni: Yes. Because I have seen all of the cement buildings, within five or ten years it's finished. You have to put a new plastering. So I think we have to use either stone or marble.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: White marble.

Rāmeśvara: Phew! That's expensive.

Hari-śauri: Stone is not so bad.

Rāmeśvara: If you have stone and you cover it with marble.

Gargamuni: Well, it depends what type of stone. They have that red stone in Rajasthan, like in Vṛndāvana. You've seen that red stone? Very nice. They're using that in . . . I saw a big hotel in Bombay, they have used that stone, very beautiful, that red stone that you see in Vṛndāvana.

Prabhupāda: Red stone. That is very durable.

Gargamuni: Yes. That Kesi-ghāṭa, that is made of that red stone.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: They're using it, I saw, in one hotel on the front in Bombay. Very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Gargamuni: In Bombay. I saw while we were driving in a taxi downtown. It's a new hotel, and they had that red stone. It's the first time I saw it in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. The red stone is very durable.

Gargamuni: But the building . . . whatever building we build would require much maintenance, due to the fact that it's near the ocean. Like I've noticed fans, they rust when they're near the ocean. So they probably would have to be painted once a year. We'd have to paint at least once a year—paint everything.

Prabhupāda: Anything made of iron will corrode.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore this reinforced concrete is not good.

Gargamuni: No. Unless it is . . . we put marble over it. Then it's all right.

Prabhupāda: Even bricks.

Gargamuni: Yes, bricks also fade away. I have seen the bricks have become so small on those buildings, the ones . . . the buildings that are broken down. Those buildings can't be more than twenty or thirty years old.

Prabhupāda: Only?

Gargamuni: Yes. I saw one . . . in Gopalpur I saw one built in 1938 called Blue Haven, and there was nothing left of it. It just . . . the whole thing just corroded away. There was just a few things left. And the sign, the marble sign, said 1938.

Prabhupāda: 1930 is very recent.

Gargamuni: So that's a matter of thirty, forty years. There was nothing left of the cement, and the bricks were finished. So we'd have to take careful advice of making it out of stone.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Stone or marble.

Prabhupāda: In Bhuvaneśvara you can have stone.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: To build such a big temple you'll need many devotees.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes.

Rāmeśvara: Pūjārīs, cooks, collectors, Life Members.

Gargamuni: It would be a very big project.

Rāmeśvara: You'd need at least fifty devotees. So it's going to take a little while to get . . .

Prabhupāda: Big temple means at least fifty men.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Gargamuni: But I know there'll be no problem getting people there. It's real nice.

Rāmeśvara: The thing is if we start off, gradually, as the construction is going on, if there's a group of people that are working there, maybe some local people will join us too.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. We'll get local men to join.

Rāmeśvara: So who will make that their . . .? That's the real question. Who will sit there?

Gargamuni: I'll stay. I'll stay. It's important project. It's comfortable also. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: Coconut tree can grow.

Gargamuni: Yes. And I think cashew. These cashews, they also grow.

Prabhupāda: Cashew. And jhao.

Gargamuni: What is jhao?

Prabhupāda: What is called, jhao? This fiberlike bricks. That is grown very . . .

Hari-śauri: Some kind of a fruit?

Prabhupāda: No fruit. Evergreen. It is called evergreen.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. I have seen them growing on the beach there.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Yes. These pine trees like evergreen tree.

Prabhupāda: Yes, evergreen.

Gargamuni: I saw some there.

Prabhupāda: That is grown. And that tree is very costly here in India.

Gargamuni: Cashews are very costly.

Prabhupāda: When I was going to your country, at Cochin they loaded in the ship cashews, black pepper and lobster, big, big cases. There are many American firms. They are export business. Lobster is very favorite food in USA. Although it is rotten, (laughs) still, they take it.

Gargamuni: My father used to take at least once a week.

Prabhupāda: Lobster juice.

Gargamuni: Lobster and everything, the juice . . . he used to eat many lobster, King lobster.

Rāmeśvara: That's a big business. In the state of Maine, that is one of their main sources of income, lobster. Famous, Maine . . . that state . . .

Prabhupāda: They get lobster locally or . . .

Rāmeśvara: They fish. The waters . . .

Gargamuni: They farm them. It's become like farming. They raise them in scientific way now.

Prabhupāda: Like they grow chickens.

Gargamuni: Yes. It's all scientific.

Rāmeśvara: And they sell all over America.

Gargamuni: They artificially fatten them up.

Prabhupāda: For fish-eater, lobster is very favorite.

Gargamuni: Yes. With butter.

Prabhupāda: Here. Here in India.

Gargamuni: They use with butter.

Prabhupāda: Butter? But it has butter, fish.

Gargamuni: No, but they dip in butter. That's how my . . . they used to serve. My father, he used to take like that. And lemon, lemon juice. So also, Prabhupāda, when I was in Dacca . . . I think I told you that when I was there they were willing to sign over that land to our society. It's a very nice plot.

Prabhupāda: Gauḍīya Matha. Gauḍīya Matha.

Gargamuni: Yes. Because no one is maintaining, and he has no followers, and he knows, when he dies then there's nothing. So he was interested. And not only him, but his supporters were also pushing him to sign it over, and they had agreed. But then the war broke out, and I left, and I think a lot of them have been killed who were his main finance backers. He had some lawyers and doctors who were donating, but I think they have all been killed. So now he has no one. So recently some of our men have gone to Dacca for visa to come back, and he's still interested, more so now.

Prabhupāda: He's not killed. (laughs)

Gargamuni: No. He survived.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Long life.

Gargamuni: Yes. He's very old. I think he's eighty, eighty-five or something. So I have to leave the country by the thirtieth 'cause my visa is finished. So I was thinking that I should go to Dacca for a few days and meet him again and see about this land, and also whether we can get the society registered in Bangladesh.

Prabhupāda: That you can do.

Gargamuni: Yes, well, a Muslim state. But maybe he can help us. And I want to see if he's really serious or whether he'll . . . you know . . .

Prabhupāda: He was under whose control?

Gargamuni: Tīrtha Mahārāja. But they never gave him anything. They never gave him men; they never gave him money—nothing.

Rāmeśvara: Not even letters.

Gargamuni: No. They never even wrote him. They didn't care.

Rāmeśvara: Bhavānanda Mahārāja told me that for ten years . . .

Gargamuni: And there's still a foundation. From 1948 there is a foundation there of a building which was started in 1947 or '48. And I was very surprised, because the building has a frame of steel girders, not cement but steel, big steel girder. It has a frame. I think it's about a two-story building, say half the size of Māyāpur building, half the size. And the frame is still there. I asked Pañcaratna, who went there, if it was still there or whether it was blown away by the war. He said: "No, it is still there." So there's already a building. There's a stone wall around the property. I think it's around, maybe, about three-quarters to an acre. But it's in the heart of the city. It's in a good area, a very populated area, but very nice area also.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So I thought I would go there and see and then come back, get a new visa and then return and give a report.

Prabhupāda: So it will be nice. That was started by my Guru Mahārāja. We have to take.

Gargamuni: Yes. Because after he goes, there's nothing.

Prabhupāda: Tīrtha Mahārāja was planning to exchange that property with a Calcutta Muhammadan, that he would give him that property, and this Muhammadan would give him this property, his property. I checked it. I approached the donor, the Bali-hatti zamindar, that "You donated this temple, and it is going to be in the hands of Muhammadan. Do you like it?" So he said: "No, I don't like it." I said: "Make it inquiry." He inquired, and he immediately wrote Tīrtha Mahārāja that, "You are contemplating. This we do not approve. We are the donor." So Tīrtha Mahārāja replied him that "It is no more in the hands of the donor. I am the trustee. Whatever I like, I can do."

Gargamuni: Ruthless.

Prabhupāda: Then he . . . there was very strong correspondence, and Tīrtha Mahārāja could not dare to do it. Otherwise he arranged like that, to give the temple to a Muhammadan and accept a Calcutta property which belonged to the Muhammadan.

Gargamuni: So when he could not do that, he just left it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He had no spiritual idea. Simply he wanted to exploit the property. That's all.

Gargamuni: Yes. So maybe we can save that place.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If we can do, it will be a great service.

Gargamuni: 'Cause still there is fifteen million Hindus in Bangladesh.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: When I was there, there were many doctors and lawyers, and I think all of them have been murdered.

Prabhupāda: Acchā.

Gargamuni: I think the only Hindus that are left are the poor people. But while I was there the teachers and the lawyers—the most prominent lawyer was Hindu—doctors, all educated men . . .

Prabhupāda: Dead.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see the policy.

Gargamuni: But they, I think, annihilated all of the . . . anyone who had any education. Just like that boy, he was translating your books? They shot him in front of firing squad. One boy. I printed one book there in Bengali. I think three thousand copies: The Peace Formula and Who is Crazy, I think. It was about fifteen pages. They gave me some donation. Even the Gopāla . . . his name was Gopāla Kṛṣṇa brahmacārī. He also gave me from his pocket. And I printed . . . we had it translated in Bengali, but then . . .

Prabhupāda: He was killed?

Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. He was shot in . . . not him, but this other brahmacārī, young boy, very nice boy. His name was Karuṇāmayī.

Rāmeśvara: For translating it they did it.

Gargamuni: Yes, for translating. They wanted to annihilate anyone who had any literary talent. That was their idea. Or anyone who had any education. So that after they left the country there wouldn't be anything. Because they knew they had to leave one day because of the revolutionary spirit. So they thought, "Let us ravage the whole country and then leave." And that's what they did. Their main attack was the university. When I was there that was their first attack, 'cause that university was a very old one and . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, Dacca University next to Calcutta University. Just see how human beings are becoming less than ferocious animals.

Gargamuni: Even one man, he was making a plaque in your name in thankfulness for preaching this Vaiṣṇava dharma. He was making a wooden plaque, and he was a doctor of physics at the university. And one night they came in and shot him and his whole family, this man. He was very helpful to us while we were there.

Prabhupāda: Only fault that he was making some . . .

Gargamuni: No, his fault is that he had some education. Anyone who was doing anything. This one boy who was translating your books, he was a very educated person. He was about thirty years old.

Prabhupāda: Hindu.

Gargamuni: Hindu. Yes. He was brahmacārī there at the āśrama. He was the chief pūjārī. But he joined us. We toured a few areas, and he came with us and arranged for everything. And he joined us, and he was translating.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Now take this.

Gargamuni: And we printed the book. I saw it. But then the war broke out a few days after it was ready, so I had to leave all the copies there. When I go there I will try and find it. Maybe it is still there. We spent about five hundred rupees. Five, six hundred rupees.

Prabhupāda: What Pakistan has gained by this separation? Actually they have not gained.

Gargamuni: By the separation.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Of Bangladesh?

Prabhupāda: No.

Gargamuni: Or of India?

Prabhupāda: India.

Gargamuni: Oh, they haven't gained anything.

Prabhupāda: Karachi is finished. Nobody goes there.

Gargamuni: No. It's a desert. I have been there. It's horrible place.

Prabhupāda: When you went there?

Gargamuni: When I came from Dacca there was only one flight a day because of the war. They could not overfly India, so there was one flight a day from Dacca to Ceylon to Karachi.

Prabhupāda: Oh, long distance.

Gargamuni: Yes. Very long flight. So I was number 15,000 on the list. Everybody camped out at the airport. Because of the war, everyone wanted to leave. So there was a line of 15,000 people. They gave me my number; I was 15,000. So we waited at the airport. I said: "I can't wait here," because the bombs were dropping and the tanks were coming and the troops were coming and . . . I said: "I gotta get out of here." So I spoke with the commander, and I played him a tape of kīrtana. I had a tape, and they . . . all the officers, they were Mussulmen from Pakistan, and they started clapping, "Oh, kīrtana," you know. So I asked him, "Could you allow me to go on board before all the others? There's no use in us staying here. Who knows what will happen? We are foreigners." We were dressed as sādhus also. So he allowed us to go on in front of everyone. So we managed to leave.

Prabhupāda: What was the condition at that time, general, during the war?

Gargamuni: Where? In Dacca?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: There was starvation immediately. There was no food in the whole city. I was living on cāpāṭis. That's all we had. Course, we were very nervous, so we couldn't eat so much anyway because there was so much going on in the city—bombings, firing.

Prabhupāda: And general public?

Gargamuni: And most of the army—they imported the army from Pakistan—these men were six feet tall. These were . . . they have a certain name.

Prabhupāda: Jatha? No.

Gargamuni: Jatha? No. Rathan or something.

Prabhupāda: Pathan. Pathan.

Gargamuni: Yes. Very huge men.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So in comparison to the Bengali, they were very small. So they were very fearful of these fighters. The whole Pakistani army was made of these Pathans.

Prabhupāda: Pathans.

Gargamuni: Very huge men, very tall.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So there was great fear in the hearts of the people 'cause they're very small. So, er . . . and all of the equipment was imported from America, all the tanks, the jeeps, all the planes and—all American

Prabhupāda: Why American patronize Pakistan?

Gargamuni: Because . . . against Russia. India is with Russia. And China . . . also the Pakistanis . . . when I was in Pakistan, they have great love for the Chinese people. When I was there it was more than the Americans. They liked the Chinese more than the Americans. 'Cause I went to the Karachi University 'cause I thought we could start some preaching there. So I met the professor of philosophy, and he had agreed that we could give some lecture, but not on Indian culture but on yoga or something. So the students there were very much . . . they liked the Chinese. They were always talking, "Oh, China." So China is also opposed to Russia. So in this way the sides were taken. But it's a hellish place there. It's all sand.

Prabhupāda: Karachi.

Gargamuni: Yes. Very hot. Phew. We used to get our fruit . . . there was no place where we could eat, so we used to buy fruit and nuts at the Empress Market, very big market.

Prabhupāda: Dacca.

Gargamuni: No, in Karachi. A very huge market. They have, very good, these grapefruits. They're very sweet there.

Prabhupāda: Grape.

Gargamuni: Grapefruit. You know, like orange?

Prabhupāda: Oh, ah.

Gargamuni: But very sweet-tasting.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yellowish, or greenish?

Gargamuni: No. They're pinkish inside, pink color. Yellow skin but pink inside and very sweet.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmuja. And some sweet scent also.

Gargamuni: Yes. They're very nice. We ate so many of them.

Hari-śauri: (preaching to someone in background) Because He's the Supreme Person. You're worshiping Indira Gandhi, or in America they're worshiping Nixon or Ford. In Britain they're worshiping someone else. Everyone is worshiping someone who is better than him. You may go to work and worship your boss because he'll give you a better paycheck.

Prabhupāda: That is preaching. (chuckling with devotees)

Gargamuni: I read in the paper, they're having elections in March.

Prabhupāda: Karachi?

Gargamuni: No, here, here in India. They're holding election. Because of the emergency, they had banned the election.

Rāmeśvara: In Bengal there'll be an election?

Gargamuni: No, all over India, for the Lok Sabha, for the Parliament.

Rāmeśvara: So Tarun Kanti will be up for election?

Gargamuni: No. That's something else. This is for the Parliament.

Rāmeśvara: So Indira's not being up for election.

Gargamuni: No.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Rāmeśvara: Just the Parliament members, that's all. Not the ministers.

Prabhupāda: No, Indira . . . she must be Parliament member.

Gargamuni: Yes, but I don't think she's affected. I didn't read, I just saw on the man's desk. I just saw the elections to be held.

Rāmeśvara: She's from Allahabad?

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: So she's Parliament. Maybe for her also.

Rāmeśvara: It'll be fixed.

Gargamuni: So, Prabhupāda, I'll have to leave on the 25th from here 'cause I could only get a 28-day visa from Kathmandu. So I have to leave the country by the 30th. So I'll go to Dacca and check everything out, then return and give report, and we can decide what we should do.

Prabhupāda: If we can get, we shall take it.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And you can start a center there. That will be very good. And when they see that Americans are taking, the Muhammadans will be attracted.

Gargamuni: Yes. No, I found them . . . they weren't so fanatic. The Bengali Mussulmans are not like the others. They're very nice.

Prabhupāda: Educated.

Gargamuni: Well, I spoke with students.

Prabhupāda: Oh. They're educated.

Gargamuni: Yes. And most of the business and industry is in the hands of the Mussulmans, so . . . but they . . . we walked around like this, and there was no trouble—at that time.

Prabhupāda: They have got a Bengali language.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. They speak Bengali.

Prabhupāda: No, they kept Bengali language state language.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So naturally . . .

Gargamuni: I was thinking also that Śatadhanya Mahārāja, he has learned Bengali. So I was thinking that he may also go with me because he knows Bengali.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Gargamuni: He speaks it, and he is not so much engaged.

Prabhupāda: Take some Gītār Gān.

Gargamuni: Yes, I'm going to take. I was thinking if my vans get kicked out of the country because of the customs, that we would go to Bangladesh and take trunkloads of Gītār Gāns and go to Dacca and Chittagong and some of the big cities.

Prabhupāda: Bangladesh. It will be great service.

Gargamuni: Yes.

Hari-śauri: There's a few people asking for darśana.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: There's one boy we've been preaching to. He's a student in sociology. And a few others.

Prabhupāda: Let him come. No "logy" before Kṛṣṇa conscious. All "logy" finished.

Rāmeśvara: (aside) Hari-śauri, I turned this off. You going to stay here, Hari-śauri? So I should take it out? Leave it?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) You belong to Orissa.

Indian man (1): Right. Bhuvaneśvara.

Prabhupāda: Bhuvaneśvara.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is your philosophy?

Indian man (1): Sir, we are coming just to have a darśana of you. (Prabhupāda chuckles)

Hari-śauri: This young man here is a student. He's studying for his M.A. in sociology. He's been asking . . . he has a few questions.

Prabhupāda: Yes?

Hari-śauri: If you have some question, you can ask.

Prabhupāda: You are a student.

Indian man (1): (indistinct) . . . Sir, from the very beginning, I am attached to the society, and through these attached . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is social animal. "Society, friendship and love." They say "divinely bestowed upon man." So because we are strongly in misunderstanding our identification, we take this society as divinely. But we have got this society that is not on the bodily conception. Otherwise, these European, Americans, Africans, Canadians, they would not have come together. This is a different platform. It is a society, but on the spiritual platform.

Indian man (1): Sir, may I know the meaning of the divine name Hare Kṛṣṇa and Hare Rāma? The real meaning of the divine name Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma?

Prabhupāda: Meaning is very simple. The Hare, it is addressing, sambodhana. Just like we ask somebody, "Hello, Mr. such and such." It is like that, Harā. Harā is the energy of the Supreme Lord. Supreme Lord is Hari, and Harā is the energy, potency. So we are addressing harā—"Hare." And "Kṛṣṇa," that is also addressing Nara, Kṛṣṇa. So we are praying: "O the energy of the Lord, O Your Lordship, kindly engage us in Your service." This is . . .

Indian man (1): So what is the meaning of Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is note of address: "O Kṛṣṇa and O Kṛṣṇa's energy, please engage me in Your service." Because we are in service, every one of us. What you are doing?

Indian man (1): Sir, I am service . . . (indistinct) . . . I am a government servant.

Prabhupāda: So you are servant. And any one of you . . .

Indian man (2): I am also a servant.

Prabhupāda: So everyone is servant.

Indian man (1): No, sir, servant is always serving in the government . . .

Prabhupāda: So they are servant. So every one of us is a servant. But this service has not pleased us. Therefore we are seeking other service—the service of the Supreme.

Indian man (1): Sir, what is the way to serve the Supreme?

Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Just like a servant, when he is not pleased somehow or other with the master, he seeks another service. Is it not?

Indian man (1): Right.

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the service in this material world will never please us, neither the master. Take for example Gandhi. He gave so much service to his country, to his countrymen, but what was the result? He was shot dead. So who can please more than Gandhi? So we should take lesson from this, that if you are engaged in rendering service to the material world, neither you'll be happy nor the master will be happy. It is simply waste of time.

Indian man (2): Waste of time.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (2): No, those who are fighting for the country . . .

Prabhupāda: Eh! Any way, any way, material service is simply waste of time.

Guest (1): Sir, actually what is spiritual service?

Prabhupāda: Spiritual service—to render service to Kṛṣṇa as Kṛṣṇa says: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Then you'll be happy.

Indian man (2): No, but those who are freedom fighters, they are actually on the wrong path? Freedom fighters.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Everyone who is not serving Kṛṣṇa, he is in the wrong path.

Indian man (2): But Kṛṣṇa means . . . who is He? Is He a personal or impersonal?

Prabhupāda: Person. Service means person.

Indian man (2): Person?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you are person, I am person, how I can serve you or how you can accept service?

Indian man (2): Means what is God and Kṛṣṇa? Is there any difference?

Prabhupāda: God is person. That I am saying.

Indian man (2): God is person?

Prabhupāda: Yes, like you, as you are talking with me, I am talking with you.

Guest (1): Sir, He is not infinite.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That you have to understand, that although He is person, He is infinite. That you have to understand. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Indian man (2): Sir, in Bhagavad-gītā . . .

Prabhupāda: He! One man. If you argue in that way, many people, then there will be no answer. You should know the etiquette. How can I answer so many person at a time? So this infinite is explained, infiniteness. Kṛṣṇa says, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am infinitely everywhere." Māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtina (BG 9.4). Just like here in this room, do you think there is no government in this room? Do you think there is no government within this room?

Indian man (1): Yes, I think there is some government.

Prabhupāda: There is. But that . . . it is not . . . there is no representative of government, but still, we are under the government. This is avyakta. The government is there, but it doesn't mean that the prime minister or the president is there. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, but He says, māyā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagat avyakta-mūrtina—unmanifest . . . (break) (end)