770508 - Conversation C - Hrishikesh

Conversations by Date, 1977

His Divine Grace
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

770508R3-HRISHIKESH - May 08, 1977 - 71:04 Minutes

Prabhupāda: Nobody knows God. The whole Christian world, they do not know what is God. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ (BG 7.24). And they are these ajānantaḥ, must fall down. Taranti te. The very word is "falldown." Without any understanding of God, religion means falldown. Everyone has fallen down. So many religions crying out. Now these Ārya-samājīs . . .

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now it's not very big.

Prabhupāda: Who cares for them? For some time they can do, jumping. It will not stay. But the Vaiṣṇava religion is going on. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). As many . . . so we may take it since the time of Kṛṣṇa, five thousand years, this has been going on, śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, Deity worship, going on.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I saw in Hrishikesh. They have . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The dictaphone fell over.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They have a lot of big statues displaying Kṛṣṇa's pastimes, dioramas. I just saw.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Trivikrama: Here. So many places along the way. From the very birth, then all the activities, Aghāsura demon, all of them, all of them.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even though it's Māyāvādī, still, they are displaying Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Gītā ślokas are on the walls everywhere.

Trivikrama: Yes. It seems they can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Trivikrama: They can't get away from Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they cannot. They can cheat, but with Gītā. They are like Gandhi. He cheated with a Gītā, in the name of Gītā. Even they cannot cheat with Gītā. Bhaja . . . what is that, Gītā-pravacana?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, Gītā-pravacana.

Prabhupāda: That is another cheating.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You told them in that meeting we had in Warda. You were very bold. You said: "Unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa and understand Kṛṣṇa, it's all useless." There is one very great yogic teacher in India like Maharishi Yogi called Brahmachari Virendra or something like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dhirendra Brahma . . . Prabhupāda was reading about him this morning in the newspaper.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you were? Oh, with that case . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has been following.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That Dhirendra Brahmachari.

Trivikrama: Who was caught with the woman.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The so-called yogīs . . .

Prabhupāda: All these yogīs . . . they get cheap food, cheap women. That's all. And debauched women, in Hindu society, they cannot mix with other men, take advantage of these yogīs, svāmīs and cheaters. Just becoming so-called devotees, they have sex attraction. From both sides. Sex . . . sex impulse is so strong that in different ways it should be taken, as a yogī, as a svāmī, as a gṛhastha, as a debauch, as a loafer. All . . . the central point is sex. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukham (SB 7.9.45). These asses . . .

Trivikrama: Working so hard.

Prabhupāda: Working so hard and then sex, and the female kicks on the face. They enjoy, "Ah." You have seen this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vṛndāvana I used to watch them.

Prabhupāda: "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" But still, he goes. Bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). It begins with kicking. The cats also, they (makes cat noise) "Eeeyow!" They have come for sex, but the female cat will show some prestige and . . . then sex. If she does not like, why she has come? (laughter) But they show some prestigious position. Then (makes cat noise) "Eeyenh!" This is the central point of material happiness. Therefore we cannot allow within our temples now such sex. That is not possible. We are condemning the sex life, and we cannot accommodate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That boy who was speaking to you that evening quoted that Kṛṣṇa says, kāmo 'smi bhāratarṣabha (BG 7.11).

Prabhupāda: Kāmo 'smi, that should be. That kāma is not that, that whenever they like, have sex and then go away. That is his kāma. Once you have sex life, and the woman first of all debauches like . . . you have to make it public, that "I am going to have garbhādhāna-saṁskāra." It is not a secret thing. It is a ceremony. And then, when she is pregnant, no more sex. No more sex means so long the child is there, ten months, and unless the child is grown up at least six months, no sex. That means once you have sex and then abstain for sixteen months. You know what is that dharma? So who is such a foolish man that for once having sex and then abstaining . . .? Therefore those who could not abstain, they used to keep many wives.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean, what is the purpose of . . . a man is foolish, because he's attracted by sex life, but even in marriage . . .

Prabhupāda: It is foolish, undoubtedly, but there is some concession. But this concession is so restriction that he'll become intelligent, that "What is the use of this concession?" Loke vyavāyāmiṣa-madya-sevā nityā hi jantoḥ (SB 11.5.11). It is not encouragement. The so much restriction means to convince him indirectly that, "This is nonsense. Better you give it up." Otherwise why restriction? In other things . . . suppose eating bhagavat-prasādam. There is no such restriction . . .

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Once every six . . .

Prabhupāda: . . . that, "Once you eat, and then do not eat for sixteen months." Is there any such restriction? This is encouraged.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Chanting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But as soon as there is restriction, that means "Don't do it." Otherwise naturally they have got sex desire. What is the use of giving śāstric injunction? That means to control him. The meat-eating . . . so everyone has got tendency to eat meat, but why śāstra should agree? Restriction means stop. The government's opening liquor shop—so much restriction in a heavy duty. The government charges excise duty. The liquor is produced, utmost, one rupee eight annas, per gallon. This I know. I know. And government charges excise duty, sixty rupees. So it becomes sixty-one rupees spoiled. Then they have got to make profit. Huge profit government . . . they haven't got to do anything. The liquor manufacturer, he has to maintain the establishment, and everything he has to do. But when the actual liquor comes, it is there. This is the working system. The excise inspector is there. So unless the . . . when he takes liquor out of stock, that excise inspector shall come. He has his own key, just like bank, such custody. So in this way . . . and you have to pay duty first. Suppose stock is there, liquor, hundred gallons, say, thousand gallons. If you want to take ten gallons, so the excise inspector will see whether you have paid duty for hundred gallons. Then you'll be allowed to. So government, for nothing, has . . . they make huge profit. This is Kali-yuga government. They think that to condone these are very common practice. "Let them be drunk. Let them drink." They encourage them. And government means big ministers, secretaries, they get the profit and divide amongst themselves. So who cares for public? Similarly cloth. What is the cost of one . . .? One rupee per pound. But if you weigh one cloth, what is the weight? Not even one pound. And they charge twenty rupees.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Duty.

Prabhupāda: Duty, profit, so on, so on. And all these big, big millionaires, they are extracting money from the poor like that, and when they have got money, they spend little for daridra-nārāyaṇa. "Oh, very big man." And our program? Why you making daridra? Daridra? Our policy is this, that "Why should you make him daridra?" First of all make him daridra, and then take credit—"daridra-nārāyaṇa"? Just see how cheating is going on. But we are projecting this farm project: let them remain in their own home, produce their own food only and cloth, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our policy. Our policy means Kṛṣṇa's policy. Let them have sufficiently to eat, and they'll be all satisfied. If the mind is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then they don't want anything, either liquor or meat or anything. No. This is the advantage. And this is not social . . . what is that? That first of all drag him from the innocent life of village and engage him in the factory in the hope of getting more money, and then he's habituated to liquor. When he cannot pay, they purchase this poison and die.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like in Bombay.

Prabhupāda: Is that progress like that? Keep them daridra forever and take credit—"daridra-nārāyaṇa." Just see. Simply bluffing and cheating.

Trivikrama: Misdirected society. Misdirected. So how will we change?

Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa con . . . (break)

Indian man (1): Mumbai me tha humlog aur mandir bhi dekha udhar... wahan mandir ke pas hi tha. lekin sharir ke is avastha me bhi brhman karna nahi chodte hain. sharir ke is avastha me bhi chalte rehte hain. (We were in Mumbai and we saw the temple there also. We were near the temple. But in this bodily condition, you have not given up traveling. In this bodily condition it is going on.) (break)

Prabhupāda: Humko koi problem nahi hai. humlog ko . . . (I have no problem. for us . . .) I think I speak in English. Otherwise they will not understand. The first thing is that, "I am not this body." This is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And if you do not understand the first instruction, then where is the use of going ahead? This is the defect. Bhagavān said:

aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ

prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase

gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca

nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ

(BG 2.11)

"My dear Arjuna, you are lamenting for your family and bodily relationships. But this is not the subject matter for learned persons. And you are talking just like a learned man, 'What will happen if these, my brothers' wives become widows and this and that?' " That means in a gentlemanly way He said that, "You are talking like a nonsense, because you have no real subject matter." Agatāsūṁś ca. So far this body is concerned, either living or dead, it is a not a subject matter of learned talk. It is a lump of matter. And what is life? Then He said that:

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

Life is within this body—the soul. And because the soul is there, therefore a baby is becoming child, a child is becoming a boy, a boy is becoming young man, young man becoming old man, and the old man, when he passes, he gets another body. Very simple thing. As you are changing your body . . . now you're changing this body—you are there actually—so you accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati: "Those who are sober, intelligent, they are not disturbed."

So if this is the fact, dehāntara-prāpti . . . after this body you have to accept another body. If you do not know what kind of body you are going to accept . . . there is no question of acceptance. You will be forced to accept. It is not that your choice. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). You have to accept one body according to your karma. If you have behaved like a human being, you can get the body of a human being. If you have behaved like a dog, you'll get the body of a dog. And if you have behaved like demigod, you'll get.

ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā

madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ

jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā

adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ

(BG 14.18)

This is going on. Therefore this life is preparation for the next life. These are simple truth. But people are in ignorance. They do not know anything. And they're keeping them in ignorance and bluffing them in so many ways. The whole duty, I am going . . . if I am going to accept another body, then where is the question of my nationalism? If I am eternal . . . na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), na jāyate na mriyate vā. If I do not take my birth, if I do not die, and na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, and I'll have to accept another body, then, so long I have got this body, I may be big politician, big philanthropist, but next life, if I am going to be dog, then where is the value of this prime ministership, big, big . . .? And where is my nation? Where is my country? Where is my family?

So things are going on in ignorance. And they are kept in ignorance. And big, big worship, your . . . nānuśocanti. This is going on. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for reforming all these nonsense activities. This is sum and . . . everyone's kept in ignorance, and being frustrated, they want to make it zero. Where is zero? Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). There is no question of zero. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). But the rascal are thinking, "Make it zero," in gross disappointment. But there is life. Just hope for a blissful life, for eternal life. And that is really we want to do. And you want to make it zero? Actually it is not zero. You do not know your ignorance. So this rascaldom is going on, and there are many supporters. What can be done? We are trying to reform the society.

Indian man (1): What is the nature of the jīvātmā?

Prabhupāda: Jīva is explained. You do not know? You have not read Bhagavad-gītā?

Indian man (1): Hmm, hmm. But what . . .?

Prabhupāda: Then say. You should say. You do not know?

Indian man (1): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: Then tell me what is that.

Indian man (1): Mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke (BG 15.7).

Prabhupāda: That's all, part and parcel of God. (aside) So why these people are outside? The jīva is a small sample of God. That example I was giving you yesterday, that you take a big brick, and you just strike it on the floor. There will be so many fragments. (aside) Why you are busy now? Come here. finish. Then you can leave. Why you are disturbing now? Keep it behind this post. You can leave it. Yes. So when the brick is broken, some parts of the . . . bigger, some smaller. And at last, the dust. So all of them are the parts and parcels.

Indian man (1): The same thing.

Prabhupāda: Same thing. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). So jīva is also Brahman. It is same thing, but very small particle. That's all. You can understand the nature of God by studying the nature of jīva. It does not take much hard . . . He said, mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke. Manaḥ . . . because now . . . he says, manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). "So why he's struggling? Because he's depending on the mind and the senses. He's not depending upon Me." They are creating mental creation, concoction, and acting sensually. Therefore the normal condition . . . just like this finger is part and parcel of my body, so it is the duty of the finger to act according to my desire. I ask the finger, "Please come here. I have some itchy feeling." If it cannot, then it is diseased. Similarly, the duty of the jīva is to serve Kṛṣṇa. If he cannot, then he's diseased. And if you want to continue in diseased condition, that is your obstinacy. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63): "Whatever you like, you do." Kṛṣṇa says that, "Now that I have spoken to you everything, now whatever you like, you do." And because Arjuna understood Him totally, he said, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). This is Gītā's verse. "I'll do whatever You say." That is all. And He says also, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam . . . (BG 18.66). So if you do that, then your life is perfect. If you don't do that, then rot. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa (BG 9.3): "One who does not hear Me and what I am speaking, this Bhagavad-gītā—he has no faith—then he does not get Me." Then what is the result if one does not . . .? No, nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani: "Then he returns back again in the cycle of birth and death—sometimes cat, sometimes demigod, sometimes this . . ." Go on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). Become something, remain for some time. Then again you become something else and jump like dog: "I belong to his nation. I belong to this community. I belong . . ." Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). He remains animal, and another big animal becomes his leader. This is going on. (laughter)

Indian man (1): This is something that only Bhagavad-gītā means.

Prabhupāda: You cannot make it zero. He's part and parcel of God. Because God is fact, then he is also fact. How can you make it zero? But out of frustration, these persons, they are trying to make it zero. This is going on. Zero means complete forgetfulness. Just like the tree is zero, but it is life. But he has become so dull that if you cut it, he cannot protest. That kind of zero. Actually it is not zero; it is condition of life.

Indian man (1): Surrender is not zero.

Prabhupāda: Why surrender is zero?

Indian man (1): No, surrender is not zero.

Prabhupāda: No. Surrender means "God is there, I am there. We reciprocate."

Indian man (1): Surrender is a state of complete submission to God.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Surrender is perfection. Just like I have given the example: Finger is the part and parcel. If it works, then it is normal condition. If it does not work, then he's diseased. That is explained by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (CC Madhya 20.108). You understand Bengali?

Indian man (1): Hmm.

Prabhupāda: This is the normal condition, that he fully surrenders and acts according to the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. This is surrender. He says also, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65)—four things. It doesn't require any . . . it is very easy. If you like, you can think of Kṛṣṇa always—man-manāḥ. And unless you love Kṛṣṇa, how you'll think of Him? Mad-bhaktaḥ. And bhakta will worship—mad-yājī. And worshiping means offering obeisances—māṁ namaskuru. These four things can do, any . . . even a child can do. But they'll manufacture, and ultimately come to the conclusion: void, finished. So our request is that life is not zero. It is a fact. Don't spoil it. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and become perfect. This is our request. And we have no difficulty. The authority is there, Bhagavad-gītā. We haven't got to manufacture anything, some artificial rules. The standard of knowledge is there. What is the difficulty? Why should you manufacture knowledge? They are imperfect. Whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect.

Indian man (1): There is no difficulty.

Prabhupāda: So take the perfect knowledge. Follow it. You become perfect. Perfection means . . . that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Real misery is that I am eternal . . . as God is eternal, I am also eternal. So now I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, due to this physical body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9): "You are trying to mitigate all kinds of sufferings. So why don't you see the real suffering is here, janma." How to stop this repetition of birth—that is your real problem. But they have made problems—so-called politics, philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this, that, that, so many. But real problem remains, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. This is the defect. They won't take what is the problem, how to solve it. Everything is in oblivion, ignorance. What can be done? Although there is knowledge, there is light, there is practical example, they won't take it. What can be done? So we shall request you all, please don't waste your time in this way, that way, and ultimately come to the conclusion, zero. Take instruction of Bhagavad-gītā in all regards and be happy. It is not difficult. Practical examples are there. Before me, ten years before, whole world, foreigners, there was not a single Kṛṣṇa conscious. Whole history. Now you'll find thousands. Why? I have not manufactured . . . (indistinct) . . . giving them. I have given them Kṛṣṇa. That's all.

Indian man (1): It is really marvelous, how the movement has spread.

Prabhupāda: This is marvelous. You give the real thing, and it will act. If you give false things, naṣṭa, so superficially it is (Sanskrit), but if it is spoiled, it will create disease. Our leaders, our politicians, our svāmīs and yogīs, they have spoiled Bhagavad-gītā by misinterpretation. Then what benefit he'll derive? They are spoiling, and they are followers. Now whatever is done is done. You can reform it and again it will be all right. (aside) Now call, if there is any question.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does anyone have any questions they would like to ask Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Indian man (2): Can one be a householder, I mean, with his normal worldly life, and at the same time be a . . .

Prabhupāda: First of all, what do you mean by householder?

Indian man (2): I mean continue the normal occupation of one's . . .

Prabhupāda: Say me. Explain what is householder.

Indian man (2): Looking after one's business, after one's family . . .

Prabhupāda: So that is . . . dog is also doing that business.

Indian man (2): Pardon?

Prabhupāda: Dog is also doing that. Is he householder? Taking care of children, the dog is also doing that. So is he householder? First of all, you do not know what is meant by householder. Taking care of children, that is done by the birds. In the nest the small kiddies are there, and they are bringing food and pushing in the mouth, (makes bird noise) "Tee, tee, tee, tee, tee." (laughter) Are they householder? And if you think they are householder, you are also householder like the dogs and birds. You do not know what is householder. Therefore you have to consult śāstra, who is a householder. Śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum (SB 5.5.18): "You should not become a father and mother unless you take the responsibility for children that no more birth." Because this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are so able father and mother that you can stop this miserable condition of your children, then you become householder. That is householder. Otherwise what is the use of becoming a householder like dogs and cats? There is no use. There are so many cats and dogs. What is use of increasing? Now government is forcing: "Do not produce cats and dogs. Take these inhibitions." Because the whole world is fed up with these cats and dogs householders. Real householder is, śāstra says, "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot protect your children . . ." Samupeta-mṛtyum. And they are required. If you can do that, then you are welcome. You can produce hundreds of children. But you cannot protect yourself; how you'll be able to protect your children? All bogus. Householder is allowed, as brahmacārī-āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. It is not meant like that . . . Big, big personality were householder. Lord Rāmacandra was householder. Arjuna was householder. Prahlāda Mahārāja was a householder. Janaka Mahārāja was householder. But they were not cats and dogs. So be householder. You do the duty of real householder. Don't become cats and dogs. Then where is human civili . . .? What is the distinction between cats and dogs and human civilization if you do the same thing? Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. Then you are huma . . . not even human being. What is the question of householder? Be householder as it is in the civilized codes, human history, they are . . . otherwise refrain. Householder does not mean to satisfy the, what is called, itching sensation of the genitals. That is not householder. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). To satisfy the itching sensation, that is not householder. Here is householder. Protect your children from death. Can you do that? That kind of householder, at least. The trees on the street, everywhere . . . there is no question of becoming householder. The whole Bhagavad-gītā . . . Arjuna, he was householder. He was politician. So he did not give up anything. Before his hearing Bhagavad-gītā he was the same, a large family, and he was fighting for some material interests. And after hearing Bhagavad-gītā he remained the same, not that he gave up fighting and went to the forest. These things are not required. But he changed his consciousness—kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). And that is required. You remain in any condition of life, but follow the instruction of Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Are there any other questions?

Young man (3): Yes. If we accept that our senses and our mind and our body are not enough to live a life with . . .

Prabhupāda: Can't hear.

Young man (3): . . . so then how are we to perceive God? With what bodily platform do we perceive . . .?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question is that if we accept that the senses, the body and the mind are not perfect, they're limited, then with what means are we to perceive God?

Prabhupāda: You perceive according to the instruction of Gītā. Just like a child. He does not know how to use the senses. He is going to touch fire or something dangerous, to catch a snake. It is the duty of the father, "No, my dear child, don't do that. It is dangerous." You have to follow him. If you become "Self"—"I am self alone"—then bother yourself. Our Vedic injunction is not "Self." Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to reform yourself, you must go to a proper guru, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham not, "I am self. All right."

Young man (4): Swāmījī, if a man admits or comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaos . . .

Prabhupāda: Chaos?

Young man (4): In seeking to bring order into the chaos . . .

Prabhupāda: Mind's business is . . .

Young man (4): In seeking to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural path open before him? Won't he naturally come to spiritual sādhana?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the question?

Young man (4): I say, if a man sits down and admits to himself that his mind is chaotic, in trying to bring order to this chaos, won't his natural spiritual path open before him, when he sets about purifying his mind?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said, if someone is sitting down and the mind is very chaotic, and, he says, is there not something inherent within the living being that automatically that chaos will go away of its own accord?

Young man (4): No, no, no, that's not what I said.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It isn't?

Young man (4): No, it's not what I said. What I said was, when finally man comes to the conclusion that his mind is chaotic—there is no order—when he admits this to himself and he looks to find a way to purify his mind, will not the spiritual sādhana open up naturally?

Indian man (1): Without a guru.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the point I'm making. I mean that's something within himself.

Prabhupāda: Without a guru? That is not possible.

Young man (4): Hmm?

Prabhupāda: That is not possible.

Young man (4): It is not possible?

Prabhupāda: Just like if you are mad—the mind is not in order—you go to a physician to treat you. That is the way. If your mind is not in order, what do you do? You go to a psychiatrist, you go to an expert for treatment.

Young man (4): No, no, this is . . . no.

Prabhupāda: That is the way. If you do not go, then you'll become mad.

Young man (4): No, no, no.

Prabhupāda: What is that, "No, no, no"? You said that your mind is in chaotic condition.

Young man (4): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you have to treat it.

Young man (4): Yes, but not necessarily through a psychiatrist. I mean, it's a matter of admitting to oneself that there is an impurity . . .

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (2): If I know that in my own mind my mind is chaotic . . .

Prabhupāda: Then if you know, then where is chaotic condition? This is nonsense.

Young man (4): Nonsense?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you know, then where is chaotic condition?

Indian man (1): If you know that your mind is in a chaotic condition, your mind is not in a chaotic condition.

Young man (4): This is not what I'm saying. I say . . .

Prabhupāda: So what you say? We don't hear.

Young man (4): What I'm saying is one is admitting to oneself that their mind is not pure . . .

Prabhupāda: That means chaotic condition.

Young man (4): When one admits to oneself that their mind . . .

Prabhupāda: That means a . . . (indistinct) . . . he is in chaotic condition. A madman—he admits or not, he's a madman.

Young man (4): I don't understand . . .

Prabhupāda: You cannot understand—because you are madman. That's all.

Indian woman (5): Swāmījī, if you understand the message of Gītā, that Kṛṣṇa says, recommends even-mindedness and . . .

Prabhupāda: Even . . .?

Indian man (1): Samatā.

Indian woman (5): And do not grieve because this body is meant for death. Now, I think also . . .

Prabhupāda: So that requires training.

Indian woman (5): Then also compassion will come in, yeah?

Prabhupāda: Everything requires training.

Indian woman (5): But if you are compassionate, you feel the pain. Then how does that go with even-mindedness?

Prabhupāda: Compassion . . . that is little advanced. That's all. But that is not the stage of perfection. That animal has also, compassion. That is not a very big thing.

Indian man (1): You mean from human point of view.

Indian woman (5): No.

Indian man (1): Not to work in doubt.

Indian woman (5): Can the human heart feel compassion?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Indian woman (5): The human heart cannot take to compassion?

Prabhupāda: There is compassion. It is revived. That's all. All the good qualities are there, because he's part and parcel of God. But in ignorance they are now covered. You have to discover. Just like Brahman. You are Brahman by nature, but you are thinking, "I am this . . ." "I am American," "I am Indian." And that is your disease. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am gṛhastha," "I am sannyāsī," that is your disease, more or less. But actually you are Brahman because you are part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman. So when you actually realize yourself—brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54)—no problems. All problem finished. So that is required.

Indian man (1): In that state also, there will be compassion.

Prabhupāda: There is no question of compassion. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. You are in a normal stage. Śocati. Compassion is also śocati: "Oh, this man is poor. I'll help him." That is śocati. That brahma-bhūtaḥ, na śocati na kāṅkṣati. That is really . . . where is compassion? He has taken this material body. He has to suffer. What is, your compassion will help him?

Indian woman (5): But it seems to come . . .

Prabhupāda: That first of all you understand. You have to die. If I think, "Oh, you should not die," so what my, this compassion will help you? You have to die. Then what is the use of this compassion? If you give him something that he will not die, that is real compassion. Suppose if there is a boil here, I am suffering, and you come, "Oh, you are suffering?" is that compassion?

Indian woman (5): But you feel a pain also in your . . .

Prabhupāda: You feel, but what is the meaning of that feeling? You cannot do anything.

Indian woman (5): No. It is not possible.

Prabhupāda: So this kind of compassion also, it is all useless. It is wasted.

Young man (6): I have . . . in my life I've seen some people . . . I haven't seen them all. I have read books, and I've met people that, that, you know, people that don't know, some know more than others. And what I've seen is that there is always a point in everybody's mind and everybody's being where they draw the line between madness and sanity, between right and wrong, and the question in my mind is: Who makes the rules, and where do the rules come from? Because, I know, any society . . . for instance, in India there are the Indian scriptures, the Bhagavad-gītā and so on, and this is the basis of all Indian society. In the West there is the Christian scriptures, the Jewish scriptures. And they all have rules. They all have rules right down to the daily conduct of people, what they're supposed to eat, and they don't agree on what people are supposed to eat. Now, does that make one person who does not follow one set of rules wrong by another set of rules?

Prabhupāda: No, first principle is that you have to follow the rules.

Young man (6): What rules?

Prabhupāda: That is everywhere.

Young man (6): Which rules are for me?

Prabhupāda: That is . . .

Young man (6): That is the point.

Prabhupāda: That is next. First of all, as you say, in Christian there is rules, there are Muhammadans' rules, there are Hindu rules. Rules are there. Now you have to select which rules you shall follow. That will depend on your dress. But rules you have to follow. That is everywhere. If you think that, "There are so many rules. I won't follow," then you are lost.

Indian man (1): Follow some rules.

Young man (6): There are some rules, I mean . . .

Prabhupāda: Everywhere.

Young man (6): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you have to follow rules. Now it is up to you, which rule you shall follow.

Young man (6): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is your choice. That requires brain.

Young man (6): My choice is not to judge anybody, good or bad, or mad or insane.

Prabhupāda: Then you are lost.

Young man (6): Only 'cause I know my own sanity.

Prabhupāda: Then that means you make your own rule. You have to follow rules. But you make your own rules.

Young man (6): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you have to follow the rules. That is a fact. Either your own rules or Christian rules or Muslim rules or Hindu rules, you have to follow rules. That's a fact. Now, that I have already told. Now make your own choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). If you think your rules will solve this problem . . . real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). If you think that following your rules will solve this problem, then you follow.

Young man (6): Many people are bound by rules.

Prabhupāda: It is not the question of "many people." We are talking of philosophy. (break) And we shall say: "Follow the rules laid down by Kṛṣṇa." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, if you like, you do. Or you live to your own rules. Take that. We shall advise to follow the rules of Kṛṣṇa. And practically you see. By following the rules of Kṛṣṇa we have created Vaiṣṇavas in whole world, hundreds and thousands. Ask their past history and now, how they have changed. Example is better than precept, which rule is better. Actually this is the fact. We are under the rules of nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Everything is acting under the rules of material nature. Just like you are young man. Now, you cannot say: "I'll not become old man." Can you? And you are forced by the rules of nature. Can you deny it?

Young man (3): No. In one way . . .

Prabhupāda: So you accept or not accept, you have to follow the rules of material nature.

Young man (3): I admit I can't . . .

Prabhupāda: Then you are under the rules of material nature. You have to admit.

Young man (3): Ah, but in spiritual life . . .

Prabhupāda: Why do you jump over spiritual life? First of all try to understand your material nature, what you are at the present moment, that you are under the rules of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). That you cannot avoid. So what is the use of making your own rules?

Young man (3): Ah, but we're not understanding the rules of nature.

Prabhupāda: No, that understanding . . . first of all you have to understand that you are under the rules of material nature, and you accept or not accept, you'll be forced by nature.

Young man (3): Ah, this is understood.

Prabhupāda: That understanding . . . then it will be all right. And what is the use of your own rules? If you are forced to accept the rules of material nature, then what is the use of foolish rules? You have to accept. When material nature rules, you must die. You cannot avoid it. You must die. You must change body. You must be. So what is the use of your rules? You can manufacture as a madman. You are completely forced to accept the material nature.

Young man (6): What are the rules of the material nature? Again, from experience, I know that one year I couldn't do something, and then, with a certain amount of practice, the next year I could. And so the rule has changed. It no longer is out of my grasp.

Prabhupāda: Not changed. You feel that.

Young man (6): But my ability to work . . .

Prabhupāda: Your ability to work is destined. Why don't you understand this? What you are? Why you are thinking yourself very big? That is your nonsense. You are under the rules of material nature. You'll be forced. That is real understanding that, "I don't want this. Why material nature forces me?" That is real knowledge. "Why? Why I am under the material rules?" Then knowledge begins.

Young man (3): Ah, this is understood, but . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you think stick to your own rules, that "I don't care for your material rules," who cares for you?

Young man (3): But one must train themselves . . .

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is knowledge. You meditate upon this, that "I do not want to die. Why there is death?"

Young man (6): "I don't want . . ."?

Indian man (1): "Why is there death? I am forced to die."

Young man (3): I'm not thinking this. I'm thinking he's not . . . (indistinct) . . . properly.

Prabhupāda: So the real problem is birth, death, old age and disease, and by following any rules, if you can stop this problem, then you are successful. It doesn't matter what is your brand of rules, but the problem is there. And we are suggesting that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām . . . if you want to avoid the rules of material nature, then you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. We are suggesting. If you like, you can take it. But you are under the rules of material nature. That you cannot say, "No." (aside) Now give them prasādam.

Trivikrama: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you come tomorrow again at five o'clock, every day there'll be darśana.

Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much for your coming. Jaya. Jaya. Five to six? (end)