770219 - Conversation B - Mayapur

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 Listen to a 'Nectar Drop' created from this lecture

770219R2-MAYAPUR - February 19, 1977 - 50:38 Minutes

Ādi-keśava: . . . about the handling of this case in New York. We've been talking a lot about the general issues, but there's some specific points. Some are very practical, have come up. For instance . . .

Prabhupāda: If you feel alone, you take some other with you whom you like.

Ādi-keśava: Excuse me?

Prabhupāda: If you are feeling alone, you must take somebody else, one or two, with you.

Ādi-keśava: I always have Tripurāri Swami with me.

Prabhupāda: Gosvāmī is . . . that's all right.

Ādi-keśava: We're together a lot. But one thing is, when we are fighting this case, there's a lot of legal expense, because although we are fighting the atheists in the courtroom, the lawyers who are working for us, they are also atheists, but they are the best materially. Our one lawyer, for instance, in New York, he is considered one of the best lawyers in the country. But he is charging us so much money, and although we do as much work as we can ourselves . . .

Prabhupāda: Why we appoint lawyer?

Ādi-keśava: Well, in the court there are certain things that only the lawyer may argue. We're not allowed to argue ourselves. Now, one thing is that Hari-śauri has just told me that Guru-kṛpā Mahārāja has one man on his party who was a lawyer, a member of the bar in Australia. So I'm thinking to ask Guru-kṛpā Mahārāja if he can come with us to New York and get admitted to the bar in New York and become our attorney.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. It will be very nice.

Ādi-keśava: Because otherwise it is costing so much money.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately.

Ādi-keśava: One other thing that is sometimes arising is that when we are arguing the case in the court . . .

Prabhupāda: Why not get help from some Indian lawyer?

Ādi-keśava: Some are willing to help us. This one man Din Agnihotri from Southern University Law School, he helped us make the basis of the case. But most of the Indian lawyers, they will not help us.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Ādi-keśava: They are afraid of their own status. They are worried that . . . because they work in those courts every day, and this is an unpopular issue, so they are afraid, because their position is not so secure. So they will not help us in that way. They will come and talk to me and give some advice, but they don't want their name in the courtroom. So sometimes this is difficult, because we need expert lawyers, but these lawyers are atheists, so sometimes they argue with me. They say: "Why are you always trying to preach in the court when we are trying to present your case?" I said: "That is my business, and I am paying you." So sometimes they are arguing, "No, if you want to win this case, then we have to argue in this way." Just like when we were . . . they were questioning on the stand, and our one devotee was reading Bhagavad-gītā for the answers, and they were objecting, our lawyers, saying: "No, we shouldn't do this." But I was saying: "No, this is the way that they will see that we are genuine." In the end it proved it was right. The judge respected that.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we must argue from our books. Therefore I say without any lawyer. Keep one lawyer to present, but our arguments should be from the books.

Ādi-keśava: Right. Another thing is that this group, they are very organized.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They have got money.

Ādi-keśava: They have big money. I can show you in this book. We made one chart of their organization.

Hari-śauri: Page fifteen, seventeen.

Ādi-keśava: It shows that they have a big organization. See, they have all these committees. And there's a lot of money involved. There are a lot of people with big money. Starting at the top, they've made a national organization. I know all these men. I've spoken to all these people. They're big demons, but they have a lot of money, so they're fighting us in all the different courts. But so far they have not taken it beyond the lower courts. When we take it to the higher courts we always win. For instance, just before I left, we took two cases to the Federal Court. Immediately we won. In one day they gave us the case. My case is in a very low court. If it goes to a high court we will win. So we are wanting to do this, but that means again that if we were to do it, only certain lawyers can enter into the Federal Court. Not just any lawyer can argue there, because you have to have some . . .

Prabhupāda: So you have to pay. What can be done?

Ādi-keśava: So if you're willing to do that, I will do it.

Prabhupāda: Hmm.

Ādi-keśava: I'm hoping that if we can organize some legal office for the Society, then we will be able to do this more effectively.

Prabhupāda: What is this?

Ādi-keśava: This is that book we made for the conference, the ACLU conference in New York.

Prabhupāda: Who he is?

Ādi-keśava: He is one of the guṇḍās.

Hari-śauri: In England, this one.

Ādi-keśava: No, he's in . . .

Hari-śauri: No, in Ipswich.

Ādi-keśava: Ipswich, Massachusetts.

Hari-śauri: Oh, sorry. I thought . . .

Ādi-keśava: He is in . . . this is one of the men who was used to hold a devotee during a deprogramming, a big . . . I know this man personally. You see, already we have sometimes come to blows with them. We had one incident where a devotee was being held captive, and I went with some devotees in the middle of the night, and we had some fighting. The police stopped us. They took me away and beat me and threw me in the bushes, and then they kept the boy there, the devotee. He got away later. But men like this we have fought with several times. When it comes to these questions, I wanted to know, when there is sometimes some violence . . .

Prabhupāda: What can be done? Violence. Beat him.

Ādi-keśava: This book gives documentation of so many cases where they have used violence against our devotees. These are also . . .

Hari-śauri: Hired men. Guṇḍās.

Ādi-keśava: They're hired men. This is the case of one of their men who was later held for murder of another man. He was used in a deprogramming, and then later on, some months later, he murdered some man and went to jail for it. So they're very serious. It's not just philosophical arguments. There's a list here in this book we've made of the devotees in our movement who've been taken. This list is very recent, by temple. You can see in practically every temple they have taken some devotees, some who are . . . most of them are back in our movement, but some who are not. But now their tactic is this legal thing. Now they get this legal conservatorship, and then even we go and save the devotee, we take them back, the police can come and arrest us. So in these cases we are finding that the only thing to do is sometimes to go and physically drag them away and hide them until the term of this thing is up. Another thing is we are giving, as we said yesterday, some asylum in other countries, like with Canada. And one thing is that the Indian government told me that they would give me asylum. The Ambassador told me that if I were to be held, the Indian government would give me asylum.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Ādi-keśava: So we were thinking that, and Bhavānanda Mahārāja and I were just speaking. He said one boy was in Calcutta at the visa office, and he was talking about all this business. And he said at the visa office they also said: "Well, we could arrange to give you asylum." Just like Acyutānanda got, remember, for his draft.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: So I was wondering if you think this is a good tactic.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, very good tactic.

Ādi-keśava: Because it makes big news.

Prabhupāda: If they give asylum in India, that is very good.

Hari-śauri: That means they can stay here, and do their devotional . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: . . . service, and we need men here anyway.

Prabhupāda: It is very good.

Ādi-keśava: Because they . . . it is also good tactic. It makes the government not want this to happen. They don't . . . it makes them look bad that someone has to get political asylum from America.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: Because they pride themselves on freedom.

Prabhupāda: They get prestigious loss, loss of prestige.

Ādi-keśava: Yes. When this one girl Kulaja . . . she is now in Toronto, and she got . . .

Prabhupāda: And Indian government will be convinced that we are not CIA.

Hari-śauri: Yes. If we come ask for asylum, then it's obvious.

Prabhupāda: Yes that, "Americans, they are taking refuge in our law." Do it very nice. Immediately do it.

Ādi-keśava: So I will investigate this in America. I think before I go back, I'm going to go see some people in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: This Home Member can help in Delhi.

Hari-śauri: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa can give you all the names.

Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, with Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, Home Member will be very glad. He's in sympathy.

Ādi-keśava: I can, perhaps, stop in Delhi . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: . . . before I go back.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: I also have met some men there now.

Prabhupāda: (aside) Give me.

Ādi-keśava: Sometimes . . . this is a book that is documenting all of their activity. One other thing is that sometimes when they are attacking us there is a good opportunity for us to differentiate ourselves, distinguish ourselves from other religions. For instance, this World Fellowship of Religions held a press conference at the United Nations. Now when they backed us, they would not back the Unification Church or the, you know, these Christians groups, because they don't like them. In general, the scholars, they favor our group. They don't favor the other groups. They don't like them. They think they are cheaters, and there has been some proof in the press. One problem is, for instance, this Mr. Moon, his . . . the tax commission in New York investigated him, and they took away his tax exempt status. And the Attorney General removed all of his privileges in the state of New York. So he has been made to look very bad. So rather than . . . there are some devotees who are saying that we should stand together in an alliance with them. But every time I am asked in the press or anything, I say the same thing again, "No. We have nothing to do with them. We have nothing . . ." Because I am afraid that we will be dragged down with them.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Yes.

Ādi-keśava: They are rascals, and eventually they are going to be exposed.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: They'll be finished for certain.

Prabhupāda: We want they should be finished. (laughs)

Ādi-keśava: Right. Sometimes Mukunda, for instance, was saying that we should make an alliance, and then we can have more strength. But I said: "No. When we do that . . . we are pure, we are genuine, and they are artificial."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We should keep our purity.

Ādi-keśava: So we are always to emphasize that . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: . . . that we are separate.

Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa's our strength. They have no strength.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa will save us. But the asylum in India with the government help, that will be very nice.

Ādi-keśava: So we'll investigate more in Delhi.

Prabhupāda: Immediately. First duty.

Ādi-keśava: Right.

Prabhupāda: When Gopāla is coming? He'll be able to . . .

Hari-śauri: Twenty-sixth or so, he's coming.

Ādi-keśava: Another question is . . .

Prabhupāda: We can take help from Indira Gandhi if we bring recommendation from the embassy.

Ādi-keśava: Right. Another thing is sometimes the intellectuals, they are backing us, and the very low-class people, they also like us very much because they feel . . . the black people feel, for instance, that we are being persecuted like they have been persecuted. But the middle-class people, they are the ones who are against us, and they are by far the greatest number.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: So I'm wondering what is the best way to influence them in our trial.

Prabhupāda: They will not. Because our all men are coming from middle class, so they are already against us because their sons have joined. How they can be in our favor?

Ādi-keśava: I don't see any way. (Prabhupāda chuckles) We go to the court and the judges always say . . .

Prabhupāda: But there are many fathers and mothers, they have . . . among them, they have appreciated our . . . so as far as possible, take. But because they are concerned, they have lost their children—they are against us. So you want that one . . . Tripurāri is sufficient?

Ādi-keśava: I think so. He is very good.

Prabhupāda: Or anyone else. You can suggest. You can take.

Ādi-keśava: If he is there, that's good.

Prabhupāda: That's nice.

Ādi-keśava: And Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja has told me you want me to carry the daṇḍa in the court also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If possible. But they will not allow. That is . . .

Ādi-keśava: Oh, no, they'll allow.

Prabhupāda: Allow?

Ādi-keśava: They will allow.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Then it's all right.

Ādi-keśava: I will go that way.

Prabhupāda: You can explain, daṇḍa means subjugation. So the three daṇḍas. Daṇḍa means subjugation. So kāya-manaḥ-vākya. "We have surrendered. We have voluntarily surrendered, subjugated ourselves, under God." Kāya-manaḥ-vākya. "Three daṇḍas are there, and one—myself. There are four daṇḍas within. So I am fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, or God, with my mind, body and words." This is the meaning. You can explain. This is symbolic reminder that "I have fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa with my body, mind and words, so I must serve Him."

Ādi-keśava: Sometimes in their propaganda these deprogrammers, they complain about our sannyāsīs the most. They say: "Because they are saying that everything in the material world is evil, so therefore they are the worst."

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is worst. Because I am spirit soul, I am now imprisoned with this material body. It is my unnatural state, and I am eternal, and because I have accepted this material body I have to undergo birth, death, old age and disease. So that is my effort, how to get out of this material body and remain in my original spiritual identity. That is our whole propaganda. We think material atmosphere is our imprisonment, suffering. Material body means suffering. Otherwise I am eternal, blissful, full with knowledge. That is my position. But because I have been impact . . . (aside) Again you have the same disease. Attention; you attend, draw there. Don't do that. Very bad habit. Immediately you sit down, you do it. You cannot check it. So actually this is our punishment. This is māyā. That example I have explained this morning, very nice verse, that the moon in the sky is reflected in the water, in hundreds of pots of water, and the wind is agitating the water, and the moon is also agitated—sometimes round, sometimes long, sometimes . . . the moon is fixed up, but the reflection in the pot making him different. Similarly, I am spirit soul, and I have been captured, or I have voluntarily surrendered to this material world, and it is being agitated by the mind, so I am taking this shape, that shape, that shape, this shape, eight million four hundred . . . that is my trouble. My nature is to be fixed up, always illuminating, but circumstantially I am being agitated by mind, and working with my mind, I am accepting this body, that body, this body, that. So this is very troublesome. Those who have no knowledge, no brain, they are satisfied with this material condition, agitated condition, and driven by the thinking, feeling, willing of the mind. This is very dangerous. We want to get out. This is psychology.

Ādi-keśava: That disturbs them the most, that we are condemning everything they believe.

Prabhupāda: It is condemned. My position is different. Why shall I die? The rascals, they agree to die. We do not agree to die. We want to come to our original position—no more death. This is our motto. Because we get information from the Bhagavad-gītā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20): I do not die on account of my material body mixed up . . . "Dust thou art, dust thou beest." This body is made of five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. And this is my gross body. The gross body is finished, but my mental, subtle body—mind, intelligence—that is not yet finished. That is carrying me to another body. Just like we have got practical experience: I am sitting here, you are sitting here. Mind carries me to New York, and I am now dreaming or thinking I am sitting in that room and talking with somebody. I have forgotten this, but . . . it is practical. Although I am sitting here, I have forgotten it, and I am working, thinking myself that I am in New York. Similarly, in dream my body is on the bed—I am thinking I am on the Himalayan top. So as it is possible even in this body, similarly, I get another body, gross body, then I forget this body. This is transmigration. I have explained it. This is the factual. Everyone can experience. I have got a period of remaining in this body. So as soon as this period is finished I get . . . I create another body and enter it. And because the period is not finished, although in dream I am getting another body and going to the Himalaya top, or I'm going to my New York apartment, still, I have to come back, because period is not finished. Simple thing. This is transmigration. Why I shall be put into this condition, because my original position is eternal? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). That we are teaching to the whole world, "Why you are suffering with this body? Get out of the body." This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is the best welfare activity to the human society, but because they are so dull, they cannot understand. Mūrkhāṇām upadeṣo hi prako . . . (Nīti Śāstra). If first-class rascal is advised, he thinks otherwise that, "He is bothering me." So what can be done? We have taken this daṇḍa, we have accepted service of Kṛṣṇa, and if He has ordered that, "You preach this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. You'll become My very dearest servant," He'll show them. Na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścit (BG 18.69). So we want to be very faithful to our master. So you may come against us; we don't mind. Jesus Christ was crucified. He didn't mind. So if you are unnecessarily prosecuting us, we don't mind. We must go on with our duty. We cannot give it up. That's all. It is not possible. What to . . . you are prosecuting? If you kill us, we shall not. We have taken this daṇḍa. This is our determination. You cannot stop us. That's it. "Because we know this is the only welfare activity to the human society. You make talk, madmen. We don't care for it. To be imprisoned with this material body—the greatest suffering . . . you are trying to mitigate suffering, temporary, this way and that, but you do not know how." That you can show from the Bhagavad . . . Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu . . . (BG 13.9). "This is real suffering. Why the eternal soul should be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease? We are seeing to this. You are thinking that 'If I can place myself in a very high skyscraper building and motorcar,' your business is finished. We are not so fool. We know that, 'Any moment, I shall be kicked out of the skyscraper building and motorcar by the laws of nature.' " That's a fact. But fools cannot understand. They think, "This is my permanent . . ." That is not permanent, but you are permanent. "Where is my permanent situation?"—we are seeking after that. So we are not so fools. We are taking that, "I am permanent. Why I should be encapped or entangled in this nonpermanent?" This is our philosophy.

Ādi-keśava: Because they can't think of anything beyond that . . .

Prabhupāda: Fools. "Therefore you have no brain. It requires to be washed. Your brain is filled up with stools, so we have to wash it. What can be done? Our, this business is washing. We cannot foolishly . . . we are sweeper on behalf of God, and we are engaged to wash your stool in the brain. That is our business." (laughter) You can say: "Yes, brainwashing, yes. Because you have got so much stool in your brain, we require to wash it." Tell like that. "We are engaged by Kṛṣṇa. Because you are satisfied, instead of having a real brain, you have got stool in the brain. You are so rascal, you are satisfied. But we are seeing it is so obnoxious, hampering your existence. Therefore it is my thankless duty to wash it. You should have thanked me, but you are so fool, you are condemning."

Ādi-keśava: Because they have stool in their brain . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: . . . they can't think that anybody else has anything better.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to wash the stool. "Yes, it is brainwash." Tell them that. This is the truth actually. "You do not know what is the aim of your life. You are claiming 'human being.' The dog does not know what is the aim of life. The dog is eating, sleeping, having sex and defense. Your whole education system is based on these four principles. Where is that university which is teaching more than this? You have got technological knowledge. Then what is the purpose? The purpose is how you'll get good bread. That's all. Eating. What more? Suppose you have become very good technologist, good title. But what is the aim? You get good salary and eating. That's all. Nothing more than that. Or sleeping, good apartment. Or sex, very nice girl." (aside) Come on. "What else you have got by this education? Nothing . . . nowhere it is taught that, 'You are eternal. You are suffering in this way.' Where is that education?"

Ādi-keśava: They don't have it.

Prabhupāda: No. "But you do not know. We get this information, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu . . . (BG 13.9). Eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). Therefore we are trying for that. But you are so dull, in spite of having so many . . . therefore the resultant action is you are producing hippies at the end. And how you can be satisfied anymore? They are disgusted with this eating, sleeping, mating business. Now you'll have only hippies." They're disgusted with this system of education, because it is not education at all. This is keeping them in ignorance. "Dog is lying on the street, and a man is lying on the hundred second floor. What is the result? Result is sleeping. Is that improvement? The dog is sleeping very peacefully; you are sleeping—'Oh, there is tiger! Tiger! Tiger! Save me! Save me.' Will that skyscraper building help you in your mental agitation? Is that education? Everyone is taking pill to sleep. You cannot sleep even peacefully, and you are claiming that you are educated." Give this defense. "Here the dog can sleep very peacefully. You cannot sleep even peacefully. This is the resultant action of your so-called education. You are proud of this education, this life, this civilization. You are so brainless, it requires to be washed. Therefore we say it is full of stool. We have come to wash it. That is our thankless duty." What can be done?

Ādi-keśava: And for the parents of these . . .

Prabhupāda: They . . . he's also another rascal. Dog's father. Dog.

Ādi-keśava: We are washing their brains because they have not washed the brains of their children. We can say that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is brainwashing, educating. (break) "Don't use sex. This is our aim. Remain brahmacārī; no bother. Is that bad? You will have your sex unrestricted and make your wife pregnant and kill him and eat him. You'll be implicated with so many sinful activities. And if I say, if you are so much afraid, 'Don't have sex,' what is the wrong there? And you are thinking, 'Oh? No sex? It is so brainwashing, mind-controlling.' But what is . . . you want that in a sinful way. We want in a pious way."

Hari-śauri: Yes. Same thing. Nobody wants the suffering.

Prabhupāda: That is the difference. "Your brain is so filled with stool that you do not know how much sinful activities you are . . . and how much you are becoming entangled in this material body. You are killing the child: you have to become his child again, or you have to become again a child, and you will be killed. And then you will enter another mother's body, you'll be again killed. As many child you have killed, you'll have to be killed so many times. You'll never see the light. In the womb, womb, womb, you'll be killed. So your brain is so filled up with stool, you cannot understand. This is your education. This is you education. We are trying to save you, that, 'You'll suffer so much. You've made the situation so complicated. Better remain a brahmacārī.' If there is a little trouble without sex enjoyment, take it just like itching. Itching trouble, if you don't itch, it will not increase. And if you itch, more and more it will increase.' That is advised. Kaṇḍūtivan manasijaṁ viṣaheta dhīraḥ (SB 7.9.45). One who knows, one who has got brain, 'All right, let me suffer little itching. I'll not itch it.' It will . . . this is intelligence. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). The suffering from the itching sensation by brahmacārī, that is recommended in our śāstra. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting some trouble. 'So I am feeling itching. I don't itch it. It is little troublesome, little. Never mind, I shall tolerate it.' "

Ādi-keśava: They don't understand that that is voluntary.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Ādi-keśava: They don't understand that that is voluntary.

Prabhupāda: Then voluntary . . .

Ādi-keśava: They think we are somehow telling . . .

Prabhupāda: No . . .

Ādi-keśava: . . . the devotees that, "You must," "You must not."

Prabhupāda: No, we . . . "It is voluntary. In our society we find so many brahmacārīs, so many gṛhasthas. And if you cannot stop this itching sensation, all right, marry one girl and live peacefully like a gentle . . . what is this nonsense, every three weeks divorce? We are not so rascal. If we accept one girl as my wife, I take full responsibility. Because I require a girl or woman, so this woman, that one. We are not so rascal that at home I have got woman, I am searching after another woman, another naked woman. We are not so madman. The sex pleasure is there at home, and I am seeking after sex pleasure in here, here, in the club, in the . . . what is that? Is that vagina is different? You are so fool. You require vagina, take one vagina. Be satisfied. And lick it. Why you are going here and there, here and there, here and there? Even old man is going to the nightclub to lick another vagina. Is that civilization? You are proud of your civilization." Tell them like that. "Licking of the vagina, different, obnoxious smell. You are less than the dog. The dog likes to smell the vagina. You are like that. What is business of going another vagina? You require vagina—take one and be satisfied. That is intelligence. First of all there is no need of vagina. But if you want, take one and be satisfied. Why you are searching after dog vagina, this vagina, that vagina, that vagina? Is that civilization?" Expose them like that, "Your brain is filled with so much stool, so we are washing it. What is the wrong there?"

Ādi-keśava: Actually, they all need brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: Yes, "Every one of you require, because your brain is filled up with stool. You have no brain. Brain is covered with stool." What they will answer?

Satsvarūpa: That "If I want to have a stool brain, it may be lamentable, but don't force me to be washed."

Prabhupāda: It is not forced. It is no . . .

Satsvarūpa: Let me remain in stool.

Prabhupāda: We are preaching. It does not mean that we are forcing. We are saying that, "Your brain is in stool. Wash it like this. If one agrees, he does it. Not that in our movement all world has joined. One who is intelligent, he has agreed, 'Yes.' I am not forcing. If I would have possessed that forcive power, what right you have got to bring me in the court? You are forcing me to stop this. You are forcing. Nobody can force, but you are forcing." You should take this argument and expose them at least in the court: licking of the vagina civilization, like dog. Yes, animals do that.

Ādi-keśava: I think the more strongly we preach in this way, that we don't try to give in and compromise . . .

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Ādi-keśava: . . . the more that everyone will hear about this issue . . .

Prabhupāda: We must expose them, that's all. This is our business. This is a good opportunity in the court, so that it will be published. People will know what is our philosophy. Licking of vagina civilization, this. Publish.

Ādi-keśava: All right.

Prabhupāda: What they have got anymore, this Western civilization?

Ādi-keśava: They say that they are all actually in despair. They don't see any hope in the future.

Prabhupāda: This is their position.

Hari-śauri: Their only hope in the future is that we'll eat trash, process trash and . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian: Radharaman temple Vrndavan mohan ekjan president eschen apni yodi ektu prasad nen. (From the Radha Ramana temple of Vrndavana, a great president has come. So if you kindly take some prasadam.) (break)

Prabhupāda: All, let us sit down here.

Hari-śauri: In the room?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Gaura-Nitāi. Is that argument all right?

Ādi-keśava: Yes. It's very strong.

Prabhupāda: Licking the vagina civilization?

Pṛthu-putra: Great.

Satsvarūpa: Very bold. Bold preaching.

Hari-śauri: No one's ever talked to them like that.

Prabhupāda: But this is a fact. The old man, seventy-five years old, he's going to lick up another vagina in the club. This is your Western civilization.

Ādi-keśava: Sometimes in New York . . . you know we live right next to Broadway. The temple is right next to Broadway. Sometimes in New York we see old, old men . . .

Prabhupāda: And in France it is very . . . in France you have got.

Pṛthu-putra: In France, yes. All the prostitution going on around the temple.

Ādi-keśava: You see even old, old men going to these clubs.

Hari-śauri: If you can still have sex when you're seventy-five, then you're a great man. Glorified.

Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their civilization. In Paris there are so many clubs. The old men, they first of all pay fifty dollars to enter into the club. Then he selects which vagina he will lick up. Then another payment. I know that. (aside) No, he can be asked to sit down there.

Hari-śauri: To sit in the room.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually this is the fact. But they are fools. They still like to lick up new vagina. Exactly dogs. We are restricting that, "Give up this business, licking of vagina," and they are seeking up to the point of death another vagina, another vagina, another . . . which is better? If we say that, "Give up this nonsense business," is that brainwash? And if it is brainwash, it is for good. What is this civilization, who is never satisfied? The same business is going on up to the point of death. Our civilization is, "All right, you are attached to vagina-licking. Do it up to fifty years. Then give it up." This is our civilization. "You are so much accustomed to the vagina-licking business—up to fifty years, so long you are young. Then give it . . . don't do it anymore." This is our civilization. And that also, after twenty-five years. For twenty-five years teach him, "It is no good business. Brahmacārī. Remain alone. You have got so much botheration." If he's still unable, "All right, take one wife. Be satisfied. Lick up one. And then, at the age of fifty years, give up." This is our . . . is that wrong?

Satsvarūpa: It's good.

Hari-śauri: It's great.

Prabhupāda: Because unless you give up this business of vagina-licking, you'll have to be entangled in this body. Either as a dog or as a hog, as a human being or as a demigod, as a tree, as an insect, it will go on. In this way plead. Let the people understand what we are preaching. Advance this philosophy, widely discussed. Then our success.

Hari-śauri: There's no question this will be widely discussed.

Prabhupāda: And . . . (someone enters) Basun, basun. Jaya! Basun. (Sit down, please sit down. Jaya! Please sit down.) (break) . . . smelling the aroma, such a nonsense.

Hari-śauri: As you say, just like dogs.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Hari-śauri: Just like the dogs.

Prabhupāda: Dogs and all animals, smelling the vagina. They think, "Here is real pleasure."

Hari-śauri: (beginning massage) There's no need to move around, Śrīla Prabhupāda . . . (break)

Prabhupāda: They're going for vagina and paying heavy toll, fifty dollars for entering the club, then two hundred dollars for drinking. You know this?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: This is their civilization, vagina civilization. In Florida they go, Miami, to spend money weekly, five hundred, five thousand dollars for naked dance. You know that?

Hari-śauri: Yes. So many places. Las Vegas. Every big city has . . .

Prabhupāda: And Brahmānanda told me sometimes they see on the stage a fatty woman having sex with an ass. This is exhibited in Mexico. And they enjoy it.

Hari-śauri: In Europe they have sex fairs.

Prabhupāda: Sex fair? What is that?

Hari-śauri: Well, you can go, and they have sideshows, men and women having sex on the stage at regular intervals, and they exhibit all kinds of contraptions that you can use to pervert your sex life even more.

Prabhupāda: What they will understand about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Hari-śauri: There's not very much hope for them.

Prabhupāda: Help is for everyone, but if they remain stubborn to their own way of life, then it is not possible. They have to wash the brain. Otherwise it is possible.

Hari-śauri: You explain in the Bhāgavatam that everything actually is just an extension of the sex desire.

Prabhupāda: That's it.

Hari-śauri: Their whole big cities and so much industry . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: . . . and work is just simply . . .

Prabhupāda: For the central point—vagina. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). The other day . . . maithunyam agāram ajñaḥ vindati tāpān (SB 5.5.7).

Hari-śauri: Ṛṣabhadeva's instructions. (end)